Your personal experience with privilege is irrelevant to a sociological discussion.

[RadiationTherapy]

'White privilege', 'male privilege', 'Heterosexual privilege' are all terms used in a sociological context. This means the terms are being used based on studies done on a society as a whole and not on a person-to-person basis. The demographic economic facts demonstrate there is an institutional, widespread advantage for white, straight males in income, education, and political representation. This is also the case for white women relative to black women - more money, better education, and more political power. None of this means my (white straight) wife had an easier or more advantageous life than Michelle Obama.

[fascisthunter]

1. I'm a White Male and I Get It

I remember though being young and ignorant or knew to the concept of institutionalized racism... at that time this issue bothered me, but I get it now. You explained it well...

[woo me with science]

2. Good point,

and useful.

Thanks.

[RadiationTherapy]

3. Merci.

[seabeyond]

4. yes. nt

[FiveGoodMen]

5. Thank you.

Needed to be said.

[racaulk]

6. K&R!

[rbnyc]

7. People have a hard time understanding that anecdotal evidence...

...doesn't prove any points.

[hfojvt]

42. it does though

it proves it to the speaker, and also to those with similar experiences and beliefs as the speaker. The only reason it does not stand as proof is because the listener has no good way to verify if it is true, or if it is more like a novel or a biased story (as in 'my brother hit me' being the tale told while the part about 'I stole his Halloween candy' is left out of the story for rather obvious reasons)

[Chan790]

64. Some people likewise...

do not get that broad or universal anecdote prove some sociological data is meaningless or misapplied or just flat-out-wrong. To put it another way, not everything that matters can be studied and not everything that can be studied matters.

I'd add that not everything that can be "proven" actually means anything at-all. Such is the folly of "social science", "The modern brontosaurus...or how I learned to shove the scientific method onto arenas of study where it does not work."

(I'm not disputing the existence of privilege, I know as a student of economics and political theory that privilege exists. I'd disputing the supremacy of empiricism over anecdote. Many the unprovable opinion has ultimately taken the battle over what science and math can prove factually.)

[ProgressiveProfessor]

8. The entire concept of privledge is still not widely accepted as factual.

Much of the opposition to it is based on personal experiences and doubts about the motivations of researchers and their methods.

[cynatnite]

9. In all honesty, this should not have needed to be said...

Well said, nonetheless.

[Monk06]

10. The problem with these types of sociological conceptions is that they

Lump white, male, heterosexuals who are underprivileged and
poor in the same category as rich, white, privileged males.

This is the Achilles heal of orthodox feminism that drives
poor, undereducated and resentful white males into gun clubs
and the Republican Party, now known as the Tea Bag Party.

I am a fifty something, heterosexual white male, I have been
denied employment in art schools despite a background of high
academic achievement because of that fact alone.

I once asked a fellow student, a women who I studied with about
the chances of getting a teaching position at a local art school
where she was teaching. Her reply was, "We haven't got rid of all
the graybeards yet". In other words fuck off middle aged white man.

[Cerridwen]

12. Please define and describe "orthodox feminism."

I'd appreciate it as every time I talk feminism with other feminists, we can't quite agree. So, please, tell me what the "orthodoxy" of feminism is.

[Monk06]

13. The writings of Griselda Pollock will suffice. Gender Apartheid would be a good way of describing

her brand of inter gender pessimism.

[Cerridwen]

14. Wait. What?! You pick one name and that's it?

Oy. You've no concept of the depth and width of feminist thought, philosophy, and feminisms.

[Monk06]

15. Get off it she was the international expert and standard bearer for Feminism in the

1980's and 1990's historically on par with pioneers such
as Betty Friedan. I would also put Adrian Piper in the same
category of sexual pessimists who see no hope in rapprochement
between the sexes. In Piper's case the J' Accuse form of criticism
applies to race too. I have met and talked face to face with both
Pollock and Piper and their contempt for men is palpable. Show me a
form of feminism that is non exclusive and we may have a reason for
discussion.

Her argument against the notion that Van Gogh never sold a painting
is specious. Van Gogh sold his paintings to his brother and traded them
for painting supplies, so of course he was as privileged as Delacroix,
Géricault and Rodin because he was male !! Of course it's true because
he was a guy !!!

WTW here is Griselda under full sail. Her bitterness concerning men
even an abject psychotic like Van Gogh is unbelievable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbW8faVPHAI

[Cerridwen]

19. Standard bearer?

Okay, nevermind. I've derailed this thread too much.

BTW, check your calendar.

[Monk06]

22. I checked my calendar and it's Jan 14 2011. In three weeks it will be Feb 8 2011 and I'll be a

poor, 59 year old white, heterosexual male with all the privileges
that entails.

[RadiationTherapy]

31. A university educated poor white hetero, yes?

You seem to have been taught critical thinking skills.

[hfojvt]

43. the university education is so much consolation at my janitorial job

even though I clean toilets just like my black co-worker, (who left an hour early last night - again) at least I have the useless privilege of two university degrees.

But whoops, there I go again thinking that my experience and opinion is relevant, when in actual fact is that the University Professors have spoken the TRUTH from on high and I need to just memorize it and regurgitate it just like I would have to in one of their classes.

Here's a non-anecdotal fact though. There are overr 19 million white households with less than $10,000 in net worth. Do they somehow have more privilege than the 480,000 black households with more than $250,000 in net worth? (and no I am not forgetting the 7.4 million black households with less than $10,000 in net worth but it is ridiculous to put those poor whites into a 'privileged group' and put those rich blacks into an 'oppressed group'.)

[JonLP24]

60. Yes to your question

I make less than $10,000 and I have no doubt that is correct.

[bettyellen]

41. Ha everyone I know think she is on the fringe, sorry she is nowhere near up

There w Betty. Perhaps because you met her you got an inflated sense of her importance.
She's actually considered pretty marginal around these parts.

[Monk06]

51. It's been twenty years since I was face to face with the Gris. Thanks for cheering me up

I hope modern feminists have risen above the pettiness
of eighties critical theory, which was short on theory
and not at all critical of Capitalist society in any
meaningful way.

I prefer authentic critics and editorialists rather than
academics, such as Amy Goodman, Helen Thomas and Rachel Maddow.

[bettyellen]

61. the mid eighties and early nineties had a big backlash against "classic feminist" thought

and the fringey extremists were put forward to discredit us, to be ridiculed by the mainstream. Remember Camille Paglia? A lot of people thoguth she was a new kind of feminist too.
Yikse.

[Monk06]

63. Camille Paglia was a big star in one of the schools I went too. I figured she was a reactionary.

But everyone was reading Foucault and Derrida at the time
So reason and consistency were naughty words and would
get you shunned, if not ridiculed, in most conversations.

[MellowDem]

11. And so when addressing an individual on a forum...

like this one, don't presume too much about them based only on their race and gender.

[Number23]

16. Slightly off topic, but do you think that Michelle Obama has had an 'easy' life?

[closeupready]

55. Perhaps not all of it, but of what I know, yes.

Which is since she was about 24 or 25.

And I adore her, by the way.

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. A macro premise that can't be demonstrated at a micro level is suspect.

It's relevant to every person to whom the argument is being made.

[petronius]

18. Not necessarily. It's possible and common for a process or pattern to

exist across a group, represented by many members to some degree, and yet no one member is an ideal exemplar (and some members don't exhibit the process at all). The converse is the ecological fallacy, the false conclusion that a result from the aggregate is certain or likely to appear in the individual...

[snagglepuss]

20. What this particular sociological argument has accomplished is to divert

attention from "class consciousness" - a term which now sounds soooo last century. Is it simply coincidence that ever since the Left embraced the notion of privilege, the class divide in America has widened?

[lumberjack_jeff]

21. Exactly right. n/t

[Monk06]

23. The sociology of privilege, be it race or gender, serves only those bourgeois academics

who have made a career out of the false dichotomies of
black, white, male, female while cleverly avoiding the
subject of their own personal privileges and advantages
as sanctioned, well paid bourgeois intellectuals.

The politics of race and gender can earn you a nice living
if you happen to be in the right economic class and go to
the right university.

If you go to an art opening and start talking about class
consciousness the younger generation will smirk and walk
away from you, secure in their intellectual superiority,
even though they are profoundly illiterate and philistine
in their outlook. Today's generation exhausts their knowledge
and comprehension of the world at the level of fashion.

The Lady Ga Ga generation, unread, unschooled and narcissistic.

[RadiationTherapy]

33. There is class privilege as well. Sorry I didn't mention it specifically in my OP.

It is hard for me to understand that you were a teenager during the civil rights movements and deny the existence of white, and male privileges simply because you are so angry about class dynamics. I am a major class warrior myself, but can simultaneously experience the reality that white, male, hetero privilege exists. What's the big deal?

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kwassa]

24. Yes and no.

There are advantages that accrue to membership in a certain sociological group. There may be greater extenuating factors that cause difficulties in life, yet those advantages are still not lost to those in a privileged group that have these difficulties. If Michelle Obama and your straight white wife had identical external difficulties, your wife would still be at an advantage.

[Rage for Order]

26. Oh, dear god

"My arbitrarily defined group is more oppressed than your arbitrarily defined group!"

:nopity:

[truedelphi]

27. Very interesting discussion.

As someone who was extremely tall, and teased a lot, I have often wondered why I couldn't have been one of my gay and grounded friends, whose entire HS experience was one of being admired and happy.

I think in the end, there are many ins and out all through life. Some of them are just about luck - like, where would Ringo Starr have been if he hadn't been able to befriend the Beatles.

In life, "sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you." Right now, though, I live in an area where there are many "poor whites" - and these people, like the people of Applalachia, have not gotten too many breaks at all. Ever.

[boppers]

28. Talk to "The Bell Curve".

Didn't we have this conversation 10-15 years ago?

1. Anecdotal data is bad, because the sample size is too small.
2. Aggregate data is bad, because the sample size is too big.

The fundamental flow in the OP is held within the phrase: "society as a whole".

There is no such thing.

Societies are aggregates of many groups, communities, and tribes. If you try to extract data points with a bias, all you have to do is size your target collection to meet the data you want.

For example, in modern society, "white, straight males" fare poorly in Rhodesia. China, too. White women have a clear advantage in Boston, but not so in Atlanta. Asians do better on the US coasts, but not so much in India.

If anything, read this book:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mismeasure_of_Man

In short: White males are better when measured by white male standards. Black females are better when measured by black female standards. The measurement systems are a source of bias.

[Le Taz Hot]

29. Unreccing

for denouncing racism/sexism with racism/sexism. We need things to bring us together, not things that tear us apart. Don't worry, there will be enough persons with adequate self-loathing to counter my unrec.

[superduperfarleft]

37. White people complaining that a discussion about race is "tearing us apart.."

my face when

:rofl:

[hfojvt]

47. well it is not so much a discussion about race

but a discussion that begins with
1. white people have privileges
2. white people who don't think they have privileges need to shut the fuck up because they really have privileges

yeah, there's nothing divisive about that.

[superduperfarleft]

48. " 2. white people who don't think they have privileges need to shut the fuck up because they really

have privileges"

Funny, I saw that nowhere in the OP. Maybe it's just a vast left-wing academic conspiracy.

[hfojvt]

50. read the first line

"Your personal experience with privilege is irrelevant ..."

That says, in effect, "even if you choose not to shut the fuck up, we are not gonna listen."

Academic conspiracies? Well, I do have first-hand experience of the fact that if you challenge a dominant theory, you are less likely to get published.

Then again, my paper was a series of logical arguments rather than a numerical study. However, I was tempted to write a paper called "kiss noise" where I was going to document how everybody who was published in said journal seemed to be kissing the ass of the editor by quoting his book.

[MellowDem]

53. The only people "tearing us apart"...

are those whose arguments are composed of pointing out the skin color of the other person and making that your argument alone.

[Taitertots]

30. Also known as the non-existence of privilege isn't evidence for the non-existence of privilege

A tiny fraction of Whites have higher incomes, while the vast majority are near the mean.
A tiny fraction of Men have higher incomes than women, while the vast majority are near the mean.
A tiny fraction of straight people have advantages, while the vast majority are near the mean.

Don't let the fact that those do no exist for the vast majority of people stop you from claiming they exist. After all, Bill Gates, a thousand poor straight white men, and I have an average net worth in the millions.

[RadiationTherapy]

32. Privilege is not only about income, it includes education and political representation.

I have never made more than $30k in a year of my life, but I am educated and, as far as race and gender, represented politically.

[hfojvt]

44. so I should feel represented because my Governor and Senator are white males?

Never mind that I voted for the white female for Senator and for the white female for Lt. Governor. I might also note that in the Congressional race, and two local state house races, the general election was female vs. female so there was no chance that a male would win. The males, myself included, got beaten in the primary, probably because of the female voters.

[bettyellen]

62. no because over two hundres yeas of rule by white men, you earn more than

you would if you were a woman, and have lots of other perks. I have seen thm enumerated for you here many times, have you forgotten? or are you just pretending to be obtuse?

[baldguy]

35. Just because an advantage is small, doesn't mean it's not significant.

Because the advantage is always there.

[Taitertots]

36. It is not a small advantage for everyone, it is a huge advantage taken by a tiny rich cabal

Standing next to the African American are just as many poor White people who helped the rich guy up there. We get the white privilege of being the same race as a tiny cabal of rich people.

[baldguy]

39. Yep. The average middle-class white guy

has more in common with a poor black woman than he has with any rich person.

Of course, the entire media, culture, economy & govt work tirelessly to ensure nobody believes that.

[Taitertots]

40. If they knew it then they would work together

Instead of blaming each other for systemic problems. That is why media, culture, and government fight to undermine this.

[hfojvt]

45. the entire media work tirelessly

what was your cartoon supposed to do except drive a wedge between the average white guy and the average black guy? That seems to be your work, not that of some far away "media."

[kwassa]

54. What utter bullshit.

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html

Daily effects of white privilege

I decided to try to work on myself at least by identifying some of the daily effects of white privilege in my life. I have chosen those conditions that I think in my case attach somewhat more to skin-color privilege than to class, religion, ethnic status, or geographic location, though of course all these other factors are intricately intertwined. As far as I can tell, my African American coworkers, friends, and acquaintances with whom I come into daily or frequent contact in this particular time, place and time of work cannot count on most of these conditions.

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.

[Brilliantrocket]

58. Imagine the following

If you were to take a white man and put him into a society with the majority being Asians, which of those wouldn't apply?

The food and anything relating to seeing people of your own race is total bs. 99% of that list came out of the rear end of a bull. You can't arrange to be with your own people? WELL MAYBE YOU'RE LIVING IN THE WRONG PLACE. Not every issue can be blamed on someone else. If I was living in China and complained that I couldn't be with my own people, that wouldn't make any sense. The majority here happens to be white. That doesn't mean that all whites are racist. The whole idea of white privilege is based on the fact that a small percentage of whites are indeed racist. Shouldn't just call it "white privilege" because some white people are racist. Privilege in what sense? Getting a job from a racist I suppose.

[Taitertots]

59. The only Bullshit is from whoever wrote that

The vast majority of those are inevitable because African Americans are a minority and they have nothing to do with alleged privilege. Most of them apply just as much to White people. The rest are completely made up.

[Starry Messenger]

34. Talking about privilege on DU usually leads to large helpings of fail.

I salute you for trying though.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. You're wasting your breath here

Any discussion of sociological facts is immediately "disputed" by individual "evidence." It's a mix of ignorance and ideology that no explanation of basic principles of sociological research will overcome. People mistake clear sociological evidence for what they rather pathetically call "broad brush attacks," as if we haven't developed sound methods for understanding and making statements about populations. It's just a lack of education, mostly.

[hfojvt]

46. well anecdotally

I, myself, have more education than I need. So I am not sure you can trump me with your degrees. My MA is in the social sciences.

[Taitertots]

49. Rather than convince people you are right, you have jumped right to being condescending

Obviously you don't understand how to make statements about population if you can't understand how a tiny cabal of rich people would pervert these numbers. White privilege is an illusion created by a cabal of rich people who give nothing to white people in general.

Calling it "sociological fact" doesn't turn garbage statistics into white privilege.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. I think there's a valid distinction that should be made between the three types

Race and sex orientation are definitely privilege factors.

"Male privilege" is a method to distract people from issues of class.

[Forkboy]

56. I haven't had enough run ins with privilege to know this.

:)

[ismnotwasm]

57. Thank you n/t

[Rex]

65. So the statistics that apply to certain groups, doesn't apply to said

individuals in those groups, realistically? Based on your direct observance of a few things? You might be right a tiny bit, but mostly you are wrong.