Who the fuck are they kidding . . . . ?

[Stinky The Clown]

I heard on the radio today that Harry and the Senate Dems wanna pass an extension of the FICA tax holiday and pay for it with a 3% hike on taxes on wages over a million bucks.

The repubicans oppose this, saying such a tax hike will affect 1/3 of small businesses, who they say are the real job creators.

Think about that.

Taxes on personal incomes over one MILLION dollars are enjoyed by one third of small business owners.

Do YOU know a small business owner?

I do. In fact, I am one.

Now . . . . do YOU know a small business owner who earns over one MILLION dollars a year in personal income off his small business? Man, if you do, that's one hell of a successful small business. Or to put it another way, if the owner is making a million a year, his ain't no small business in the **perceived** sense of the word. And if his business fits the legal definition of a small business, then the law needs to be changed.

Once again, the repubicans, in their effort to deceive, conflate small business *owners* with small business.

This Big Lie has been told, unchanged, for a looooong time. And plenty of people buy into it.

[robinlynne]

1. agreed. I think they define small business as having less than 500 employees.

or something along those lines.

[Betsy Ross]

3. I think small business is defined by the number of owners.

Corporations with publicly traded stock cannot be a small business. Two brothers that own an empire of businesses around the country and world are small business owners.

[Pacifist Patriot]

24. Ding, ding, we have a winner.

[valerief]

51. That's right. No matter how MASSIVE the enterprise, if it's privately held, it's small business. nt

[JackRiddler]

62. So to jump to the obvious: The Koch brothers are small business owners?

[valerief]

80. Yes. nt

[krispos42]

9. The SBA does. The rank-and-file doesn't.

they've magically redefined it (without telling anybody) that they consider a "small business" to have less than, I think, 100 owners.


So a "small business" includes Koch Industries, and I believe every single baseball, football, hockey, and basketball team except for the Green Bay Packers.

[rfranklin]

31. SBA has various definitions depending on type of business...

What is SBA's definition of a small business concern?



SBA defines a small business concern as one that is independently owned and operated, is organized for profit, and is not dominant in its field. Depending on the industry, size standard eligibility is based on the average number of employees for the preceding twelve months or on sales volume averaged over a three-year period. Examples of SBA general size standards include the following:
• Manufacturing: Maximum number of employees may range from 500 to 1500, depending on the type of product manufactured;
• Wholesaling: Maximum number of employees may range from 100 to 500 depending on the particular product being provided;
• Services: Annual receipts may not exceed $2.5 to $21.5 million, depending on the particular service being provided;
• Retailing: Annual receipts may not exceed $5.0 to $21.0 million, depending on the particular product being provided;
• General and Heavy Construction: General construction annual receipts may not exceed $13.5 to $17 million, depending on the type of construction;
• Special Trade Construction: Annual receipts may not exceed $7 million; and
• Agriculture: Annual receipts may not exceed $0.5 to $9.0 million, depending on the agricultural product.
http://www.sba.gov/content/what-sbas-definition-small-business-concern

[krispos42]

33. Right, But when Repubes talk about "small-business tax cuts", for example...

... they are talking about the number of owners.

Understand that they talk about "small businesses" while waving around AEI and USCoC reports that define (in the small print) that they are definin "small business" by number of owners, NOT by employees.

Rachel Maddow had a report on this a few months ago. Made me want to vomit.

[valerief]

56. All that 'depending on' allows for loopholes. I wonder if Congress uses the SBA's definition of

a small business.

[tclambert]

38. Just tell them "There are no small business owners who make over $1 million a year."

How can such a tax affect 1/3 of small business owners when none of them makes a million a year? If they do make over a million a year, they're are not "small" business owners.

Demand to use your own definition. Accuse them of using some perverse definition of "small" business that would include the Koch brothers or a guy who owns a chain of restaurants. (Each of his hundreds of restaurants is a small business, so he is a small business owner, hundreds of times over.)

[Angry Dragon]

2. Better yet ask them the definition of a small business owner.

I have and they will tell you that everyone has a different definition
and then I told them if that was the case how would anyone know what they were talking about
and they had no answer for that.

[tclambert]

39. Don't ask. Tell them they've got it wrong and define it for them.

And they do, of course. They talk about small businesses creating most of the new jobs. That's right by one definition of small business. But in the next sentence they will change how they define small business and say something they will claim is true based on that different definition.

[Charlemagne]

44. Here is what I was told

verbatim "You want the definition of a small business owner? the small business owner is teh backbone of America. The small business owner is who creates jobs in this country. The small business owner are the people that work ahrd, pay taxes, and make this country waht it is."

Said with enough gusto to make William Jennings Bryan blush. Fucking idiots. Cant win on ideas so they win by playing up field-of-dreams apple pie and patriotism.

[virgogal]

4. I'm speechless. Think I'll go open a shoe repair shop. :-)

[RagAss]

12. ...and I'll sell shoelaces door to door.

[elehhhhna]

5. half of all "Small biz owners" are SOLEPROPRIETORS.

think Newt Blingrich, Inc.

Ann Coulter Inc.

truefact, not well disseminated

[robinlynne]

13. and most of us are only one person all told.

[Fumesucker]

20. Sole proprietor does not necessarily mean no employees..

It's risky to have employees as a sole proprietor but there's nothing inherent in that status that says you can't have employees.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sole_proprietorship

[Pacifist Patriot]

26. What you're talking about is different from being a sole proprietor.

[Melissa G]

6. To get an SBA loan you cannot make a million dollars and still

be eligible as a small business.

[dothemath]

35. depends on who your 'friends' are ..........

When Mitt's daddy was president of American Motors, he borrowed $250 million dollars from the SBA.

I don't know if it was paid back. I don't think it was.

Mitt's daddy moved the business to Canada, but it still went under and disappeared. What's that? Were any jobs lost in the USA when the company moved? What do you think?\

So, Mitt's propensity to ship jobs out of the country was something he learned at his daddy's knee.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

7. Bechtel, the largest construction company on earth, is considered a small business

So yeah, we are getting screwed. So what else is new?

[DCBob]

8. It boggles the mind.

The GOP has truly gone to the dark side.

[WillyT]

10. C'Mon Man... You Know... Small Businesses... Like GE, BP, ATT, Wal-Mart, Exxon...

You know... mom and pop stores like that.

:shrug:

Sad how multi-national corporations are hiding under the skirts of ACTUAL small-business owners. While screwing them over at the same time.

:hi:

:kick:

[Huey P. Long]

41. KO did a segment on that re:BP, among others, classifying it as a 'small business', as I recall.

[NewJeffCT]

42. I thought it was Halliburton that was classified as a small business?

though, BP may have been another segment?

I think the Koch Brothers business was considered small as well.

[Huey P. Long]

52. Now that you mention it, yes, but in the course of doing a BP story.

He ran through a huge list of billion dollar multinational 'small businesses'.

[spanone]

11. how many jobs have the bu$h* tax cuts created?

fuck these lying fuckers...they change the rules to justify the current lie

[L0oniX]

14. Gross and net profit are 2 seperate things. Most small businesses don't have a 1 million net profit.

[Remember Me]

15. This applies to the Koch Brothers. They are a 'small business' because

they are privately held and NOT incorporated.

All the language about protecting small businesses, yadayada, is specifically aimed at protecting them -- and any other "small businesses" that happen to fit that same profile.

[applegrove]

16. Because you are a small business owner I have a question for you. Do you use your credit

card less these days because of the new (5 years old) bankruptcy laws? Do you get small business loans instead? Are you more risk averse because of the bankruptcy laws?

[Stinky The Clown]

17. We use company credit cards and pay the balance each and every month

We have zero debt.

[Lugnut]

18. My son is a small business owner.

He's had a good year when he nets $60,000 a year.

[Pacifist Patriot]

25. I'd break down in tears and call that a phenomenal year.

But I have to admit, the business I have isn't really set up to break more than about $30,000 in personal income so something really weird would have to happen. :-)

[Lugnut]

34. My son is an over-the-road independent owner/operator.

He hauls frozen food within the NE corridor from DE to ME. With fuel prices where they are his expenses are eye-popping but he's managed to do pretty well for the past seven years.

[Lorien]

19. I'm a small business owner, many of my friends are too, but none of

us make a million a year. I have one friend who probably pulls in 250-300k a year, but that's still nowhere close. The GOP is divorced from reality.

BTW- their definition of "small business" is any business with less than 500 employees (which is also a joke).

[meow2u3]

27. A common-sense definition of a small business has to do with annual income

Not the number of employees it has on its payroll. Dominant companies are never regarded as small businesses, and the Kochroach Bros. are dominant.

This is the SBA's definition of a small business: http://www.sba.gov/content/what-sbas-definition-small-business-concern

SBA defines a small business concern as one that is independently owned and operated, is organized for profit, and is not dominant in its field. Depending on the industry, size standard eligibility is based on the average number of employees for the preceding twelve months or on sales volume averaged over a three-year period.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. knr

[harmonicon]

22. Does anyone actually buy into it though?

I think it's pretty clear that Republicans hate small businesses, but it's not considered appropriate to say that. They also hate "the mixing of the races" (ok, not counting white men getting themselves a hot latin wife, bush-style), but can't say so anymore. The biggest lie is that they want small government, yet W. increased the size of the federal government more than any president since FDR.

[UpInArms]

23. another small business owner here -

and hahahahaha! $1 million personal income !

I remember Dimson saying that a small business had receipts of more than $5 million a year - and to me, that is not a "small" business.

[paparush]

28. tl;dr - Republicans lie.

[Uben]

29. All small businesses should earn at least a million $ a year

If you don't earn a million a year, you're not trying hard enough and should have to pay a "lazy tax". We can use that revenue to increase the wealth of those small business owners who do make a million or more. What we need is more billionaires.



I got into business 25 yrs ago. After years of sacrifice and hard work, I now make about $100K/yr. So, in another 250 yrs or so, I'll be up to the $1 million/yr mark. Had I not been so damned lazy, I would be earning a million a year already, but I was forced to spend some of my valuable time on my family. Yeah, I know, but my wife insisted. It's her fault.









/sarcasm

[The Wizard]

30. Republicans are expert

at perverting the English language, and their propaganda operation would make Goebbels blush.

[AllyCat]

32. I know one and she is a Republican

And she is SURE that if we had even lower taxes, she would finally make her million instead of laying off nearly all her employees.

[Felinity]

36. Kicking

OP: "Taxes on personal incomes over one MILLION dollars are enjoyed by one third of small business owner."

I'd like a list, you prevaricating vipers.

Let's get a little dialogue going, Rethugs.


Edit for punctuational integrity.

[peacetalksforall]

37. small business is not limited to one owner, but one person can have a small

business.

A small business can be co-owned (family or not) implying sharing which implies shares.

Or small business can be owned by one person.

If shared, the owners decide what salaries to take based on profit and their decision on the take versus re-investing, expanding, etc.

What is needed are statistics showing how many sole owners or share owners make more than a million.

It could be INSIGNIFICANT number of not.

What affects the numbers is the high volume of sport, film, music, book, (lobbyist-consultant?) sole owners who are going to run up the number of people making more than a million which helps Republicans distort.

Democratic leaders should have already shared this with the public and provided the definitions with examples.. They should also share the numbers and provided examples.

Where is Alan Grayson when you need him. Find out what Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich have probably already said.

The gap of time between the rush of Republican making claims and a non-response by Democrats gives the Repubs a lead which trickles down to those stupid people who believe anything their side says without wasting one brain cell to think things through for themselves.

[adamuu]

40. no, wait, sometimes the easiest thing for tax purposes for a sole proprietorship is

to just declare all of the business's revenue as personal income, and itemize the business expenses. It's not that the salary is over 1million.

It means a more complicated tax arrangement for small businesses. Protip: Incorporate.

[NewJeffCT]

43. If they're allowed to spew that BS without rebutall on Fox News, Rush, etc

then people will start to believe it's true.

[Swede Atlanta]

45. It is their definition that is the problem.....

I consider "small business" as one that is defined by the number of employees. But watch carefully how the repukkkes define it. They often (if not always) define it in terms of ownership...e.g. a limited partnership that is owned by 3 individuals or a family as opposed to a corporation that may have anywhere from a score to thousands of shareholders.

This is what the repukkkes don't ever reveal. They mean small in terms of number of owners, regardless of income or number of employees.

[TheKentuckian]

47. I say it is a mix of ownership structure, market share, number of employees, and revenue

I'm probably missing some important factors too but number of employees can be deceptive in a world where the largest profits are to those without a product or service that make their way off of financial manipulation and playing in casinos.

[bvar22]

46. I STILL OPPOSE this.

Screwing with the funding source of Social Security and Medicare in any way that blurs the line between Social Security and the General Fund OR the Income Tax is a BAD IDEA.

The very best argument FOR Social Security is that is Completely Separate from the General Fund and Income Taxes.
Prior to the first Payroll Tax "Holiday", it could be truly stated that:
"Social Security is NOT the cause of, or related TO the Deficit IN ANY WAY. It is completely independent and Running a Surplus."

The First Payroll Tax "Holiday" directly tied Social Security to The Deficit.

Payroll Tax Holiday Directly Connects Social Security to The Deficit

If this proposed extension further enmeshes Social Security funding with Income Taxes, it WILL become easier to kill.

Do NOT fuck with Social Security!
There was (is) NOTHING wrong with it.

A REAL Democrat would be preaching to RAISE the Cap on FICA contributions.
This would have the same effect, but would preserve the wall of separation between Social Security and the General Fund.
These Tax Holidays are a seductive Trojan Horse that only strengthen the Republican memes,
and weaken Social Security.
It was created as a separate program with separate funding FOR A REASON.




You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.
Solidarity99!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Angry Dragon]

48. +25670

[Stinky The Clown]

63. You're right, of course. No argument. But this is a different issue.

[deaniac21]

65. Picture of the trust fund....

[Chef Eric]

71. Yes. It seems that these Senate Democrats WANT to endanger Social Security! nt

[Doctor_J]

49. I thought mega-internationals were th job creators

I wish I could keep their lies straight. No I don't

[madfloridian]

50. Why are they so determined to mess up Soc. Sec. funding?

And why are we not making a bigger fuss about it?

[Chef Eric]

72. I suspect it's because they think we "don't have anywhere else to go."

They can fuck with Social Security all they want, and we can't do anything about it because the Republicans are worse.

[AngryAmish]

53. I know a lot of small business owners who make that much

But that may just be the circles I travel in. But most don't make it every year.

[bertman]

54. This, non-millionairre small business owner agrees with you, Stinky. Another

example of our government at its worst. War is peace. Truth is a lie. Large is small.

REC.

[Hubert Flottz]

55. "Who the fuck are they kidding"

Any fool who is stupid enough to listen to their silly, childish, shit. And I think reality is causing that number to grow smaller with each passing second!

[rtassi]

57. Yep ... My small business grosses about 850.000 less ...

[Hosnon]

68. And taxes aren't levied against gross income.

So a business that brings in $5 billion but has operating expenses of $4,999,000,001 would not see this increase.

[Broderick]

75. I get hit with taxes on gross sales at the state level

sucks when you sell fuel. When you make 6-10 cents a gallon before cc fees, ect. Sell 3M in gas at those margins and my tax rate on volume is the same as someone selling 3M @ 50% gP.

[Hosnon]

82. But that's not income taxes, right? nt.

[Broderick]

85. No not income taxes in a conventional sense

but in business license tax, which is on gross sales.

[Hosnon]

86. So this 3% increase would not affect that.

(Also because it's federal, not state.)

[dh1760]

58. Surprised the term Micro Business hasn't entered the discussion...

What most individuals think of as a "small business", are actually classified as Micro Businesses. Depending on the definition, this is anywhere from 1-5 employees and under a million a year in sales, up to 25 employees and under 2.75 million a year in sales.

This is clearly not the category that Republicans in Congress are referencing when they make the claim that 1/3 of "small business" owners earn over a million a year, and would be hurt by new taxes on high-income earners. Although, just as clearly, they are perfectly willing to use any resulting misconception to their advantage.

http://knol.google.com/k/what-is-a-microbusiness#

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-enterprise

[Stinky The Clown]

67. Spot on. The rhetoric they use produces images of micro businesses with Mom, Pop and the kids ......

...... happily toiling to produce and sell their own special widgets.

As I said in the OP, this is a Big Lie

[DaveJ]

59. Correct me if I'm wrong small business owners....

I've always assumed business owners will create jobs if those jobs create more revenue.

If more employees at the business equals more money, they will find a way to hire more employees, tax or no tax. Right??? Well unless the employee only generates a few dollars in revenue in which case it's too delicate a situation to be in in the first place.

This argument Republicans use is the most asinine illogical argument of them all, well right after "oil will never run out".

[liam_laddie]

60. Excellent points made, Stinky!

This NEEDS to be part of the national discussion about the distortion/deception which the gummint, especially the repukes, foist upon the masses, of which I am just another bozo. Why don't the hosts of the Sunday AM "news" shows emphasize this? Oh, wait...

[AlbertCat]

61. Who the fuck are they kidding . . . . ?

Themselves?


...'cause I ain't falling for it.


Actually, they aren't either. They just hope you will fall for it.

[femrap]

64. K and R

If a repugnant is talking, he/she is lying.

[Hosnon]

66. Agreed and, as a small business owner, I get so effing sick of this from the GOP.

It's all about taxable income.

If your business has $1,000,000+ sitting in its operating account at the end of the year (meaning all your advertising is paid, all your payroll is paid, all your rent, utilities, office supplies, are paid - all the operating expenses of the business have been paid), you're either not a small business (under the common understanding of the term) or you're a small business that can without a doubt absorb a 3% hike for the good of the nation.

And dumb-f---s I talk to all the time (non-business owning Republicans) never seem to grasp the concept of gross vs. taxable income and how different that relationship is regarding business income as opposed to personal income.

[CrispyQ]

69. "This Big Lie has been told, unchanged, for a looooong time."

And unchallenged. Where are the dems on this & on so many other issues as well.

[aggiesal]

70. Believe it or not ...

Koch Industries, run by the Koch Brothers, and all their
Big OIL subsidiaries are considered, in the GOV't eyes a

SMALL BUSINESS!

[secondwind]

73. Koch Bros fall under the term "small business" if you can believe that!

[proReality]

74. Owned my own consulting business w/ 5 employees (that's small)

Never earned more than $60k in personal income, and that was my best year ever.

[certainot]

76. dems hate small business- said for 20 years from 1000 radio stations, w/out challenge

[Lunabelle]

77. People keep believing the GOP lies

Some people are so stoopid.

[Mugweed]

78. I own my own business

I also have a second job because my business does not sustain me. Fuck their lies.

[DFW]

79. And please note, that's 3% on earnings OVER $1 million

You gotta get there first before it would even kick in.

Now THERE'S a problem I wouldn't mind having!

[Tumbulu]

81. I own my own business and my income after expenses

is so frightening, that I have begun applying for jobs- big joke- there are no jobs...... and this is true for every other small business owner that I know now.

Anyone making 1 million in profits should be paying 90% tax, like in the old days.

90% for the 10% is what I say.....

[Fool Count]

83. US Small Business Administration defines "small business" as

the one employing <500 people in manufacturing or grossing <$7 million in non-manufacturing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_business .
So technically a 500-person manufacturing plant is considered a "small business". That's about $20-30 million in total annual payroll.
I suppose that is "small" in comparison with GE or Exxon, but it certainly is beyond any common-sense definition of "small business".
For comparison, in Australia "small business" is defined as employing <15 people, which to me seems more in line with what most people
imagine it to be.

[reACTIONary]

84. So here is an idea...

Seems the republicans are abusing the concept of a "small" business in order to gain sympathy for what are, in truth, One Percenters (or at least up towards that end of the scale). And it seems that there are a lot of small business owners, right here on DU, who are onto their game.

What to do?

Maybe start a group/association of small business owners who issue press releases disputing the notion that small business owners will be affected by (fill in the blank - whatever it is the republicans are trying to push and/or nix). It would be a bit like the millionaires or billionaires that advocate progressive taxation. It would be an authoritative voice that would have some cred with the press and would get a spot as the "opposing view" whenever one of these disinformation campaigns is being run.

PS, I am not a small business owner, and I don't have a clue about how such an association or group could be formed or run, so I'm not going to be much help. Just thought I would throw it out in case anyone liked the idea.