I dont care so much if there was a conspiracy or not. Peaceful protesters should be allowed to do so

[stevenleser]

We have the right to protest peacefully. The fact that there are any crackdowns at all, whether coordinated or not at the federal level, whether coordinated or not between mayors during their regular conference calls, it should not be happening.

This is disgraceful. I'm really upset about this. I don't know what I am going to do about it yet, but it is hard to digest that this is happening here.

On Edit: Apologies for the awful grammar in this OP.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. I'm sorry. I don't know what you're referring to. Please explain. nt

[stevenleser]

2. OWS crackdowns. nt

[Remember Me]

9. You know, I agree with you, but I'm curious

This isn't NEW. This is what happens to peaceful protesters on the left all the time.

It didn't happen much during the pre-war protests, but there was some pushback that was a little muscular, but it definitely happened to the anti-globalization protesters.

Why are people just now getting it? That's my question. Why is this something you've just now discovered????? We've had it since at least the 60s, and if Labor history serves, a hella lot longer than that.

[stevenleser]

15. Its pretty new.

I've participated in antiwar protests in the past and did not encounter issues with law enforcement.

The anti-globalization protesters seemed intent on causing a confrontation with law enforcement and thus didnt elicit the same concerns.

50 years is a long time. It is natural to expect that, just like with racism and other discrimination, things have evolved since then with reactions to protesters. Until now, it would seem that they have.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

10. Oh ok. Well, that's the way it goes with movements

But think for a moment how much OWS has changed things. Or don't you notice that the movement has grown, that media is reporting all this? Have you forgotten that before OWS the media was not reporting all the corruption of Wall Street?

[stlsaxman]

24. They refer to Naomi Wolf's article "The shocking truth about the crackdown on Occupy"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/25/shocking-truth-about-crackdown-occupy?fb=native&CMP=FBCNETTXT9038

She says the coordinated crackdown came from Rep. Peter King and DHS while Obama was out of the country.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Oh God. Looked him up. He looks EXACTLY like a Republican a-hole I correspond with...

and who is a complete butt-kisser of the 1%. Looks like a twin. I'm off to read that. Thanks.

[RKP5637]

3. It's getting very ugly in this country. IMO it's a message from TPTB to STFU or

you're next.

[ZenaD]

4. I agree 100%

[brooklynite]

5. So are you saying your right to protest trumps all other activities?

Do you have the right to protest on someone else's property?

Do you have the right to interfere with other people's use of the streets or sidewalks?

Do you have the right to block access to any business or institution?

Do you have the right to violate locals laws on noise, health and fire safety?

I don't for a minute excuse the tactics of the police in evicting or arresting protestors, but I haven't seen any one arrested for he simple fact of speaking out on issues of concern to them.

[ThomCat]

7. Then you haven't been paying attention.

[ZenaD]

30. I love your sig line!

Hope you don't mind if I borrow it from time to time.

[saras]

12. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Protest civil rights loss over property rights? Yes, I have no problem with that. Property rights are secondary, and ultimately the property isn't yours anyways, as eminent domain demonstrates.

I have as much right to interfere with their use of the streets as their consumerism has a right to interfere with my air, water, and food. No less. They are threatening to kill me.

Block the access to a business or institution? Yep. That's the whole purpose of a strike - it's to make it clear that to SEEK access to the business or institution is a personal attack on every protester or striker there, and they are as fallible and easy to anger as any other humans.

Local NOISE laws? It depends. If they're not objective, based in decibel measurements, based in health concerns and not the tastes of the wealthy, and equally applied to everyone and everything, including construction machinery and commercial establishments, then yes, they're both corrupt AND unimportant.

Likewise with health laws - they have to be REASONABLE. Bogus laws clearly used to discriminate are UNWORTHY OF RESPECT. It is FALSE respect for our legal system to pretend that clearly unconstitutional laws and interpretations are legitimate. It is all of our responsibility to challenge such laws, every time.

Likewise fire safety, which is infamously used to harass social phenomena that TPTB disapprove of - usually these laws are written in such a way that it's impossible - not merely difficult but impossible - for anything but a large corporate enterprise to obey them.

I would expect officers enforcing health and safety laws to be counseling people on better alternatives - that is, actually doing their jobs as public servants - rather than using those problems as excuses for psychotically violent attacks.

I have yet to see a single case where an officer who violently attacked a nonviolent protester deserves anything less than felon status - permanently losing the right to have a gun, to enforce the law, to have physical power over others. Nothing about any of the laws involved would be an excuse for these attacks - NOT EVEN THE VIOLENCE AND BOMBINGS OF 1960's PROTESTS.

[dkf]

25. So basically you only follow laws you agree with.

[apocalypsehow]

45. Yep, that pretty much sums it up. But turn the tables and do unto those advocating for same as they

do, and watch the howling about "my rights" and "my property" and "you're keeping me awake with that loud noise" and "I have a right to do business there!" begin! When those shoes start to be fitted to the other foot, all of a sudden it's "bu-bu-but th-that's different!!!!!!!!111"

[treestar]

43. That is so backwards in so many ways

It is impossible to respond! Eminent domain protects property rights, as the government cannot take property without just compensation.

Of course people have a right to peace in their homes and businesses. Just because someone decides to "protest" doesn't undermined that.

Criminals could say they are "protesting."

[stevenleser]

13. It trumps most of them, YES.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

----------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment#Petition_and_assembly

...the Supreme Court held that "the right of the people peaceably to assemble for the purpose of petitioning Congress for a redress of grievances, or for anything else connected with the powers or duties of the National Government, is an attribute of national citizenship, and, as such, under protection of, and guaranteed by, the United States.
----------------------

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment
Originally, the First Amendment applied only to laws enacted by the Congress. However, starting with Gitlow v. New York, 268 U.S. 652 (1925), the Supreme Court has held that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment applies the First Amendment to each state, including any local government.
----------------------

There is definitely a question of private property or private business... but if that private business has been bailed out by the public dole, is it still completely private at that point?

[Selatius]

19. The Bill of Rights should be where you find the answer. nt

[ZombieHorde]

21. Even journalists, lawyers, and a judge has been attacked, and they were

obeying all of the laws.

[Scuba]

23. Then pay closer attention. n/t

[ZenaD]

29. What were the students at UC Davis doing that warranted being pepper sprayed?

[Vincardog]

31. Do have any evidence that they DID any of the offenses listed?

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. Do I have a right to report on any of this

Or has freedom of the press also been abrogated?

You at least make sense not liking any of this from the peasants.

[robinlynne]

39. then you are not looking.

[treestar]

41. +1, it is so ridiculous here

People like OWS, therefore it should be able to do whatever it wants.

Cops should apparently just leave them be, no matter what laws are involved. Why do we make laws if they are to be exempt when some group just decides they should be?

It has nothing to do with the First Amendment. Time place and manner regulations have been found constitutional. It is not preventing people from expressing themselves. They can do that in conforming with the regulations. It was in places like Nazi Germany that the expression itself was not allowed.

[tavalon]

46. Wow, you must be the bird with its head in the sand

Because you don't appear to know of the many unprovoked military style attack that have happened without provocation. And they have happened over and over and over and yet again, over!

[jimlup]

6. Ah you live under the delusion that we still have a constitution...

Yeah I know but it is true - it has essentially been vacated. They don't care about our "rights" anymore. They don't even like it that we vote and stuff. They'd stop that if they could.

[RKP5637]

11. And they are working around that I think with electronic voting and endless

redistricting. I've explained to some republicans before they've got to stop thinking about Left versus Right, R versus D. This is about fighting the "Party of Wealth" versus the rest of us. And a few of them actually listened to me when they they started thinking about it all.

[jimlup]

17. I think that if the truth were actually known then an

overwhelming majority would be strongly against The Reptilians. But alas - our news media is bought and paid for by the very forces we are fighting.

[RKP5637]

18. Yeah, that is soooooo true, a huge obstacle. Unfortunately way too many

just flip the Tee Vee on and think MSM is the truth.

[treestar]

44. -1000000

How utterly ridiculous.

The US is nowhere near that bad.

[drm604]

8. I'm guessing that you're young and didn't live through the sixties.

This kind of crackdown is not new or unexpected. It is, of course, totally unacceptable. It always is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

Be angry. I am. We all should be.

[RKP5637]

14. Frankly, I've never seen much real change in this country without endless

protests, etc., etc., as in the sixties. And it's the same with other countries. If we had the ideal world people would do the right thing, but selfishness, greed and power hungry individuals usually rise. I think it's endemic to the human species.

It's been a long time since the sixties, many today have never experienced anything like that, but they will, or we as what's left of a democracy will really cease.

We're now I believe the longest lasting democracy, and most peter out about now, another reason OWS is soooo very important, as we all well know.

Exactly as you said!!! "Be angry. I am. We all should be."

[dkf]

26. Anyone who wants stuff is selfish.

The only paragons of virtue are those who earn and give everything away.

[a simple pattern]

28. More like the selfish tend to accumulate stuff.

I would say the paragons of virtue are those who don't have, and still manage to share.

[dkf]

38. Who doesn't have stuff?

In the scheme of things should you have a TV if someone in this world went hungry?

[stevenleser]

16. I dont buy it.

50-70 years is a long time. 70 years ago, Germany was engaged in a Nazi/fascist genocide. Now they are among the most progressive countries on earth. Just because something was so 50-70 years ago means nothing.

50 years ago, what was the status of the African American community? The LGBT community? Should they be expecting to be treated the same way as then?

I could go on. Yes, my expectations were that this would not happen here and now.

[drm604]

20. The people then didn't think it could happen to them.

They didn't think it could happen here.

And no, nobody should be expecting to be treated that way. That wasn't what I said.

[EFerrari]

22. And CoIntelPro.

When I first heard about it, I thought it was some kind of paranoid fantasy.

COINTELPRO (an acronym for Counter Intelligence Program) was a series of covert, and often illegal,<2> projects conducted by the United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and disrupting domestic political organizations.

COINTELPRO tactics included discrediting targets through psychological warfare, planting false reports in the media, smearing through forged letters, harassment, wrongful imprisonment, illegal violence and assassination. Covert operations under COINTELPRO took place between 1956 and 1971; however, the FBI has used covert operations against domestic political groups since its inception.<3> The FBI's stated motivation at the time was "protecting national security, preventing violence, and maintaining the existing social and political order."<4>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

[stevenleser]

49. One of many J. Edgar Hoover Fascist overreaches, but the FBI hasnt been like that in a while

I'm not sure why Cointelpro keeps being brought up.

[AntiFascist]

27. Operation Garden Plot is the old plan for Federal involvement...

in domestic disturbances and rioting. It was activated during the LA Riots in 1992, but many Obama supporters deny that anything like this is happening now. Garden Plot has been superceded by secretive plans that have been put into place after 9-11, which likely involve coordination through the DHS. FOIA documents hint that the current plans are similar to Garden Plot. Garden Plot specifically places decision-making in the hands of the President, and stresses that the President must basically balance the potential political blowback to his decisions.

I honestly don't know if anything like this has been activated with respect to OWS or not, there doesn't seem to be any solid evidence coming forth. But, it would be truly disgusting if the President could act on these plans in secret while publically denying any Federal involvement at all, thus avoiding the political blowback.

[upi402]

33. Team Obama OK's the use of force against peaceful protesters

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/americas/obama-each-city-must-decide-how-to-handle-occupy-wall-street-demonstrations/2011/11/15/gIQAQj7aPN_story.html
Didn't we get hyped into a war in Iraq because Saddam did this crap? ...Chemical weapons attacks against his own people>
Students linking arms deserves chemical weapon attacks?
:wtf:
But Teabaggers who bring guns and carry signs stating intentions to use them next time - brings media accolades?

Time to rethink this one.

[stevenleser]

47. That has since been debunked. nt

[Fire Walk With Me]

34. Expert calls Occupy demos most important in generations; urges they be left alone

TORONTO - The Occupy protest is the most important democratic social movement of the last two generations and demonstrators who have taken over parks and other public spaces should be left alone, an expert in social movements said Wednesday.

As civic authorities across Canada and the U.S. move to end the various occupations, Vincent Mosco, professor emeritus of sociology at Queen's University, said the "extraordinary" movement had created a rarely seen coalition.

"When you see trade unionists, students, minority groups and others coming together, locking arms across sites in North America, what we have here is something unprecedented — at least in recent memory," Mosco said from Ottawa.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/canada/breakingnews/expert-calls-occupy-demos-most-important-in-generations-urges-they-be-left-alone-133995048.html

[Fire Walk With Me]

35. Money calls the shots. Read the letter from local businesses to Mayor Quan of Oakland about #Occupy:

http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2011/11/08/11.8.11.oakland_letter_fin-mayor.pdf

"The protest has been allowed to run its course. Now it’s time to focus on jobs and the economic restoration of our city. It’s time for bold leadership and forceful action, not unending social experimentation. We call upon the Oakland City Council and the Mayor of Oakland to step up and provide cohesive, common sense leadership -­‐-­‐before it really is too late.

Sincerely,

The Board of Directors Downtown Oakland Association
Lake Merritt/Uptown District Association"

[revolution breeze]

36. I live outside of New Orleans

The mayor and city council don't want to scare off our only industry, tourism, so they have to keep everyone quiet and under control on Duncan Plaza. God forbid the protestors venture onto Poydras Street and get on camera during the broadcast of Monday Night Football!!!!

[treestar]

40. But then peaceful would have to include

go home when the park closes, and observe the ordinances that apply.

[msanthrope]

42. Should Occupy Philly be allowed to block handicapped accessibility to City Hall? The subway?

Not for anything, but the Dilworth Plaza renovation will allow better handicapped access to City Hall, and finally, access to the subway stop underneath.....

Why can't they move across the street?

[stevenleser]

48. Yes, depending upon what you mean by block

by "block access to the subway", do you mean deny access to one subway entrance at one location for one day (in which case my answer would be Yes) or the entire subway system for a month or year? (In which case my answer would be no).

by "block handicapped accessibility to City Hall", again, do you mean one day, (in which case I would say 'Yes' and that the city needs to make other arrangements during the process to allow handicapped access) or a continual campaign to do so aimed at the handicapped? (in which case I would say 'No'.