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Following the discussion tonight about criticism of OWS' tactics, I offer my views.

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 02:26 AM
Original message
Following the discussion tonight about criticism of OWS' tactics, I offer my views.
I suggest that everyone read the story of William Wilberforce. He was the guy who crusaded for the abolition of the slave trade in the British Empire in the early 1800s. Spent years on it, and nearly killed himself with nervous breakdowns and health problems because despite his rightness, despite the petitions of hundreds of thousands of Britons, and the boycotts, etcetera, he couldn't get an abolition bill passed for more than 25 years, because he simply didn't have the votes for it in the Houses of Parliament.


Were I to run a protest campaign aimed at Wall Street, here's how I'd do it.

First off, forget the large encampments in favor of smaller "spot" events as needed. Too much energy is being tied up in keeping these running, not to mention the inevitable friction with the city governments and neighbors.

Put together a list of say three basic but serious Wall Street reforms, simple things everyone can get behind, like a transaction tax on stocks, bonds, and money market accounts. Point out that it would stabilize the market and keep big swings from wiping out people's investments.

Also, a legal cap on Wall Street compensation, say of maximum $500,000 a year including bonuses. Well below what goes on now, but high enough that anyone who argues against it will look like an asshole. A good point to mention is that these guys would still be making more money than the leader of the free world.

Lastly, a mechanism to write down the mortgage value on "underwater" homes, adjusting the value of the mortgage to what the current assessed value of the home is, in exchange for say ~25% of the difference to be paid for out of revenue from the transaction tax.

Get these three proposals together and publicly petition members of Congress, starting with freshmen and swing districts, to pass them. Any of them who don't sign on, haunt the fuckers. Show up at every public event, every town hall meeting, live in their offices. No need for ostentatious signs or theater, just be there, constantly, asking them at every turn why the won't support protecting the economy and helping homeowners. The tone is important: ask why, and make it seem like the most reasonable thing in the world. Get bloggers credentialed for press conferences, and ask it there. Do letter writing campaigns to local newspapers--you'd be surprised how effective this is at reaching people who don't get their news online. The less outwardly hostile it seems, the more effective it will be in putting actual pressure on them from their constituents.

I wouldn't expect it to pass while the Republicans still have control of the House, but with luck, some Democratic candidates would grab on to the opportunity and swing the House back to our control. Then we're in business.

If the first round of reforms is successful, it would pave the way for a second round, such as limitations on trading commodities--a simple requirement that you be able to take physical delivery of futures goods would curb speculation for profit on oil and other goods, and primarily limit it to less economically harmful areas like gold and precious metals.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 02:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. A transaction tax won't help anything if the fear is that Europe is about to implode.
It will only make it more expensive to get out or it might even keep you in the market when everyone else is protecting their capital.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 02:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. The idea on a transaction tax is a tiny price per trade.
Very tiny, like 1 cent or the like. Not enough for long or medium term investors to care, but enough to discourage high frequency trading.
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dkf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. But it's deceptive to make people think the current risks are due to high frequency trading.
It's overspending by governments that have put us all in a bind.

And they will just trade in Asia so there isnt much of a point.

All you will catch are pensions and individuals.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-18-11 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. High frequency trading is the cause of the massive spikes up and down, which is one big problem.
Penalizing HFT also encourages a longer-term investment strategy, and it discourages excessive commodity trading.
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SoDesuKa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. .Friction With City Government Is Not Inevitable
There has certainly been a lot of friction with city governments, mainly because city governments illegally want to get rid of the protests. That fact alone suggests the protests are succeeding. You don't send out riot cops in the middle of the night for any reason other than to destroy a movemenet.

The way to argue for your right to exist is to keep showing up. Occupying city parks does not preclude other kinds of protests; however, it is a significant method of protest in itself. Moral victories are real victories. So Bloomberg's Army was able to recapture Zuccotti Park; big deal. It cost him the presumption now that he's playing it straight. You don't muzzle the press unless you have something to hide.

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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 03:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Too much of OWS's energy and focus and money is being wasted on ....
paying lawyers to file suits to keep the tents up, getting folks out of jail, running the free library, etc.

I really wish they'd take down the tents and not congregate during the middle of the night - then there wouldn't be anymore nighttime raids by the police.

In my opinion, OWS would probably reach their goals quicker and with more support if they concentrated their protests/marches during the daytime and targeted individual companies/institutions, congressional district offices, etc.



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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. You truly do not understand. Too bad because the information
Edited on Thu Nov-17-11 03:52 AM by sabrina 1
is available. The ARE accomplishing their goals. Bloomberg et al are helping them. They are NOT wasting resources, this is the best exposure of what people only guessed at that money could buy. They have put the 1st Amendment on the table after years of acceptance of violations of that most important right. And each time they are attacked, the movement only grows stronger. Until it is so big and so powerful that it is unstoppable, they are wise to keep building as they have been doing, in order to have the power they will need, we will need, to make the changes that are needed.

Today OccupyBoston won a temporary injunction against their mayor and his police raiding their occupation. This is the fourth such injunction over the past few weeks and there will be more. Is there ANYTHING more important than restoring our Constitutional rights, most of which have been decimated over the years.

This movement is going to last YEARS. Everyone involved understands this. It is not there to satisfy political parties or politicians. Those who want to use it for their own purposes, cannot. The system is BROKEN, all of it, all of our institutions, and the police are on the top of that list right now, bought by the Powers that have taken control of this country. This has become so clear it is causing a lot of people to realize that something must be done to reclaim control of this country into the hands of the people and real representatives, chosen by THEM.

I can think of nothing more important than standing up for the Constitution, something we THOUGHT was going to happen when we gave Democrats the majorities in both houses and the WH. Instead, even the efforts by people like Conyers and Leahy during the Bush years, to restore, eg Habeas Corpus , have been dropped. Now people feel they were naive, fooled by the promises, not facing the reality of just how bad it really was.

People may get hurt, many have already, but this is a longterm commitment and they got it off to an excellent start. People need to be prosecuted, Wall Street Candidates need be thrown out, the money in politics needs to be stopped, the wars need to end, regulations, REAL regulations with zero loopholes need to be restored. Every institution currently under the control of the unelected few, will have to be broken up or regulated.

All this will take many years. But at least now there is a focus on the problems, no more campaign promises that are forgotten as soon as the election is over. That was the old way. No more politics as usual. But they have time now, to deal with the first problem they encountered, the takeover of the police who are clearly not working for the people, and the restoration of Constitutional rights which are clearly not of interest to those who are ordering these attacks on American citizens.
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Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The reason OWS is getting so much pushback here is because they are non partisan..
Can't have anything that steps outside of the two party system to point to flaws within the system.

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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Partisan is the old way. I guess it will take time for people to finally
get that. Partisanship has been devastating for this country. I was so partisan it made me blind to many things, and I deeply regret that. That is why this movement came at the right time, just when the public consciousness was coming to that realization. Partisanship only serves those who profit from the political system.
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 04:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. You're missing the point.

The focus now is NOT on the PROBLEMS that need to be fixed.
The focus now is only being directed at keeping up the tents and the focus is on the arrests and police brutality.

Occupying parks only means that there will be more encampment raids - this is NOT going get folks on Wall Street prosecuted,
it's not going to get Wall Street Candidates thrown out (you have to do that at the voting booth),
it's not going to get the money in politics stopped,
it's not going to get regulations enacted.

Folks need to go home during the night and target congressional district offices during the daytime.


Btw, the wars HAVE ended.

We had a filibuster proof majority in the Senate for only a couple of months since the time Obama was sworn into office.

And as far as Obama's campaign promises being kept, so far at least 158 kept: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/rulings/promise-kept/


Goodnight ;)







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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 04:13 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Sigh, I am afraid it is you who are missing the point, spectacularly.
But it's pointless to continue this conversation, your thinking is locked into that MSM talking point. Which is why I abhor talking points, they are like chains around the mind.

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HughBeaumont Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. The voting booth, once again, DOES NOT WORK!!!!
"Hey, let's vote for either the corporate-approved Republican calling himself a Democrat or the corporate-preferred fascist calling himself a Republican."

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

What CHOICE do we have economically? WHAT CHOICE???

Those goddamned Bewsh II/Reagan fascist judges lousing up the SCOTUS are never going to resign, be found guilty of anything or die, so in the short-term, that isn't even a good enough reason. A 5-4 majority is still a majority, one that's not going away in the next decade, possibly longer.

Voting anymore is a choice between ChurchMerica and a slightly less puritanical agenda.

Economically, we got either Band-Aids covering open wounds or cutting the wound even further.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-18-11 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. It "doesn't work" if you believe the Naderite "let's sit over there and be morally superior" spin.
"They're all the same, don't bother" are the words coming out of the mouth of the right wing sock puppet that gave us eight years of George W. Bush instead of Al Gore. If you can't tell the difference between those two, or between Barack Obama and "Bomb Iran" McCain, then actually, you're right. You SHOULDN'T vote.
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-18-11 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. We know there are differences between conservatives and radical regressives
The sum of those differences doesn't add up to enough to change the direction of the country and secure the needs of the people.

I can tell the differences between Mussolini and Hitler too but neither is an acceptable choice.

We have counter-productive establishment conservatives and completely radical loons actively seeking to scuttle the country, neither is a solution, neither seeks to move the needle toward economic justice but one face of the corporate oligarchy is wise enough to at least put on the show of a few crumbs because they prefer the money to flow and a bunch of yahoos at the barricades isn't about to help that.

I'm fine with voting for the establishment conservatives over the nutty regressives as long as it is understood to be a holding action against worse rather than a solution. If that isn't good enough for you then so be it but I am through pretending voting for Democrats is a real answer to our problems and can no longer turn a blind eye to what they have done working with the TeaPubliKlans to strip mine the people and resources of this country and in many real ways, the world.

Different ain't gonna cut it. Obama says he and leadership agree with the opposition on 80%, well if that is true then he is 80% fucking crazy and evil. I hope that stat was marketing but even at that it sells us short by leaps and bounds.
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Harmony Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. Well said Sabrina 1
Let me add that it is frustrating to have to constant explain as to what OWS is about. But we must continue to educate people and if they are able to make the connections in their own way that truly is a success.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-17-11 05:05 AM
Response to Original message
10. You would do all these "neat" things and get nowhere.
You would be ignored and finally thwarted by a mysteriously ever present bureaucracy.

And then Obama would flick his hand off his shoulder. You would be treated like a gnat.

How many, many years would you continue in your futile attempts to get someone somwhere's attention.

The process you describe no longer works. It's been tried. It has failed.

The OWS process is much, much more difficult. It's cold. It's wet. It's hungry. It's late nights talking and talking about some organizational details -- like making sure there is toilet paper in the port-a-potties to that the everyone can stay healthy and safe.

But this is the process that has caught the public imagination.

The bureaucratic -- small groups -- follow rules -- it used to work. It just doesn't any more.

Nonviolence is key. But large groups are also essential.

You are, of course, free to start a group that tries to do things your way. I wish you luck, but I think you won't get far.

I am not part of the OWS movement, but I understand why they are doing what they are doing.

If there were an easier way, they would try it. But at this point, I don't honestly think there is. The corporate lobbyists are too ensconced in government. The Fascist state is too deeply embedded.

Wish it weren't so. But it is.

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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-18-11 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. No, actually that's the only way that it's ever actually worked.
And it's also why OWS as it's currently constituted is going to fail to accomplish anything. "Let's sit here and be morally superior" is not a strategy.
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