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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:23 AM
Original message
Trust the Generals?
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 08:25 AM by bigtree
ALL hail the conquering General Petraeus. After leading and orchestrating the muddled and seemingly intractable U.S. military offensives in Iraq and Afghanistan, a critically victorious Petraeus has been kicked upstairs to head our civilian Central Intelligence Agency whose pessimistic intelligence assessments of the conflicts he was managing abroad contrasted sharply with his rosy assessments of the 'progress' and 'success' the general was working to convince Congress and the nation was taking place in the deadly Mideast and Asian quagmires.

From the start, intelligence officials openly complained and questioned how Petraeus could separate his unwavering confidence in the efficacy and ability of the military forces from the convoluted reality on the ground. Now comes a http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/cia-to-fuse-troops-1201394.html">report that Petraeus is already trying to impose his operationally-biased military perspective on the CIA assesments of the military deployments by allowing the 'commanders' in the field to weigh in at the beginning of the process of assessment to 'narrow the gulf between the intelligence community's sometimes negative view of the war versus the more positive views sometimes expressed by commanders in the fight'.

The value of those rosy, more optimistic has always been measured in the intelligence agency's assessments from the commanders and has always been an integral contribution to their decision-making analyses. The difference in this policy change will be the actual inclusion of those conflicting military viewpoints in the final civilian-oriented product. The intelligence officers will also have the option of revising their assessment after input from the military.

Although the CIA says the change was planned before Petraeus took charge, the general, nonetheless, approved the plan and ordered it implemented. Now the general won't have to endure an official rebuke or criticism of military policy or action from his intelligence officers. That's what Petraeus faced repeatedly as each and every report coming from the civilian agency clashed with his and his fellow commanders' optimism and enthusiasm for continuing their military offensive unabated of unaltered.

Spencer Ackerman, an American national security reporter and blogger who began his career at The New Republic and now writes for Wired, recalls how Petraeus basically re-interpreted the goals and aims of the Iraq occupation in the vacuum Bush left with his hands off approach. 'Trust the generals in the field' was his refrain and Petraeus obliged.

"The general spent a lot of time spinning the war without winning it," Ackerman says, "and as a soldier who blurred the line between executing strategy and creating it, his legacy on civilian-military relations will be debated well into the future."

Generals will always find a 'way forward' on the battlefield, but the scope and course of our military offensives should be the determination of our civilian leadership - which carries their mandate directly from the American people - the folks who our forces will be tasked with laying down their lives to defend or fight against; not determined by the military.

Bush had a line about Iraq that he liked to pull out when he was challenged by Congress to account for the American lives he was sacrificing for the Iraqi government. "I think it is wrong for Congress to restrict our military commanders," Bush said way back then. "I can understand having a difference of opinion about Iraq, but our commanders need the flexibility necessary to meet the mission. We should not be substituting political judgment for the judgment of those in our military," he says.

That amazing abdication of responsibility for the direction and scope of our military involvement in Iraq was also an invitation for his handpicked generals to create their own rationale for remaining in Iraq and 'moving forward', instead of adhering to some clear direction from those charged with carrying out the will of the American people. It is not the right of 'generals in the field' to make the determination about whether our nation's defenders should continue to fight and die as mere mercenaries of some foreign government. That right to commit forces is still the job of Congress, despite the Executive's own responsibility for managing them in their deployment. Yet, Bush conjured his own convenient ploy to hide behind the military as they found a 'way forward' in Iraq, and Petraeus proceeded to dig our troops even deeper into the muck surrounding Iraq's civil war.

At one point in the conflict, top U.S. commander in Iraq, Petraeus, told FOX news that he wasn't ready to pull the American prop out from under the beleaguered Iraqi regime, despite the utter lack of progress Iraqi had made in achieving the political stability which had become the administration's main justification for escalating our presence and increasing their assaults on the communities actively resisting the Iraqi regime's presumptive rule.

Offering his opinion that the occupation could still produce a 'stable, democratic government' in Iraq, Petraeus told FOX that, "We are ahead of where we thought, I thought, we would be at this point in time, and then we are behind where we might have been in some other areas."

But he also offered his view that, " . . . it's up to the policymakers and to the legislators to determine the course ahead." Petraeus's assessment, offered months ahead of the September intelligence review of the 'progress' of the occupation he's promised, was typical of a military commander tasked with finding a way to endure on the battlefield. Generals will always find a way forward, but it's just not their job to decide whether or not to continue on.

The job of deciding where and when our forces are deployed is clearly the responsibility of our legislators, and our civilian branches of government is charged with carrying out that legislative will. Aside from Gen. Petraeus' contention that the occupation could still produce a 'stable, democratic government,' there was still the open question of whether or not the U.S. should be engaged in battling for the present one against Iraqis resisting the U.S. enabled regime.

It was the (leaked) conclusion, at the time, of Bush's own civilian intelligence agencies that our occupation not only created and encouraged those elements of armed resistance who had allied themselves with Bush's nemesis, al-Qaeda, but the occupation was actually 'fueling jihad' as more and more Iraqis and others are drawn to fight our forces 'there' as Bush challenged when he called for them to 'bring it on.'

The resistance had increased, as predicted by the intelligence officials, in response to our own increase of force. Still, Gen. Petraeus insisted that our very forces which are aggravating Iraqis to violent expressions of liberty and self-determination could be, nonetheless, effective in eliminating that provoked 'threat' if we just doubled-down our force presence and dug in for the long haul.

Generals will always find a 'way forward' on the battlefield, but it should be the determination of our civilian leadership - which carries their mandate directly from the American people - just who our forces will be tasked with laying down their lives to defend or fight against; not the military.

The military commanders should not be allowed to substitute those judgments of our legislators and our civilian leadership, mostly representative of the opinion of the American people that the occupations are counterproductive to many of the stated aims, with their own biased determination to continue anyway.

The policy of consultation with the commanders in the field, that our new CIA director is enthusiastically planning to enhance by putting their compromised views at the head of the civilian agency's intelligence analysis, is antithetical to the tenets of our democracy. The conquering general wants to carve out a corner for his military cohorts in the heart of our civilian center of leadership and consultation. He'd like to generate something other than the reasoned assessment from his civilian peers at the CIA when evaluating his pet military offensives. Experience has taught the general that few outside his cabal of military officers sees the value in his brand of self-perpetuating, unending conflict. He's hedging against the almost certain evaluation from those who are now his subordinates that the political reconciliation and reform promised to spring from his "pollyandish misadventure" in Afghanistan is doomed to failure. He's hoping that the optimism of his buddies in the military leadership will trump the reasoned assessment of the civilian intelligence agency he intends to lead.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. Georges Clemenceau once said that war was too serious a matter to be entrusted to military men.
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 08:35 AM by slackmaster
When he said that, he may have been right at the time.

But today, war is too serious a matter to be left to politicians.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. waging it, probably
. . . but determining and deciding the scope, duration, and goals should be the province of our civilian leadership which is accountable to the people.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Yes, the people.
The politicians today are not responsive to the people.

I blame this on the people, for continuing to elect the wrong politicians.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Great - according to these guys we actually won the Vietnam War - let's go back and claim our prize!
There's a good reason why military metrics aren't included in the final CIA reports - winning most of the battles isn't the same as being able to politically control the outcome. Take Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, for instance.

Cheez-ytz, this appointment was a bad idea.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. If Bush was still in charge
. . . this appointment would be represented as what it is -- a way for Petraeus to control the most damning assessments of the military offensives that existed (and persisted) alongside all of the blather from the 'commanders on the ground' about 'success', 'progress', and 'victory'. In his view, control the message, control the politics -- politics being something that Petraeus is compelled to manipulate so that his dubious military enterprises broach no dissent that would dismantle them.

Keeping him in the military leadership was the first bad decision. This appointment is just an insult to anyone with any objection to the unbridled militarism over the last decade.
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Petraeus
Will be the Republican savior and rescue the Party form the current crop of certain losers.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. in
his wet dreams
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Cid_B Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. 8 years....
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
6. Fascism. n/t
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Petraeus for Prez in 2016
I mean, he's a lock. Look at all that shiny stuff on his chest, that boyish grin... and the office of top spook has provided us with at least one president already.

The military has learned a lot since Vietnam. The thing I was most impressed about in the first Iraqi war was not the speed and devastation of Schwartzkopf's blitzkrieg, but the way he and his talking heads played the media like a musical instrument. I won't say he had them eating out of his hand (because that would be mixing metaphors), but they certainly seemed to me to be manipulated with amazing ease. When it comes to PR, the military seem to have advanced light years from the bad old days.

And if the external PR is so good, what about the internal? Or perhaps I should say "intramural." One thing I have suspected about Mr Obama's presidency is that the military leadership has given him cause to reassess many of the ideas he had coming into the office. Or perhaps access to classified information that was unavailable to him when he was a mere Senator has served to create reassessment. The seductive lure of being able to "win" a war or two if he justs gives a little more, combined with the threat of anathema if he should deliver a "stab in the back" and give up just when victory is within reach... are blandishments which would have to be taken seriously, especially in a case (or cases) where "victory" is a matter of definition and not achievement. But who can say? I don't sleep with the man.

We have unfortunately seen the results of too-optimistic (or wish-fulfilling) intelligence work in the past, most strikingly in East Asia in the late 40's and the 50's. There, the dedicated experts who dared to contradict the official rosy view of the situation were purged and their careers shattered, and their assessments consigned to the wastebasket. The unfortunate historical fact that everything they predicted came to pass was likewise consigned to the wastebasket, and ultimately we spent over ten years and destroyed uncounted lives trying to make a lot of people who weren't interested in our input do what we wanted them to do. It makes one wonder, I submit, if the work done by intelligence professionals is ever really assessed impartially by the Executive, or if he only looks for those estimates which coincide with what he already wants to do.

-- Mal
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. who didn't see this coming?
Edited on Sat Oct-15-11 12:47 PM by bigtree
Barack Obama had zero military experience and his foreign policy creds were a short collaboration with republican Sen. Lugar and his childhood travels and residence.

Frankly, the thought that President Obama is actually in tune with his Bush holdovers is only a little bit worse than the reality of the carte blanche he's given them to prosecute his escalated misadventure in Afghanistan and elsewhere. On the other hand, complicity with the surviving members of the Bush band is the only characterization that prevents him from appearing to be a complete fool for believing ANYTHING they presented to him.
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. One Question I've Wondered About
And I'm sure I'm not the first one who has wondered about it: does Mr Obama perhaps have a touch of the academician's inflated respect for "experts," especially "experts" in fields where he himself has little or no experience? His activities in economics and military affairs could be interpreted as indicators that this is the case. Of course, the counter-argument would be that naturally he listens to the experts, that's what he pays them for.

His lack of experience in military affairs may not, however, be any premonition that he would buy into the "We can win the war in " propaganda. After all, presumably the good general Petraeus and most of the rest of the high command are experts, and they apparently think we can "win."


-- Mal
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. that's what I'm getting at
I know he's no idiot, but he's human. I don't believe the President has any intention of spending his time second-guessing himself. So, his most likely attitude would be a decisive acquiescence to his 'experts', as you suggest. No quibbling with them, just the dividing of their loaves once in a while to make it appear he has his hands in the batter.
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. K&R
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GoneOffShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
13. As in "Trust the colonels"? No wonder Greece is in bad shape.
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
16. A Different Speculation
The news out of Iraq and Uganda, as well as some other current events, has me pondering another analysis of Mr Obama's Wars.

In 1968, Mr Nixon ran on a platform in which, among other claims, he promised to end the war in Vietnam. Of course, he did not do so, or at least not immediately: first he attempted an escalation to "win" the war and invaded Cambodia and Laos, as the generals had been urging since... 1964? Or even 1954? Now, the question here is, was Mr Nixon being deliberately mendacious, or did he in fact intend to end the war, but was seduced by his generals (or by access to new information) into thinking that he could not just "end" it, but "win" it? This is not a frivolous question: Mr Nixon brought us the era of detente, and peace in Vietnam was probably a prerequisite for detente.

Given the increase in drone attacks, the "no boots on the ground" attacks in Libya, and the pullout in Iraq, might it be conceivable that Mr Obama has developed his own theories on how best to achieve political ends by other means, and is turning away from "conventional," big-war strategies and exploring ways to make war on the cheap? The present deployment to Uganda is involved in this question, as well: is the sending of advisers the first indication of War as Usual, or does Mr Obama think he can accomplish his goals there without escalation? Stipulating that he, like Mr Nixon, was sidetracked from his original intentions by the bedazzlement of the military options open to him (and his own lack of expertise), can we take current events as a possible indication that he is beginning to rely on his own judgement more than that of his advisers?

The fly in the ointment of this speculation is, however, the fact that Mr Panetta testified just recently that there is no intention of reducing the military budget beyond the cuts already planned for. This would seem to be an indication that business is going to proceed as usual.

-- Mal
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I wouldn't read the President's decision to send troops to Uganda in all of that
His position on U.S. aid and assistance to war-torn regions of Africa has roots in his sub-committee chairmanship with Sen. Lugar. His focus has been mostly diplomatic, but he has asserted in 2009 as President that he's willing to 'assist' the sub-Saharan region in routing 'terrorists' and in other defense needs. But he's also gone to great lengths to assert and affirm the absolute need for an Africa which is in control of its own resources and responsible for its own future, both economic and political. Furthermore, despite the lobbying of former Bushies who took on lobbying for the Ugandan government, President Obama has been continually wary of the latest ruler of the autonomy (dictatorship) there, refusing to meet and greet earlier in his term when approached and asked.

The man doesn't really have any history of promoting unbridled or opportunistic militarism. I would think he's losing any faith he may developed had earlier in his term for any decisive or sustaining military solution in Afghanistan or elsewhere. So, say what you will about his misadventure in Afghanistan, but I think his interest in intervention in conflicts surrounding sub-Saharan Africa stand apart from his shepherding of the wars he inherited.
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm not thinking so much of choice of conflicts
... as I am of methodology. I'm speculating that in those conflicts which he chooses to initiate, not the ones he has inherited, Mr Obama is employing a methodology that involves the least deployment of bodies and non-traditional means of projecting force. And wondering how, if at all, the deployment into Uganda may reflect this approach.

-- Mal
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. that's a Clintonian doctrine
. . . not original to this president.

I think you could be correct in that, this un-inherited conflict gives us a window into a military enterprise mostly initiated by him in which we can begin to gauge his own doctrine.
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malthaussen Donating Member (413 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thank you, Bigtree
I am always grateful to have a reality check when I'm busy running my mouth. :)

-- Mal
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-16-11 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. And he understands that the only possible military response to this kind of war is global terrorism?
No wonder he doesn't want to reduce the military budget - he's working towards a world of permanent global terrorism, where there are always multiple wars being fought and multiple terrorist groups targeting relatively random portions of society. Sweet.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-15-11 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
20. I trust the generals, and the politicians, to milk us for every cent they can.
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken
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