What do you think of creating a progressive state in the United States?

[mmonk]

Could this be a way around a rightwing government? We could create a modern state state with a progressive income tax system that pays its bills, supports a public education system, a superior infrastucture, and health care access for it residents.

[BzaDem]

1. Part of the problem with doing things at the state level is that the top 1% can easily move to

another state.

[Cleita]

4. And this is bad why?

Let them go. They take everything and contribute nothing. It gives the opportunity for others to step up and to fill the void hopefully in a more egalitarian way that benefits everyone, not just a few.

[Capitalocracy]

6. Agree 100%.

Let them go. Why would we need them? As long as we can pass living wage legislation, maybe legalize the weed and bring in tourism and not spend all our money on prisons, we can create our own economy. All the top 1% do is squeeze the economy anyway, not help it grow.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. If you have a progressive tax system... and all the rich people leave...

who are going to "progressively tax"?

[Cleita]

9. Other people will become rich when they leave and fill the void and

not all the rich can leave. They will grumble but they know their fortunes are still tied up in where they live much of the time. They will have to realize that they too must be part of the solution, not the problem. I find this is a big urban legend perpetrated by the rich.

[Imajika]

24. All too often though, that is not what happens....

As long as our 50 states are effectively competing with one another, it is hard to prevent the upper and business classes from simply taking their money and going elsewhere. Hell, they can still sell stuff in your progressive state, they just don't base their operations there thus depriving your state of the tax revenue. States are constantly trying to poach other states businesses to their own states by promising lower taxes and special incentives.

Illinois just the other day significantly raised state tax rates, and the result has been that Wisconsin, Indiana and others will make every effort to lure Illinois businesses away - and all too often be successful at it.

One of the things those who support a far more progressive tax system must do is work around this environment of state competition. One way would to have the Federal government level additional taxes that they turn around and block grant back to the states that they received the additional taxes from. Perhaps some kind of special upper income surcharge. This would mean the new tax effects ALL the states (and everyone in them) equally thus preventing business and the wealthy from trying to skate out of paying their fair share.

Creating a more progressive tax structure on the local and state level is one of the issues I focus most on, and it is hard for me to see it really getting done if we don't figure out ways to work around this problem of many states constant efforts at luring the business and upper classes away using special tax breaks and incentives.

[Cleita]

30. Well, being blackmailed by the top 1% doesn't work

either. Seems to me that those businesses who want to sell to us, should be able to accept laws that give them the privilege to sell in your state if they are out of state. Tariffs and out-of-state business licenses or even expecting them to incorporate in your state so that any income they make in your state is subject to corporate tax are a few of the things that come to mind to me. I mean if you can make the legislature cooperate here, it shouldn't be a huge problem. I can see a lot of sources of income that aren't tapped into because of the fear that they might go away. Remember they are just as dependent on doing business in your state as you need them. And if they aren't, good riddance.

[BzaDem]

51. It actually works very well unfortunately.

Rich people move into low tax states all the time, depriving high tax states from their tax revenue.

[mmonk]

34. Note I said income tax. As a business person, that means just

distributing the profits to stockholders. You can still have property tax incentives.

[TBF]

69. Doesn't work that way. Mainly because the gap between rich

and poor is so huge in this country. The billionaires will go where they are taxed the least, which is why it has to be done on a federal level. If they wish to leave the US and live somewhere else fine, then they loose our military protection (and often face much larger tax burdens in other modern countries). We need to stand up to bullies - trying to "outsmart" them is not going to work, they are not that stupid.

[Volaris]

68. I think I would move there, at some point in my life...

trying to UNdo a lot of the non-progressive nonsense that has been instituted by the Federal Congress over the last few decades as an individual state means making one HELL of an impassioned argument for States Rights, something that can end up cutting both ways your not careful.
But yeah I will move there and help=)
Which State do you want to try and take over lol?

[BzaDem]

52. Because states need money to fund progressive priorities. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

39. Eminent domain laws. Enact laws that if owners move........

to another state, their physical property ESPECIALLY AS IT RELATES TO WORKFORCE CONCERNS is taken over by the state. Then the state could KEEP factories open for a while as workers co-ops.

[cigsandcoffee]

45. I can't decide if you're advocating extortion, theft, or both. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

47. Call it what you will.............

Buy it from them at a market rate then. Just make SURE it's sold to the state to keep the jobs in state. As long as it's run as a worker's co-op. Anyway isn't that what eminent domain is all about? Buying some things for the general welfare?

Edited to add a thought.

[Cid_B]

56. Let me guess...

The govt would get to decide what the market rate was...

[socialist_n_TN]

60. Isn't that always the way with eminent domain?

:)

[Taverner]

2. It's called Calfiornia

We're trying to chase all of the fuckturds out - so far we chased OC to Colorado Springs

Next, the Central Valley!

[Cleita]

3. Exactly. I have great hopes that our state will

turn around all the destructive things Republicans in power have done and maybe show the other 49 states how to do it. We still have the economy to pull it off.

[cali]

19. California is a mess. And it's too big.

[Cleita]

31. Just keep that positive attitude there. n/t

[bluestate10]

46. California is not a mess.

The state gives 57% of it's tax money to red states, with the exception of Maine. California need demand some of it's tax money back.

[Donnachaidh]

61. California needs to start asking all those millionaires to pay their fair share of taxes

All those puke Governors kept cutting taxes to keep their billionaire buddies happy. And now the middle class is taking it in the neck, so Bill Gates can buy expensive toys.

[bobbolink]

44. And we Coloradans thank you.

Errr, no, we don't.

But point taken.

What would it take to get enough progressive people to move to California to make enough difference in making that plan work?

[Le Taz Hot]

67. Hey!!!!!!!!

I may be mildly repugnant from time to time but I most certainly am NOT a fucktard! Do ya mind????

[Taverner]

73. Aw man, come back to CA

I just refer to the number of white people, angry at their new Mexican neighbors in the OC - who then high-tailed it up to Colorado Springs. Focus on the Family is based there, and used to be in the OC.

[rurallib]

5. how about we have the northern tier of states secede and join Canada?

+ California,Oregon and Washington (northern tier includes northeast such as NY, Penn etc.)

[LoZoccolo]

11. Keep in touch and let us know how it goes. n/t

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Count me in…er, out, er…whatever, eh?

[Donnachaidh]

64. doubtful that Canada wants any of us.

Would YOU allow your clinically insane cousins to move in? Canadians are polite, but not stupid.

[Vickers]

8. I think it's boneheaded. n/t

[LoZoccolo]

10. I think it would never happen because it would require work and thus getting off the Internet. n/t

[patrice]

16. Some people are looking for a reason to get off of the internet. This is the happenin' thing, when

something else happens, that'll be the the happenin' thing.

[cali]

20. it's happened. It's Vermont.

[Donnachaidh]

62. agree 100 per cent

And for the folks who don't agree -- I must point out that the ONLY real pushback on giving millionaires more tax cuts came from the Vermont delegation. Bernie led the charge, but the other reps were in it hip deep too.

What's the old saying about As Vermont goes, or something like that?

Vermont SHAMED our leaders in Washington. Big Time.

[cali]

65. if it were only bernie, I wouldn't make the claim that vermont is a progressive state

but it's so much more: Peter Welch, Patrick Leahy, Governor Shumlin, Shap Smith, Speaker of the Vermont House, a Progressive Party that holds seats in the statehouse, and 30 years of progressive legislation with positive outcomes.

[mmonk]

40. Is that why you are here on the internet?

[Orangepeel]

12. Like Vermont or Maryland?

:shrug:

[patrice]

14. I nominate Oregon. nt

[LuvNewcastle]

15. Vermont seems progressive.

I guess people would need more space, though. I wish more cities and states would cooperate with each other. All our politicians want to do is protect their little fiefdoms so that they will retain their power. If people are so afraid of the federal government getting too big, maybe we should concentrate on getting states within a certain region to work together.

[bluestate10]

49. I agree.

I would relish my state working with other northeastern states to develop health care cooperatives. The economic power of the northeast is massive, if states here go as one on issues like health care and education such choices will just make us stronger.

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

17. I think they can always establish LLCs in Utah...

...thus circumventing the state's taxes, which they probably already do, anyway.

[cali]

18. Vermont is a substantial way there

Our new gov ran on single payer. The state house has lots of progressives, there's a viable progressive party here and the dem party here really is pretty progressive. Oh, and we support our public schools.

[mmonk]

42. I'm watching Vermont.

I might join you some day.

[End Of The Road]

21. Where you gonna put it, AND, more importantly,

what are you going to do with all the conservatives who are living their now?

[cali]

26. we tolerate our conservatives. granted we don't have many of them

and there are virtually none in positions of power.

[onenote]

22. creating it how?

By having enough progressives move to a particular state?

[mmonk]

43. Or have enough ciizens that are the majority.

[ClayZ]

23. Cascadia

http://zapatopi.net/cascadia/

[mmonk]

48. I could go for that. My cousin lives in Washington state and is a liberal.

:thumbsup:

[Dappleganger]

25. Personally, I think that all the progressive big cities should secede.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

78. The would starve in the dark, drowning in their own garbage...

The cites need the rural areas to survive.

[doc03]

27. Is there a progressive state that isn't a financial mess?

[mmonk]

74. Is there any state not in the red?

[Davis_X_Machina]

28. Libertarians have been trying to do this to New Hampshire for a decade.

Good luck to ya.

[cali]

66. Libertarians are not interchangeable with Progressives

[Davis_X_Machina]

71. Why would progressives have any more success?

[EC]

29. Did the Civil War change anything?

The North went progressive, built a railroad, could move supplies and food. The economy kept thrieving. The South strangled commerce, thought they'd do fine without the railroad, their ecomomy sucked.

We'd be in the same place we were then...and I'm sure they would start a war just to rob us since they don't know how to survive any other way.

[Brilliantrocket]

32. They already tried that- it's called California

Ok, I'm just kidding ,but seriously , do you really think the corporations would let this happen?

[cali]

33. what do you think vermont is?

[IDemo]

35. I like the idea of the creation of a state of progressiveness in the US

Just not the division of states or geographic regions.

[Motown_Johnny]

36. flood some low population states with liberals to win elections there

That could tip the balance in our favor but it would take hundreds of thousands of people willing to relocate

[onenote]

72. presumably a lot of independently wealthy progressives

what are all these progressives going to do to support themselves and their families? Even the least populated state, Montana, has over 1/2 million in population.

[Blue-Jay]

37. Let me know how that works out for ya.

[socialist_n_TN]

38. Maybe it could work as a loose confederation.............

of states WITHIN the USA? If ALL of the more progressive states' governors got together and put together a platform of economically progressive policies and tried to enact them in each individual state, maybe that could work.

[bluestate10]

53. I favor northeastern states, Michigan and Illinois joining the pacific coast

states to form a confederation to get policies that we value, like affordable health care for everyone, the environment and renewable energy, advanced technology development and playing field business regulation.

[socialist_n_TN]

54. Yeah that would be the logical grouping.........

I REALLY think that if it was based on sound PROGRESSIVE economic principles, it would eventually work well too.

[begin_within]

41. Just take the part of California west of Interstate 5, and there you have it.

[Cerridwen]

50. Until you jettison the myth of the "American Dream" and its

attendant "values," you'll have the same crap we have now in a matter of years.

[-..__...]

55. Can I bring my guns?

Seriously.

[table1]

57. what about just moving to canada ?

[mmonk]

77. Why should we be forced to move?

[Liberal Veteran]

58. The biggest problem would be that the standard of living would be good.

....which would attract right wingers to our state for it's standard of living and who would immediately start fucking shit up because they are too damned selfish to care about anyone else enough to pay one fucking cent to the common good.

[unkachuck]

59. where do I sign?....n/t

[RSillsbee]

63. Google free state project

the wingers beat you to it

[social_critic]

70. USA has a progressive tax system

The income tax system is progressive. The key is to make it simpler to avoid loopholes.

[mmonk]

75. They have been flattening out the tax rate.

Look at it today and look at it as it has been.

[workinclasszero]

76. Make Texas home of the insane teabaggers and let them break away

and watch all the loons will migrate there leaving the rest of the states progressive.

Then the US government can take back all its military gear and we can watch Mexico invade and destroy the freeper/teabaggers once and for all!:popcorn:

Viva la Revolucion!!!! :toast:

[madokie]

79. That would be great if possible

not going to happen though