Sorry, But Police Are NOT Part Of The 99%.

[JFN1]

I'll make this brief:

OWS is not angst with the 1% because they possess wealth.

No.

The 99% is engaged in this very real fight because of what the MAJORITY OF THE 1% do with the staggering and tremendous power their wealth gives them.

It is not about money - it is about the exercise of power.

Which brings me to the police.

They remove THEMSELVES from the 1% by the manner in which they exercise the staggering and tremendous power being a cop gives them.

OWS will never be able to convince the MAJORITY of police to join our side, so long as their exercise of all that power they possess remains abusive, and therefore, personally profitable.

The wealthy form exclusionary social circles, where the 99% are unwelcome, unsolicited, and kept outside.

So do cops.

Question: How many police actually hang out and post here at DU? I'd love to know, because after being on this site for more than 8 years, I have not personally encountered any OP written by a police officer.

They have their own hangouts, where they exclude the rest of us, where we are unwelcome, unsolicited, and kept outside (think "cop bars" - or try to go to a police board - those I have visited require being a cop to even read posts).

The majority of police keep themselves apart, and do so willfully, and with what seems to be snering contempt for the general public - it is a culture of contempt (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/nyregion/officers-unleash-anger-at-ticket-fixing-arraignments-in-the-bronx.html">good example here).

So please - know WHAT you are fighting.

It is not wealth.

It is the abusive exercise of power - wealth is merely the vehicle for this abuse, just as the uniform and badge are for police.

Please - stop trying to convince the cops of the righteousness of our cause, because to them, it is immaterial. Based on the MAJORITY'S actions, police care only about their own power, and having more and more and more and more and more of it - kind of like, I dunno, the wealthy's drive for more and more and more and more and more wealth.

Look at our own history, read what relatives of cops say , look at how they conduct themselves right now - and then try to believe they are really on our side and just don't know it yet...

[bainz]

1. not sure if serious

[JFN1]

2. I am serious.

If you make this about money, you miss the point.

This is about power, and how it is exercised.

Outside of wealth and politics, the most powerful people in our society are police.

They are not joining us, because they do not see it as THEIR FIGHT.

The exclude THEMSELVES.

Economicaaly, yes, they are the same as the general public.

But any similarity between them and the 99% ends there...

[FarLeftFist]

101. I agree to a certain extent, here's why:

Economically, yes, they ARE part of the 99%, socially they are NOT. Most police officers, despite being in unions, are devoutly republican/conservative and this goes along with your narrative of them not being the 99% because just like repub/con politicians they want nothing but an authoritative police state and it is all about power for them, it also goes along with the narrative that they vote against their own economic interests. Also, I was just recently talking to a friend whose brother is a cop and he told me that more often than not they will instead of arrest a drug DEALER one time they will choose to just keep arresting the drug BUYERS so their arrest records keep going up. This is another example of as you noted, an abuse of power. In essence the police aren't part of the 99%, they are part of those who abuse power and live to be above the law just like the 1%. They are city employees who aren't to be held at a higher standard than teachers, sanitation workers, etc. NONE of this should lead to violence and I will continue to support non-violent occupy protests around the globe.

[Supply Side Jesus]

3. I'm a "cop"

I've voted D my whole life. I've work on plenty of campaigns.

I've marched against the Invasion of Iraq. I protested whenever the Bush showed his monkey ass in my state. I've participated in Rallies in the OWS/99%. My local city is gearing up to occupy a park, and I'm advising/helping them on whole to deal with "cops" and prepping involvement from Dem/progressive leaders in the community. I know several other "cops" who also support the OWS/99%. The more active members fully well know who I am and they are very grateful for whatever assistance I can provide.

But it's easier to cast the net of stereotypes than to deal with the nuances of reality. I see it every day on both sides of the star I wear.

Good and bad, they come in all stripes.

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. I worked along side cops for ten years in EMS.

You are very correct sir. But overall officers will need to make choices. It comes down to orders.

Trust me, it will come to that.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Supply Side Jesus]

11. it does

I talked ot one co=worker today and asked him if a curfew should over ride the right to assemble and the freedom of speech. He took a long moment and told me I had a very good point.

The judges and DAs also need to be pressured along with the Chiefs and Sheriffs.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. Yup, it will come to that

I had the choice to walk away...not immediately, I protected my kids...when issued an Ilegal order. Officers who work fr living it's harder.

[JFN1]

5. I never said all.

I said majority.

I have two cops in the family - one brother, one uncle. I love them both.

Neither of them gives a shit about OWS's cause. We're in a rural area, so no OWS protests around here; but my brother just yesterday was wishing for his chance to "knock protestor's heads."

I know there are some police who don't lose themselves in the inherent power of being a cop - but I have yet to personally meet any of them.

And from the outside, it certainly appears the MAJORITY have excluded themselves from our side in this fight.

[bainz]

8. Sounds like you guys have some issues.

You may want to look into some therapy. Not only for yourself, but your brother.

Even, if you don't, the fact that your brother stated that he wanted to knock some heads of "others", I would hope that you have already reported that to his superiors, or at least the media.

[JFN1]

16. Some years ago

my brother and I got into it really bad. We stopped being able to talk on the phone due to all of the screaming (mine too) and getting together in person was not an option (I lived 2500 miles away then). This was before the Internet, so I wrote him a letter, expressing my side of the fight.

He wrote me back on his police department's letterhead, and used a police department envelope to mail it.

At the end of the letter, he was so angry and frustrated, he found - and then stamped - the bottom of his letter with the police department's notary public stamp.

Not only is this ethically and morally wrong, it is a felony in his state (and in most) to misappropriate a notary public stamp, for the stamp represents in actual terms, the State's signature.

So I reported him - to his boss, to the station's notary, to the Chief of Police, to the Mayor, to the State Attorney General, and to every agency with jurisdiction.

Nothing.

The Chief finally contacted my local police, who stopped by my apartment and told me, and I quote: "If you know what is good for you, you will drop this."

So I dropped it.

Given that my local police were willing to stop me from legally pursuing enforcement of the law, I don't feel this is a personal problem.

Rather, it is a systemic problem, and one we (the 99%) must face, and figure out how to fix...

[UnrepentantLiberal]

73. Did your brother joke about beating up innocent people?

Is that why you tried to end his career? If not, your family is as dysfunctional as they come.

[timtom]

100. I tried to recommend this thread

but to no avail. This response underscores the deeply ingrained problem with police across this nation: unrepentant hubris!

And to those who disagree: no, I won't be thanking any of them for their "service."

I didn't expect any thanks when I enlisted in the Marine Corps. I was just glad that I was able to reintegrate into society with no problems.

[Supply Side Jesus]

10. you did say majority.

i believe it really just comes down to education. educating the police to why the OWS includes them. Yet, OWS is still in the early stages. There are a plethora of excellent and valid points coming from it. But there are those on the fringes that spook alot of the "cops."
I was quoted in the local paper today, by name, on why I was at the weekly OWS rally. When i was leaving work I talked to the grave crew and they gave me some shit about it. But i tried to take the opportunity and tell them why it applies to them, pension...ect. One asked if it was a movement to go to Socialism....thats the kind of silly shit they hear and are not sure if they should believe it.

I work with some very intelligent guys but are dumb as doorknobs when it comes to how the Government works beyond a county level.

I truly believe educating and reaching out to them can pay off. They are a tough nut to crack and are suspicious of most people. Believe it or not we deal with some difficult people on a daily basis and that breeds a suspicious mind set.

but also remember, if they receive a lawful order they will carry it out. the bullies who like to pepper spray and use excessive force are hated also. behind the blue line battles rage.

The politicians, judges, and DAs need also be pressured. Albany is a good example.

[coalition_unwilling]

19. Sounds like some serious cognitive dissonance here. The brother

whom you claim you love is threatening felony assault under color of authority.

So tell me again, why exactly do you 'love' him?

You should ask yourself why the worst abuses of power in New York City were being committed by white-shirted 'supervisors'. Could it be that the rank and file actually identified with OWS to the point of refusing unlawful orders, leaving Kelly and his junta only the mid-level supervisors to carry out their assaults?

[LanternWaste]

106. "Most", "many", "vast amount" are qualifiers we consciously use

"Most", "many", "vast amount" are qualifiers we consciously use when we have zero idea what the numbers really are, and are instead merely shooting from the hip.

[Hissyspit]

6. The problem is...

when the protester gets in a riot police officer's face and shouts "Who do you protect? Who do you serve?, as I have seen several times over the past few weeks"

What is the answer in that officer's mind? And how will they respond to it?

[WilliamPitt]

26. +1

[Fumesucker]

34. Perhaps you can explain why cops virtually never step forward to finger dirty cops?

It is so rare as to be nearly unknown for a dirty cop to be exposed by his brother officers.

The cop who shot Scott Olsen is still anonymous because his brother officers are refusing to identify him. Someone knows who shot that tear gas canister and the chances that they will tell what they know are slim to none.

If things are as you say and the bullies and abusers are hated, why are they so, so seldom turned in by their brother officers?

[Supply Side Jesus]

80. depends what dirty is

I saw a person slug my partner in the face unprovoked in a house party. My partner took the person to the ground and handcuffed. The rest of the party mobbed up and were going to attack. I peppered sprayed the lot of them and they retreated. The person was arrested and shipped off to jail and the party goes called us "dirty."

So, the question is, what is dirty?

"dirty cops" are removed a lot more than you realize. It's usually done in IA, and anything discovered in IA while Garrity is applied is not admissible in a criminal investigation. therefor, you never hear about it.

there is more to consider, but I'll leave that for another day.

[RegieRocker]

61. i have met a few good cops so I want to ask you a question.

How are the bad ones able to get and keep the job? Isn't there anything in place to remove the bad ones? Why don't the good ones inform their superiors about them?

[Supply Side Jesus]

82. usually because they have friends above

the good ol' boy system is alive and well and double standards run amok. Internal Affairs "cop the cops." That is only as strong as the will of the administration to follow through the investigations. There is not set standard nation wide and it varies greatly from agency to agency.

[Supply Side Jesus]

83. dupe

[TroglodyteScholar]

66. Do you know any cops who think of the rest of us as "little people?" n/t

[TheKentuckian]

76. They see us as perps, potential perps, and civilians. They are apart from us and serve power and

protect wealth.

They are by culture distinct and "other" and we are lower, under their dominion, an at the least a potential threat. Their orders come from the wealthy through the powerful, just by structure they are on the opposite side of the divide.

[Supply Side Jesus]

84. LOL

someone is off their meds

[TheKentuckian]

98. What meds are those, Kool-aid? What did I say out of step with reality?

Keep in mind I am no stranger to police, having them in my family, having worked with and supervised retired police, having worked for them, having dealt with them in the streets, and socialized with them.

To deny the separate and clearly not subservient culture is blowing smoke on a whole new level. Cops generally see themselves as a distinct culture that is an authority over the civilian one.

[timtom]

102. Oh, no they're not!

I knew a good chap who worked in a University environment. He decided to quit to become a police officer. Six months later, I ran across him and asked him how things were going. We exchanged pleasantries for a bit. I then asked him about all the tasings occurring and he said, " I support it! You don't know the kind of scum we have to deal with."

That's a hell of a preframed perception with which to go into a situation to hopefully defuse it!

On the other hand, I read of a police officer who was called to a domestic disturbance. Upon approaching the dwelling, he heard loud screaming and arguing. Just then, a television set came crashing through the window. He banged on the door. A voice inside bellowed, "Who is it??" He answered, "TV repairman." The enraged person inside burst out laughing, ultimately let the officer in, and voila! Crisis defused by a caring and clever responder.

[Supply Side Jesus]

78. never seen it that type mentality

that being said, when a civilian tells a "cop" what the law is, even though they are glaringly wrong, can get a "cop" to be very dismissive of that person.

[TroglodyteScholar]

105. Why do you use quotes with "cop?"

And where did this glaringly wrong interpretation of the law come from? I'm confused by your response.

To be clear, you're saying that in your law enforecment career you never encountered any "cop" who expressed a view that police are above the law?

[TroglodyteScholar]

110. I see.

I just wanted to be sure I understood you. Judging by your silence, I can say with certainty now that I do.

[Maine-ah]

67. and I know you are not the only one

I'm not going to call him out though. :hi:

[UnrepentantLiberal]

77. Yup, they do.

Are there police who have an authority problem? Yes. Are there police who are violent and have no business wearing a badge? Yes. Are there police who really do care about protecting the community? Yes. Like I always say, if you want to like the police, work at a convenience store. You may not enjoy seeing a cruiser in your rear-view mirror but you'll definitely like seeing a black and white car drive into the parking lot when you're standing behind a cash register at 3:00AM. And of course you get to know them and realize - surprise - they can be pretty cool. (It helps if you have the balls to identify someone who stole beer from you to their face instead of cowering behind a spotlight... I'm cuckoo, no one steals from MY store and gets away with it. They like that.)

Police are distant because most people are fearful and standoffish toward them. (Until they need the police to protect them.) It can be a vicious cycle.

[Supply Side Jesus]

85. Thank you

you hit it right on the head

[ZombieHorde]

97. Why don't police officers stop each other from hurting other people?

Why do cops try to stop people from filming them?

Why are cops beating the shit out of peaceful protestors?

Why aren't the good cops defending us from the bad cops?

What would you do if you saw some cops beating the shit out of peaceful protestors? Or spraying pepper spray at young women who are being obedient? Would you try to arrest the aggressors?

[Dragonbreathp9d]

7. Unrec- disagree entirely

[JFN1]

13. Why do you disagree?

Please, I want to know.

[Jnana]

14. For the most part, the police have exhibited remarkable restraint.

Who knows, perhaps it because OWS has a white face.

[JFN1]

17. This does not disprove my point.

Where are the legions of cops coming out publically against the violence thus far?

Where is the sea of voices from cops out there standing with Scott Olsen?

Because as far as I can tell, they are conspicuously absent...

[coalition_unwilling]

20. Playing the race card, eh? News flash: police are supposed

to exhibit restraint. It's a part of their fucking job description. The only extraordinary thing has been the police assault in New York City and the police riot in Oakland.

Get a clue.

[sabrina 1]

41. You're kidding, right?

American citizens are peacefully exercising their 1st Amendment rights. What restraint is necessary in this situation?

What SHOULD be happening IF our Police Depts worked for the people who pay their salaries (and maybe that's something that's going to need to be addressed in the not-so-distant future if they continue these criminal acts against American citizens), but what should be happening is that they should be protecting those American Citizens and making sure that nothing interferes with their exercising of those rights.

Instead they are the ones rioting and committing assault on unarmed, innocent civilians. As Sgt Shamar Thomas said, 'this doesn't make you tough'. No, it does not. I have never seen people so angry before, even people who are not involved in this movement.

Nor have I ever seen a bunch of men and women look so cowardly. Dressed up in their comic-book outfits as of they were frightened to death of unarmed fellow citizens, armed to the teeth as if they were going to a war zone. What are they afraid of? Compared to them, the people look like and act like heroes, and that is what those watching, all over the world, are seeing.

Where is the tough guy who was hiding behind his Robo cop outfit when he shot and nearly killed an Iraq veteran and then shot at those who tried to help him?? Not so brave now, is he? A real hero who knew he had done no wrong would have stepped forward immediately. This coward is hiding now. He shot a hero, then shot some more heroes. And that was not the only assault on innocent people that night. You call this restraint? The NYPD was restrained? I think you are trying to be funny.

And the cowardly politicians who claim to represent us are silent also.

This movement has revealed something very ugly about our so-called civilian police force. Many people are asking now, 'who are they working for'?

[Occulus]

65. Go tell it to Scott Olsen.

He was nearly killed. By the police.

[applegrove]

15. There has been not much violence considering how many demonstrations are going on around

the country. I think both sides can take credit for that peace.

[coalition_unwilling]

18. You're insanely over-generalizing here and engaging in epicly

shallow analysis to boot.

Here's the best test for determining whether you or anyone else is in the 99%. Do you or they drive yourself or themselves to work? If you answered yes, then you are in the 99%. Why? Because the 1% hire people to drive them (their 'drivers' or 'chauffeurs').

Most cops do not have 'drivers'. Most cops drive themselves to work.

It is true that many cops are little better than lackies and lickspittles for the ruling class and that, furthermore, the profession may attract more than its share of socio- and psychopaths. But even granted those truths, cops are still part of the 99%.

So, you ask, if that is true, why don't the cops support us? I think the best answer for that might derive from V.I. Lenin's distinction between a "class in itself" and a "class for itself" (meaning a class that is fully aware of its class status and role in the class struggle).

You can bet the ruling class is casting nervous glances at the police (and any private security forces it hires) for signs that the police's loyalties are in play. Because the minute the police join our side en masse, it's game over for the ruling class.

I know what I'm fighting against and what I'm fighting for. My fight is not with cops, my fight is with capitalism and the extreme concentrations of wealth it promulgates.

[JFN1]

22. Sorry, but I've gone deeper.

It is not merely the accumulation of wealth, but what that wealth represents in terms of real world power (political, econmomic, social, etc.) - and how those who have/are accumulating vast amounts of it, are USING IT.

Be it economic power, or political power, or police power - we're only where we are because of the ABUSE of these powers - not because those who possess that power are exercising it in a socially responsible manner.

STOP making this about MONEY - for this is the shallow path, and if we continue to focus on the money itself, rather than the power money brings and how it is being exercised by those who possess it, we will eventually be beaten down by public opinion shaped by those with the money/power to shape it.

Stop focusing on "what ought to be" and focus on "what is."

If we allow our focus to fall on the braches, rather than the root, we will NOT solve our problem, and we will merely be kicking it down the road for another generation to suffer...

[coalition_unwilling]

23. You may have 'gone deeper' but you completely ignored my

objections to your original post. Are you claiming that cops belong in the 1%? If so, by what logic? Or are you saying that there is no such thing as a 1% but only people who mis-use power, whether their wealth places them in the top or the bottom 1%?

I will NOT stop making this about money, since I never made it about MONEY but instead about the CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH in the hands of the few (the 1%) at the expense of the many (99%). Stop creating straw men.

Let's focus on 'what is,' shall we? Let's start with a pertinent what is: 1% of the country's population controls 40% of its wealth. Here's another 'what is': 10% of the country's population controls 80% of the wealth. Starting to see a connection between the concentration of wealth and the problems faced by the bottom 90%? If not, then nothing I say will convince you or educate you.

[saras]

21. The police are in a unique position - they have to choose, and it's visible immediately

A good number of DUers could be working sixty-hour weeks bolstering the control of the 1%, and it won't be visible to us. It is obvious which way a cop leans, and the next test will come when the 1% starts threatening the income of the cops if they don't obey the 1%. THAT's when you find out which side a cop is on. Right now you can see what side they'd like to be on.

[Marr]

89. Exactly. Well put. n/t

[Skip Intro]

24. Unrec. OP is total bullshit. nt

[JFN1]

25. Why do you think so?

I don't think calling my OP "bullshit" is a valid criticism, so please explain why you feel it is "bullshit," and where in my analysis and argument I've gotten it wrong; for if I am wrong, I want to understand why. Please help me out here.

[Tsiyu]

37. Not that poster but wanted to add to what's below

I understand your feelings and why you have written this OP. I am full of rage when i think how some cops abuse their positions.

But there are many others who enable the 1%.

For example, those who work in banks and as loan officers, who follow the banks' greedy policies.

Those who work as sales weasels for the Big Pharma Cos

Those who work in insurance offices, denying insured people their medical care....


I could go on. These people are part of the 99%

However, they ENABLE the 1%


I understand what you're saying, I just believe more cops will be siding with us before long than will be doing the bidding of the 1%

[mmonk]

27. Wow, how does one respond?

First, one is in the 99% if they are not in the top 1% of income in this country. Second, cops are people and thus vary in their outlooks and political opinions. Third, they don't all just keep to themselves.

[JFN1]

28. I did not say "all"

I said, repeatedly, "majority."

Also, we MUST look beyond the mere vehicle used to obtain the powers now being used so abusively against us.

Yes, economically, your despcription of the 99% fits.

But wealth is not the true measuring stick here - power is.

Money = Power.

One should not be blinded by the first, which is easy to see, and thus miss the significance of the last, which is more difficult...

[mmonk]

29. No doubt they can be given orders that do not favor the 99%.

I consider that a failure of command structure.

[Dover]

30. If we can respond to others with what connects us rather than that which divides

by recognizing our shared humanity, then I think the prospects for a positive, engaging and heartfelt exchange is
greatly enhanced.

If one approaches another without seeing them and their humanness, then what chance have they been given to respond humanely?

I see nothing constructive about your suggestion. What are the benefits of such a mindset?

[Fumesucker]

32. Accepting reality?

The cops may belong to the 99% but they are not on the side of the 99%, they are sworn to follow the orders of the 1% because the 1% is who gives the orders in our society.

[Dover]

35. That's the reality you've decided upon which doesn't leave room for an alternative.

The same could be said about our soldiers, but they too are human beings and perhaps there are some on Du
who might speak to the 'reality' you propose.

You haven't said what is constructive about what is presented in the OP. How will that serve you/us?

[Fumesucker]

36. Accepting reality is always constructive..

Show me where police officers have turned in brother officers who have done immoral things in the course of their duties. We all know such behavior is quite common and yet the number of cops drummed out of the force because other officers dropped the dime on them is extremely low.

[Dover]

39. I hope you, yourself, are never on the receiving end of such typecasting.

Those who have been there understand that that is the very basis of abuse of power...to refuse to see the other as
a fellow human being. If you can dehumanize a person or a group then it's much easier to do harm. Ironic how our
projections mirror our own issues.

[Fumesucker]

40. What makes you think I haven't been on the receiving end of typecasting?

Of course cops are human beings, human beings who wield far more power than the average human, the power of life and death.

It's telling that you totally ignored my point about cops remarkably seldom policing themselves.

[SkyDaddy7]

31. Well, I know cops are not subjected to the same...

legal system as we in the 99% are.

[Karenina]

81. And get highly agitated

if they are...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x5042592

[SkyDaddy7]

104. EXACTLY! nt.

[Tsiyu]

33. Can't agree

There are a lot of violent thugs posing as cops, I agree.

But there are also a lot of cops who are decent, caring people who put up with the very worst in our society.

Personally, far more cops have helped me in this life than have harmed me.

The few that did do harm caused a lot of pain and suffering, true, because of the nature of their work.

But I won't judge all cops based on the actions of a few.

[Fumesucker]

38. Judge the majority by their silence in the face of the actions of the few..

The vast, vast majority of cases of police abuse, no cop ever willingly steps forward to speak up and condemn the behavior.

One's morality stature is not only based on what one does that one should not, it is also based on what one doesn't do that one should do.

[Tsiyu]

42. And doctors don't speak up when other doctors fuck up

Bank managers don't narc on other bank managers who do nefarious things

Mortgage underwriters didn't do a fucking thing to stop their shady lending practices or turn each other in when high risk mortgages were bringing in the dough

Insurance adjusters don't report on the guy in the next cubicle denying a legitimate claim

DHS officers don't report each other when they abuse their power over parents


They are ALL ENABLERS of the 1%, and while it's true the 1% can't do it without willing stooges, those stooges exist in all businesses and government agencies.

[Fumesucker]

44. None of those people have been given special powers over the rest of the population..

I had a family member who tried to turn in a major tax cheater, hundreds of thousands of dollars per year going unreported, my family member was the manager of the business in question and had extensive documentation of the fraud going on.

The IRS couldn't possibly have been less interested.

[Tsiyu]

45. The power to kill someone on the operating table

the power to foreclose on your house

the power to deny you medical care

the power to take away your kids


To me, these are pretty special powers.

Maybe it's just me

[Fumesucker]

46. Any of these people remotely as powerful as a police officer?

ETA: Evidently you disagree with my theory that one's moral stature is also determined by what one does not do that one should do.

[Tsiyu]

48. depends on the circumstance

a cop may get you sent to jail or he may kill you

a doctor may write the wrong scrip or he may kill you

The power over life and death is equal for a surgeon or a cop and there are bad surgeons and bad cops.


a cop may break down your door and cost you a lot of money in legal fees and you may lose your home

a banker may foreclose on your entire house and cost you a lot of money in legal fees and you may lose your home

The power to economically disadvantage you is equal, and there are both bad bankers and bad cops


a cop may beat you up and refuse to let you get medical care for hours or days and you could die

an insurance adjuster can deny your claim for heart surgery for months or forever and you could die

the power over your health and life are the same.....i could go on, but that's the way i see it


And I agree that character is shown in what's left undone as well as what's done. I just think there are a lot of people who enable the 1% as part of their jobs, to the detriment of us all, but in the end they are still part of the 99%

[Fumesucker]

51. No they aren't the same..

None of those people could have you handcuffed and laying face down on the ground and deliberately shoot you in the back and then walk out of prison after only serving a single year.

Johannes Mehserle did exactly that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BART_Police_shooting_of_Oscar_Grant

[Tsiyu]

92. People do far worse things to other human beings

rape, torture, kill, and never get caught. And they aren't cops.

Many of us have the potential to kill someone in cold blood; that is not a cop's sole domain.

Others, not as part of their jobs, normally, except maybe military, but violence and murder are done - human to human - every single day. In many cases, if not for cops, the murderers would not be caught.

[joeglow3]

95. And insurance rep could kill you and do ZERO jail time

happens every day.

[diveguy]

43. OP is completely off base and wrong

The OWS is about money. Power comes with money, but money is the root of it all.

Why would we start post's. 90% of the responses would be derogatory remarks toward us. The name calling would start and it would go downhill quick.

I am sure there are several leo's on this board. Hell, two of them told me about DU. But, it came with a warning. " Don't let them know your a cop, You'll just a PIG to them after they found out."

And also, instead of trying to "convince" a bunch of people with alpha personalities. Try educating them. They will convince themselves with the right evidence. It's worked with several of my coworkers.

[Fumesucker]

47. Money wouldn't matter if people weren't using vast sums to purchase power..

I've posted places where every single reply I got was derogatory, I did it for years.

And as far as the police being pigs, they think of the 99% as dirty fucking hippies so it's even.

[NNN0LHI]

49. I am going to recommend this thread not because I agree but because it is a good discussion

I couldn't say all cops are assholes any more than I can say all the autoworkers I worked with were assholes.

Some were. Some weren't.

Simple as that.

Don

[baldguy]

50. Where are the cops in this picture?

[Tom Rinaldo]

52. Most of us support the 1% daily, through our work or our consumption

The fact that police do also does not remove them from the 99%. There are valid police functions that virtually all of us depend on to varying degrees and want to have ongoing in our society. Because the police are armed it is important that they act within the confines of legitimate orders issued by acknowledged authorities (higher ranking police officials and ultimately elected civilian leaders) rather than impose their own individual views on society through use of force. That puts them in a difficult position, much like soldiers. Yes they should refuse to honor immoral orders, but in the chaos of the moment it is not always easy for them to weight whether an order is so henious that it must be disobeyed.

I disagree strongly with your assertion. I believe a strong majority of police are basically decent people who make errors at times doing a stressful and difficult job. I am willing to agree that the small minority who do not fit that description might make up a larger percentage of that work force than is average for most professions. I think that goes with the territory when recruiting people who are authorized to use force when needed, same with the military. But again I believe the large majority are decent. Much attention should be paid to police officials in command positions. They are the ones who generally initiate crowd control actions and they are the ones who give the orders on how those actions shoud be undertaken.

[Fumesucker]

55. Please show evidence of the "decent cops" turning in their brother officers who "go over the line"..

It's so uncommon as to be extremely remarkable.

One's morality is not solely determined by what one does that one should not do, it is also determined by what one does not do that one should have done.

[NNN0LHI]

56. I know this police chief who is currently in federal prison. I know the cop who put him there too

http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=news/local&id=7448974

[Fumesucker]

57. There's one..

As I said, so uncommon as to be quite remarkable..

[newspeak]

96. yeah my boss some years ago was LAPD

during the sixties. He did tell me some stories, things he witnessed, but did not turn in his fellow brother. I thought I read here a few days ago that there were some NYPD who refused the OWS detail?

Cops like my ex-BIL and some I had dealt with working at DMV did not deserve to be officers. Some were downright scary. However, my boss, even though he kept silent, and my great uncle who was FDR's bodyguard and then worked in the juvenile division in phoenix were good officers. Also, I've gone on the citizen's graveyard ride in phoenix and the officer I rode with did not seem to have a major ego problem. I asked him about situations where he had to draw his gun and was surprised he answered that his years of service, he had only drawn his gun a couple of times. Of course, this was back in the seventies, before tasers.

I believe there are officers who stand with the 99%ers and probably have a hard time deciding support over job. Of course, you're going to get those who went into law enforcement not to protect and serve the populace, but because they like the authority and power the badge provides.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

53. I suspect only a minority of the populace are.

The self-proclaimed 99% clearly don't actually comprise or speak for all but the richest 1% of the people, or even for more than 50%.

[bigtree]

54. props to the cops

most of em :applause:

[bamacrat]

58. Economically they are, intellectually not so much.

There are good cops, you just never see or hear from them.

[lynne]

59. Unrec. Possibly the OP doesn't personally know any -

- police officers and is generalizing on what they see from the media. It is far from reflective of the majority of police officers and negatively paints all of them with a broad brush.

[pipi_k]

60. So I guess we're to assume...

that if anyone ever commits a crime on you or a family member or breaks into your home, instead of calling the cops, you'll call Joe Blow the factory worker to come take care of things...

OK.


PS...big fat unrec for broad brush attack on an entire group of people, many of whom lay their lives on the line every day, even to protect those who think they are power mongers or, to use a 60s term, "pigs".

[Fumesucker]

63. If the officer who shot Scott Olsen was proud of what he did he would own it publicly..

That was a prime terrorist tactic that was used by the police, wound someone and then go after those who come to aid.

If his department and his brother officers were proud of what he did they would own it publicly.

An innocent man lies in a hospital bed with brain damage, there is video of the incident, no one is coming forth to speak up and claim responsibility.

Here's a freeze frame of the explosive projectile leaving the officer's hand pointed to by the yellow arrow, it's clearly evident in the video, you can see it arc and even emit smoke puffs...

[pipi_k]

71. Don't know how that applies to what I wrote...

so I guess your reply is for the OP...

?

[Fumesucker]

75. What you wrote had nothing to do with the OP anyway..

I actually construed some of it as a personal attack, the parts that weren't a giant straw man, anyway.

[pipi_k]

94. Yeah, whatever...

If you are looking for an argument, take it elsewhere, OK?

[redqueen]

62. Yes, they absolutely are. (nt)

[Hotler]

64. k&r n/t

[aikoaiko]

68. I reject your argument that police are not in the 99%.

The police tactics and abuses of power of are symptom of the problem and not the problem.

Occupiers, in my opinion, are fighting for the police the same way unions are fighting for scabs.

I find your plea to turn on the cops to be analogous to those who encourage the police to to turn on the occupiers.

[Walk away]

69. I have know many police officers in my life and there are some real jerks...

as well as some kind and concerned people. Just like any group of people they run the gamut and some have good or bad times just like the rest of us.
They are supposed to receive training that enables them to do their jobs well without acting out one way or the other. No system is perfect and when a police officer breaks the rules or can't handle their job he should be punished and or removed from the force. In some places that is what actually happens. When it doesn't it's up to the citizenry to put a stop to it.
I have a friend who was abused by her police officer husband. His fellow "Cops" were the ones who saved her life, got him help and kept her and her children safe. Nobody banded against her. Not even his closest friends because protecting her was their job.

[Fumesucker]

70. If someone was abusing their spouse to the point the spouse's life was in danger..

That person needs punishment, not help.

[pipi_k]

72. People who beat their spouses

are not "normal".

That means they have something seriously wrong with them.

People who have emotional problems need mental health treatment.

I'm not saying they should escape the justice system. I am saying that "punishment" alone isn't going to solve any problems.

[Fumesucker]

74. It takes them away from the person they are abusing..

And lets them know that society does not approve of their actions.

Punishment alone seems to suffice for a lot other crimes, if that were not so the USA wouldn't have the highest incarceration rate in the world, why is assaulting one's spouse so different than assaulting anyone else?

[pipi_k]

93. As I said...

I never claimed that someone should not pay their debt to Society, whatever the crime is.

And no...imprisonment alone doesn't suffice for a lot of other crimes.

If it did, there would be a lower rate of recidivism.


People don't generally run around committing crimes against their fellow humans because they are mentally healthy. Some of them might see no other option.

Fix the underlying cause...hopelessness, or mental/emotional problems, at the same time as we take them out of society for a while, and the rate of recidivism would probably decrease significantly

[Walk away]

109. He got both.

[Logical]

79. But did the cop get protected from arrest? I bet he did. You or I would have been in jail!

[Tom Rinaldo]

90. This is morphing into a differernt matter

A discussion of the expectation to not "rat out" (I use that term intentionally since there is a cross cultural negative association often given to snicks and those accused of ratting out peers) each other inside police culture is not the same as the premise of the OP.

We all grow up mostly disliking anyone who is perceived as a "tattle tale" Inside the military, inside the police, inside any group of people who count on each other to back them up in life and death situations, that is strong psychological and peer pressure not to get a peer in trouble. Or at least to keep your mouth shut - especially if one rightly or wrongly believes that someone fucked up under specific stress and is not intrinsicaly a "bad apple". I am not defending "closing ranks" behaviour. I am just saying that usually the reason why it is done has nothing to do with supporting the 1%

[Logical]

91. I agree with you that the cops do not like the 1$ much either. But they do tend....

to get away with way too much abuse (some minor) of citizens with very little repercussions.

[newspeak]

99. got a story about one of those cops that really shouldn't be in the position

It was in the nineties and we lived in a relatively small town in northern california. My son had come home upset because they had been pulled over by the local police and they wanted to check their car. My son asked, "don't you need a warrant?" The cop laughed at him and asked him if he learned that from his teacher in government class. He told him, "see this badge, this badge gives me the right to do anything I want." After they checked the car they let him go. I was so mad, I went up to the station and there was the cop, a sargeant. I basically told him that what he did was wrong, we still live in the US and my son is a citizen. Anyway, afterward my son told me to let it go. He played in a band-the band played for a city function in the park and that cop after they got done playing told my son to leave. I really feared that cop if my son was caught alone that he'd shoot him in the back. My son was one of the most likeable kids in school, didn't believe in violence and had many friends across cliches who would defend him. He was and still is a nice, friendly guy. But, there were rumors in the HS that some in the police force were in the klan.

Anyway, there was an investigation with the cops in town for beating up a hispanic man who's wife with a newborn baby witnessed the beating. My son knew a couple of the newer, friendlier cops and would talk to them. One told him not to mess with the guy because the cop was dangerous. The town was growing quickly and new cops were hired, but I think the older ones who'd been there for awhile, some should have never been cops.

[slackmaster]

86. If you excluse police, the "99%" is no longer 99%

How many other groups of working class people are you willing to exclude wholesale, based solely on their occupations?

[riderinthestorm]

87. Interesting convo. Did you see this article from the NYTimes about cops and the ticket fixing case?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/29/nyregion/officers-unleash-anger-at-ticket-fixing-arraignments-in-the-bronx.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&hp

From the article:

"The unsealed indictments contained more than 1,600 criminal counts, the bulk of them misdemeanors having to do with making tickets disappear as favors for friends, relatives and others with clout. But they also outlined more serious crimes, related both to ticket-fixing and drugs, grand larceny and unrelated corruption. Four of the officers were charged with helping a man get away with assault.

Jose R. Ramos, an officer in the 40th Precinct whose suspicious behavior spawned the protracted investigation, was accused of two dozen crimes, including attempted robbery, attempted grand larceny, transporting what he thought was heroin for drug dealers and revealing the identity of a confidential informant.

The case, troubling to many New Yorkers because of its implication that the police officers believed they deserved special treatment, is expected to have long tentacles. Scores of other officers accused of fixing tickets could face departmental charges. Some officers have already retired. Moreover, the indictments may jeopardize thousands of cases in which implicated officers are important witnesses and may be seen as untrustworthy by Bronx juries. "



You bring up a troubling point JFN1. Some food for thought which is always good on this site. Thanks for posting. Hope you read the NY Times article.

[Marr]

88. I couldn't disagree more.

The job of the police is often to protect that 1%, true, and they may as individuals be some of the last to come around to the realization that they are part of the 99%, but they are, and I think they will-- eventually.

[proud patriot]

103. I disagree

[NeedleCast]

107. Yes They Are - A Lot Of People Don't Know They're Part of the 99%

[11 Bravo]

108. Please post a list of occupations which you, in your wisdom, deem to be acceptable participants ...

in futute OWS rallies.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

111. Cops do not have the power you think they do

Just ask any who've had the misfortune of arresting or ticketing someone for completely legit reasons who's buddies with a mayor or city councilperson.

As far as there being no cops here at DU....you're wrong.