As a two month NYC ows volunteer I am pissed at Obama

[joshguitar]

I have seen young girls beaten, pepper sprayed and groped by the NYPD. I have been kettled for disobeying no laws. I have seen illegal search and seizure. I have seen voices silenced. I have seen press arrested and coralled. I have seen American citizens denied access to Broadway in New York City at 10 am unless they have a bank ID. I have been cuffed for basically standing too near an angry riot cop. I have seen the NYPD disobey court injunctions and try to intimidate lawyers. I have seen all of this with my own eyes. Through thousands of electronic devices I have seen far worse documented in other cities.

And Obama is silent. He is silent as US citizens, many of whom most likely voted for him three years ago, are beaten in the streets. So much for the 1st, 4th, 9th and 14th ammendment Mr President.

[truedelphi]

1. OWS wouldn't have needed to come into existence if

Obama had remembered 40% of the things he pledged us when he ran for President.

His failures, combined with the fact that there really is only One Big Money Party, require that those of us who have awakened do the Occupy! dance.

Those of us old enough remember all this from before. Chicago August 1968. College campuses and cities almost anywhere during the week of Kent State.

People also suffered in the street demonstrations leading up to the first Iraqi War, in January of 1991.

In general the police in this country almost always belong to the military, and to the Uber Rich.

Occupy! will either succeed because of all the people out in the street, or it will dissolve. And if it dissolves, God help us.

[joshguitar]

2. truth. thank you

sometimes I get discourged and lose sight of the big picture. Thank you for reminding me why I need to keep going down.

[Motown_Johnny]

49. Rachel had him fulfilling 85% of his campaign promises as of a year ago

so it would seem that (if she is anywhere near accurate) your 40% estimate is way off.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/#4077 ...

[DainBramaged]

51. So you didn't get his point?

:eyes:

[Motown_Johnny]

169. I got it, but the 40% estimate isn't close and should be corrected

[bluestate10]

190. I don't get his point at all.

OWS could have chosen other ways to impact society. They put themselves in a situation where moronic cops can take out pent up hostility on them. Voting is the most powerful tool for bringing about change, that is why teafucks and the religious right have more power than their numbers warrant, they vote. When the OWS people start showing real political savvy and start using their technological sophistication to overwhelm the mainstream media, they will have influence and politicians will be grovelling at their feet instead of holding them at arm's length.

[Logical]

222. Lol...sitting on your ass I am sure!

[xiamiam]

62. love and respect Rachel..but , the op is right...nt

[robinlynne]

110. +1

[Motown_Johnny]

174. I wasn't responding to the OP

I did nothing but point out that the 40% estimate isn't accurate.


I said nothing else.

[Scuba]

67. All promises are not equally weighted. n/t

[indepat]

119. Amen, just like there is no "shared sacrifice" when those most able to sacrifice are not even asked

to bear an equitable portion of the burden, much less to sacrifice. :patriot:

[whathehell]

138. +10 n/t

[CoffeeCat]

91. Yes, but Obama's BIG PROMISE of "hope and change"...

...has NEVER been fulfilled.

Obama knew damn well that so many of us wanted to be free of the Bush Doctrines--of
perpetual war, illegal surveillance on American citizens, torture, the absence
of Habeas Corpus, tax breaks for millionaires and billionaires, a profit-centric
healthcare system where health-insurers decide whether we live or die and a corrupt,
disgusting system of government where corporations own our paid-off politicians.

Ok, NONE of that ended. In fact, those things have worsened and I am sick and tired
of the semantics.

One could argue that Obama said he would "end the war in Iraq" and that he is making
strides toward doing that. But it's all a big lie when you look at the reality.

The neocon plan was to dominate and conquer Iraq, Iran, Syria, Libya. Iraq was the
big one, because that is how they gained their foothold. So really, Iraq has served
its purpose and it's on to the other neocon goals---and Obama gave them Libya, now
we're onto Syria and the saber rattling continues with Iran.

There's so many of Obama's promises that are like that. They're fake. They've only
perpetuated corporate power, Wall Street abuses and perennial war.

I think a very possible scenario is that our country is so corrupt that even a President
is powerless and beholden to the corporate power that has engulfed our government. That
is a case that is arguable. But please--let's not argue--as our democracy is on fire
and as the corporations control our government--that Obama has kept his word when the
major tenants of his "hope and change" campaign have been horrendously and shamefully
unfulfilled.

[joshguitar]

99. +1 n.t

[russspeakeasy]

135. Very well said.

Thanks.

[Motown_Johnny]

173. No, Iran is the big one and they are still trying to push that

The idea that the country can change in 3 or 4 years is simplistic. It takes decades. What he promised to do was to start things in a new direction, not to deliver us there in the first term.


FDR had us on the right track and it lasted for decades. Reagan has now had us on the wrong track for decades. All Obama can do is try to steer us back to the track we were on pre-Reagan. It is not reasonable to assume he could undo 30 years of destructive policies in 3 years.

[Scuba]

247. +1

[Marrah_G]

95. You should post the list everytime someone is upset with him

That way you can get them to shut up and you don't even have to listen to what they are saying.

You could also try sticking your fingers in your ears while chanting "he is the best president who has ever lived" over and over.

[Motown_Johnny]

171. I am doing nothing other than correcting the 40% estimate

I said nothing other than that the estimate was off and presented evidence as to why I believe it is off.


I said noting else. Please stop putting words in my mouth/post.

[Marrah_G]

242. And again you miss the point completely

[tblue]

114. Yeah, but that 15% is a mofo. It is NOT negligible.

I don't give a damn about a laundry list of promises. I want a President who LEADS where leadership is required. We don't have that.

[MaineDeadHead]

127. Oh?

Parsing and dissembling will get you nowhere.

[Motown_Johnny]

166. I'm not parsing. I am quoting someone with a doctorate in politics (Oxford) and

a bachelors in public policy (Stanford) who is one of the most outspoken and unapologetic liberals in our country today.


It is called presenting evidence. If you watch the video at the link I provided you will see that is what I was doing.

[truedelphi]

129. Yes if you add up all the promises, big and little,

He fulfilled 85%. He has been especially good at the little promises.

Bu the problem is, for most of us, the big issues were ignored. So while Monsanto was made stronger and stronger by Obama appointments, including pro-Monsanto Sotemayor on the Supreme Court, the small farmers suffered as they could not get capital from the banks who have not been lending to the small time crowd.

For instance, I read reports the summer of 2009, that over 100K dairy cattle were slaughtered as little farmers in just three No Calif counties, went under. Meanwhile, Obama's buddies at Goldman Sachs had enough money to buy themselves a nature preserve in Patagonia, courtesy of the semi-legal, highly immoral maneuvers that Obama's good buddy Geithner put in place for those big financial firms. ! And of course, the Big Agri interests he has worked so hard to protect are benefitted - if all the milk on the shelves is from big Agri, people who don't want bovine growth hormone and mastisitis pus and also antibiotics to offer their children won't have any choice. Big win for Big Agri, and for Monsanto.

Yes, I have visited several sites that list the big and little promises Obama made. And again, if you add the little promises in with the big ones, you can arrive at that happy 85% total. But examined more carefully, the results are not so encouraging. Like credit is given for his sham of a health care bill, so he can check that off as "Mission Accomplished" even though it means that for many older Americans we can never get work for legit employers. They cannot accept and pay out the huge insurance premiums that would come with hiring us over a younger worker whose insurance premiums are much less. So many of uys watch as we use our retirement funds for things like health care premiums, utilities, house payments and rent, food, and maybe the occasional new pair of shoes. And we see it is not going to turn around. We have been legislated out of work by this smug guy who is so busy withthe I*n Crowd that he doeesn't have the foggiest idea of what is happening.

Also, the big promise was the economic hope tht he offered us - including his insistence in Oct 2008 that if the banks didn't loan out any money, to Main Street, especially given that the crowd on Main Street are on the hook for the BailOut Trillions, then he would see regulations were put in place "during my first year in office." Those regulations never came about, except for him scolding the banks.Unfortunately the economic promises never materialized in the major ways that were needed. And if it had not been for Bernie Sanders,w e wouldn't have even gotten a glimpse of the real damage done by the Paulson/Bernanke/Geithner trio and the nine to fourteen trillions of dollars that was handed out the back door of the Federal Reserve. Oh I know that you and I both have heard that these "loans" were paiud back - but the collateral used as "payback" was a bunch of investment books containing a bunch of investments, most of which would probably have to serve as toilet paper to have any value.

That nine to fourteen trillions of dollars means that we are in a real conundrum. Especially now that the Republicans want the deficit zeroed out. So the foreclosures will continue, the military operations abroad, and now here at home as Obama's DOJ inflicts real damage on the one part of the Californian economy that was working out very well.

Rachel is also excited because she has been invited to the WH. And she has seen passage of the act allowing gays in the military. Maybe she figures we would still have the same economic situation with the Repugs in place, but no gains for the LGBT crowd. And she is probably right about how little would have come to the LGBT crowd if the Repugs were in office. But does it matter if we get one leg up on that issue, and go to bed in a tent and very hungry every night? I guess she has enough income she doesn't need to think about that.

And there were many avenues Obama could have taken to change things, had he not been beholden to his real employers, the Big Financial People, and the Big Military concerns. A dimple executive order banning residential foreclosures could have been a magnificent step, with it s precedent apparent to any who understand that some 35 states forbade foreclosure of the residencea used as homes during the Great Depression. He could have put out an executive order decreeing that any government agency using credit collection phone people needed to hire in country, instead of outsourcing those jobs.

And he could have said that for every penny spent on new military hardware, an equal amount of money would go to any states that were in the deficit column. Geithner smugly turned away Schwartzenegger's request for 20 billions of dollars in loans - but in just the last twelve months, we have seen close to 200 Billions of dollars in military hardware to the rulers of the UAE over the last year.

Those 200 billion dollars would restore the top twenty states who have record deficits, and teachers, janitors, project managers, social workers, police, fire fighters etc would be back at work instead of on food stamps.

[MedleyMisty]

180. I just wanted to say thank you for this post

It is intelligent, well written, full of good information, and heartfelt.

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pirate Smile]

3. Your real beef should be with local & state authorities who are responsible for the

decisions by the cops.

Obama has no authority over them - Bloomberg & Cuoumo do.

I don't understand why people expect Obama to do the entire job of Congress - which only they can actually do -and, now, the job of local & state authorities.

Bitch at Bloomberg & Cuoumo.

Obama only commented on the Skip Gates BS when he was asked about it at a press conference - and, of course, that blew up in his face even though what he said was completely reasonable and correct. That same type of thing will probably happen when he gets asked about the specifics at OWS & OUC-Davis.

[Cali_Democrat]

4. Obama speaking out against violence directed at protesters would be very powerful

President Obama can make a difference.

[Pirate Smile]

14. I'm sure he'll say something and then get attacked by Republicans & cop groups

for it - plus it won't be good enough or soon enough for the folks clamoring for it now. It is one of those lose-lose propositions for him.

[Ed Suspicious]

16. You know, I keep seeing that and I think sometimes what's right is right.

No need for political calculus. Stand up and speak out for the weak. Do it because it's right, not because it's politically expedient.

[xiamiam]

63. obama also refused to investigate war crimes..and told us to look forward

that told me everything i need to know..

[SammyWinstonJack]

66. Wanna bet those who excuse Obama would have something different to say if this were

happening under a republican administration?

In fact it just might happen under one, if Obama loses the election.


OWS isn't going away and the police brutality will continue.

[ClassWarrior]

21. It's all a lose-lose proposition for him. Or any Dem in his position. So why doesn't he just...

...say "fuck it" and do what's right, instead of all the worthless political calculation?

NGU.

[Old and In the Way]

25. You just know the RW Wurlitzer wants to turn OWS into a Democratic front group.

As soon as Obama starts defending OWS, the media narrative will start adding "Democratically run" to OWS. It'll be a twofer! OWS will start thinking those opportunistic Democrats are trying to take over the movement (I've seen that one posted on DU already) and Republicans will run on 'Democrats/OWS are trying to destroy this country'. OWS will go 3rd Party and Republicans take the WH in 2012. Win! It'll be 1968 all over again.

[SammyWinstonJack]

68. This isn't about defending OWS and that isn't what I got from the OP.

It's about speaking out against the police brutality and standing up for our Constitutional rights.


That is all anyone is asking and if the right wing assholes and the corporate media whores want to make something more of it, well there isn't much anyone can do to stop that.

The President not speaking out against this, is just WRONG!


And I would expect the same of any republican president also. :silly: I know.

[Vincardog]

81. WE (the OWS participants and supporters) are doing what is right in spite of what the Right Wing Nut

will say and do. You are suggesting that the LEADER of THE FREE WORLD can't have as much courage?

PLEASE

[joshguitar]

100. +1 nt

[frylock]

85. political expediency is always a better tack than doing the right thing

[cherokeeprogressive]

103. Funny how some people overlook that like the elephant in the room. n/t

[RetroLounge]

140. So he's powerless AND scared?

Wow, not much of a messiah for you.

Must suck

RL

[roguevalley]

202. no, actually, its a win situation. He solidifies his position with the

330 million people of the 99%, tells the pugs go ahead and criticize me I'm going to do the right thing anyway and cops can take a hike. If they defend this they are indefensible. Obama's problems started when he STOOD FOR NOTHING.

[ellisonz]

15. A lot of them hate Obama even more than the demonstrators...

[jberryhill]

19. And the cops recognizing he doesn't have jurisdiction would be very impotent

[Pirate Smile]

79. The White House doesn't like to insert itself into situations where it has no control or ability to

affect the situation because it does show they can't actually do anything about it. That isn't a situation they like to hang a flag on and advertise.

I still bet he will say something. I think this is another situation where people yell "Bully Pulpit" and then when it is used to little effect, they will yell "talk is cheap" and ignore the actual authorities in charge.

I don't actually disagree with him saying something about this issue. I just think it is getting overblown and people are always blaming him for sh#$ that is the responsibility of other branches of government. I should have just not bothered saying anything. Not worth it. The differences are actually small - maybe not even real differences, more of a belief that it wont really help or affect anything.

[oldlib]

73. I agree.

I don't understand why Obama hasn't spoken out in support of
the OWS movement. This is a principal that every Democrat
should support.

[tblue]

115. *Void where prohibited

:(

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. So I guess it's ok he reminds Egypt and Syria that these are

global rights...that strangely no longer apply in the us? Oh the irony.

[truedelphi]

11. Yep, Barack Ironical Obama should be his full name. n/t

[UnrepentantLiberal]

37. Now why'd you have to go and lay Egypt and Syria on them?

You know how angry it makes them when you get all logical and stuff.

[SammyWinstonJack]

70. Strange that the O supporters never reply to that, do they?

:shrug:

[Lorien]

87. Never. They'll just counter with

"so you want President Gingrich instead" or whatever the GOP flavor of the week is. They have no defense for the indefensible.

[Name removed]

116. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

198. They do apply in the US

And he is allowed to trust that.

Quit pretending that anyone here is in any danger comparable to what they would be in those countries.

[joshguitar]

8. reasonable advice and..

i have sent letters to the Mayors office and lodged a formal complaint with the 1st Precicnt here for hitting my girlfriend (complete w badge number)

But a statement affirming the Bill of Rights would set a HUGE symbolic and literal example of what it means to be a US citizen

[Pirate Smile]

24. Ugh. I had a long, relatively thoughtful response about the Separation of Powers and how this

reminded me of the Troy Davis execution case where people wanted him to do something or say something but he literally had no power over the issue. :(
I'm too tired to try to do it over again on the iPhone I'm typing on.

I think it would be helpful to have the Justice Dept. do some type of analysis of the over-use & abuse of both tasers & pepper spray by police & other authorities - perhaps with recommendations of the limited circumstances under which they are justified. But, once again, he'd have no authority to force police depts to comply.

This entire situation is a huge set-up for a massive law school exam over the Bill of Rights, Separation of Powers & time, place & manner restrictions on free speech.

[joshguitar]

28. +1 nt :D

[UnrepentantLiberal]

38. Okay, he has no jurisdiction over anything other than legally grown

marijuana. And since Congress has all the power, he's basically a figure head. It's a ceremonial post. Like the Queen of England. All he has the power to do is kiss babies and make pretty speeches while surrounded by common folk. Anyone who claims otherwise is a trouble making doo doo head.

[stillwaiting]

50. That's what happens when a Democrat is in office.

When a Republican is in office they can do whatever the fuck they want due to Executive Privilege.

And I do mean ANYTHING.

Life in America!

[UnrepentantLiberal]

57. So if Republicans weren't playing fare,

why didn't Obama use the nuclear option instead of play golf with people who were trying to derail his presidency?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

118. He only gave platitudes in response to the Mic Check yesterday.

He's incapable of commitment.

[julian09]

162. Every jurisdiction is different

with the badge comes accountability for actions. Misuse of authority should be a crime and punished, not by a paid vacation.
Obama is not in charge of local or state govt. He is trying to get a jobs bill through, he doesn't need the distraction of the press going in two directions on whether he should defend OWS. He is for what OWS is for, on jobs, student loans, taxing the affluent, a congress that reflects the will of the people, not corporations. He doesn't have to say anything, his positions speak to that question. Ows doesn't acknowledge Obama as their spokesperson, so he will honor that. Right now he is trying to get jobs, while the Rethugs ARE doing their best to tank the economy, to defeat Obama in 2012. No mention of that here, maybe they are on "Republican Underground" or is that redundant with this site.

[EFerrari]

22. No, that's wrong. He took an oath to defend the Constitution

when he was inaugurated. We have every right to bitch at him, too.

[Pirate Smile]

26. You can bitch but a knowledge of civics should recognize that the local police are not the same as

the military which he does control.

I'm always surprised by how little people understand about who is in charge of what with regards to Federal, State & Local governments - and the three branches of Executive, Legislative & Judicial. The courts will have a more important say on whether local officials & cops are acting unconstitutionally.

[EFerrari]

31. I always surprised at how people expect their strawmen to be taken seriously.

[Owlet]

48. Obama has no authority over a cop in Cairo, either

..but that hasn't stopped him from speaking out against the violence there. We have a Bill of Rights in this country. You'd think the President could say a word or two about police action in THIS country when those rights are violated. I understand that he has no authority over the NYPD. We all get that. But he is the President of he United States. He is a very articulate speaker. He should be speaking about citizens being pepper-sprayed. By remaining silent, he is perceived by many to be tacitly approving police misbehavior.

[UnrepentantLiberal]

58. +1

And that's why he's getting mic checked by high school students.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[concord]

124. well said ... It's not like he hasn't gotten involved in local issues before

Wasn't there something about a cop arresting a black man in his own house, then both of them sitting down for a photo-op beer with Obama a few weeks later? If he can do that, he can certainly say something about OWS. Jeesh.

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[julian09]

172. Didn't cops take oath to serve and protect public

Obama didn't tell The Tea Party in 2010, not to take guns to rallies, or to let people speak, not to display racist signs. Nobody complained then, specially here.

[Lorien]

89. Answer post #6. He condemned police brutality in EGYPT where he has NO

AUTHORITY. He won't do the same here because he has no problem with our police beating peaceful protesters.

[nadinbrzezinski]

94. When there are egregious civil rights violations

The federal government has jurisdiction...precedent. Ike's use of federal forces and JFK's use of same federal forces.

Some of us did read 'thing on that history. The reasons not to intervene we're precisely the same you are giving. I am not sure you want to be in that company.

Oh and yes...these are civil right violations.

[eilen]

137. So theoretically, he can coopt the National Guard and

station them strategically to protect the protesters freedoms. He can also fly drones overhead to record the police infringing on our freedoms and then use that evidence prosecute them in Federal Court. Being the Commander in Chief of the US Military (instead of the Commandeerer of Beef).

[Tesha]

248. He had his fingers crossed. (NT)

[coalition_unwilling]

30. Silence equals consent. Obama took an oath to see that the

laws were faithfully enforced. The 1st and 4th amendments are part of the law he's supposed to enforce. So when the cops violate those laws Obama is derelict in his duty if he does and says nothing.

[julian09]

175. The Gov took the oath as well and it is his duty to enforce laws nt

[Smarmie Doofus]

47. ......

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=Obama+Bloomberg+golf&hl=en&biw=1440&bih=710&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=qzoYB7JU7w3vZM:&imgrefurl=http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/01/is-obama-courting-bloomberg-for-his-administration/&docid=xkk2Gi1nj1xTaM&imgurl=%253Fw%253D300&w=300&h=225&ei=Zd3MToKtIobf0QG0naAL&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=210&vpy=418&dur=742&hovh=180&hovw=240&tx=100&ty=150&sig=108518112680049804657&page=1&tbnh=164&tbnw=219&start=0&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:0

[progressoid]

69. Yep. Just like Kennedy allowed George Wallace to block those two kids from attending

the University of Alabama.

Oh, wait. Never mind.

[Pirate Smile]

75. There was a court order. People are just skipping the steps in the process. Obama isn't going to

send in federal agents against state & local authorities unless you get to a point where state and local authorities are refusing to comply with Federal Court orders.

Everyone keeps ignoring all the steps necessary in challenging state and local authorities.

A little realism, please.

[freedom fighter jh]

249. Looking at the big picture doesn't mean being unrealistic, but it often means skipping steps.

So let me spell them out for you.

How do you get a court order? You bring the action to court (press charges or sue), make the best case you can, and hope the judge gives you the order you need to effect a just outcome.

How do you bring the issue to court? It's been said several times here that only states and municipalities have authority over the cops' actions, presumably because it's only state and local laws that are being violated. But that's a vast assumption. Obama should assign someone to review federal law to find mechanisms to enforce the First and Fourth Amendments (as has already been suggested on this thread), as well as statutes addressing assault and whatever other crimes the cops seem to be committing. Where trouble looks likely, he should send federal troops to arrest state and local officers when they do violate the law. If trouble breaks out unexpectedly someplace, most likely there will be plenty of videotape still making it possible to arrest and try officers.

It is a fundamental principle of our government, stated in the Declaration of Independence, that it is government's duty to ensure citizens' rights. Obama and his team are smart people. Let them figure out a way to do what we're paying them to do.

It is this attitude that "we don't have the legal authority/money/time/energy to deal with your concern" that is making people feel disenfranchised.

[tblue]

117. I know, right?

Pathetic.

[Lorien]

86. Obama had no authority over Eqyptian authorites, yet he called upon them

to allow free speech and assembly without threat of violence. That's what the bully pulpit is for!

[Fantastic Anarchist]

120. Lorien, everytime you bring that up, Pirate Smile has ignored you.

I've kept wanting to say the same thing, and boop, your post is already there, and so the further I keep reading, I've noticed he doesn't respond to that point. Each and every time.

I've noticed, too, that Obama likes to look forward. War crimes? Look forward. The people who you govern are getting beaten? Look forward. The guy is in campaign mode, so don't expect him to be bothered by us rabble rousers.

[rhett o rick]

130. Pres Obama is counting on getting reelection support from conservative Democrats

the Old REpublicons. If he takes a progressive stand, he would lose votes with the New Democrats, The Third Way.

Also his corporate sponsors wouldnt be happy either.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

132. Exactly.

Which is an indictment on the system we have.

[rhett o rick]

154. I think we are being maneuvered into a one party system. The good news

it's call the Democratic Party, but bad news it's conservative.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

170. Bingo!

[Marrah_G]

96. Because you can't be upset with numerous people at the same time!

[roguevalley]

109. funny how when things got violent in the south during the civil

rights movement -another movement about rights- presidents did step in. Of course, they aren't panty waist demi-dems like now. They actually did what they said they would do. HE HAS TO FRICKING SAY SOMETHING! How the HELL does the crap he says about Egypt supposed to mean something when he IGNORES what happens here?

GOd, I wish he were primaried.

[julian09]

179. Has he said anything on the new Egypt Crisis

He better say something or they will bitch, if he does they will bitch more.

[rhett o rick]

128. You insult me with your post.

I do hold local authorities responsible, what makes you think otherwise?

I never expect Pres Obama to do the ENTIRE job of Congress. Where did you get that?

I do not expect Pres Obama to back OWS.

Here is what I do expect. Now tell me how this is wrong.

I expect Pres Obama to speak out against obvious police brutality. That's the morally right thing to do.

[Fire Walk With Me]

5. Thank you for #Occupying, hang in there, fixing it is what it's all about.

Of course that's easy for me to say from a computer and not from a tent. Respect to you!

[joshguitar]

10. heh heh heh

I live in Brooklyn and had been going home nights. I volunteer for a working group and attend as many Direct Actions as possible though. I guess Im just frusrated and feel that the narrative has been so twisted and spun by the media. Even the Times reported that a bloody protester pictured from Thursday "fell down and hurt his face while resisting arrest"

The nypd was seizing cameras after they beat and tackled him. This is America?

[truedelphi]

17. It's not an America that most people want.

I was surprised to be out with a group of Occupy folks in downtown Santa Rosa, and I can't claim any brutality or even so much as a sneer from the cops.

But the locals honked, and support seemed to be that for every fifty cars going by, fifteen people honked, waved, or rolled down their windows to talk. Only one would bellow out something like "Get a job." (Friday night at 7Pm - how many people even work then?)

I felt battered today to hear on the news that the Santa Rosa tents were taken down by the cops today, and those tents were put in dumpsters and hauled away. You have seen far far worse, so it's probably pretty normal to feel down about all this. If you need a break, take one.

But I think people are jazzed about this. Give yourself a huge pat on the shoulder for this - you are making history.

[Fire Walk With Me]

20. Please do an OP on this, even if it's only cutting and pasting what you've already written

so more people will know :(

:hug:

[julian09]

181. They should be ready to post pictures as soon as they are taken

It doesn't seem to be legal to seize cameras, should have video of that. Could throw it to someone if something incriminating to cop is on it.

[bluestate10]

207. "The nypd was seizing cameras after they beat and tackled him. This is America?"

Video can be uploaded instantly. To win you must understand how best to fight. If the video of the protester getting abused was not viral the instant the attack was happening, anyone there with a camera failed to plant the seeds that would have been powerful wedges against attempts to distort what happened.

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. Welcome to du brother or sister

:hi:

[joshguitar]

13. thanks

I ve been a lurker for awhile. Just needed a forum today. Thanks for being one

[Fantastic Anarchist]

121. Welcome aboard, comrade!

:toast:

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Davis_X_Machina]

12. Mah nishtanah halayla ...n/t

[freedom fighter jh]

250. "What makes this night different"?

I don't get it. What are you saying?

[jberryhill]

18. Gonna pole vault right over Gov. Cuomo?

How's about this:

You go to federal court. Get an injunction. Have the city appeal it. Lose the appeal, Appeal that ruling to the Supreme Court, and THEN have the city violate it.

Because at that point, you get federal troops sent in by the president.

[truedelphi]

23. The President who is seeing to it that the medical marijuana

Clinics don't have the product needed by elderly MS patients, and dying cancer patients, that President is going to do what? after just which Supreme Court is going to rule on the side of Occupy?

[frylock]

88. is that what they did in libya?

[truedelphi]

27. K & R

Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your passion and your intention.

Everyone at Occupy! has my deepest regards.

[coalition_unwilling]

29. Obama is a 1%er - n/t

[ellisonz]

32. He's been a lawyer, a college lecturer, a state senator, a U.S. Senator, and a best-selling author.

I'd say he's earned his wealth and has paid his obligated taxes.

[coalition_unwilling]

33. As long as the police are violating the rights of citizens who

question the privilege of the 1%, Obama won't say a word or lift a finger.

Whatevs. I won't get fooled again.

[ellisonz]

34. I'm not going to engage in that debate as it's already been had dozens of times on DU..

You're entitled to your opinion. However, you did entirely dodge my argument about the nature of wealth in relation to the "1%":shrug:

[coalition_unwilling]

76. Even if I grant you that all of the Obamas' wealth has been legitimately

earned by the sweat of his and Michelle's brow, critical analysis requires that we ask whose interests Obama represents: those of the 99% or those of the 1%.

I actually don't think Obama's personal wealth puts him in the 1% (more like the top 10%). However, when I wrote originally that "Obama is a 1%er," that's a figure of speech to suggest that his interests lie with the 1% and not with the 99% and, so, that's whom Obama represents.

Is Obama less of a slug than any of the Repukes? Sure, but that's damning him with faint praise (and no offense to slugs either).

Edited for garbled syntax.

[eilen]

139. Comparing Obama to the Republican opposiition

"Is Obama less of a slug than any of the Repukes? Sure, but that's damning him with faint praise (and no offense to slugs either)."

I believe that is called "grading on a curve."

[julian09]

182. Should be edited stupidity

[joshguitar]

35. agreed

My problem isn t with his earned wealth, its the fact that like all politicians he is utterly beholden to the corporate donors who put him there. The very donors we protest are his bosses. This is not in the interest of the General Welfare

[ellisonz]

36. "utterly beholden to the corporate donors"

How so? Be more specific, what exactly has he done to benefit them that he would not have done otherwise?

For Obama, 47 percent of money raised has come from individuals who have donated $200 or less, while 27 percent has come from persons who have donated $2,300 or more.

For McCain, the numbers are nearly the opposite, with 26 percent of donations coming from people who have donated $200 or less and 49 percent from individuals who have donated $2,300 or more.

http://factcheck.org/2008/07/average-campaign-contributions/

[joshguitar]

39. sure

I can name a ton of things that would be different were not he and his entire party bought (just slightly slightly less than the Repubs) by corporations.

1) Single payer Health care. His Health Bill is so watered down so as to be virtually ineffective. The only advantage we can thus far reap is the inability to drop folks for existing conditions. Im all for reform, but its really just a watered down givaway to private insurers. He caved. He caved because his party is beholden to big health and
big pharm.

2) Bush tax cuts. One could argue that failing to repeal them is not his fault but ultimately he never really tried. No one in his entire party made much of an effort
beyond some hyperbole and saber rattling in public, with skepticism in the chambers.

3) Being two years later than promised in leaving Iraq. I don t think its a conspiracy theory to suggest that this was due to making certain our energy interests are protected. US private investment ranks in the billions in Iraq and they syphon billions more from the gov through its need for some jobs to be handled by private contractors.

4) Bailouts started under Bush and amplified by Obama that focused much more on helping exploitive banks spread sheets that owned both parties than any kind of "New Deal" public works. His promises to create millions of "shovel ready" jobs became a Tea Bag point of mockery. Just more corporate welfare.

5) Solyndra. It may have happened without his say but it still happened on his watch.

6) His silence on JP Morgan (a very large Obama Donor) on giving 3.5 million to the nypd 6 weeks ago

7) BUT MOST TELLING: his failure to even address k street lobbyist influence or election reform despite countless empty promises to do so. Its the revolving door it has been for decades.

I voted for the man. I don t think I can rationalize doing it again. Im sorry Mr President, on your watch it has changed from "one person, one vote" to "one dollar, one vote"

respect

[ellisonz]

44. Yeah no...

1. The Health Care Bill is not "watered down." It passed by 7 votes in the House and and 10 votes in the Senate. You should look again at the actual contents of the bill. If it did nothing, they wouldn't be so opposed to it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Provisions

2. All 42 Republican Senators pledged to block all legislation in the lame-duck session until the tax matter was settled.<30><31> - Obama said, "I'm not willing to let working families across this country become collateral damage for political warfare here in Washington. And I'm not willing to let our economy slip backwards just as we're pulling ourselves out of this devastating recession. ... So, sympathetic as I am to those who prefer a fight over compromise, as much as the political wisdom may dictate fighting over solving problems, it would be the wrong thing to do. ... As for now, I believe this bipartisan plan is the right thing to do. It’s the right thing to do for jobs. It’s the right thing to do for the middle class. It is the right thing to do for business. And it’s the right thing to do for our economy. It offers us an opportunity that we need to seize."<37> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_tax_cuts#Extension_of_Bush_tax_cuts

3. He did push back the withdrawal date. There were and continue to be major regional security concerns in the region. At the end of this year we will have no armed forces personnel in Iraq. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7914061.stm

4. Do you understand what would have happened if the banks had constricted cash flow? They've now largely paid back the loans with interest. The stimulus blunted an even heavier decline in jobs. I personally had a job funded by the stimulus and only wish it had been bigger and longer lasting.

5. Solyndra is small fry and there's been no hint of administration official malfeasance beyond the Energy Department. Compared to the previous administration...

6. Obama does not regulate the NYPD.

7. Obama on can only do as much as Congress is willing to do. He's undertaken major initiatives to make sure the Executive Branch is ethical and transparent: http://www.whitehouse.gov/21stcenturygov

[joshguitar]

45. nice

Thanks for the resources. I very much look forward to making a point by point response, but first I have to sleep for a few hours. talk soon!

[joshguitar]

104. Alright SLEEP IS GOOD!

I feel so much better,

I would like to point out that this a bit of a digression first, but I think it is one worth having. I would also like to point out that some people on this forum seem to suffer from a disease called Hyper-Partisanship which doesn't allow them to see any mistakes by Obama. That is not a productive or honest mindset (I don't imply you misled anyone but yourself though) I also think you and I have much more common ground than you think. I believe our main point of divergence is that I do not believe the Democratic Party can any longer address the beautiful ideas it has stood for in the 20th Century. I believe K street and Wall Street have taken over.

Healthcare: SINGLE PAYER. Come on, you know they sold out. And the mandatory insurance will add "total national health expenditures" by more than $200 billion from 2010-2019 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act#Change_in_number_of_uninsured) Giveaway. Seriously. Also I would like to point out the fact that just because Republicans fought it doesn't mean a damn thing, they fight every bill a D proposes. It's corporate welfare

Bush Tax Cuts...ummmm. I love how when Obama uses the bully bulpit to pass something you credit him, but when he does not it's"out of his jurisdiction". I sense a disconnect here.

We agree on Iraq. He broke a campaign promise.

Stimulus: I'm glad it gave you a job! That's what it should have done more of! I wish the money had gone to more jobs just like instead of Bank of America, which by the way to answer your question STILL isn't giving loans. And if they'd failed? Well here: http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2011/09/22/big-bank-bailouts/

IT WOULD SUCK. The answer is to not allow BANKING MONOPOLIES. Too big to fail is too big to exist. But noooo...the bank lobby would never allow that. THEY MUCH PREFER FREE MONEY!!!!!

Solyndra: we agree. it is small fry and I said in my post it wasn't the admins fault but it was perpetrated by the Dems. And It's still a bad symbol that happened on his watch. But I can let it go..you're right about it not being as bad as GW

Obama the NYPD and JP Morgan: "Obama does not regulate the NYPD" it is also very clear he does not regulate his close buddies and campaign contributors at JP Morgan.

As for transparency. I applaud those steps, but he could easily have spent political capital on reforming the lobby system isntead of caving of health care. The same fallacy in your argument applies here. When he does something he is lauded, when he doesn't it's "not his jurisdiction"

Look, you seem like a very intelligent person and I love that you source your information. I think we agree fundamentally on many things. I just believe we should expect more from the leaders of this great nation.

There is a better way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Respect,

Josh

[ellisonz]

163. I expect better of the voters.

2010 was an unacceptable slide backwards and has slowed the recovery dramatically. I find fault with the President sometimes and when I do so I speak up. For example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x2371974

I just try to call them as I see them. I do not see a viable route for a third party nor do I believe the party of FDR, Harry Truman, JFK, Jimmy Carter and Howard Dean is worth giving up on. That is the old Nader fallacy and it brought us 8 years of Dubya.

[joshguitar]

183. i agree

that right now 3rd party is not viable (though I would like to see us work towards that).

I believe the solution is eay to point out: Term limits, limits on campaign donations, repeal of corp personhood, tight rules and total transparency on All political advertising. Im even willing to give up the rights of Unions to contribute to pols if the pukes put a leash on the K street dogs.

But good luck with special interests allowing THAT to pass, much less career politicians.

[freedom fighter jh]

251. +1 and I would add . . .

not stopping or at least slowing down illegal foreclosures.

Many house foreclosures are illegal because banks can't find the paperwork to support them and no one really knows who owns the property and thus has the right to foreclose. By the time homeowners get to court they can't defend themselves, even with the facts clearly on their side, because they are out of resources.

This is an outrage. Obama should do something about it. Perhaps he could provide good legal assistance to people being foreclosed.

[rhett o rick]

131. It's not who you are, it's who you support. We The People or Corp-America.

He needs to take a side.

[Capitalocracy]

40. Thank you for your service. nt

[Itchinjim]

41. Bull shit.

20...

[joshguitar]

42. what is bullshit? /n.t

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CoffeeCat]

93. Our Des Moines OWS marched to Obama h-quarters...

I'm afraid this meme will soon be impossible to argue.

OWS was fueled, in part, by Obama's failures.

Our local OWS chapter marched to Obama headquarters and they held quite a rally
there--rallying against his failure to stop continual war, corporate corruption
in government, accountability for Wall Street--and the list goes on.

I am a former Obama precinct captain--and I couldn't be more disappointed in him.

[joshguitar]

98. huh...really?

I guess you would no doubr know "what ows says" better than me....

what does that even mean?

[lunatica]

146. Your pretense of ignorance is not impressive

[freedom fighter jh]

252. It means that if you can't support your position any other way,

you can always make a generalization so vast that no one can argue with it. Then provide zero support for it and no one can argue with the support.

Josh, it looks like someone wants to cut you down even if they can't argue with anything you've said.

[lunatica]

55. My thought too.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Smarmie Doofus]

46. He's truly our own "Silent Cal" ( Coolidge).

But I think Coolidge went to public schools; maybe even sent his kids there.

Thanks for stating the ( what should be friggin') obvious.


Second term: Hooverville?

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[GoCubsGo]

61. Glad to see I'm not the only one who noticed that... n/t

[Name removed]

105. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[joshguitar]

108. THANKS FOR THE NEGATIVITY!

Thank you for the senselessly negative input,

I would like to request that you not call me a liar in a public forum. DU has always struck me as a place to discuss ideas and ad hominems do not add to that process.

Just because you disagree with my opinion is no reason to attempt to smear my character. It is underhanded and shows your desperation. It is neither classy nor intelligent.

best,

a NY OWS'er

[awoke_in_2003]

230. Oh, you haven't seen young people...

pepper sprayed, man handled, and groped. Guess you have been watching Fox

on edit: not every one gets Current. Here you go:
http://current.com/

[Magoo48]

53. There is simply no excuse

for not speaking out in defense of the constitution he swore to defend.

[HappyMe]

56. I thought that the ows wanted to keep

a non-partisan air about them. They don't want to be co-opted by any party. The President has no control over what local police precincts do. Your fight is with those precincts and the police commissioner, not the President. I have a feeling that even if he did say something, then the complaint would be that he did not say enough, or said it wrong.

[TheKentuckian]

59. Standing up for our values and reaffirming natural rights isn't partisan.

[GoCubsGo]

60. Tell that to the MSM.

Those harpies are looking for every excuse they can as it is to make this a political thing.

[xiamiam]

64. defending the consitution is not partisan..anyone who misses that point, including the msm should be

called out
remember when they debated torture on tv...debated torture?..these kids see right thru it which is why the msm is becoming irrelevant..we're really not that stupid although if you watch tv..you would believe we dont get it...but most of us do

[GoCubsGo]

71. Yes, they need to be called out.

But, it's more than "those kids" involved here. Millions of people still watch that shit, and don't question it. They slurp up everything Brian Williams, and Scott Pelley, and Wolf Blitzer, and Diane Sawyer, and the rest say as if it's free Dom Perignon. The kids may get it, but a hell of a lot of their parents and grandparents still don't.

[SammyWinstonJack]

72. ++++

:thumbsup:

[treestar]

196. LOL! Why do you need the President to do that?

If the POTUS doesn't say something your rights are gone!

:rofl:

[TheKentuckian]

223. I don't "need" any such thing but some things can never be said enough.

Especially, in such times as our rights are under assault and are values seemingly adrift.

The way you receive information is strange with the distortion and avoidance of content.

[woo me with science]

82. Condemning violence and affirming our Constitutional rights are not partisan acts. nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

92. It's hardly partisan to express oneself consistently. Egypt, Syria, UC Davis, NYC, Portland...

Well we know which ones get mentioned by the president, don't we?

[robinlynne]

111. he certainly said something when they did the same thing in Egypt. quite strongly.

[AngryOldDem]

126. As I said downthread:

If he spoke out in any way, shape, or form -- for or against the movement -- it would only open up one more can of worms and be counterproductive to the extreme. It would be just the distraction that the GOP and Right wing pundits would jump on, exploit, twist, and misconstrue ad nauseam. Why walk into that trap?

I agree -- this is a local issue and needs to be resolved locally. Obama can't very well tell a city how to discipline its cops.

[eilen]

145. Counter productive for whom? nt

[AngryOldDem]

149. Say Obama makes a direct statement about OWS.

How do you think it will be spun? He (once again) will become the story, with the issues that the Occupy movement is protesting about taking a back seat.

[eilen]

156. I'm sure OWS is not afraid of Obama stealing their thunder lol. nt

[Sheepshank]

257. Is see this as the same group that wanted Obama in WI

What many don't understand is that the cumulative effect, is Obama pressing the agenda of a group to the exclusion of the entirety of the nation. This ty[e of crap is telling Obama who he should be disenfranchising and that is patently wrong. He is the President of the USA, not of OW or WI affiliates. I find it interesting tht both of these issues were State issues, and persons like the OP want the Feds to jump in...it just doesn't make any sense to me.

[eilen]

143. Boy, I'd like to know just what scenario you think would be

appropriate for our President to stand up for his constituents when they are being disenfranchised.

[treestar]

192. Ding ding ding

We have a winner!

Whatever the POTUS did say would be wrong too!

[OwnedByFerrets]

65. Thank you.

[mmonk]

74. I think he should treat us as well as he treated Egyptian protesters.

We certainly have been less destructive in our actions as far as response to police actions (I'm not trying to discredit their movement but compare reactions).

[coalition_unwilling]

77. You are an American hero and I salute you - n/t

[freedom fighter jh]

253. +1 Me too. n/t

[truth2power]

78. I find it quite interesting that Pres. Obama

was willing to speak, albeit facetiously, about protecting his two girls with a DRONE strike ferchrissakes. But when it comes to the events you've listed, above, and most importantly, the recent USD atrocity against young people who are the contemporaries of his children, he's mute.

Talk about rank hypocrisy!! x(

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[woo me with science]

83. K&R nt

[frylock]

84. you're not pissed, just a little frustrated is all..

that's what obama sez anyway.

[joshguitar]

106. +1 nt

[ProSense]

97. Here's a candidate

who's speaking up.

Maybe some of the protesters will throw their support his way.

[Name removed]

144. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

150. Since

"Are the DLC running out of money too?"

...that group no longer exists, it's pretty safe to say they are out of money.

That clue was free!

[AtomicKitten]

101. If he opens his mouth he's accused of trying to co-opt OWS & his silence earns him nasty epithets.

On this particular issue he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[AngryOldDem]

152. Exactly.

And the whole Occupy movement takes a hit as well. I don't know why this truth is so difficult for some to grasp. It's best that he just stay out of it. A classic damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation, for sure, but anything he says will be taken out of context and used as ammo against him, as well as the occupiers. Just the distraction the 1%-ers and Right wingers would cheerfully jump on.

[julian09]

188. Don't you mean on THIS SITE

He's damed if he does or doesn't.

[treestar]

197. Amen!

The minute he says a word about it, they are all over him that it's wrong!

[uponit7771]

258. +1!!!

[BlueIris]

102. If you were expecting better from him you were expecting too much.

He has a proven track record of avoidance on even deadly serious matters of national security. What made you think OWS would merit his esteemed attention?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

107. If he can figure out a way to get campaign contributions from OWS he will speak out.

Of course they'd have to exceed the contributions from the folks OWS is protesting against.

[slay]

112. I know it's kind of sad. I'm sure there are those who think #OWS should form a lobbying group

and play that bullshit game. i am not one of those people - and #OWS isn't either - they know the system is corrupt. And Obama is certainly a large part of the very system that is failing so many. he's chosen his side - and it's the side of the rich and Wall St. i hope he changes his mind, but i don't think he will.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

113. I whole-heartedly agree.

Obama hedges.

I don't need a hedger. I want a fighter.

[sandyj999]

122. I thought maybe he didn't know about it.

He's been so quiet.

[Sheepshank]

123. Bull.....

....for one thing he has spoken to OW. Just not to your likeing apparently.

Second, it's not his job to "take on" the cause of a group of people who have a message. It's for the people to do that. It's his job to recognize and act with policy making.

[AngryOldDem]

125. +1

Spot on.

Don't blame Obama if the group has no real organization and can't effectively make its own case to the public. If Obama spoke out for or against the Occupy movement, it would just be another sideshow distraction none of us needs right now. Let the man do his job.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

134. How's about speaking out about civil and human rights?

We're not asking him to take up our cause. We already know he won't. We're just asking him to remind everyone that we ALL have rights in this country, not just his campaign donors.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

151. They're sticking with their talking points., ignoring what

we're REALLY discussing here.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

133. The same fucking tired straw man argument.

We're not asking for him to take up a "cause."

We're asking him to speak out about civil and human rights violations, as he's done so eloquently for other people in other nations across the world.

Good fucking grief. What's with the straw men from the worshipers of the status quo?

Oh, and by the way, he didn't speak to OWS, he chanted a couple of platitudes about being "frustrated" and such. Big fucking whoop.

[Sheepshank]

157. Even more bull

of course you are asking him to speak out for this particular cause...so much shit and you try and pretend is smells like a sweet fragrance. Pressing any President to vocally rally for one particular cause is misguided and frankly as naive as it gets.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

160. Another straw man. Try again.

[Sheepshank]

203. I dont think straw man means what you think it means n/t what a joke

[Fantastic Anarchist]

213. Incorrect. Please go again.

[tridim]

141. Obama will loose if he makes himself a "cop hater" or "against law and order"

No, I don't believe he would be either if/when he comes out in support of OWS, but that is EXACTLY how he'd be labeled in the media and by Republicans. It would be brutal.

My view on Obama's position is that he supports the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, therefore he supports OWS and is against Police brutality. It is not a strech to assume these things since it applies to all Americans who support the Constitution.

Yea, politics suck, but the reality is we can not lose in 2012. It is not an option.

[Bluenorthwest]

191. Unless some cop hassles Skip Gates, then he calls them out

and makes a national fuss. Gates not sprayed nor beaten, one man, just one, and Obama spoke out. So your song and dance sort of falls apart when that fact is considered. He was willing to make a huge scene for his friend, not a word for thousands of Americans. Pathetic.

[ProSense]

142. Something just dawned on me

"I have seen young girls beaten, pepper sprayed and groped by the NYPD."

...where are Governor Cuomo and AG Schneiderman? That's a serious accusation: the NYPD groping young girls.

[gulliver]

147. Sure you are.

Do you have an OWS ID? How are we supposed to believe you are who you say you are? I just finished a 20-year stint building wells in Somalia, by the way. I donated 20 gallons of blood in the last ten years, and two kidneys.

[joshguitar]

153. OWS ID? huh....

sigh...you realize that the organization here is loose at best? OWS I.D? Wow, I had no idea this could be so misunderstood. As for division, I'm not being divisive I'm merely pointing out that the government has failed us in many respects. Making the world a better place is the goal of this movement. If it's easier for you to make up your own reality feel free. Or even better, come join me at a march. Hold your gov accountable, that;s how you make a difference, not by mindlessly defending them.

I did not expect the Ad Hominems and straw men from DU. It makes me sad.

I realize its much easier to attempt to discredit me than to listen.

Godspeed you blind and deaf folks out there.

To all who would hold this great country to higher ideals,

Thank you for the positivity,

J

[gulliver]

155. Sure n/t

[Sheepshank]

158. hate rhetoric towards Obama, by a newbie on a Dem site makes me sad too

We have no real idea who you are other than lumping every single cop as a groper, and a hate for a President that doesn't agree with your broad brush sstroke. Deal with it.

[joshguitar]

161. not hate, expectations for more

I want this great country to live up to its ideals. I want its appointed leader to defend those ideals. If you choose to cover your eyes to a clear cynical and willful silence by Mr President ignoring what is a terrible civil rights violation...

Im not sure you really care to make this country better, merely defend its current admin.

As for your ad hominem attempt to discredit me by calling me a "noob", well aside from it being an attack on me rather than my position it is also untrue. If you check my profile you will find I ve been here for a while. I just mostly read. Yesterday I had something I wanted to share with a group of people who share some of my ideas about social justice. If you don t like the truth I bring that is certainly your right. Discrediting me in your apologist defense of a HUMAN being (who like us all is certainly fallable) makes you appear to be part of the problem not the solution.

I ask only that we hold our leaders accountable.

Best

[Sheepshank]

164. no ad hominem anything.

questioning why you came to a Dem site to post this is not ad hominem, it's a valid curiosity. Not buying much of any of your OP for one thing. so the rest just follows.

And you are not sure about what I stand for, but you go ahead and make some stupid assed assumption anyway? Not buying that tack either.

Your tack, your assumptions, your entrance, and now your attempt at noble discourse did all the discrediting for me...nothing I said did that.

[joshguitar]

176. came here to post this because

it is the truth. And I wanted to show that truth to people whom I believe share with me a vision of social justice.

Many obviously do.

But you seem more interested in shooting the messenger.

[Sheepshank]

204. your version of the truth...not interested n/t

Plenty of RW sites to peddle your truth

[joshguitar]

209. oh for sure!

there are SO many anti-corporate, Universal Healthcare, anti-corruptin websites.

Try saying something productive please. Better yet, get off your high horse and attack someone who deserves it.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

167. Hyperbole, straw men, red herrings

That's all you have.

[Bluenorthwest]

201. When people call criticism of Obama's actions 'hate' I like to

ask them what they then call his view that some Americans are not worthy of equal rights. If criticism of an action is hate, then opposing a person's rights must be worse than hate, a throbbing contempt, a raging irrational psychotic obsession? What would you call it? Blind, ignorant scapegoating? Hallucinatory, discriminatory disliking?

[Fantastic Anarchist]

159. Some of us are with you.

[joshguitar]

165. thanks, perhaps

we will meet one another on Friday

[joshguitar]

168. thanks, perhaps

we will meet one another on Friday

[treestar]

193. This is the internet

Where no proof is needed.

:hi:

[lob1]

177. K & R. Welcome to DU, joshguitar.

[joshguitar]

185. thanks! /nt

[shellgame26]

178. waaaaaaaaagh!!! Obama stole my lunch!

Is this the poutrage of the week? If he did exactly what you wanted him to you would just find something else to whine about. No wonder you all have to band together, if you left the echo chamber you would realize how ridiculously petty you are.

What a pathetic lot...

[pacalo]

184. There are times when a politician's sense of decency must not only be revealed, but shouted.

Political ramifications should be valued less than the lives & the rights of these peaceful, respectful protesters who are giving the politicians the morally correct message.

I'm not impressed that a commander-in-chief who inherited two wars didn't speak up when a veteran of one of these wars, Scott Olsen, was disrespected by being shot from behind. Or when other veterans from any war were beaten by fascist-minded police.

I expect more from a former scholar/professor of constitutional law.

Movements like these require years & years of fed-upness with unjust economic policies & laws and unjust social conditions. This isn't going away until changes are made. To ignore their message & to stand passively by as these protesters' rights are being literally stomped on is to show the nation & the world that our leaders are content with the status quo of our economic & social conditions & that the constitution is meaningless.

[joshguitar]

186. hear hear!!! +1000 well said. /nt

[pacalo]

187. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being involved in the occupy movement.

I can't be there in person, but I stand behind the protesters 100% when they have been respectful, peaceful, & so committed. Please continue in the same manner; it's very effective in winning hearts & minds.

Welcome to DU, joshguitar!

:hi:

[bluestate10]

189. Maybe you should learn how to protest.

If you didn't vote in November 2010, you have no fucking reason to complain. Nor anyone else that is whining now who did not vote. A more progressive Congress would have pushed for policy that is impossible under a republican strangled Congress. I respect people that have been struggling to feed families that are having problems buying food, or who are working their asses off to improve employment opportunities in america.

[joshguitar]

194. I invite you

to join me Friday perhaps you can show me what I ve been doing wrong these two months!!! lolz!

Oh, and I voted too. Why are you so mad?

[bluestate10]

200. I am mad because many of the people that take your point of view sat on their asses and let

fucking republican extremists take over government.

I have no intention of joining you. I prefer to fight for a better society using more effective techniques than getting pepper sprayed by assholes. Make real change, use your passion to start a company that build products on the mainland USA and treat it's workers like partners in that business. Or fucking work to figure out a way to bring fresh fruit and vegetables to poor people that are not full of chemicals and are not so expensive that those people have to take out loans to buy that produce.

I have no intention of embracing your concept of change, I have been working my whole life to bring about a more caring society and I think I know what the hell I am doing by now.

[joshguitar]

206. do what you will, sir

Just keep in mind that every American mass Social movement started in the streets.

And also please keep in mind that you don t know me. :D

Its quite possible I canvassed in Jersey all Summer against Chris Christie proposals.

Quite possible Im volunteering to give out food tomorrow while you bitch to your family about OWS.

At any rate though, Friday I shall be sharpening my protest skills. I hope that at some point they live up to your expectations. :D

best,
J

[Sheepshank]

210. Oh boy are you selling your noblilty n/t

[TriMera]

217. Yes, because working to maintain the status quo has worked

so well. I don't think you need to tell this kid or the rest of us how to bring about change for the better. We've been patient long enough. Your way doesn't work.

[bluestate10]

233. Then, recruit and field candidates for political office that do things your way.

And have them win. There is one simple way to solve this debate. Get after it. Until you are willing to lay it all on the line, you get what people that are willing to lay it all on the line dictate that you get. I was sickened by the whining by so called progressives over a $5 a month fee when teabaggers will put crumpled ten dollar bills in an envelop and send it off to anyone that claims to represent their point of view and they religiously listen to a buffoon like Limbaugh, raising his ratings and keeping that asshole in business. You should get over your overwhelming sense of your moral purity and outrage over anything that is not 100% perfect to you, even when it is 98% perfect.

[julian09]

212. I voted seems there are some here with the agenda of discouraging

others to vote. I'm very much a OWS supporter but now it's time for a new direction to get something happening for the 99%.
Soon we have to use the political process to change things; we have a nation of laws and can only accomplish our goals with new laws and legislators.
It's time to evaluate the candidates for the election less than a year away; regardless of party, changes must be made in favor of the 99%.
Take a look at the candidates, incumbents record on issues, name names and publicize anti 99% votes.
Jesse Lagreca, the guy who schooled Fox reporters, who thought they had a dummy, were really surprised at his knowledges.
Well he has been on the Ed Show MSNBC a few times and said that the political process is the way to go, get rid of the Dinos, he named Sen Nelson Dino of Neb for one.
Neb are you listening, do you have a real dem candidate, who will vote with democrats. Instead of Complaining about Obama, see if you can get him a few more democrats in both houses.

[bluestate10]

195. I looked over the Ayes to your OP. The most corrosive Obama attackers on DU.

Explain to me why in the fuck Obama should side with them instead of people like me and others that constantly fight against the lies and distortions those people bring to DU? I will not give them a fucking inch and neither should President Obama.

[Bluenorthwest]

205. Obama is opposed to my equal rights so I criticize that and his

in this case his crave and pitiful spineless silence in the face of history. This OP now has 137 recs, many,many agree with the OP, and a predictable few of you, none of whom support any political goals most of us have, whine to hear the truth.
Obama steamed in public when his pal Skip Gates got ruffled wrongly by the cops, he held meetings and the works. Now, with thousands of arrests and hundreds of attacks on peaceful protesters, the same man is silent. The difference is stark, and is casual disregard for these acts of brutality are being noticed all over the world.
And you, what you add is characterizations of those you do not agree with, not a shred of countering fact. For Obama, of course.

[bluestate10]

214. Obama is not opposed to your civil rights.

I don't care how many RECs the OP has, the post is just another illustration of the whining and tendency toward ineffective street action that has paralyzed the left for more than three decades. Maybe it is time to use technology and backbone to bring about real and lasting positive change to society.

If your point of view is so right and popular, why are national republicans in a position to slow and outright block ANY initiative that President Obama and democrats in Congress attempt? You need to recognize that learning how to step before trying to run is a good plan and usually works.

[joshguitar]

211. ummm...

well I don t see how affirming civil rights and standing up against unconstitional, violent and organized abuse is picking sides.

This sounds like an issue you have with some DU ers not me.

keep fighting the fight out there! just make sure its the right targets you re punching.

respect,

[bluestate10]

216. Maybe you should spend more time on DU.

Many of the people responding favorably to your attack have been spending months with post after post attacking President Obama and democrats in some of the most raw and corrosive terms imaginable. Who in the hell would want to fight for people like that. Since their net effect is not better than teafucks, flipping a coin to decide who to ignore is the only sane choice that President Obama has.

[julian09]

226. I don't see any Obama signs at the protests , he doesn't want

to damage their independence. What is outrageous in not Obamas silence, but Fox News, siding with he cops, their description of protesters and their status.
They always attack the messenger as they did the Cain accusers. Newt Gingrich vile comments about ows go unnoticed. Where is the outrage about what Fox is trying to do to the
movement day in day out; compared to Obama not telling cops what they already know they should do. What they should do is go big time after Fox, Shawn, Bill etc.
I remember early on they had signs "FOX NEWS LIES" they should keep it up. A lot of media picks it up on news casts.

[joshguitar]

231. good point /nt

[bluestate10]

235. You aren't from these parts are you?

The types amening this OP would much rather attack and demonetize democrats than they would attack the rightwing and Fox News. Yet, they are blind to their lack of balance and simple commonsense. With a teafuck, I know what I am fighting. It is tougher for me to get a fix on would be progressives, but I do know that some are corrosive democrat haters while many of the rest are followers that don't think critically about the choices that they are making.

[Name removed]

199. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sheepshank]

208. Why not form a fucking anti Obama site then?

so many of you, 137 of you, could easily form an anti Obama site and slap yourselves silly on the back for being so clever in establishing and supporting and aiding the RW crapola....that is the real enemy here.

You don't get one fucking inch from me when your apparent action does nothing but add to the RW meme that Obama is no good...leaving them the only good option? Really? Find a fucking candidate that will is willing to run and can win...This isn't it. You do nothing...nothing, but promote RW and I just don't understand how you could do that. Groups like you whine that Obama is just like the RW, and forget you sound like one yourselves.

[joshguitar]

218. wow...

You sure are mad.

Listen, don't be angry because I want this great country to live up to its ideals. I am sad that you view this as some sort of attack from the RW. The most ironic part of this is that the RW you keep bringing up thinks that OWS is an astro-turfing effort by Obama.

They could not be more wrong. I feel you, also are under a false impression.

If I see a fault I will raise it publicly. And I think we can both agree that is what this country was founded on.

I will not stand by and allow the party that has stood for so many beautiful things in the 20th century be bought by K street and Wall Street.

I am not your enemy. The RW is not my master. I feel that corporate interests have come damn near running this country. enough is enough.

Im sorry if that angers you.

Godspeed,
J

[bluestate10]

224. You know nothing about how to fight.

Moderates are a better group to cultivate than the OWS people. If you don't think that the right is a serious threat to you and your point of view then you seriously have your priorities mixed up. I truly don't care much for some of the views of those alleging that they are progressives here on DU. But I know that if they are true progressives they are far less of a threat to me than rightwingers. So I would accept fighting elbow to elbow with progressives to eliminate rightwingers, if progressives would only accept that arrangement instead of insisting on some mythical idea of a pure solution. Once rightwingers have been neutralized, I am more than willing to settle my difference with progressives, but not until then.

[Sheepshank]

256. No you are not standing by

joshguitar>"I will not stand by and allow the party that has stood for so many beautiful things in the 20th century be bought by K street and Wall Street."


you are aiding and abetting the very party this site is against and what all Dems should be against.

[shellgame26]

219. I'm convinced half of them are birthers

They sure do sound like it!

[joshguitar]

225. alright....gj being WAY misinformed. gratz. /nt

[Fantastic Anarchist]

244. You're just weird.

Birthers? Really?

I've spent just as much time, if not more time, fighting them, than I have fighting people like you. And frankly, they were a better fight. At least they really believed the stupid shit they were spewing. I don't believe for a second you think any of us are "birthers."

[bluestate10]

220. BRO, you are wasting your time.

If that crowd have not figured out how fucked up their tactics are by now, they won't. I have concluded that it is wiser to fight them and the rightwingers. Better to join with moderates than to spend precious time trying to convince the fucking lost that they are about to jump off a cliff.

[joshguitar]

227. and yet here you are...

You know 32,650 marched across the BK bridge on nov 17th according to NYPD police scanners? Most of them Union members, hardly birthers or RW ers. You realize that this conversation has gone global? It is sad that you are so deeply opposed to this dialogue. You keep saying we don t know how to fight... maybe thats why we decide to keep it peaceful.

Its a shame that you attack something that has inspired a leftist movement across borders and generations. My family is staunchly Union. Our government has become staunchly corporatist. When you dismiss all but mod Dems you re really just letting industry grow more powerful. They have fooled you into thinking they should not be your targets.

I work for the Working Families Party here in NYC. I canvass for many Dems on the regular. They are bought too. Im tired of crooks buying my party.

I think we must disgree on tactics, but I m sure neither of us lack conviction or good intent.

namaste brother,

[bluestate10]

229. One poster asked a salient question.

If you don't think democrats represent you, why don't you recruit and field candidates that you think do represent you, and have them win election? Why don't you? The fact is that you can't. My frustration with OWS was that elements that DID want anarchy and violence were allowed to infiltrate the movement, those assholes committed acts that produced rightwing talking points. Leaderless movements that don't or can't clearly articulate core principles don't inspire for long, even if they initially capture the hopes and desires of many that are not part of the movement but are watching it with sympathy for it.

[joshguitar]

234. GREAT QUESTION!

That's going to take a few minutes to answer.. Ok here goes. (Im on a phone so please forgive any mispellings)

The reason OWS never issued "demands" is because from the beginning all were welcome to join. Demands would have fractured an emerging populist movement. Instead we focused on dialogue. This country was built on dialogue in the Town Hall. OWS attempted to foster the sense of community that used to make gov work. That sense of community has been eroded by a variety of interests, but because we in the US are split it is easier to control us. The foot soldiers and initial organizers were certainly leftist, but the goal was to create a meme that wasn't about "Left-Right" but "Bottom Up". This was only partially successfull though. While it was certainly Grass Roots it ended up mostly liberal: which I personally think drew so many youth at first.

When the populace unites they affect the national conversation and that affects change.

Much like the civil rights movement, or the Vietnam protests.

We also succeeded in galvanizing the labor movement which was being attacked by govs nationwide. It was far more effective than any canvassing I have done. And the Unions supported us in turn.

Running candidates: perhaps a candidate will emerge but I doubt it. What I personally think you WILL see though are some leaders emerge. I think you will see some Direct Actions on DC.

At any rate it has changed the dialogue in this country. All pols will be careful with their rhetoric about Wall Street for awhile (even Repubs), it has proven to be a mobilizing issue.

IMHO the next step should be "Occupy K Street"

best

[bluestate10]

236. The next step should be to organize the millions of voters that republicans are trying to

disenfranchise. Until those people are brought into and kept in the process no real permanent change will happen. Protesting K Street only will mean that more protesters will get hurt and get records.

[joshguitar]

237. i love that

I am sooooo into Universal Suffrage. I love that idea. Repub disenfrachisement is a huge issue.

I can t tell OWS what to do but as an individual I am all about involving people in the political process. I also think the more local elections you vote in, the more dramatic the effect you produce.

I believe though that what happens on the streets informs what happens in the polls. I dont see OWS taking an electoral stance just yet. The kinks in the process still need working out.

*Disclaimer*
All opinions and observations about OWS are purely my own. I am not an organizer either. I volunteer for a working group and attend the direct actions.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

245. But everything is only about "Republicans" and not about the system, man.

I mean, like, really.

Nevermind all the fellators of Obama, who I happened to have high hopes for and he's let me down, we're supposed to be submissive and servile to authority, as long as it is a Democratic prick. If it's a Republican prick, well, then, .... well, we can start acting like we are acting now!!!

Yay!

People just don't get it.

[joshguitar]

259. truth +1000 /nt

[Fantastic Anarchist]

243. You have no idea what you're talking about.

First: Did you consider that some people are going to be themselves and behave foolishly? Despite what most of us want? (nevermind that you have no idea what anarchy actually means).

Second: Did you think that there may be agents provocateurs? That the government wasn't going to try to infiltrate the movement and discredit it?

Third: What basis do you present your facts that "leaderless movements ... can't clearly articulate core principles?" What the fuck are you talking about? Have you even learned from history? Educate yourself.

You, SIR/MADAME, are the rightwing talking point you so decry, without realizing it or not.

I'm sorry to say, but those so opposed to OWS are the reactionaries now. That's a very harsh thing to say. But, there are those that aren't willing to actually progess. They talk a good fucking game. But when push comes to shove, they shout down those that actually have the chutzpah and the ideas.

I've seen nothing but the status quo cock suckers (yes, that's an ad hominem) actually throw ad hominems to the OP. You can go fuck yourselves, or perhaps, offer some constructive opinions and be a part of the movement. You can actually help guide it, or denigrate it. Whatever you do, pick a fucking side.

Carry on with your fucking shitty ass schedule.

[inna]

239. lol, what an absurd and despicable post; pure personal attack

[Number23]

241. It is always very telling that these folks get so worked up that Obama spoke up about Skip Gates

The anger that the president addressed that issue from some here is almost PALPABLE. Never mind that it was only in response to being specifically asked about it. Certain folks on this web site appear to be absolutely LIVID that he spoke about Skip Gates and not OWS.

It is very important to note who brings up that complaint over and over and over again.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

246. I have no idea what you're talking about.

But, yeah, there can't be absolutely no other idea that we are pissed at Obama. No other option.

False dichotomy?

Jeez. The logistical gymnastics that some will go ... because they're so afraid of a different paradigm. Yeah, they're all about hope and change, unless that hope and change actually manifests itself amongst the people, and not one central authority figure.

How pathetic.

[Number23]

261. Well, considering I wasn't talking TO you or ABOUT you

that may explain why you "have no idea what I'm talking about."

And your use of buzz words is just adorable. "Dichotomy" "paradigm" I'm surprised you didn't squeeze the phrase "sea change" in there somewhere...

[certainot]

215. if obama could do whatever he wants there'd be no need for OWS-

OWS protests are significant (now) because they are one of the few things liberals have done the last 20 years that is louder than fucking limbaugh and the blowhards on their 1000 think tank coordinated radio stations short circuiting democracy so the 1% can do what they have for the last 20 years.and only because the left has ignored the RW radio monopoly while it kicked their ass, mainly because it gives them headaches to listen to it and music is so much more fun.

[bluestate10]

228. The right has put money into radio.

I tried listening to Bill Press on a liberal station one day. The static was so bad I could make out little of what was being talked about. I don't listen to rightwing radio ever, but when I do have the misfortune to go through one of their stations while trying to tune in a station that I will listen to, I never hear static. The thing that disgusts me with many liberals is that at their core, they are just as self centered as the rightwing, few are willing to sacrifice in a way that will cause them discomfort. The chronic whining from some that are on attack against Obama in this OP and others over the change in DU funding is a prime example of the fundamental inability of those calling themselves progressives to give up a little to gain much more. Why should the right fear a group that is not willing to sacrifice to gain it's end objectives?

[julian09]

232. Isn't Bill Press on SiriusXM sat radio.? Ed Schultz also

no static on sat radio (DIGITAL) either you get it or you don't. On other point I agree, some people will not give a dime to preserve sos or medicare for future generations, I got mine, good luck on yours in future.

[certainot]

254. sat radio isn't free. the monopoly by RW of political talk on free public airwaves is the prob

i've heard people say there alternatives but paying 500-1000 dollars a year for a high speed or sat radio is not in the same category. most parts of the country there are no alts for political current events. those are the same stations that will be informing people in an emergency, explaining how the election was stolen or not, etc.

on sos and medicarer though, that's a false choice- sos and medicare just need fewer trillion dollar wars and economics for the 99% instead of the 1%.

[certainot]

238. the right puts a guy on every corner in the country screaming liberals are shit 24/7 and liberals

stick their iPods in their ears and walk on by....
that makes democracy impossibe.

[certainot]

255. PS aside from prog radio being stuck on small stations, i think there's a static button used when

a liberal gets through to make a good point and all of a sudden another signal cuts in- then teh call is over and the signal clears up!

[bertman]

221. He's just smiling and telling us that's why he ran for President. Crapola!! REC this post. nt

[inna]

240. Awesome, Josh!! Too late to rec, but thank you and a belated welcome to DU!

:toast:

[joshguitar]

260. thanks! thank you also for reaing it /nt