Obama set to win big victory

[ThomWV]

President Obama wins his first great fight today. He has fought hard for continuation of the Bush Tax Cuts and he deserves credit for it passing and all that comes with it.

I am no longer a Democrat.

Goodbye.

[SidDithers]

1. buh bye...nt

Sid

[Connie_Corleone]

2. Good bye.

[lamp_shade]

3. Bye. Kick and rec.

[TexasObserver]

4. So long. Farewell. Auf Wiedersehen. Goodbye.

I'm not happy with the president, but the president is NOT the Democratic party. It was here before anyone knew who he is and it will be here long after he's a sad, disappointing memory.

[Eddie Haskell]

5. You're wrong ThomWV

Obama's the one who is no longer a Democrat

[Poboy]

41. true

[RichGirl]

46. Oh puleeeezzze!

Democrats who call Obama a republican are as IGNORANT as republicans who call him a socialist. Also ignorant is to think that since you'rer a democrat, then anyone who doesn't think exactly the way you do, want exactly what you want, see things the way you see them...can't be a democrat. Newsflash...democrats are like snowflakes, no two think alike. And that's the way it should be.

We need huge hedge clippers to lop off the ends of both extremes. They are getting tiresome.

[Hydra]

69. Where's the left extreme that needs lopped off? n/t

[rapturedbyrobots]

78. The question isn't whether the Democrat/Republican label is right

The question is whether it is relevant. The current political situation of a Dem president defending a Republican health care plan (yes...the plan was written by a Republican in the 90s) and Republican tax cuts shows that these labels fail to describe political reality in many cases. It matters not if Obama (or any other politician for that matter) runs with a D or R next to their name. Strip away the party affiliations and Obama (and his DLC bretheren) are NEOLIBERALS. They are guided by adherence to an economic ideology, not a political doctrine. They are motivated by the interest of business, not the duty of justice. If we continue to look no further than party affiliation, we will continue to ask ourselves and each other how/why our 'D' president seemingly supports 'R' this or that...and some will continue to attack the entire party...and some will continue to defend at all costs the pro-business, anti-labor, pro-privatization, turn the President & other party leaders are taking the party (because their political identity is bound to the party). The neoliberals are banking on it, literally.

[Cal33]

82. Someone has very aptly put it: "Today it's no longer blue vs. red,

Dem. vs. Repub. Today it's CORPORATIONS vs. YOU AND ME."

As for Obama, the Repubs. will still continue trying to destroy him.

[tomp]

84. all wrong, start to finish. nt

[ima_sinnic]

87. yes, maintaining the status quo is so "liberal" and "democratic"

A democrat who wholeheartedly supports republican policies, perpetuating them even when he didn't have to, is a REPUBLICAN.

Nobody has to "think exactly the way I do, want exactly what I want, or see things the way I see them" to know that We The People have been royally screwed and lied to.

hmmm ... you know, even rich people use highways, police departments, fire departments, bridges, and other PUBLIC utilities and facilities, and sometimes they even need assistance in national disasters. Paying taxes to support that kind of infrastructure is a good thing. Not to mention that wealthy investors in Middle Eastern oil exploration and all that imperialist stuff should be happy to chip in for the huge military expense that's making all that private wealth possible. Or should the expense be paid for by middle-class taxpayers who get no benefit whatsoever other than $3 gas (when they could have had electric for a lot cheaper) while the rich collect the profits?

[Still a Democrat]

6. What is it about this issue that struck such a nerve?

The tax cuts for the wealthy amount to about $133 billion, or 13.5% of the package. It's generally targeted to middle and lower incomes.

What is it about this issue that struck such a nerve? There have been other disappointments, and this one doesn't seem to be as monumental as the outrage.

[theophilus]

15. Could you provide a link to a reputable source on those numbers, please.

I think many are unhappy because the tax cuts for the rich was one of the major causes of our financial collapse. That financial collapse continues, as do the tax cuts. This is not the time for billions to go to electing more Reps, creating more bubbles, and sucking funds out of our national economy. We need to do so much. I seriously doubt the Reps will vote for a major infrastructure fix. Do you think they will? Will they vote to cut Medicare and Social Security "down to size"? I think so. This is just horrible economics.

[Still a Democrat]

23. No offense, but you don't seem to know the numbers - yet you're outraged

Honestly, I think this is often the case. Once they know the specifics, progressives tend to support it more.

[hfojvt]

58. uh-huh and you know the true numbers but don't supply a link

maybe this one will do http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=567208&mesg_id=567232

[truedelphi]

75. I have not heard of the numbers being as low as the poster is stating.

I think Olbermann stated that they would amount to 700 billion.

But the reason we are pissed is exactly as you explained. These Ultra Rich people, who own not only five or six homes, and fleets of cars, and still possess enough wealth that it can be passed down to several hundred years worth od descendents without being dented - these Ultra Rich also own a Senator or tow (Or more likely a few dozen!)

And so we the people who work hard all of our lives have to hear the continual "TalkingPoints:" "But it tis the Rich who actually work so hard, not like Joe Blough on welfare," etc.

And the notion that if we "give" them these tax cuts, then we will have the Ultra Rich crete jobs. But we all know that the rich didn't create jobs over the last eight years - so why would they suddenly do that now?

[Dawgs]

21. What about the estate tax and payroll tax (which is the beginning to end of SS)?

:shrug:

[Still a Democrat]

22. What about it?

The estate tax is part of the 13.5%. The payroll holiday is progressive. The general is reimbursing the SS for it.

[Dawgs]

29. "The general is reimbursing for the SS" is a fucking disaster for this country.

It's also a right wing talking point.

And if you don't think this is the beginning to the end of Social Security then you haven't been paying attention the last four years.

[Dawgs]

24. The main thing for me is the lack of fight from the Democrats and President Obama.

You can't bring a knife to a gun fight and expect to win.

You don't start out by compromising. You do what the Republicans did. You draw a line in the sand and you don't budge.

The Democrats are weak and ineffective. They have done nothing to stop the 30 years of trickle down economics; in fact, they accelerated it.

In two years our economy will be weaker because of the actions of the Democrats.

:(

[Still a Democrat]

25. We assume there was no "fight"

The breakdown shows progressive elements of the package are quite substantial. I'm afraid we're focused like a laser beam on what we don't like.

[Dawgs]

27. You seriously believe the payroll tax is a good thing, and that the GOP will let it expire?

Seriously?

What, in the past four years have shown you that Democrats won't cave on "tax cuts"?

[Still a Democrat]

31. This package shows they didn't cave

I've pointed out the breakdown. You're going by the conventional wisdom here.

The Holiday would require a new agreement to extend. And again, it doesn't cost SS a penny.

[Dawgs]

32. "...would require a new agreement to extend." You mean, like the Bush tax cuts?

And, the package shows that they gave up more than what the Republicans gave up; all while controlling Congress and the Presidency. That is called weakness.

You really need to start paying attention.

[Dawgs]

34. "it doesn't cost SS a penny"... (see the included link to see why it's the beginning of the end).

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x20287#20358

[Donnachaidh]

37. somebody's smoking some funny shit

"it doesn't cost SS a penny."

Don't be a piggie, pass that joint around...

[hfojvt]

60. remember that old story about the emperor's new clothes

In that fable, once one boy piped up, suddenly everybody else could see it. When in reality it seems like at least 60% will either believe the continued spin, or not really care enough to look closely and the M$M and their snycophants just write off the boy and others with their eyes open as a bunch of conspiracy theorists or "cluster rebels".

[Dawgs]

30. You can pretend all you want, but the payroll tax is a Republican idea.

And it's not because they are looking for the middle-class and poor.

[treestar]

56. so you're more concerned about the appearance of winning

than the economy?

[truedelphi]

76. And when a person takes the time to read the excellent reporting of Matt Taibbi in

The Rolling Stones, as he explains how the Financial "Reform" Act was watered down - the scenario is a tragic one.

Harry Reid does his best to avoid the Democats in the Senate who want to strengthen the bill. Instead he buddies up to the Republicans who want teh weakest version of the bill possible.

Tehre really is only One Paty, or Club or what have you.

And you and I aren't in it.

I do hope that someone very progressive like Grayson runs, otherwise I really don't know what I will do come November 2012.

[Poboy]

26. You aren't reading? Its been posted all over, even in weeks leading up to this

point. The bill was falsly tied to unemployment benefits. This was a catastrophic strategic blunder.
This bill is a Republican bill, garnering 68% support among REPUBLICANS.

Most importantly for most, is the poison pill SS tax holiday, which will be used as a wedge to further cuts.
Then there is the narrative/ideology cave-in. The dems are selling this plan using REPUBLICAN talking points, not limited to but including the lie that SS adds to the deficit.

So now, in total lack of embarassment of blatent hypocracy, we are going to add 800 BILLION to the defict with a package that is minimally stimulative, and then claim we need to address deficit spending.

Its Alice in Wonderland shit.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hfojvt]

57. just like the original Bush tax cuts, eh?

First, you DO know that lower incomes are getting a tax increase with the social security tax cut and that people with higher incomes are getting an even bigger tax cut.

Of course, some on DU think that those of us in households with less than $30,000 of income are supposed be overcome with pleasure whenever a household making between $70,000 and $300,000 gets a few more thousands of dollars. Because a victory for the 70th to the 95th percentile is a victory for all.

Or maybe it trickles down somehow.

Under Obama's original plan (ending the Bush tax cuts for incomes over $200,000) there was still at least $25 billion in tax cuts going to people with incomes OVER $200,000 (that is the amount they gain from all the Bush tax cuts on their first $200,000 in taxable income) AND there was/is at least another $34 billion going to people with incomes between $100,000 and $200,000. Oh, but of course, that last group, which is in the top 20% of households, is really in the MIDDLE class.

I bet if this same proposal had been made by Bush or McCain, there would be liberal think tanks screaming about the fact that only 25% is going to people below the median income while 75% is going to people above it. But having been betrayed by a Democrat, those groups are strangely silent, even in the face of fairly obvious White House lies.

[Marr]

66. You have got to be fucking kidding me.

You're selling the Bush Tax Cuts now? Are there any standards at all, or is it just, "Democratic leadership, right or wrong"?

Don't bother answering, I think it's obvious.

[xchrom]

7. It's all pretty pathetic, I must say. Nt

[Uben]

8. Maybe you can start an Independent Underground

You'd probably get several members from here. Not me, of course, because I AM a democrat and I don't base that on any one issue, but a core belief. Since when have we always gotten what we want? Hmmm, like....NEVER!

Now, I don't know if this is just drama on your part or you're serious (hard to tell these days), but you've been here long enough to know that dems come in all sorts and sizes, and this board does not cater to any one particular faction of the left, although a lot would like to think it does.

If you are willing to abandon the democratic party because of one issue, that's totally your choice. Don't know where you intend to wind up, but I haven't found any other place like this I care to associate with, so good luck on your endeavor.

There's not a thing wrong with dissent, and honestly, I encourage it when justified. Picking which hill to die on is subjective in nature, and I guess a lot of people find themselves peering over the edge of a political cliff and contemplating the leap these days. But, it would be wise to consider what lies at the bottom before taking that last step.

I'd like to see you hang around and help us work things out. You've been an asset to our community and I think we have many battles ahead to fight, so we need all the soldiers we can get.

Either way, good luck, and peace be with ya, bro.

[Dawgs]

19. Don't speak for ThomWV, but my leaving has nothing do with JUST this one issue.

And, I for one, will not abandon this place. I still support many of the things that Democrats stand for; I just can't belong to a party that acts this way.

[NorthCarolina]

9. Obama wins, the people lose. Brings health insurance reform to mind.

Stick with the Dems for now, as there may be a good chance that Obama will end up being the Republican nominee for POTUS in 2012. Might have a shot in the primaries of selecting a real progressive Democrat candidate, provided we can learn to ignore the "misinformation" spewed from the beltway media.

[KansasVoter]

10. Stay!! We need people here to counter the "Obama is perfect" crowd!

[Control-Z]

55. I haven't heard much

about Obama being perfect over this one. While I've never been a cheerleader myself, I've been patient with the Obama presidency, until now. I think this tax deal has been a brutal disappointment for pretty much everyone and appears to be the line in the sand for many. Unless somehow I can be convinced this deal is not what it is - BAD, I'm afraid it will be the line for me.

[mmonk]

11. Take a deep breath.

Then gear up to fight another day. Taking deep breaths helps cleanse the soul.

[kentuck]

12. delete.

wrong placement.

[mmonk]

13. Anyone who knows me knows I was vehemently opposed to it.

In fact, Bernie Sanders speaks for me.

[kentuck]

14. Sorry mmonk...

I have not had my coffee yet. I posted in wrong place. I meant to post to OP. :-(

[mmonk]

16. No problem.

Happens to me all the time (as the Progressive Insurance woman says).

[kentuck]

17. Thank God It Passed!

We only fought against it for ten years. Why should we be disappointed?

[Dawgs]

18. I'm with you.

I've been saying all week that if this bill passes I'm no longer a Democrat. Looks like, for the first time in my life, I will be a man without a party. The weird thing is that it actually doesn't feel that bad. Kind of liberating.

:hi:

:toast:

:pals:

:fistbump:

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renew Deal]

28. Bye

:hi:


:shrug:

[TwilightGardener]

33. Happy trails.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

35. Dude, I hear you.

Do what you have to do to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. I did that myself awhile ago.

[Scurrilous]

36. K & R

Bye!

[kentuck]

39. I can see the true democrats from the comments on this page.

ThomWV, I understand where you are coming from and I am contemplating the same. There are some things that are not worth surrendering.

[rucky]

42. You can still stick around

and be in good company.

[Terry in Austin]

43. So you're a Republican now?

It's a two-party game, US electoral politics. To the extent that you consider the game at all relevant (subject of a whole other discussion), then you're with one party or the other.

Any other position, IMO, is pretty much a waste of your time and your spirit. Third parties aren't happening, nor are independents.

[ima_sinnic]

89. is it really

a "two-party system"? really? are you SURE of that?

[RichGirl]

44. Good bye and good riddance.

I'm sick beyond words of complainers.

[closeupready]

48. Is your brother's name Richie?

:rofl:

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ima_sinnic]

90. wow, so the party does NOT need voters?

all righty, then--if the democrats are soooo strong and don't need "complainers," let's get some real LIBERAL, DEMOCRATIC legislation!

pffft

then they wonder why they lose elections -- telling the voters "good riddance" could be a reason?

[Catherina]

45. Do not go quietly into the night. Whatever you choose to be, don't abandon the fight

for a better America.

:hug:

Rec'd.

[closeupready]

47. Don't blame you for leaving the party.

I may just follow.

[Horse with no Name]

49. They are now officially the OBAMA tax cuts--given to you by the majority party

as a gift to the incoming republicans.
Sickening.

[LawnLover]

50. Nooo!!! Don't punish us like that!!!! Come back! Come back!!

:eyes:

[Bluebear]

51. There's the arrogance that has led to many people being disenchanted. nt

[LawnLover]

54. Sorry, I won't commiserate with someone who pisses and moans, then just gives up.

:nopity:

[Change has come]

73. We'll see.

if creating a smaller Democratic party is a winning strategy. Good luck selling the Obama tax cuts. :hi:

[Selatius]

80. You WILL when the race is razor thin, and you need every vote under the sun.

Have fun with that.

[Egnever]

92. You wont be needing those votes as well?

[Liberal_in_LA]

53. awww.. you'll come back in 2012

[ima_sinnic]

91. are you SURE of that?

I don't think the "strategy" of "who else are you going to vote for?" is going to work so well the next time. Just sayin' ...

[leftstreet]

59. FULL STOP. You don't have to be a Democrat to post here

You're no longer a Democrat, fine.

But don't go. Just abide by the rules.



Solidarity, not isolation

:thumbsup:

[goforit]

61. Obama is genetically related to Cheney. Should we not be surprised?

[Starbucks Anarchist]

63. Yes, all eighth cousins are exactly alike.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/oct/18/uselections2008.dickcheney

If this is the best you have, you are truly pathetic.

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

64. Goodbye, quitter!

:hi:

[polmaven]

65. See ya.

n/t

[dionysus]

67. bye. don't write.

[Kermitt Gribble]

68. Hate to see you go, ThomWV.

The replies in this thread from the "New Democrats" are sickening. They have no principles and exist solely to defend their Dear Leader. Being a Democrat, to them, has no meaning other than in name. They view themselves as members of a team, and the team can never be wrong. Those who question the team are no longer welcome. The rest of us are without a political party.

[Raine]

70. I'm still a Democrat, I just don't believe that Obama is nt

x(

[Hydra]

71. I got ejected by the party years ago

Torture not being one of my favorite things to support.

Welcome to the party outside the "party" :evilgrin:

[eridani]

72. One termer, guaranteed. He has totally fucked the economy for the next 6 years. n/t

[BigBearJohn]

74. I know exactly how you feel. But stick around. We need a few sane people here.

[Senator]

77. K&+R

[dreamnightwind]

79. Stay and fight!

It's our party, not theirs. And those of us who care need all the help we can get.

[panzerfaust]

81. Will Obama openly run as a Republican in 2012?

or just remain closeted?

[dreamnightwind]

85. Not likely a good strategy for him

He'll run as the slightly more moderate and infinitely more sane alternative, "more Republican policies, less drama" sounds like a good way for the Democratic Party to move forward. I can't believe it's come to this. Primaries, someone please step up to the plate and take the guy on from a true Democratic position!

[Life Long Dem]

83. Woo hoo!

Obama didn't raise taxes! :woohoo: 2012 here we come!

[BrklynLiberal]

86. If "Democrat" means what Obama stands for...I am with you.

I think it is Obama who has left the Democratic party...Not sure what he is anymore.
He sure does not represent the historical principles of Democrats.

I have never been more disappointed in anyone...
I feel numb with shame for having been taken in so thoroughly.

[blindpig]

88. Yep, he kicked out the jams

Let there be no question, he can fight like hell for the ruling class.