Do you believe corporal punishment by parents is appropriate for children?

[Renew Deal]

CNN is asking this question right now. What do DUers think?

Do you believe corporal punishment by parents is appropriate for children?

Yes 62% 79535
No 38% 47959

Total votes: 127494

[county worker]

1. Glad to be the first in line to say no.

Some people would do to their kids things they wouldn't do to their dog or cat.

[ret5hd]

6. Your typo is somehow...apropo.

[county worker]

14. I had to fix it

[HughBeaumont]

2. What a sad fucking world we live in.

My parents didn't NEED to hit us to get their point across. All hitting your kids teaches them is that it's OK to hit.

[pintobean]

8. Self delete

Sorry, Hugh. I didn't realize that possibility until after I posted, then you removed all doubt.
:hi:

[HughBeaumont]

23. I was talking about the 62% Yes on the CNN Poll.

[HughBeaumont]

35. I mean, I KNOW our board is smart.

99% of the time.

:)

[redqueen]

65. +1

[MineralMan]

3. Depends on how you define it, really.

So, I won't vote.

[seabeyond]

4. not so black and white for me, so i cant vote. and no, i do not hit my kids to discipline them. nt

[HereSince1628]

5. Many of us will be surprised by how recently this was a school practice

When I moved to Arkansas in 2001 I was surprised to find out it was allowed in many school districts
but it turns out Arkansas is hardly alone...

The data in the tables at this site are from 2008

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934191.html

Sorry about the tables appearance they don't move very well into DU...


Sates that allowed corporal punishment in 2008

State Number of students hit Percent of total students
Alabama 33,716 4.5%
Arizona 16 1
Arkansas 22,314 4.7
Colorado 9 (1)
Florida 7,185 0.3
Georgia 18,249 1.1
Idaho 111 0.4
Indiana 577 0.5
Kansas 50 .01
Kentucky 2,209 0.3
Louisiana 11,080 1.7
Mississippi 38,131 7.5
Missouri 5,159 0.6
New Mexico 705 0.2
North Carolina 2,705 0.2
Ohio 672 0.04
Oklahoma 14,828 2.3
South Carolina 1,409 0.2
Tennessee 14,868 1.5
Texas 49,197 1.1
U.S. total 223,190 0.46

Read more: Corporal Punishment in Public Schools, by State — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934191.html#ixzz1cfVPJu3D

States that banned corporal punishment in schools and when

State Year banned
Alaska 1989
California 1986
Connecticut 1989
Delaware 2003
Hawaii 1973
Illinois 1993
Iowa 1989
Maine 1975
Maryland 1993
Massachusetts 1971
Michigan 1989
Minnesota 1989
Montana 1991
Nebraska 1988
Nevada 1993
New Hampshire 1983
New Jersey 1867
New York 1985
North Dakota 1989
Ohio 1994
Oregon 1989
Pennsylvania 2005
Rhode Island 1977
South Dakota 1990
Utah 1992
Vermont 1985
Virginia 1989
Washington 1993
West Virginia 1994
Wisconsin 1988

Read more: Corporal Punishment in Public Schools, by State — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934191.html#ixzz1cfV2FatI

[TBF]

56. Also varies by district -

for example the district we are in has outlawed it (in Texas) while other nearby districts still allow it.

[mzteris]

83. there are schools that STILL do this!

We had a poster who was very active in trying to get this to stop. She became the object of ridicule in the Education Forum... I was never sure why when all she wanted to do was stop the beatings!

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uponit7771]

27. +1

[Luminous Animal]

62. Everything that was done to you that you described would be arrestable actions

if committed against another adult.

[nolabear]

70. Didn't carry over, huh? Sounds like it did to me.

[patrick t. cakes]

73. +1

above post gets the ironic post of the day award.

[laundry_queen]

81. LOL, you aren't kidding

this is why fighting child abuse is an uphill battle. "I had it done to me and I'm not a serial killer. Parents just coddle kids these days. Get off my lawn!"

[mzteris]

85. agreed. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

9. Where is the FUCK NO! option?

[abelenkpe]

19. Wondering the same....

Hitting your kids, doesn't just abuse the kid that was hit. I still have nightmares about my father hitting my little brother and how upset it would make me to be powerless to stop it.

[laundry_queen]

82. EXACTLY! The dynamics are more than just you getting hit

there's worrying about your siblings. Feeling guilty if a sibling does something to you and then gets a beating because you tattle (and the next time YOU take the blame - and the beating - because you feel guilty for doing that to your sibling the first time). One parent being upset or wanting the hitting to stop but not doing anything about it because the violence scares THEM even if THEY'VE never been hit. The damage done to the child who can't understand why that one parent won't protect them. The message kids get - that you must depend on and love the very people who hit and hurt you (what a set up for future relationships!), that your feelings don't matter (how many times did you get hit for something you didn't know was wrong?), that your wants and need don't matter (therefore you don't matter); then there's the the confusion, the opposing feelings of love and hate, then feeling guilty for that hate because you are supposed to love your parents, so you must somehow be a bad kid/person, the feelings of powerlessness, of injustice, of not being important enough for anyone to care about or intervene.

And on and on and on.

And nothing my parents did would have been considered child abuse back in the day, but boy did it fuck me up. I don't hit my kids and so far, so good.

[JoePhilly]

10. No, No ... and Yes (sort of) .... I can explain ...

First ... No ... as a parent, if you need to hit your child to change their behavior, YOU have failed. And you need to see it that way.

The reason kids act up to the point where a parent decides on corporal punishment, indicates that the parent has not been paying attention. In most cases, the reason they act out is tied closely to how the parents have been acting.

As a simple example ... my wife and I found that our son (years ago) would have a "melt-down" when our schedules got out of hand. The only way to recognize this, was to chart the incidents, "when did they happen?". We could see the pattern and then fix the problem before it became an issue.

Second ... No ... parents tend to apply corporal punishment in an uneven manner. As an example ... imagine a kid who spills his grape juice in the kitchen verses one who does the same on the new carpet. The child's action is the same, but the punishment is likely to be more severe because of the carpet damage. The child has no idea of the cost differences, the parent does ... and the parent allowed the child to have the juice in both cases.

Third ... YES (sort of) ... as an absolute last resort. And even then, with an understanding that as a parent YOU FAILED!! That you found yourself needing to HIT a child. Having said this ... there is no real reason to advocate this "out" ... accepting this as "ok" is very risky. Hitting a child is EASY. And it WORKS. They will stop doing what ever it is you want them to stop doing. But if you do it, YOU FAILED as a parent that day. YOU missed something. YOU were not paying attention.

But your kids are not MY kids. If you as a parent FAIL on occasion, as a parent of 3, I can understand that ... but if you use corporal punishment as your main approach ... then you suck as a parent. You are taking the easy way out, and unwilling to pay attention to your own role in your kid's behavior.

[Brickbat]

12. This is well and generously said.

[JoePhilly]

15. Thanks much!

This is a tough subject.

The ideal is NEVER. We'd all be totally aware, all the time.

The real focus on this issue (I think) would be those who think that corporal punishment is the place to START.

[NeedleCast]

22. Well Said

[w8liftinglady]

31. I was just going to say

my oldest son had an obsession with light fixtures...between 18 mo and 2 1/2 years.I tried everything to prevent him sticking his fingers in them..positive reinforcement,protective gadgets (it was 1983,after all),and finally,I popped his hand once with 2 fingers.It only took once...any time he saw a light socket,he would point at it and say "no,no".

[notadmblnd]

33. I've never struck my child

I'm the parent and if he spills juice on the carpet, it is my fault because I allowed him to take it into a room with carpeting.

I set the rules and the example and there aren't two different sets of rules. If I expect him to follow the rules, then I also have to follow them.

[JoePhilly]

39. I have 3 ... and only one ever got a "pop".

She was about 2, and wanted to run into traffic. She kept trying to do it.

The "pop" was on her bottom and she was wearing a diaper (extra padding).

Its the only time we ever felt we had no other choice. It surprised her.

As for the rules ... everyone breaks the rules from time to time. As a parent, if you pretend that you always follow them, kids will still know when you did not.

So you'd be better off indicating that their a rules, and that we all try to follow them (parents and kids) and yet at times we all fail ... and we are honest about that, and acknowledge that when it happens.

Unless the goal is to let the kid believe that parents always follow the rules, when we know they don;t.

[notadmblnd]

46. NO, it'sis not all black and white, but for the most part I'm the one responsible for what my child

does or does not do. For example the biggest rule in my home was no arguing or fighting in our home. That also meant that my husband and I could not argue or fight. That's not to say there couldn't be disagreements, there was just no screaming or hitting allowed.

My son also had a close encounter with traffic when he was about 2. It was my fault, because I allowed myself to become distracted and took my eyes off of him. So how could I beat his ass for that?

My philosophy was always, I don't have to beat your butt cause you're going to do that yourself. Like the time he took the hatchet and axed a spray paint can (he might have been 6). We were getting ready to go somewhere and he had asked if he could go outside. I said yes, but don't get dirty. He went out, I continued getting dressed. A few minutes later he comes in the house covered in black paint. I asked what he did and he was honest, he told me he axed a paint can. He knew he shouldn't have done it. But the consequences wasn't a spanking. No, I put him in the bath tub, got a can of goof-off out and warned him that getting it off would not be a pleasant experience. I scrubbed the paint off him and he had to take another bath. I don't know if you have boys, but at some point they all seem to develop an aversion to baths. Needless to say, he wasn't very happy about it. But he never took a hatchet to a pant can again. My husband probably should have had his butt beat because he left the hatchet where our son could get it.

I realize stuff happens and you can't have your eyes on them 7/24 but whipping,spanking,beating your child is wrong and I've never done it. In fact,there have been times that I've been so angry- that all I could do is laugh.

[JoePhilly]

52. Love the paint can story.

My oldest, now 18 is a boy (the girls are 12 and 10) ...

When my son was 6, he and a friend stole all the change I had rolled up ... about $150.

The other kid's mom called and told me that the boys had all this change and that they wanted her to give them paper money for it.

They told her they had earned it doing odd jobs.

So she called me, and I checked my change rolls, and they were gone.

So she gave me all the change back, and when my son came home I asked him if he had done anything wrong recently.

"No".

Did he take anything from my room?

"No".

Did he steal any money?

"No".

And so then I dumped the change out on the bed.

And he burst into tears. Confessed.

I could have started by beating him. I already knew he was guilty. But this was far more effective. Never had to lay a finger on him.

I recall being able to take him to nice restaurants when he was about that same age. He could order for himself. And I'd have people around us, say how grown up he was ... he loved it.

I've always treated all of our kids as if they were grown ups. Never talk down to them. Maybe simplify the language, but never treat them or their feelings as "less than" my own.

My one daughter got mad at the other and scratched her name in the door of my car ... talk about the desire to beat a kid.

When I confronted her, she denied it, then confessed ... said "I was mad at her" ... so I said "ok" ... and then I said come with me" ... went to her room and explained that I was "mad at her" and I was going to write her sister's name all over her walls. She said "please don't" ... I asked why not? She said its wrong. I asked then why was it ok for her to do it on my (old) car. She froze.

She understood. And we've never had another issue with her.

Kids are going to do dumb things ... they are kids. That's what being a kid is.

[notadmblnd]

79. My son was above change. Had no use for it. It was $$$ that lit up his eyes

but he's never stolen money.

I do have a million funny stories about him over the years. One of the funniest was when he decided to give away something that wasn't his to give-

I wrote a short story about it for one of m English classes:

Being a parent, I had always vowed not to get involved in my children’s conflicts with their friends. Far too many times the parents jump in, overreact and hard feelings are left between all involved while the kids make up shortly after and go on happily with their lives until the next conflict arises. Work it out yourselves, has always been my motto.


My son James is thirteen, and he is the joy of my life. He is so much like his father, the stride in his walk, his mannerisms and mild temperament. He's a good kid and apparently possesses the same magical charm his father had with the ladies. I can't believe that the girls are already chasing after him at his age. Recently, we both learned a lesson about conflict resolution when he somehow got the bright idea that it was ok to give a girl someone else's gift.

My niece April, had left one of her gifts at the house on Christmas Eve and James decided she wouldn't miss it and that he was going to give it to a girl he likes. Now he never mentioned to me that he had a friend he wanted to give a gift to. I could have made a nice bracelet for her (I make jewelry using Swarovski crystal as a hobby). I told him it was wrong for two reasons. One, you don't give another persons gift away and more importantly, number two, you don't give girlfriends thong underwear as a present!

I don't know what happens to children at the age of thirteen, they to go to sleep at night filled with wonder about life and still trusting in their parents’ judgment. Then one day, they wake up and seem to think that they have been bestowed with all the knowledge and wisdom of Methuselah. I often think that they must feel that their parent’s minds have been erased and there's no longer anything we can tell them because they know better. This child, my offspring, the pride and joy of my life, had decided to completely disregard what I had told him.

Well the day came that the girl asked for her gift; yeah, he was even foolish enough to tell her he had one for her. James must have been sweating bullets. April, whose gift he had absconded with, was staying over New Years weekend, had decided that she was going to go with him down the street to his friend Amanda’s house. I soon got a phone call from my niece ratting him out. "Aunt Cathy, do you know that your son gave a gift I left at your house to his girlfriend?" she asked. I told her I would deal with it when they both got back and she seemed satisfied that he would suffer for it when he got home. In the meantime, I get on the phone and call my son, "Well son, how did that work for you? Is your cousin angry with you?"
"All three of them are, and they're trying to catch me and kill me right now!" I told him to get home before it got out of hand and someone got hurt.

I called my niece back, (what kid doesn't have a cell phone these days?) and told her and the girls to come up to the house. When the girls arrived, they began explaining the recent event to me. My son, having taken refuge, had locked himself in his room. Marissa, the girl who is the object of his affection said, "My father would have killed me if he saw that gift". I called my son out of his room promising that I would not allow the girls to end his life and that he should come and apologize to them for what he had done.

I told him, “you have a choice, you get down on your knees and tell them that you were wrong and that you are sorry and that you'll never do it again, or I'm going to let the girls pick their own punishment”. For some reason, this boy could not apologize; he was definitely suffering from a severe case of stupid at the time. I had no other choice, "Okay girls, he's yours to do with what you will; what’s it going to be”?

Now besides talking on the phone to boys, there's nothing a thirteen year old girl likes to do more than play in makeup and get all dolled up, so they take my sons belt off him and strap him to one of my dining room chairs. Satisfied that he would be unable to escape, the girls proceeded down the hall and into my bedroom closet to pick out a nice dress and shoes (my shoes would never fit him as he's already in a size 12). Next, it was into the bathroom where they collected my makeup and brought it all out into the dining room. They were going to transform my son into a beautiful young woman! The look of horror on his face when he saw the implements of his torture; foundation, lipstick, eyelash curler, curling iron, hairspray and barrettes amongst various other items of discomfort, and it almost made me feel sorry for the boy. When the girls told him he was going to go for a walk with them down the street to the corner gas station, the tears started welling in his eyes. I couldn’t take his suffering any longer. I had to draw the line at just dressing him up and taking pictures.

I thought about it later, what I could have done as a parent. Should I have stayed out of it and just recovered his body after the girls had killed him? Should I have involved the other parents and possibly have made a mountain out of a molehill? Make him stay in his room for a while? I could have, but I think the event would have melted into just another punishment for doing something wrong and would soon be forgotten. No, I think letting the girls choose their own punishment, and controlling the situation has made a more lasting impression on him. As a bonus, I have some great pictures to hold over his head incase he ever comes down with a case of the stupids again.

So I’ve changed my mind about getting involved in their conflicts. Those girls could have put some serious hurt on James that day, but by stepping in, I was able to diffuse the situation while allowing the girls to exact their revenge. And my boy, I think what he learned that day was more a lesson about gift giving and women than conflict resolution, but you’d have to ask him about that.

[Still Blue in PDX]

54. A little pop on a Pamper makes a LOT of noise and gets the kid's attention.

You can do that, and/or put the kid on a leash.

Both of those actions horrify uninformed and opinionated people who may or may not have kids*, but they do a lot toward keeping a toddler alive.

*previously read "non-parents" prior to edit.

[MedicalAdmin]

59. I'm a non parent.

And that stuff doesn't bug me in the least.

Could we perhaps rephrase that to say "uninformed and opinionated people" who may or may not have kids. I have met parents who are also outraged by anyone else laying a hand on a kid in any way or kid leashes. And yes, their kids are freaking holy terrors.

[Luminous Animal]

67. It's a wonder that I managed to keep my toddler and two others I watched alive without having

to resort to abuse. However did I get their attention without the threat of being hit? In the city, no less.

There are entire societies that manage to get their toddlers' attentions without hitting them AND their children manage to stay alive!

[Bill McBlueState]

68. never did that to my toddler

Anyone who hits a kid in a diaper has a problem.

[mzteris]

86. leashes are not abuse.

In many cases, they are life-savers.

[rjj621]

38. Well said and thought provoking

I particularly liked the carpet/floor comparison.

Still, while most things can be traced back to the parents, I honestly believe some kids are just fucked up from the beginning. Some are chemical imbalances, some are other disorders and some are just fucked up. You can't blame every problem child (or now problem adult) actions on their parents. Some yes, hell I would even consider most yes but not all. I hate hearing all that psychobabble crap on news and tv. Too much time in this country is spent by too many of blaming someone else for everything. I got spanked, mostly because I was a shit as a kid and worse as a teenager, partially my parents are to blame (as we all are somewhat as parents) but mostly it was me.

[JoePhilly]

47. Thanks ...

And you are correct ... you can't blame the parents for everything.

In reality, kids are very resilient. Some survive incredible abuse and come out ok after.

And some who are abused are damaged so badly that they never recover.

My point in part was how parents should approach it. If you start with the position that you have to resort to violence then it is YOUR fault ... then you are far more likely to pay attention and try to prevent situations where that would happen.

For some kids, particularly those who have other issues, chemical imbalances, etc ... the situation is different ... but that is not to say that violent response is ok there either.

Often chemical imbalances can be managed via diet and appropriate meds. And other behavioral efforts as well.

Here is an example ... as a Psych graduate student, I spent 6-9 months working in a psych ward for youth clients. Most were non-violent, but a few could get agitated and become aggressive and violent.

One of the things we found is that a few of those who became violent had learned that by acting violent, they would be moved to a solitary room with some (limited) restraints ... but once in this room, they would have a staff member right there with them to talk to and interact with. Which was really what they wanted. We found that if one of these kids began to act up, we could cut it off by simply engaging them one-on-one for a brief period. You just needed to recognize the signs.

Similarly, we found that some of the kids would act up after receiving a food reward ... the reward tended to be something sweet like some fruit loops ... I kid you not ... kids with medical imbalances, were given fruit loops for good behavior ... then they act up because the sugar gives them an energy surge and they can't control it. Changing the rewards to something behavioral, some positive activity they liked made a huge difference ... you just needed to figure out what it was.

[mzteris]

87. beating a kid for a chemical imbalance

uh - huh - that makes real good sense, don't it?

:eyes:

How about treatment? How about counseling? How about deciphering the problems and the triggers and the solutions? You know REAL parenting, not beating a kid.

I'm sorry your parents beat you. I'm sorry that they didn't respect you enough to take the time to figure out how to parent you properly.

It is not too late for you. Please seek counseling for your issues before you become a parent and pass on the bad parenting you received.

[rjj621]

95. No it doesn't make sense

Chemical imbalances are a real issue and can cause serious seemingly abnormal actions in both kids and adults. I never once implied anyone should beat a kid because of a chemical imbalance. If I did somehow imply that I worded it incorrectly.

I never once spanked my kids, never laid a hand on them. I have been able to figure out how to handle them without resorting to spankings.

[JoePhilly]

97. Seems the person we are responding to can't read.

Neither of us advocated any such thing.

[JoePhilly]

96. Did you not read this part of my post, or ... are you just stupid ...

I'm going to go with "did not READ" because I did mention I have 3 kids.

And clearly you missed this in the post you now whine about ... I said ...

"For some kids, particularly those who have other issues, chemical imbalances, etc ... the situation is different ... but that is not to say that violent response is ok there either. Often chemical imbalances can be managed via diet and appropriate meds. And other behavioral efforts as well."

Did you not read that, or anything else I wrote?? Or again ... are you just stupid?

At no time did I advocate beating any child, let alone one who has a chemical imbalance.

Perhaps you and your parents need to have a talk.

My kids and I are doing great.

But perhaps you should get a reading tutor.

[laundry_queen]

84. Absolutely well said.

This MUST be repeated: as a parent, if you need to hit your child to change their behavior, YOU have failed. And you need to see it that way.

:applause:

[Brickbat]

11. No, it's not. In the heat of the moment, it shows a lack of control. If the parent cools down and

THEN hits the kid, that makes it even more terrifying, IMO.

[closeupready]

13. Sometimes, but not like in that video; something that doesn't hurt, but

sends a message of disapproval. If that doesn't change the behavior, then one would need to seek out a child psychologist, IMO, or some kind of behavioral specialist. I hope that doesn't sound like I'm advocating abuse, as I am most certainly not.

[NNN0LHI]

16. Wonder what the results would be if CNN asked if it was appropriate for a husband to smack his wife?

If I started a poll here asking that question I bet it would get locked right away. But it seems completely acceptable to ask if it is alright to hit little kids who are a less than a quarter of our size.

Crazy world.

Don

[abelenkpe]

17. +1000 nt

[MedicalAdmin]

69. Your post makes me think that inside of all too many people ....

.... is an inner slave owner just waiting to get out and exert their authority. My guess that for some people the urge to hit kids is a combination of frustration and the fact that they can get away with it. Diplomacy is harder work, but in the end, a more satisfying thing.

[War Horse]

77. Thank you n/t

[HughBeaumont]

92. Or similarly . . .

. . . the notion that somehow kids bullying other kids to the point of assault is "OK" and "Part of Growing Up", yet if another adult was doing this to your adult self, you'd never put up with that shit for even a second.

But it's perfectly acceptable to subject kids to this.

[Shandris]

18. In a perfect world, no.

In the real world, there are -rare- occasions when it can be useful. But not for pain, not 'beating', not anything like that. The 'swat' is how I've heard parents call it.

'Talking' to your children is wonderful in theory; reasoning with them even moreso. But there is every bit as much cruelty (if not more) in the manner in which some children are 'spoken' and 'reasoned' to as any quick, non-painful swat, and I'm talking about mental cruelty.

I've found it useful in life to notice that any time someone -categorically- denounces a common behavior, there is usually a circumstance where that behavior is still useful. It's why a theory of 'never violence' is one I can't ascribe to -- sometimes violence is needed. By the same token, always violence is JUST as dumb. There are (a lot of) times when peace is the preferred option. There are times for talking and reasoning, and there are times when a sudden attention is needed. The swat accomplishes that without being abusive.

So it depends on what you call 'corporal'. If you mean beatings and all that, well duh...no. If you mean a swat to the butt...yes. On rare occasions, not as common practice.

[NeedleCast]

20. Corporal punishment needs to be defined

I'm not a parent anyway, so I'm not going to vote. I wouldn't consider an open handed swat on a diapered butt to be inappropriate. My tolerance for corporal punishment doesn't go much beyond that though.

[HereSince1628]

41. Please don't let your not being a parent be a factor in recognizing child abuse

The acceptance of corporal punishment is cultural. We learn our family's and community's rules about it very early. We are also part of the society that determines the limits of what is acceptable as parental punishment and what is abusive.

Even if you aren't a parent, you have a general sense of the limits of socially acceptable behavior. When you experience your personal version of that societal limit being crossed, you know it. As someone old enough to use a computer, your social awareness and ability and willingness to communicate to police are essential in protecting the child you recognize as being punished beyond the limit of your culture.

[abelenkpe]

21. Please vote on the cnn poll too

right now 68 percent of those responding say yes. :cry:

[mzteris]

88. OMG

right wing fundie nutjobs who think beating children is what the good lord wants them to do.

They're insane. Every last one of them.

[Still Blue in PDX]

24. It's easy for me to say no now that my kids are grown.

My kids always knew I would spank them if I needed to, so I didn't need to more than once with two out of four kids and none with the other two. I asked them if they felt abused, and they ALL said they probably needed it far more than they got it.

I remember "getting a licking" with a yardstick, and it did not scar me for life. Even with the ceremonial run-up to it (going into the bedroom and assuming the position), It was over quicker and hurt a lot less than my mom losing her temper and asking me if I was standing behind the door when God was passing out brains.

[JoePhilly]

28. The logic you describe is that of an older child ... not of a younger one.

My father preferred corporal punishment, after all THAT is quick and easy.

For a small child, it is terrifying.

For an older child, male ... say 10-15, its preferred over grounding or other punishments, because its impact is usually over much much faster.

"Ok, you caught me ... smack me around some, and then let me go play".

The child doesn't learn much. Well ... they learn "don't get caught" ... and if caught "lie" ... take the beating, and move on.

Dad "sent a message", and who cares.

The real issue is with smaller kids. You scare them not only about doing something wrong, but also of having your parents THINK you might have done something wrong.

Parents who embrace corporal punishment are far more likely to assume guilt, apply punishment, and then learn the facts later.

[Still Blue in PDX]

53. I must have been old for my years, then, because my memories are from before I started school.

I wouldn't say that either I or my parents "embraced" corporal punishment. We weren't big on punishment at all, far more into teaching.

I could argue parenting techniques all day and all night and you might not be convinced that I know what I am talking about, but if you met my grown kids, the people who taught them in school and the people who employ them now you might be better convinced that I knew what I was doing.

:)

[mzteris]

91. times change

It used to be that everyone got whupped, so the ramifications and psychological damage wasn't as great as it is now, I think. Besides, I think "a minor whipping" back then was de rigueur so it WASN't as a big a deal.

However, we grow up. As a species. We live and we learn. HITTING KIDS IS NOT THE OPTIMAL WAY TO PARENT. It does not teach them the proper values in the long run.

I'm glad you have good kids. I'm glad I grew up to be a good parent, too. But beating kids. Hitting them. Spanking them. Slapping them. Whapping them up side the head . . . no. Not acceptable under any circumstances at any time. ever.

[JoePhilly]

98. My parents differed on this ... my father preferred corpral punishments ...

mom wanted to talk about it.

As I suggest in other parts of this thread, corporal punishment is the lazy path. Its quick, and generally effective in the immediate term. Talking about what happened takes longer, more thought, and leads to further reasoned discussions later.

Corporal tends to be 2 smacks and you're done.

And so, with one parent who is "lazy" and one who wants to talk it all over, the lazy one tends to back out. "Fine, you deal with it".

If BOTH parents are into corporal, then they work off each other ... if the parents are split on this, there is some relief, and if both are anti-corporal, then they work together on how to act consistently.

[HereSince1628]

25. The geography of corporal punishment in red states is...SO FRENCH!?

First...all of this data is not perfectly up to date...

First a cartogram showing average voting for republicans (red), the conservative party, and democrats (blue) the liberal party in the last 4 general elections. Sorry it IS a bit harder to see than a Mercator projection, but you'll probably recognize the states by looking at the second map...



In the following maps the key is green-banned in schools and homes, blue-banned in schools, red--allowed in schools and home

[Speck Tater]

26. If parents are allowed to beat up on kids then cops should be allowed to beat up on parents.

It's simple justice.

In fact, nobody should beat up on anybody else. Period. Ever.

[phleshdef]

29. Complicated. I was spanked and had the belt a few times, But it was done with a lot of self control.

I certainly know that kind of punishment can turn into abuse but I don't feel like I was abused in any way, shape or form myself. My parents were never really harsh about it and honestly, I don't think it even happened anymore after I was around 11 or 12 years old.

Having said that, if I had children, I would not punish them that way. I don't think its necessary and it would make me feel a little creepy if I was the one doing the punishing.

[Nye Bevan]

30. No. But my parents sure did (nt)

[hifiguy]

32. As a rule, no

though I don't think one swat on the butt ever hurt any kid. It didn't hurt me. Anything more is thoroughly inappropriate.

[BlueIris]

34. Hell, no. Physical abuse of children creates sociopaths. nt

[HereSince1628]

49. I can understand a fear of sociopaths...but it's bigger than that

With respect to personality disorders (setting aside a number of serious trauma related disorders like PTSD), all three clusters of personality disorder are associated with childhood maltreatment at statistically significant levels.

Among the personality disorders in the DSM-IV, Schizoid, Anti-social, Borderline, Narcissistic, Dependent, Depressive and Passive Aggressive are all significantly associated with childhood maltreatment. These correlations are not clean cause-and-effect sorts of things, some people exposed to mistreatment develop mental disorders as a result and other people do not.

Most of these disorders result in behaviors that do not threaten others. However these illnesses can be devastating to the people who are afflicted by them.

[kiva]

51. Until the past couple of generations,

corporal punishment was the norm; since the majority of people were not sociopaths, I think this is an overstatement.

[laundry_queen]

89. That's because there were other authoritarian controls in place

when you became an adult. Think about what life would have been like for someone who didn't conform to societal rules a few generations ago. So there were extensive extrinsic controls of behavior. Many of those extrinsic controls don't exist any longer, so now we must teach our children how to be moral intrinsically, teach them to do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do, not because of some external consequence. Hitting as punishment simply reinforces an extrinsic method of behavior control, which is counterproductive to the norms of the society we now live in.

[Llewlladdwr]

36. I'm amazed at the number of people who can't tell the difference between a spanking and abuse. NT

[TBF]

57. Some of us don't see a distinction. YMMV. nt

[Luminous Animal]

64. Don't you need to hit someone to spank them?

[Proud Liberal Dem]

37. I don't practice it nor believe in it

There's just too much of a risk of things getting out of control once you start using physical discipline, particularly in "heat of the moment" difficult situations. Plus, it's pretty hypocritical IMHO to be teaching kids that it's wrong to hit but then we turn right around and hit them when they're being bad. :shrug:

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. I don't know - but spanking is certainly a lot less abusive and destructive way to correct childhood

and early adolescent misbehavior than criminalizing basically normal childhood and early adolescent misbehavior. There are school systems that would never use the paddle - but would turn children over to the police and prosecutors - possibly even for incarceration or even in some particularly bizarre cases registered as sex offenders for behavior that would have once been dealt with by the paddle. In comparison, paddling might be misguided - but using the criminal justice system against children for basically normal misbehavior is not just misguided - it is flat out pure unadulterated evil.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. No.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

43. My parents went after me for LEAVING THE HOUSE.

I went outside to play with the neighbor kids. The parents were jailers and didn't want me to play with ANYONE.

They chased me down the sidewalk with a bamboo switch in their hands. It makes my BRAIN BURN even now, to think about the trauma.

I could run faster than they could. I was like the kid being chased in the cartoons where their legs are ahead of their head, and the legs are just running in a circle.

I still despise that image. To think that my college-educated parents didn't want me to go outside and play with anyone. I begged mom to join the Girl Scouts, because I went to a meeting and nobody picked on me, because there was adult supervision. But no, Mom had a problem when she was a brownie troop leader when my older sister was in Girl Scouts. That was her problem and she took it out on me.

[Liberal_in_LA]

44. NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Glassunion]

45. Depends.

I do not plan on having children, so I can say 100% that "I will never spank my children".

That said, I was a little shit on occasion growing up and my folks did on rare occasion spank me. Once and only once did I get the belt. Also once as a young adult my father punched me. All of those occurrences I can say that I deserved what I got when I got it.

[yellowcanine]

48. Just to be clear, what that judge did was not corporal punishment.

That was emotional and physical child abuse.

[tinkerbell41]

50. I whacked mine with a bag of lunchmeat once...

and after I did it we both dissolved into laughter. I have only one instance of where i could have killed the poor child it involved a brand new canopy bed being used for parallel bars. I seen RED collected myself and closed the door and walked away. I didn't believe in it I don't think I was ever whacked although my mom got some good use out of those matchbox cars vinyl racetracks on my brother.

[TBF]

55. My view - if it is not ok to go around punching folks in the street -

or swatting them or whatever ... when that is defined as "battery" and punishable by jail - why would you do it to someone in your own family that you supposedly love?

I have 2 children - we do time outs and take away privileges. You should see how fast my 4-yr old jumps if we threaten to take away his Wii game.

I do accept that sometimes folks lose their temper and might swat their kids - parenting is tough and can be stressful. But deliberately using corporal punishment on a regular basis and thinking it is ok? No, I don't accept that. If you have anger management problems do yourself a favor and get some help.

[MrSlayer]

58. Depands. A swat on the ass is different than a prologed beating.

So while I guess my answer would be yes in the broadest sense, there are definite limits.

[Raine]

60. Absolutely NO and neither did my parents. nt

[Laluchacontinua]

61. I vote for a swat on the pants v. verbal abuse & degradation any day.

[Luminous Animal]

66. A good parent would do neither.

[etherealtruth]

63. This mother of three votes absolutely not!

[YellowRubberDuckie]

71. No.

The only thing spanking your kids get you is a kid who hates you. I speak from experience. I hated my mom until only recently. And I'm still stand offish with her. She beat me with a belt when I was a senior in High School. From the time I could be reasoned with and they spanked me (a few were beatings, let's be honest, for no reason other than to make them feel powerful), I knew that it was ridiculous and just made me hate them. And that made them even more ineffectual.
Duckie

[Taverner]

72. Spanking is not only abusive, it doesn't work

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ilsa]

75. I answered No. But I wonder if there is a very

tiny percentage of kids that won't mind their parents unless they are threatened with a spanking, being hand to bottom.

[War Horse]

76. Hell no!

How can this be anything but a no brainer?

The question isn't about physically restraining your kids, or about consequences - it's about *corporal* punishment.

[mentalsolstice]

78. Those 7 minutes on video basically summed up my childhood

As a small child we had a belt cut up the middle lengthwise. As an adolescent and teen the favorite weapon was hair, I would get dragged around the house by a fistful of my own hair, however, I was also walloped with hairbrushes and hand-mirrors. The last time, I was 17ish, I was held down by a handful of hair (bent down at my waist), I blindly raised up my arm and punched and it landed and it bruised. I have never been hit or physically abused after that, however, I spent many years horrified that I hit someone and left a mark.

I chose not to have children (funny that, my abusive parent convinced me I wasn't fit), so it's hard to say what I think about corporal punishment. A quick swat for a tot that insists on playing in traffic after being told a number of times not to, is different than an uncontrolled minutes long beating. I was born in the 60s, and my non-abusive parent would spank...but it was done with a speech and it was very swift. The dread of knowing the punishment was coming (particularly the speech) was worse than the actual spanking. With my other parent, the beatings were totally out of hand and would often last for hours and days.

As an aside, not that it excuses abusive behavior, I was never a juvenile delinquent, I never used hard core drugs or committed other crimes, as a teen I wasn't sexually active. I entered college when I was 17 yo, I went on to earn 2 post-graduate degrees. I've been told by my abusive parent that I deserved harsh punishment because I was "mouthy or I talked back." For a long time I carried that burden of responsibility.

Eta: for a number of years I've talked to my spouse about corporal punishment in his family, I had a hard time explaining what it was like for me. The Adam's video finally gave a good depiction of a night in my household when I was 16 yo. Needless to say my husband, born in 1946, is horrified. He'd get a smack, but nothing like this...

[Worship Money]

80. Good God....No.

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. Generally no, but not absolutely. n/t

[astral]

93. My answer would be, "Sometimes." Not the correct answer, I know.

Kids shouldn't need to be hit to be disciplined. But a kid might need a spanking now and then if s/he is uncontrollable by the parent. Being in fear of getting in trouble all the time is sad, too, I remember knowing kids like that, in fear of their parents when they weren't even doing anything wrong.

But sometimes, a good parent has to make a decision on whether to use that option, and sometimes it's not inappropriate.

Tough call!

[Cerebral Assassin]

94. Yes

I got whupped pretty regular by my father whenever I misbehaved and it didn't do me any harm and probably did me a deal of good.

[SomethingFishy]

99. Oh yeah.. Beat em' and if that doesn't work beat them harder

there is even a book on how to do it. A CHRISTIAN guide to beating your kids.. check it out:


http://crooksandliars.com/susie-madrak/christian-child-rearing-manual-freque


"When the Pearls’ methods failed, I got stuck on method a. Blame yourself. I re-read To Train Up a Child. When I knew I had it right, I hit harder. Prayed harder. Did the whole disciplinary routine smiling from ear to ear and cooing like a dove. My babies acted freaked out by my grin (it was a lot like Debi Pearl’s vacuous, huge grin in the Tuchman interview) and were enraged by my efforts to “lovingly reconcile” with them after spankings. They kept up the fight. At this point, I think I would have admitted to myself that something was wrong with this whole child-training method and stopped torturing the toddlers all day to no avail. If you have to be cruel to get the Pearl method to work on some kids, it’s wrong. I had a husband, however, who was firmly convinced that Pearl was right. He went right for the b. and c. options: hit harder and blame the kid.

Options b. and c. are hard to do without getting angry. They are hard to do without leaving bruises, especially since Pearl discipline is cumulative: faced with entrenched rebellion, you are supposed to hit repeatedly and in the same areas. My ex-husband got angry with the kids for thwarting the Pearl method, but he remained coldly self-controlled. He also left bruises. A lot of bruises.

Why didn’t I stop him? I finally did, but early in my marriage I was paralyzed by fear and brainwashed by bad teaching. We both feared raising ungodly kids. We were looking for confirmation that some part of this system worked, and my ex-husband began to get results. The children flinched when he even moved. Cowered when he reached for a spanking implement. Had semi-seizures on the carpet following “biblical correction.” We got compliance with our wishes. Eventually, there wasimmediate and unquestioning compliance. My ex-husband had quelled the rebellion in three kids. He had created unfocused, freaked-out little robots who obeyed. The joy and the peace that was supposed to suffuse our home according to Pearl, we thought we could dispense with. Maybe it would come later; the Pearls are a little vague on where the peace and love should come into the process, just as they are a little vague on how you can keep “chastising” repeatedly with progressively increased force in the same places without leaving bruises."

[BOG PERSON]

100. Louis CK on hitting kids

"I really think it's crazy that we hit our kids. Here's the crazy part about it; kids are the only people in the world that you're allowed to hit. Do you realize that? They're the most vulnerable and the most desroyed by being hit but it's totally OK to hit them. And they're the only ones! if you hit a dog they will put you in jail for that shit. You can't hit a person unless you can prove that they were trying to kill you. But a little tiny person with a head this big who trusts you implicitly: 'FUCK 'EM, WHO GIVES A SHIT! LET'S ALL HIT THEM!' People want you to hit your kid. If your kid is making noise: 'HIT HIM!!!! HIT 'EM!!!! GRRRRRR'"