Class warfare began.....

[RegieRocker]

When gas prices, food, automobiles, utilities and everything else rose while our wages did not rise enough to cover the outlandish costs. They started it now we must win for us our families and others.

[white_wolf]

1. I think the rich may soon learn that class warfare involves a lot worse than a 3% tax increase.

[dkf]

2. Well if you are going to blame things on oil that is what happens when you use up a scarce resource.

Government preparation for peak oil has been abysmal and still is.

[RegieRocker]

3. One of the things, get it right don't spin.

[dkf]

4. Good grief if you don't understand how oil affects everything else you are missing most of the

Picture.

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/17036


Abstract: Our current industrialized food system is not sustainable due to it's over dependence on non-renewable fossil fuel energy and it's degradation of the natural systems on which it depends for its existence. If action to change these aspects of the food system are not taken, convening resource depletion and degradation will cause the food system to collapse. Our food system is the result of the “green revolution” which created greatly increased crop yields by using large amounts of fossil fuel energy in the form of synthetic nitrogen fertilizers, petroleum based agrochemicals, diesel powered machinery, refrigeration, irrigation and an oil dependent distribution system. This system destroys biodiversity, contributes to global climate change and degrades soil and water quality.

The availability of decades of cheap fossil fuel energy has allowed the food system to become dependent on finite resources that are rapidly being depleted. Due to the constraints of the first and second laws of thermodynamics this system can not be maintained in its current form. Essential components of the current system such as synthetic nitrogen fertilizers which require natural gas as a feedstock and oil dependent distribution exemplify the fragile nature of the food system. A wide scale conversion to low energy, ecologically sustainable agriculture must be implemented to avoid food system collapse and future food supply shortages.

http://www.ranken-energy.com/Products%20from%20Petroleum.htm

A partial list of products made from Petroleum (144 of 6000 items)

[RegieRocker]

5. Back to reality. Product made from goods by electricity.

Shipped to retail location for $1200.00 cost (value) of shipment $150,000. Common sense should tell you shipping costs are just a fraction of the cost of a product. As far as petro based products they are not a major percentage of all products manufactured, grown or raised. You are focusing way too much on oil and not seeing the big picture. The reason for your blindness to the other areas I mentioned.

[rugger1869]

7. You are aware of course...

That petroleum in the main ingredient in the fertilizer that the farmer uses to produce his crops that are then wrapped in plastic, again made with petroleum, and taken to market by a vehicle that runs on petroleum. Oil is in everything; if not directly, indirectly.

[RegieRocker]

14. Bad Science

Once Again, Fertilizer is Not “Petroleum Based”
http://depletedcranium.com/once-again-fertilizer-is-not-petroleum-based/

The fertilizer is made from petro bad science is full of manure which is the main ingredient for my fertilizer.

[rugger1869]

17. Ok, but this article doesn't agree.

http://www.ecological-engineering.com/AgSolutiontoImportedPetrol.pdf

[RegieRocker]

18. It says it takes petroleum to produce fertilizer not that it's the

main ingredient. Ok I will agree with that. But one must know the cost comparably of the ingredients and the petroleum used in making the product and shipping. Good conversation.

[Gregorian]

10. And that should have been happening in the 70's at the latest

Absolutely the foundation. In fact, if one looks back at the 30's, the cars were very small displacement. We went the other direction. And even after the first Earth Day, which to me represents at least our awareness of the problem, we still continued going down the wrong path. In 1963 I remember seeing a home built electric car show. Japanese cars were small displacement. I predicted that not us, but they, would change to accomodate the American appetite for gross personal power.

It has been a long and difficult 40 years of watching this, for me.

Petroleum centric. People just don't know when something is special. Petroleum was very special. We blew it. 7 billion is blowing it. The planet is special.

OK, I must go do something productive. I'm ranting and raving here. :)

[malaise]

6. I think it began when Reagan fired the air traffic controllers n/t

[Hosnon]

8. Class warfare began when a human first used his or her control of wealth

to control another human with less wealth.

[Hydra]

9. Basically, as soon as we started to organize into bigger groups

It's been with us a long time...the fault was in ever thinking it went away.

[formercia]

11. Class Warfare began long before that:

English Peasants' Revolt 1381
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/anon1381.asp

Here is a description, from a chronicle of the time, of the final meeting of king Richard II and the leader of the Revolt - Wat Tyler.

Then the King caused a proclamation to be made that all the commons of the country who were still in London should come to Smithfield, to meet him there; and so they did.

And when the King and his train had arrived there they turned into the Eastern meadow in front of St. Bartholomew's, which is a house of canons: and the commons arrayed themselves on the west side in great battles. At this moment the Mayor of London, William Walworth, came up, and the King bade him go to the commons, and make their chieftain come to him. And when he was summoned by the Mayor, by the name of Wat Tighler of Maidstone, he came to the King with great confidence, mounted on a little horse, that the commons might see him. And he dismounted, holding in his hand a dagger which he had taken from another man, and when he had dismounted he half bent his knee, and then took the King by the hand, and shook his arm forcibly and roughly, saying to him, "Brother, be of good comfort and joyful, for you shall have, in the fortnight that is to come, praise from the commons even more than you have yet had, and we shall be good companions." And the King said to Walter, "Why will you not go back to your own country?" But the other answered, with a great oath, that neither he nor his fellows would depart until they had got their charter such as they wished to have it, and had certain points rehearsed and added to their charter which they wished to demand. And he said in a threatening fashion that the lords of the realm would rue it bitterly if these points were not settled to their pleasure. Then the King asked him what were the points which he wished to have revised, and he should have them freely, without contradiction, written out and sealed. Thereupon the said Walter rehearsed the points which were to be demanded; and he asked that there should be no law within the realm save the law of Winchester, and that from henceforth there should be no outlawry in any process of law, and that no lord should have lordship save civilly, and that there should be equality among all people save only the King, and that the goods of Holy Church should not remain in the hands of the religious, nor of parsons and vicars, and other churchmen; but that clergy already in possession should have a sufficient sustenance from the endowments, and the rest of the goods should be divided among the people of the parish. And he demanded that there should be only one bishop in England and only one prelate, and all the lands and tenements now held by them should be confiscated, and divided among the commons, only reserving for them a reasonable sustenance. And he demanded that there should be no more villeins in England, and no serfdom or villeinage, but that all men should be free and of one condition. To this the King gave an easy answer, and said that he should have all that he could fairly grant, reserving only for himself the regality of his crown. And then he bade him go back to his home, without making further delay.

--snip--

[RegieRocker]

16. I think the above post is more accurate however my reference

was to our day and age. Good info though thanks.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gulliver]

13. It's not class-based, and it's not warfare.

It's culture-based, and the feeling is more like "tough shit, Losers." If we make it class warfare, then they win, because that smacks of the thoroughly discredited notion of Communism.

Some of the wealthy need to stop whining and face the fact that taxes come with wealth. In other words, if you make more, you pay more. If you don't like it, that's tough shit. It's not particularly nice, but it's not war. It's just business.

Most of the wealthy would have zero problem with increased taxes, financially or emotionally. The people who have the problem with it are the non-wealthy members of the cultural class in which Republicans believe themselves to be. It's not that middle class and poor Republicans mind seeing the wealthy pay more taxes. Non-wealthy Republicans just don't want to see the money of the wealthy going to the middle class and poor outside their Republican culture.

[Rex]

15. Yes

Exactly.