I get it, do you?

[boston bean]

People who are saying they don't understand what the protests are all about, are being coy. They are enemies to the right to protest. They are trying to stifle and mock and put an end to discussion of some very important issues.

To not know what this is about one would have to be stupid or wealthy person. Sometimes the two go hand in hand.

The demand is simple, change the course we are on where 1% of this country is represented while the rest of us are disrespected and beaten down by corporations and politicians who work hand in hand to distribute our measley wealth to the already wealthy and uber rich.

I don't think these people are job creators. What is that suppose to mean anyhow. Do they have some sort of magical powers given to them by spirits in the sky? What they happen to be are job killers. They want to keep us scared and begging for less and less. Screw that shit!

It was like this once before in our history, and I am hoping that these protests will spark another New Deal for us that lasted a short 50 years and maybe we can have another 100 years of prosperity.

The way it's working now, we don't have rats ass chance in hell to be what this country once was. That's not to say years past were perfect, but by golly, it was a hell of a lot better than it is today.

[malaise]

1. Excellent post

Rec

[Denninmi]

2. Yup.

Completely agree.

[KarenS]

3. You're absolutely right!

I'm just hoping it keeps going.

[Coexist]

4. knr - no need to waste time spinning our wheels patiently explaining

it to them. Again.

[nashville_brook]

5. eggsactly

"change the course we are on where 1% of this country is represented while the rest of us are disrespected and beaten down by corporations and politicians who work hand in hand to distribute our measley wealth to the already wealthy and uber rich."

[Tennessee Gal]

6. They care nothing about creating jobs.

If tax cuts for them were incentives to create jobs, where are the jobs?

You said it very well. Change the course.

[PETRUS]

7. Yes, the feigned confusion is really transparent

And no, they are not job creators. Sometimes they need to hire people in their pursuit of profit, but they'll do as little of that as possible and pay the lowest wage they can get away with.

It's a long, uphill battle, though. Many people are scared of civil unrest and very uncomfortable with change. If you still have your house, car, job, Monday night football or whatever it is, it's normal to resent the activists and the disruption or look away.

Unions are signing on, and the sustained commitment to disciplined nonviolence is inspiring. We are on the right track.

[azul]

8. "Job Creators" is the truth inversion talking points BS.

They are in reality the job exporters and destroyers. How many millions of jobs lost and exported over the past 20 years due to company mergers and acquisitions for the purpose of profits and wealth?

[Bloke 32]

9. I tend to agree, Boston Bean

And I'm still grappling with why Americans engaged in peaceful protest are being arrested, while those who carry loaded firearms mere metres from where the president is speaking---in a country that has already lost four presidents to murder via firearm---are not.

I shall now shut my guzzle, as this is the fourth time today that I have openly pondered this very subject here.

[Exilednight]

10. From your OP

"The demand is simple, change the course we are on where 1% of this country is represented while the rest of us are disrespected and beaten down by corporations and politicians who work hand in hand to distribute our measley wealth to the already wealthy and uber rich. "

That's not a demand, it's a grievance. It's easy to make a grievance, but what exactly do you want to see done? What regulations do you want put in place? What system would you rather see? How should we implement it?

It's not that I am against your statement, I just want to know what you suggest to put in place of our current system. I'm not going to support the replacement of one system without knowing what the system is that is going to replace it. People in Russia overthrew their czar only to see him replaced with a totalitarian regime costuming around as socialism.

People who ask questions have legitimate concerns.

[boston bean]

12. Changing the course is a demand. Not a grievance. You are wrong, sorry.

What has been happening is not working and we did this once before in this country, i guess it's about damned time we have to do it again. What a sorry state we find ourselves in.

A little review of history could go a long way for some.

There was a time in this country, when one person worked had a house, a car, vacations and a pension.

All of that use to be the norm for most. Now it's becoming a pipe dream for many.

There is a nexus many are crossing. It is time for corporations to learn their place again, where the people are put first. If my hope comes true, we will see a huge struggle against politicians who are corrupted by corporate $$. That is the next step. Because that nexus hasn't been reached as of yet, does not mean the demands for a change in course are worthless or somehow vague. You are watching a repeat of history. The time has come. No movement is perfect. No start of a movement is perfect. No need to squelch it with "demands" that it be the way you would like it to be or should be.

We'll all be better for it. The grievances are real, the demand is real. There is so much fucked up it would be hard to put it into one sentence. I guess that's how the 1% like it. So much they fucked up, people can't name just one thing.

[Exilednight]

13. I have yet to see an official list of demands. People on this very board have put forward several

different demands. Some I agree with and could support, and some I disagree with and never would support. There's a 21 point memo, but again, those are grievances, not demands.

Yours is a grievance, not a demand. All you stating is that you're not happy with the status quo, but you're not putting forward any reforms to change the status quo.

[boston bean]

14. Demanding a change of course is a demand. I am for that. It is not a grievance.

It is an demand for politicians and corporations to change their ways.

If you are looking for something specific, we could have a list probably 100 pages long.

Do you think that would be helpful?

[Exilednight]

15. Change their ways to what? And yes, it would be helpful.

Edit: You really need to answer two questions.


What exactly do you want to change?

What exactly do you want to change it to?

[boston bean]

16. Represent the 99% not the 1%. That's what's wrong here. Don't you know that?

Get corporate $$ out of politics, so the people can be represented again.

Then move on to FDR's bill of rights.

[Exilednight]

18. Replace corporate money with what? Do you want private money in elections, or do

we go to straightforward government financing for all elections?

[boston bean]

20. I would like government financing for all elections.

And that's all I'm going to explain. I'm tired of trying to explain a concept to someone who just doesn't get it.

Not my problem, it's your problem.

[Exilednight]

24. That's what you would like to see, but is that kind of reform everyone is protesting for? If so,

then I can get behind that. If not, then no, I am not going to support it. But it also has to be a unified message, not a few people for it, many don't care and others who don't want it.

[boston bean]

25. You are not understanding how the beginnings of a movement form.

There is one common thread... Represent the 99%. To try and water down that demand, with every single freakin thing that is wrong because the 99% aren't represented, is not helpful.

If you agree the 99% aren't being represented, then you belong. If you think they are, then you don't.

It's up to you.

[Exilednight]

29. This is why this is doomed for failure. Take a lesson from Egypt, they kept it simple. They wanted

an end to a totalitarian regime and they wanted it replaced with free and fair elections. They succeeded. If this movement doesn't come up with something just as simple, it will fail. They stated their grievance and they put forward a straightforward demand. This movement has only done half the work.

[boston bean]

31. You do understand the struggle with powerful corporations, don't you?

It starts there, you are only seeing the beginning. These things take time. It is the politicians who will bring about solutions to the grievances and action to the demand.

In FDR's time, there were a bunch of strikes, civil unrest, don't try to eat the chicken before it's cooked.

Don't make up your mind so soon. You are just selling yourself and everyone else short.

[Exilednight]

32. I'm not the one trying to eat the chicken before it's cooked, but this protest put the horse before

the cart.

[boston bean]

33. Please read some history. nt

[Exilednight]

34. I've read plenty of history. The way successful protests work is fairly simple. State

your grievance. Once that is done, you state your demands. Once those two things are done, then you protest.

[boston bean]

35. In FDRs time the protest started out against the powerful. The 99% were being shit on.

There was civil unrest. Politicians had to come around. There was no single policy demand being made anyone.

Just a moral argument that it must change. There was just freakin much that was wrong to come up with one sentence. But the policy changes brought on by it were immense and helpful.

[Exilednight]

37. One problem, this isn't FDR's time. We live in the 21st century. If nothing else, maybe the next

round of protests will learn from the mistakes of this one.

[boston bean]

38. I guess you can't learn from one that brought about a lot of change. OK.

[Exilednight]

39. Again, two different times. We don't take up arms against our government

like we once did (Revolutionary War). Twitter, Facebook, and the internet in general did not exist in the time of FDR. Private correspondence was still delivered by the mailman and not everyone carried a phone in their pocket that doubled a video recorder and camera.

If you want 21st century reform, then you need to use 21st century techniques. If there is one thing I have learned from the failures of the Obama administration, it is that declaring and owning the narrative is the difference between failure and success.

[boston bean]

40. Oh god, you think they lived in the dark ages?

And guess what? They didn't need everything we got, cause their lives sucked, just like now.

That is the crux of it. If everything was peachy people would be playing angry birds, and not out marching.

[Exilednight]

41. I'm not saying they did. I'm just stating facts. How is falling behind in message working for

Obama? Oh, that's right, he's getting his ass kicked by the tea party.

[boston bean]

43. Exiled, this is the beginning of a movement. To place demands that demands be made

is just ludicrous, imho, especially when one has been made. Represent the 99%. We aren't going to agree so let's just leave it at that. I gotta go to bed soon. And you are tiring me out even more.

[Exilednight]

45. Alright, we can leave it at that. Just don't act surprised when all this action is for not. n/t

[U4ikLefty]

26. your concern is noted

[Exilednight]

30. And exactly who are you to not it? Either this is grassroots or it's not. Again, take a lesson

from Egypt. There wasn't a leader, they stood with one voice, with one grievance with one demand.

[U4ikLefty]

36. I see the "concern" is strong in this one Obi-Wan

unfortunately, this one stays on the couch & posts garbage from the internet.

[Ganja Ninja]

56. Unfortunately we have more than one demand.

In fact the demands are almost too numerous to list. Ending the wars and excessive military spending, tax reform, health care reform, environmental reform, economic reform, social reform to list a few and with each topic the reforms are varied and numerous and complicated.

These protests are more about the resistance to change than about the specific changes. That resistance in large part is funded by the people that profit from the current system and that system has become intolerable and unsustainable.

[JackRiddler]

49. Golly, I wonder how 30 other nations manage without private finance of elections!

Good points, and don't give it another thought: You're being handed talking points, not arguments.

[valerief]

76. They'll come. OWS wants 99%ers to unite and doesn't want to disenfranchise

anyone from the get-go. People need to be educated about how things works. The propaganda machine, the legislated thievery, the total disregard for the Constitution. This is the time for assembly and learning. The most obvious demands will organically sprout from mass awareness.

[JackRiddler]

22. Hmm, "grievances" is what they called the complaints in the Declaration of Independence.

[Exilednight]

28. No, that was a Declaration. There's a difference. They declared their independence because their

demands were not met. They demanded either representation, or an end to taxation. When neither was met, then they moved with a declaration.

And as students of history have discovered, taxation without representation was a misnomer. England offered America representation, but we refused.

[Booster]

42. If I had my way, for every job a company sends overseas they

should pay a penalty tax in the amount of whatever that employee paid in income tax. I know that's never going to happen, but when a company such as HP sends 30,000 jobs out of this country they also send that employee's taxes out of the country. We sure as Hell shouldn't be giving these companies tax breaks like we're doing; that just stupid. For every job a company brings back to the U.S., THEN they should get a big tax break. I'll bet the jobs would come back in a hurry. If I'm not mistaken, I think this is what Pres. Obama wanted to do but of course Congress wouldn't go along with that. Congress is the problem.

[Exilednight]

44. Obama is also part of the problem. His messaging is the worst I have seen for a

modern day president. If I were him, I wouldn't go around flouting that I couldn't accomplish my goals because of a group of morans that barely have one brain cell among them.

[Pacifist Patriot]

50. Am I missing something?

Or perhaps I'm reading too much into it. I was under the impression denying corporate personhood, narrowing the income gap, expecting the uber-rich to pay their fair share in taxes were all part of the Occupy Wall Street movement. These are changes that can be made in many different ways, so I'm not certain advocating specific regulations or policies is the domain of protestors. Raising awareness and thereby applying pressure to the system so policies make it to the political table is what's at stake here.

[lumberjack_jeff]

51. Articulated and demonstrated discontent is enough.

It's not our job to devise policy. It's elected officials jobs do devise policy which minimizes discontent.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

53. The founders had a patchwork of grievances and no idea of what was to come.

The Articles of Confederation were a flop and had to be replaced at the (illegal) Constitutional convention of 1787 which came up with a patchwork of compromises.

[RetroLounge]

82. Your concern is noted

and ignored.

Keyboard commando

RL

[steve2470]

11. k&r nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

17. they are too ashamed on du to say they disapprove, as they will lose liberal creds

so instead they make this shit up

[boston bean]

19. Jesus, I think you're right. How are you gonna fix it. Well, march and protest until we can't

anymore.

Put the fear of death into politicians and the corporations and banks that control our lives, that we are not going to take it anymore. How about that?

Jesus Christ, it was done once in this country, hopefully it will be done again. Social unrest is what brought about the change in our politicians and the fear of god into their masters (banks, corporations).

[MilesColtrane]

55. "Put the fear of death into politicians"

Are you really advocating threatening people's lives?

[boston bean]

65. no.

[eilen]

79. a threat to their power though

they rule with our consent.

[lib2DaBone]

21. The word is out.. it's all a scam....

like George Carlin said.... "It's a great big club.. and you ain't in it."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0



They CAN'T save this economy.. because their innate greed and ego will not let them.

We are going down folks... fasten your seat belts.

The only good news.. is once the whole thing collapses into a giant pile of steaming shit.. we can get on with life and rebuild.

[Starry Messenger]

23. k&r

Protests are part of an ongoing process. People who need to have a readymade plan to support something don't really understand this process. Or are obstructionists.

[eilen]

80. I saw this great sign:

"When are you going to stand up for yourself?"

[RKP5637]

27. K&R!!! n/t

[Fire Walk With Me]

46. If they are the job creators, WHERE ARE THE JOBS?

[Skip Intro]

47. Wow. I'm not "stupid" or "wealthy" (at present) but I think a clear message from the "occupiers"

would be the best thing they could do. They miss a golden opportunity by not putting forth a clear reason, or list of reasons, for their actions.

Insulting people who become aware of what is going on and ask "what's it all about" is certainly not productive.

[stevenleser]

75. The full charter/set of position statements is linked below

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=788053&mesg_id=788117

The basic one line slogan is:

We are the 99%rs, things have gone on too long in favor of the top wealthiest 1%.

[TBF]

48. Anyone who doesn't understand has been in a coma. It's BS. nt

[Kurovski]

52. K&r (NT)

[myrna minx]

59. Good morning my darling!

It's good to see you. :loveya:

[Kurovski]

60. Hey

Check yer PM in a min.

[LiberalEsto]

54. They are poverty creators

and we need to keep reminding the world of that fact.

[valerief]

77. And killers via economics as well as war. nt

[bvar22]

57. So simple you can fit it on a Bumper Sticker.

Main Street,
NOT Wall Street!

or

Wall Street is NOT The Economy!
Americans with good JOBS are The Economy.

Who will STAND and FIGHT for THIS American Majority?
The Wall Street Protesters WILL!!

You will know them by their WORKS,
not by their excuses.

Solidarity!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[me b zola]

58. K&R

[HighContext]

61. 'Anyone who questions us or doesn't blindly support us is the enemy'. Etc Etc

Some things never change.

'S a hell of a way to market your cause, I'll tell ya that.

'If you have any questions, you're the enemy.'
:(

From my understanding, the group was supposed to convene in NYC then discuss coming up with a list of demands.
At least, that's what I saw on Jon Stewart. lol.

Then I see Michael Moore on Democracy Now! (EDIT: actually it was Lawrence O'Donnell) saying there are a dozen different ideas and grievances 'and if you passed the mic around you'd get a dozen different ones'. Okay, well, that's all fine and good... but I thought you were protesting on Wall Street specifically to reform the practices of Wall Street? Makes sense, right? Not just for the (important!) institution of peaceful assembly. Not a big deal. A small difference, still a good goal. But doesn't it seem woefully typical of our left leaning institutions to decentralize themselves into oblivion? To just be this confusing hodge-podge of ill defined purposes that are soemtimes hard to express and rally behind?

Maybe it's just me.
It must be, right?

Organization and efficiency, being able to structure a message and use the media to disseminate that message...these are not small matters!
I can imagine that no one here gives two squirts what some noob thinks, feel free to block me 'forever'. Whatever, I'm just telling you, as a regular type person w/ strong beliefs in Progress, Liberalism and how messed up our entire country is...this seems like a wasted opportunity, if this eventually gets re-marketed by big media (who are already on the case) as a bunch of troublemakers with no purpose, 'like in London'. Even more reason to have your shit together and market the crap out of your message.

I love that you are protesting. Protest for it's own sake is great.
Marching in circles. Woo Hoo, it's fun, communal and like a party, really.
I know, I've done my fair share. Great way to meet new people and socialize.
Good music and good food, two key ingredients for a successful protest, btw.
;)

But, if you actually want to change things on Wall Street. If you actually want viewers at home to care (a dubious presumption?)
then you may want to craft an actual message containing practical, concrete steps you want done.

And
repeat
it
every
single
time
a
camera
is
in
your
face.

Something simple to rally behind.
Some goal you're aiming for.


Maybe that's exactly whats happening behind the scenes?
Maybe they're going as planned, meeting and now coming up with demands!
"Prosecute the Banks for Fraud!"...would be a good start.

That'd be awesome!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for reading this far.
:)

[defendandprotect]

62. Was surprised to hear Ed Schultz complaining about lack of specifics the other day....

Kind of humorous in a way -- when America and her government are taken over by

corporate criminals they're stealing everything -- isn't that specific enough?

Love ya, Ed -- but get real on this one!

[HighContext]

64. So a specific goal is 'prosecute the bankers that caused the recession'. Seems simple enough to me.

What are they waiting for?
Make it official and repeat if into every single camera that anyone puts in your face.

"Prosecute the Banks for Fraud!"

[defendandprotect]

71. This depression was as engineered as the first one was -- by elites/Banksters .....

and by government corruption ---

We should also keep in mind that Citizens United isn't only about corporate money --

IT'S ALSO ABOUT OUR CANDIDATES AND ELECTED OFFICIALS ACTUALLY SELLING THEMSELVES AND

OUR GOVENRMENT TO ELITES/CORPORATIONS -

We need equal emphasis on BOTH of those problems -- !!

[eilen]

81. Seriously, at least Reagan nationalized the S&Ls and

sent about 1500 crooks to prison.

[Blue Meany]

63. There are people who are not affected directly....yet...

But the wealthy have gone to far this time. They have forgotten that the middle-class provided social stability and provided a bulwark against the masses. The middle-class, whatever their sympathies, are kept from acting out too much for fear "of falling," damaging their career and dream of upward mobility. The middle-class also provide the hope for upward mobility among the poor, if they work hard and do things right.

Well, they've decided to change the rules, thinking everyone else would continue to act as they alway had. They were wrong about that.

[Fire Walk With Me]

66. Bravo! K&R!

[Fire Walk With Me]

67. I put a mere five or so persons on ignore over coy comments against #OWS and now

my DU experience is significantly improved. :hi:

[HighContext]

68. Keep crawling...eventually you'll exit your own mouth.

BTW, David Lynch is a conservative.
But, you probably will never see this from the comfort of your info-bubble.


Which is a shame, as I enjoy debating people who hold differing views than I do.

'The Filter Bubble: What the Internet Is Hiding from You'
http://www.amazon.com/Filter-Bubble-What-Internet-Hiding/dp/1594203008



"Q: What is a “Filter Bubble”?

A: We’re used to thinking of the Internet like an enormous library, with services like Google providing a universal map. But that’s no longer really the case. Sites from Google and Facebook to Yahoo News and the New York Times are now increasingly personalized – based on your web history, they filter information to show you the stuff they think you want to see. That can be very different from what everyone else sees – or from what we need to see.

Your filter bubble is this unique, personal universe of information created just for you by this array of personalizing filters. It’s invisible and it’s becoming more and more difficult to escape.

Q: I like the idea that websites might show me information relevant to my interests—it can be overwhelming how much information is available I already only watch TV shows and listen to radio programs that are known to have my same political leaning. What’s so bad about this?

A: It’s true: We’ve always selected information sources that accord with our own views. But one of the creepy things about the filter bubble is that we’re not really doing the selecting. When you turn on Fox News or MSNBC, you have a sense of what their editorial sensibility is: Fox isn’t going to show many stories that portray Obama in a good light, and MSNBC isn’t going to the ones that portray him badly. Personalized filters are a different story: You don’t know who they think you are or on what basis they’re showing you what they’re showing. And as a result, you don’t really have any sense of what’s getting edited out – or, in fact, that things are being edited out at all.

Q: How does money fit into this picture?

A. <...>"

[Fire Walk With Me]

69. "The avalanche has begun. It is too late for the pebbles to vote." -Ambassador Kosh

Okay love you bye bye!

[Zorra]

70. It is the nature of conservatives to be frightened of change.

Some of them are just afraid.

Even when it is clearly positive change, and when change is clearly and logically necessary.

So you could add conservatives to the stupid and wealthy people that are the enemies of the protest.

And then, there is this truth:

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."
John Stuart Mill

Yep. I think I get it.
;-)

[nichomachus]

72. Back in the late '60s

I used to protest the war in front of the state capitol in Albany, NY. In the early days there were anywhere from 6 to 12 of us, once a week, every week. People used to make fun of us and call us crazy.

Slowly our number grew and finally we gained traction. Two days after Kent State, there were tens of thousands protesting in front of the Capitol -- and not only in Albany but all across the nation.

[bobburgster]

73. I get it!

We all know they don't "get it" because they do not want to.

[RegieRocker]

74. Person #1, #2 or #3.

It's always one of the three. The 1%, the paid for shill (ass kisser) or the wannabe.

[WillyT]

78. K & R !!!

:kick:

[bluedigger]

83. Missed the chance to recc by 3 minutes.

Well said!:thumbsup: