Ladies and Gentlemen, We've reached DEFCON 4, at LEAST!

[FarLeftFist]

On the march towards Fascism...(Possibly even Defcon 5)

1. Corporate control.
2. Spineless politicians
3. Rightwing extremists.
4. Police state erected.
5. Your rights taken.
6. Fascism.

[laconicsax]

1. Sorry, no.

As bad as the various police forces around the country are, we do not live in a police state.

[Fire Walk With Me]

3. We live in a velvet-gloved police state. That glove is now coming off,

revealing beneath, the iron fist.

[laconicsax]

5. We're far from the iron fist.

Extreme overreaction to legal protest is indicative of a militarization of the police, not a police state. Granted, militarization of the police is a stepping stone, but not a last step by any means.

[FarLeftFist]

7. Just for good measure I should throw it out there that I live in NYC.

[laconicsax]

10. And are you free to travel from Manhattan to Queens or from SoHo to Harlem?

Can you identify the checkpoints between Newark and Astoria?

[FarLeftFist]

14. I can tell you where all the checkpoints are in our subway system.

And around town. The NYC subway system is the most frequented form of transportation here.

[laconicsax]

16. And do you need to show your papers?

[FarLeftFist]

18. Unwarranted searches of bags, K9 dogs, M16's, constant video surveillance, etc

[laconicsax]

20. Yet you don't have to show papers, are free to go where you like, and can criticize it openly.

Hyperbole doesn't help anyone.

Call me when you have to worry about the NYPD is breaking down your door for saying mean things about it online. PM me if you want my cell #.

[FarLeftFist]

23. Well I definitely wouldn't want to criticize to their face. Or mine will be beaten bloody.

[nadinbrzezinski]

40. So that is when you will wake up?

That is way too late by the way.

Oh and you are asked for papers every so often these days when internally travelling in the country... yes I know the reasons, but you are, and since TSA is now expanding their mission to roads and bus stations and Amtrak... you may eat those words soon.

[laconicsax]

42. The argument is that we're NOW in a police state.

We aren't and hyperbole doesn't help anyone.

[nadinbrzezinski]

44. Actually we are in a closing society

with many aspects of one, including kicking media out of news stories that are inconvenient to the state.

That is not hyperbole, those are facts. Oh and they are happening again TONIGHT in DALLAS

[tblue]

12. Beware of Boiling Frog syndrome,

where you don't acknowledge it until it's too late.

[laconicsax]

15. We're not there yet.

Not by a longshot.

[daleanime]

27. Nope, not a longshot...

more like a chipshot or a gimme.:banghead:

[laconicsax]

38. Uh huh.

Let me know the next time you're pulled from your house in the middle of the night for voicing your opinion.

[saras]

51. The last time I heard of that happening, they didn't pull him out, they just shot him

Their excuse was that there was a drug house nearby which they intended to bust. Did you ever NOTICE that right-wingers don't get shot in 4AM drug raids on the wrong house?

And it doesn't really matter anyways. If someone voices their opinion and DOES get hauled away, you will undoubtedly have some OTHER excuse - they were disturbing the peace, they were joking in the presence of an authority, they were blocking the right-of-way, or resisting arrest, or whatever else they get charged with when they get beaten into a coma for carrying a sign.

[grasswire]

49. so you want to wait until it's fully here to recognize the trajectory?

I don't get your logic.

[tblue]

54. Some people do. We predicted this would happen—

that Homeland Security would turn its sights on the American public to keep us in line when we rose up. Didn't we talk about this when it was first announced?

I am reminded of Jewish people in Germany as Hitler came to power, they thought, "How bad could it be?" NOT EQUATING the two, just reminded of it. Vigilance is always in order.

[midnight]

26. True...

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Would dictablanda suffice for you?

I am reminded of the Mexico under Echeverria every day, including the attacks on the press.

[abelenkpe]

2. Should go well with global economic meltdown. Nt

[frazzled]

4. Where were you 20, 10, or even 4 years ago?

I've been watching and talking about the corporate control and income inequality since the late 1980s. Watched it happen in slow motion. Spineless politicians? Nothing new here. Rightwing extremists? Oxymoron. Police state? A little exaggerated--you weren't around in the 60s I guess for Kent State or Bloody Sunday, and you seem to think this is Syria or something, where tanks are mowing down people and murdering them. Your rights taken? Can you be specific? Fascism? Puhleeze.

I'm sorry, but you're acting like we are living in some remarkable time, and one that just sprang up full blown from the head of Medusa in the last year or two. If you were living in a fascist regime you would not be posting here.

[laconicsax]

6. +1

Perspective is always a good thing.

[Fumesucker]

8. What nation in the world has the highest incarceration rate? n/t

[laconicsax]

13. Incarceration rate isn't indicative of a police state.

If it were, North Korea or another ACTUAL police state would win that contest.

[Fumesucker]

22. Right... Having vast numbers of people in cages is no indication of being a police state..

:eyes:

[laconicsax]

36. We live in one of the most free countries in the world.

Why don't you do yourself a favor and compare the US to North Korea, China, Iran, or another ACTUAL police state. You know, one of those countries where we'd be locked up for simply having this discussion.

[dpibel]

45. "At least we're not North Korea"

How about comparing us to any country in Europe?

Saying, "We're freer than North Korea, China, and Iran" is damning with faint praise.

Hey, we're still 36th in freedom of the press! http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/10/23/31210/us-press-freedom/

No problem there.

[nadinbrzezinski]

47. And I am betting falling fast

[Fumesucker]

48. Then why does the US have 25% of the world's prisoners and only 5% of the population?

:shrug:

[FarLeftFist]

9. I was born in January of 1980.

[frazzled]

17. But you did have to take American history when you were in school

Right? I don't think it is necessary to have lived during earlier times to know about them and consider their relative importance.

I didn't live in 1886, but I know about the Haymarket Affair: about the police actions and the anarchist bombs and the (totally innocent) labor leaders who were hung in the aftermath. I didn't live during the times of slavery or Reconstruction, but I know about how an entire people was denied full citizenship. I didn't live before women received the right to vote, but I can imagine what it must have felt like to have no say whatsoever. I didn't live during the Gilded Age, but I know that income inequality was stupendous.

I was born in 1950 (so I'm probably around your parents' age). I grew up in the aftermath of the House Unamerican Activities Committee (I've met people who were blacklisted and had to live abroad their entire lives) and experienced the Free Speech movement, the Civil Rights movement, the anti-Vietnam War movement, the multiple assassinations, the race riots, the Weather Underground, Watergate, the Allende assassination, Iran-Contra, Nicaragua ...

You must've read about all these things in high school history. Or I hope. They should be teaching some of it.

[FarLeftFist]

19. Oh yeah, I know a good amount of U.S. history and no doubt believe we've been marching this way for

A long time now. I just never remember it being so accelerated.

[frazzled]

50. I feel like the acceleration came in the late 80s, 90s and then ...

hit the wall in the 00s. In the aftermath of Reaganism. We used to be stupefied at the number of times our bank got sold and and then sold again until our account eventually ended up at Bank of America, through no action of our own. They simply gobbled everything up--and we let them. There was consolidation after consolidation. These banks didn't get "too big to fail" overnight. We were moving to another state in the late 90s, and I remembered that we had a safe deposit box that needed to be closed, which had started out at some small bank in a neighboring community (not the place we had our accounts). It had been sold so many times I couldn't even remember the name of the bank to call them. I had to drive to the spot to see what the latest merger was by looking at the newly tacked-up sign.

In the late 90s early 2000s I also remember how we would get these letters once every year or two saying our mortgage had been sold to some other entity. I had no idea why that should be happening at all, much less so often. This was clearly part of the "bundling" of mortgages being used like casino chips in the markets. We just paid our mortgage and scratched our heads, thinking something odd was up but not able to figure it out.

We should have been out marching in the streets back then, asking what the hell is going on. We waited until it got so huge that the whole thing imploded--and honestly, it feels like it's too late to me. I don't know how to undo the entire culture.

I am totally supportive of the ideas of OWS. But I don't think the current tactics will lead to the massive changes that are needed.

[holdencaufield]

11. As you are unfamiliar with the military terminology...

... I will take a moment to correct you.

DEFCON 5 is the LOWEST state of defensive posture. Being a DEFCON 5 means there are no threats.

The highest state of readiness is, of course, DEFCON 1 -- Imminent risk of Nuclear War


Unfortunately for you, you are in no position to assume ANY defensive posture as I assume you are against owning guns and you don't know how to use one.

[DRoseDARs]

21. Thank you. I was all like "OH NOES WE'RE AT THE 2ND LOWEST LEVEL ON A 5 POINT SCALE!!1"

And then I opened the thread...

*Fry squint*
Oh, not only is it hyperbolic, it's also backwards. Help yourself to some *facepalm* pictures.

[FarLeftFist]

25. I made up my own DEFCON rules. I'm protected under the 1st Amendment to do so.

[DRoseDARs]

30. Good god, did you really just play the 1st Amendment card? Are you THAT threatened?

:eyes:

[FarLeftFist]

31. Threatened? Why?! Not at all. Would any of those Defcons be good?

Focus on the content.

[DRoseDARs]

34. 3 and 4 are good things...

3: Center-right politicians can point to them and say, "We're not THOSE fuckers..."
4: "Erect"

[FarLeftFist]

35. What's a center-right politician?!

[laconicsax]

39. Look at the guy living in the WH. n/t

[DRoseDARs]

43. See, that right there demonstrates why no one should take you too seriously here.

Black and white, there are no shades of grey. It's the same "You're either with us or against us" claptrap Bush used.

[FarLeftFist]

53. Because I can't name a center-right politician? Go ahead, name one.

All I see are bat-shit crazies on the right. Not ONE single, rational, sane one in the bunch.

[FarLeftFist]

24. Kind of an inside joke the whole DEFCON thing.

Unfortunately for you you're new around here. Stay awhile.

[hootinholler]

46. A poor assumption in your last statement.

Many of us here believe in a strong bill of rights. All of them, including the 2nd. Many of us here are Vets as well.

[Nye Bevan]

29. Here's a hint. If we can debate whether or not we are living under "fascism",

openly and freely on a public discussion board, without any consequence to the people who post or the owners of the website, then we are not.

[FarLeftFist]

32. I respectfully disagree.

[Nye Bevan]

33. We could not have had this conversation in a Berlin coffee house in 1936.

At least, not without whispering and looking over our shoulders in fear.

[FarLeftFist]

37. Wait until the next republican president is elected.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Actually you could

it took a few more years for the real hammer to drop

In fact, life inside germany was pretty normal for most of the population all the way to 1943

Now if you were the other... aka known lefty. or Jew... then you would not able to BE at that coffee shop.

[robdogbucky]

I just saw/heard on UStream of the OWS demos today that

the police were blocking off streets around the NYSE and demanding ID for anyone wanting permission to pass through police lines/barricades.


Smells a little like fascism to me for those that touted no demands for papers, can go anywhere in this country, etc.



The UStream guy reminds me of the visionary Al Franken on SNL circa 1988 with his tongue in cheek portrayal of a one-man mobile-uplink electronic journalist. This is the fruition of that Franken vision.


Very cool in terms of FlashMob tactics and live coverage of same.


Best quote of the morning: "If we have enough numbers, we can do anything," in response to how were demonstrators allowed to take down the metal barricades at Zucotti Park right in front of a line of NYPD.


Medics now urging a return to the park and to pass up confrontations with cops blocking access to the NYSE.


Good stuff showing the people vs the 1%.

[robdogbucky]

52. We are the 99%!

Decent sized crowd now heading back to Zucotti from turning back from police barricades at NYSE's surrounding streets, with subway late arrivals joining the demos.