So...Which of these do YOU think needs to be challenged first? The Political Class, or Wall Street?

[Ken Burch]

This is a poll and a discussion about who you think has the greatest power between those two, and which obeys the other. It's also about which needs to be confronted with greater intensity.

[TheWraith]

1. Republicans.

Republicans are the single biggest roadblock to accomplishing anything.

[slipslidingaway]

25. Clinton and Obama both blocked discussion of a national HC system...

you can try and blame that on the Republicans if you want.

And without a not for profit HC system there will most likely be cuts to Medicare, unless the Dems did not see the boomers coming.

:think:

:think:


This was the perfect time to open up a discussion of a national HC system for everyone, Obama blocked that discussion, not the Republicans!!!


Before being distracted by the "public option" polls showed two-thirds of the Americans wanted Medicare for All.


Two-thirds of Americans support Medicare-for-all (#1 of 6)

http://pnhp.org/blog/2009/12/06/two-thirds-support-1/

Introduction to a Six-part Series
By Kip Sullivan, JD

“Americans are scared to death of single payer.”

These words were not uttered by some foaming-at-the mouth wingnut. They were written by Bernie Horn, a Senior Fellow at the Campaign for America’s Future, a member of Health Care for America Now, on June 8, 2009. Horn explained that he was moved to write this tripe because single-payer supporters were asking why Democrats had taken single-payer off the table to make room for the “public option”:

...Horn went on to assert that single-payer had been taken off the table because Americans want it off the table. He claimed polling data supported him, but he cited no particular poll. The truth is that the Campaign for America’s Future (CAF) and other groups in Health Care for America Now (HCAN) had decided years earlier they would push Democratic candidates and officeholders to substitute the “option” for single-payer, and they would tell both Democrats and progressive activists that Americans “like the insurance they have” and that Americans oppose single-payer.

The argument that single-payer is “politically infeasible” is not new. That argument is as old as the modern single-payer movement (which emerged in the late 1980s). It is an argument made exclusively by Democrats who don’t want to support single-payer legislation – a group Merton Bernstein and Ted Marmor have called “yes buts.”

The traditional version of the “yes but” excuse has been that the insurance industry is too powerful to beat or, more simply, that “there just aren’t 60 votes in the Senate for single-payer.” But the leaders of the “option” movement felt they needed a more persuasive version of the traditional “yes but” excuse. The version they invented was much more insidious. They decided to say that American “values,” not American insurance companies, are the major impediment to single-payer..."

[Ken Burch]

40. Non-progressive Dems in the House and Senate are an equal roadblock

The only way you can make the partisan thing worthwhile is to make sure our party STOPS recruiting any more Blue Dog candidates for House or Senate races. The first two years of Obama's term prove that the election of non-progressive Dems is worthless.

And your post shows that you still don't get it:

The issue is corporate control of politics and, indeed, of our lives. That control has reduced party politics to a meaningless sideshow.

[Amonester]

2. Other.

Both (except the small fraction of politicians who, in spite of having no real power, still stand for their true constituents).

[valerief]

3. Who is the Political Class? Politicians are agents for Wall St.

They're all the same ball of earwax.

[Zorra]

4. I voted Wall St., because they are the puppetmasters. nt

[randome]

7. But in this case...

...it's the puppets who willingly let themselves be manipulated. I say 'politicians' over 'Wall Street' because laws are not going to be changed by Wall Street.

[doc03]

15. +1 Unless the laws are changed to get the money out

of politics absolutely nothing will change. If a politician puts himself up for sale to the highest bidder it's not the purchaser that is to blame.

[Zorra]

18. Wall St. selects and hires their employees. The employees are just doing their job according

to their employer's corporate policy guidelines.

[Ken Burch]

21. Good description of the phenomenon.

The leadership of BOTH major parties can fairly be considered employees of Wall Street-including the current president.

We had a right to expect that he wouldn't be...and he disregarded that right.

[northoftheborder]

5. Other

The whole system of election and voting processes needs to be revamped. Fairness, openness, equality. Until that is done, nothing else can be accomplished.

[Ken Burch]

8. OK...but whose power do you have to defeat to get the chance

to change the electoral system?

[BlueIris]

6. Sort of torn, but I put Wall St.

The political class will kill itself off due to how out of touch and inactive it has been. Wall St. will take more time and effort. Also, Wall St. is what feeds the political class, and what holds it hostage. Abolish corruption there, and you're halfway to abolishing it in the political world.

[shraby]

9. Aren't they the same thing?

[Ken Burch]

17. ...perhaps...

n/t.

[ellisonz]

10. Other: Republicans

[Ken Burch]

16. Are you sure it's THAT simple, though?

Don't we also have to drive out the Wall Street wing of THIS party?

[ellisonz]

19. Yes.

Beat the Republicans and it stunts the need to compete for corporate contributions.

I reject the Nader hypothesis that there is no difference between the two parties. That whatever fault can be found in the Democratic Party is irreparable.

"This is a struggle of good and evil. And we're the good." - Howard Dean

[Ken Burch]

22. Replacing Republicans with Blue Dog Dems cannot be a victory over Wall Street

Republicans and the right-wing of our party are almost exactly the same. The Clinton era proved that.

[ellisonz]

26. That's your opinion.

I don't condemn members of my own party out of hand.

I'm just not that into internecine feuding.

Would you rather have Republicans in power?

It's your type of judgment that gave us 8 years of George W. Bush.

[Ken Burch]

27. I'd rather have people I can trust

It's useless to have people who stand as Dems but act as if they are above the party and above any obligation to the base.

Only Left Dems can ever be worth voting for.

[ellisonz]

28. "Only Left Dems can ever be worth voting for."

Don't throw my generation under the bus!:spank:

[Ken Burch]

29. I'm not.

non-progressive Dems proved they weren't worth a damn by insisting that the only important pieces of legislation between 2008 and 2010 be watered down to nothing.

We don't need anyone who thinks they're doing the party a favor by lowering themselves to run as Dems.

No "Dem" who opposes the progressive agenda is helping your generation. By itself, party identification isn't anything.

[ellisonz]

30. "By itself, party identification isn't anything."

House and Senate Leadership.

"non-progressive Dems proved they weren't worth a damn by insisting that the only important pieces of legislation between 2008 and 2010 be watered down to nothing."

http://whatthefuckhasobamadonesofar.com/

"We don't need anyone who thinks they're doing the party a favor by lowering themselves to run as Dems."

Speak for yourself.

:hi:

[Ken Burch]

32. Nothing on that freaking list depended on the election of non-progressive Dems

And none of it depended on letting those non-progressive Dems get their way and water the bills down. Watered-down bills don't get fixed later anymore, anyway.

It can't ever be worth nominating anybody like Joe Lieberman or Bart Stupak again.

And this whole exchange proves that you don't get it. You haven't listened to anything the OWS people have said.

[ellisonz]

34. Wrong.

It depends on having Democratic control of the Congress to get it into Committee - out of Committee - through the Congress and to the White House in order to be signed into law. You then need a Democratic administration to put the law into effect.

"You haven't listened to anything the OWS people have said."

Can you be more specific? I've followed it since day 1 and I think it reflects anger more than anything else. I don't believe it's a viable plan to take this country back.

Occupy the voting both and when you do vote Democratic. The political agenda of this movement seems to be as mushy as the Rally to Restore Sanity. Yeah, it's cool. But it's not going to get shit done on Wall Street, K Street, or Main Street.

[Ken Burch]

35. We had Democratic control of Congress and everything important

still got watered-down or defeated. The only things that weren't were meaningless side issues.

The healthcare bill ended up being less than half of the original proposal-and getting less-than-half is no different than losing. It's only worthwhile if you get at least 50% of what you originally wanted.

We could have had primary challenges, but people like you said "no, we can't do that".

Next time, we HAVE to nominate REAL Dems everywhere. It's never going to be worth nominating any Blue Dogs anywhere after the last two years. And the party needs to agree to never recruit Blue Dog candidates again. Only PROGRESSIVE Dems are worth having.

[ellisonz]

36. Filibuster.

"It's only worthwhile if you get at least 50% of what you originally wanted."

Some progressive you are!

: a forward or onward movement (as to an objective or to a goal) : advance
3
: gradual betterment; especially : the progressive development of humankind

[Ken Burch]

37. And all the non-progressive Dems in the Senate JOINED the filibuster

So you've just destroyed the argument for your own position.

We need to abolish the filibuster...and our party's leaders will never have the guts to do it.

[ellisonz]

38. That's not entirely true.

Repealing the filibuster would allow Republicans if they were to get back in power shove bills down our throats too.

Also you forget Ted Kennedy's death and that we only really had run of the Senate for a few months - and even then it was a week majority...

Bitch, bitch, bitch, you'll never get anything done!

Beat Republicans, not each other. :eyes:

[Ken Burch]

39. Fine, beat Republicans...but not with Dems who are just barely NOT Republican

It's only worth beating them with Dems who won't insist on watering progressive legislation down.

Remember, settling for "just electing a Dem" is how we ended up with that asshole Richard Shelby...who ended up BECOMING a Republican after Democrats elected him.

By itself, electing more Democrats isn't anything. Much more needs to change-including corporate control of politics. DLC and Blue Dog Dems SUPPORT corporate control of politics.

[alfredo]

11. Wall St. Cut off the head, the body dies.

[MedleyMisty]

12. I voted other

They're the same thing.

[EFerrari]

13. If we had real access to the politcal class, we wouldn't be here.

So, clearly Wall Street.

[Kennah]

14. Politicians are the Kochwhores. Kochs and banks are the pimps.

[Huey P. Long]

20. We seem to be doing Wall Street right now, but don't worry,

the politicians are next.

[Romulox]

23. As long as it's legal to buy our politicians, the only question will be who will be making

the purchase. "Reform" wall street, and it will be oil, or media companies buying off government (to a larger degree).

[Ken Burch]

24. You are right.

So a much bigger political project is required.

[WildNovember]

31. Aren't they more or less the same thing? Hand in glove.

[Fearless]

33. Corporate personhood and campaign finance reform.

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. Eighth grade civics,: "Government is the executive committee of the bourgeoisie."The political class

is a the Department of Operations of Wall Street - at least Wall Street euphemistically speakings is the only political class that counts. There is a reason why socialist and even communist parties in Europe started implementing pro-corporate policies. No election no matter who wins and by how wide a margin is going to change that as long as who controls the money supply and who owns the world stays in the same hands - and so shall it be - "Till the earth is owned by labor and there is joy and peace for all in the worker's commonwealth that is to be."

[TBF]

46. +1 nt

[melm00se]

42. Wall Street is the symptom

the political class is the disease.

cure the disease and the symptom goes away

[HappyMe]

43. Republicans

They are log jamming everything.

[mmonk]

44. What degree of separation is there?

[No Joe]

45. Neocons

Young Americans are losing their lives as we speak becayse of these goddamn chickenhawks.

[TheKentuckian]

47. Other: Yes

[Douglas Carpenter]

48. knr

[meow2u3]

49. Both. Wall Street and the political class are now one and the same

eom