Do Headscarves bother you?

[leftyladyfrommo]

Because they don't bother me one bit. I do not feel threatened by them.

I really feel like if people want to wear them for whatever reason it's their own business. And I could care less.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. only if they clash with the outfit... n/t

[amandabeech]

117. LOL!!!

But nearly everything goes with basic black.

Yes, I know that Muslim women wear a variety of clothing, including contemporary fashions, but I couldn't resist.

[DURHAM D]

2. Really? Even if safety is a factor? nt

[pipi_k]

22. What sort of safety?

I mean, what would be more dangerous about a headscarf than, say, long hair dangling or blowing in the breeze, prone to being caught in something...

Just wondering...

:shrug:

[DURHAM D]

29. This thread is a follow on to prior article.

[pipi_k]

36. That has no meaning

to me.

I have no desire to go looking for some other prior thread/article, so it would be nice to hear in this thread what safety issues might be involved with a headscarf...

[DURHAM D]

47. I have no desire to look for it either.

Edit: Had to do with carnival rides.

[pipi_k]

50. Ummmm....

yeah. OK. Whatever.

Thanks anyway for your thoughtful answer to my question.

[DURHAM D]

69. Ask the OP -

she started the follow on without linking to the prior discussion.

[MicaelS]

37. The fact you can get overheated ...

In some industrial environments. Not all facilities can afford to A/C to an office comfortable environment. And proper safety procedures call for long hair to be pinned or tied up.

If you are wearing a scarf and other "modesty" garb (full sleeves and skirt or long pants) you can get overheated and then faint, suffer heat exhaustion, or heatstroke. Heat exhaustion can cause illness lasting days, and heatstroke can cause death. Wearing "modesty" garb means the only flesh exposed is the face and hands, which is insufficient for body cooling by evaporation.

Once you fall, then you can then fall into or onto moving machinery, such as a motorized conveyor system. You could faint operating moving equipment such as a forklift, and that can cause serious injury or even death if the 'lift hits someone else, or the 'lift driver crashes into racks, or drives off a shipping dock. The concrete floors, and metal rack and conveyor systems in manufacturing, warehousing and distribution facilities are much harder than human flesh. You could fall and strike your head, or limbs and suffer sever injury, or even death.

[a la izquierda]

43. Really? Because I seem to remember..

seeing men wear robes and keffiyehs (I think that's the right word) in the blistering sun in locations with temperatures well over 100 degrees. Damn, where was that?
Oh right, the Middle East. And the Sahara. I don't often hear about men dropping dead from heat exhaustion in long robes.

[MicaelS]

54. Ever hear of the wind blowing?

People sweat, wind evaporates the sweat and thus cools the body. Robes, keffiyehs, chadors are loose and allow to circulate.

BUT, Robes, keffiyehs, chadors, and any type of loose baggy clothing, dangling jewelry, or long hair is not suitable for an industrial environment due to safety issues. Nor is most type of footwear, i.e. sandals, flip flops, high heels, shoes with slick leather soles, or shoes without laces.

As long as your face isn't covered I don't care what you wear in public. I think it's stupid some people think the female body needs to be covered, but stupidity isn't against the law.

But certain apparel has no place in certain environments because human safety is at risk. It's that simple.

[pipi_k]

64. Exactly, and OTOH...

a person can get heat exhaustion/stroke when wearing almost nothing.

My second husband had that happen to him at the beach. Wearing nothing but swimming trunks. He nearly ended up in the ER.

[a la izquierda]

112. I had heat exhaustion this summer.

It's pretty awful.

[pipi_k]

58. Didn't know if you knew this, but...

if the headscarf is made of silk, it more than likely will NOT cause overheating.

It insulates in the winter and cools in the summer. So scrap that argument.


If "modesty garb" can get caught in machinery, then it should also be policy to not allow long sleeved clothing during the winter.

I've never worked at a place that made rules on what clothing would be appropriate based on temperature. If ten people say they're comfortable and I say I'm cold, then what right do those ten people have to tell me I have to take my sweater off?


If a scarf of any kind has ends that are wrapped around the head/neck and are ALSO flopping loose more than a couple of inches, then yes...I can see safety issue. But any headscarf I've ever seen on a Muslim woman has had the ends neatly tucked in. Maybe I'm missing something...

[Lionessa]

81. Properly tied, a scarf can be for controlling such, additionally

as you point out, a scarf is no worse than long hair, so if long hair isn't unsafe, neither would be a scarf. In unsafe arenas, scarf would be safer than long hair, one because of the ability to use it to control long hair, but more importantly, scarfs don't stay on all that well so if it did get caught, it would come off where hair would stay mostly attached and pull the head toward whatever it was caught into.

[Lucian]

140. Safety is a factor for my underwear on Taco Tuesdays.

:eyes: to your response.

[FSogol]

3. Yeah, those Nuns creep me out...

Actually, headscarfs don't bother me at all.

[whathehell]

23. Headscarves don't bother you?...Then nuns shouldn't either...It's been decades since they've

worn the old medieval habit....Many wear plain clothes only,

at least when they're in public.

[FSogol]

57. I was joking. Many condemn headscarfs worn by Muslims, but don't mind them worn by nuns.

:shrug:

[whathehell]

86. Gotcha...But there actually is a difference, in that nuns are part of a

formal religious order...They do not exemplify all of Catholic womanhood, whereas the Muslim tradition*

proscribes that ALL females past childhood should cover their heads.



*I say "tradition" because many claim it's "cultural" rather than "religious".

[Jmaxfie1]

4. Not if its self choosen. n/t

[Jmaxfie1]

14. I really don't know anybody threatened by them.

Even Republicans I know are fine with it as long as no one is forcing them to do it.

[hamsterjill]

21. Yep, that's the clincher!

I don't particularly like them myself, that's just me. I don't like baggy pants on young men, either!

The real issue is, of course, as you indicate, that the person is wearing the head scarf by their own choosing. When that's the case, it's none of my business how the person chooses to dress.

[Jmaxfie1]

94. exactly.

As long as a person is not forced to wear a head scarf (by parents or peers) I don't think it is any of my business.

[fishbulb703]

115. +1000

[Jmaxfie1]

116. Thanks!!! :) n/t

[Jmaxfie1]

162. I think it should be a total choice.

I don't think Muslims should try to influence (in a harsh way) other Muslims to wear a headscarf. I think the choice to wear any covering should be made completely freely. This means no peer pressure, etc. I would think that Allah would want one to freely choose, because honestly if one is forced to or pressured into it, how is this not just to fit in instead of for Allah. I think people that freely in the true sense would be more favored by Allah, then those that were forced. (either by custom or law). I'm not a Muslim, so can not really speak for Muslims, but we worship the same God. And my understanding of God is that he loves those that freely choose more than those that realize on custom. I would love to hear from a Muslim on this. Is my understanding the same as you see Allah or not?

[ret5hd]

5. Berets are the true villains!

[immoderate]

83. C'est vrai, mon ami!

--imm

[Romulox]

6. Why don't men wear them? Koran demands "modesty" from BOTH sexes

and yet I see men in shorts leading women in full head-to-toe garb quite frequently.

[leftyladyfrommo]

12. And you know those outfits have to be sweltering in summer

but probably not so bad in winter.

That's what i think about. how uncomfortable they look. Especially those head to toe things where the poor women look out through some kind of mesh. I do have as problem with those but just because I am a feminist and I think women should wear whatever they want by choice - not because they have to.

[Romulox]

19. What a crying shame to travel 4000 miles and bring THAT part of home with them...

That's my honest feeling.

[NNN0LHI]

31. I've seen Catholic nuns covered from head to toe to prove their devotion to God

And they also had to take a vow to never have a sexual relationship with anyone on top of that. And no one ever raises any questions about nuns being oppressed. It would be considered impolite to even suggest such a thing in our society.

Don

[Bunny]

39. Fail.

Entering holy orders is completely voluntary, cannot take place before the woman reaches adulthood, and requires years of rigorous training and weeding out before acceptance into the role. Plus, they're free to leave if they have a change of heart.

PS - priests are also required to take vows of celibacy.

[NNN0LHI]

42. What happens if a nun is caught breaking her vow of celibacy?

Can she ever be forgiven and welcomed back into the order of other nuns or will she shunned forever by them?

Don

[Bunny]

45. I have no idea. How is that relevant to the discussion?

:shrug:

[whathehell]

95. What happens?....No big whoop, if that's what you're expecting

and it certainly seems like you are, if I may say:eyes:


What "happens" is that, like any other catholic "sinner" she confesses privately

to a priest....Priests are bound to the "seal of the confessional" so

no one else need know about it, and even if others did, Catholics

do believe in forgivenes, so there's nothing to keep her from coming back if she wished

[Fla Dem]

134. Maybe so, but at least she would be beaten or killed. n/t

[whathehell]

159. You're not responding to me, are you?

I know of no instance where a nun is "beaten or killed"

for breaking the celibacy rule.

[Fla Dem]

181. No, responding to NNN0LHI and "would" s/h/b " wouldn't.". (n/t)

[whathehell]

184. Ok. n/t

[leftynyc]

56. Find me a nun

who was forced by her father or brother to join the order and we'll have this conversation. Otherwise, you're just trying to deflect.

I've not beef with anything that does not cover the face.

[snooper2]

63. If you want to compare goofy religous clothing traditions between Christianity and Islam

You might want to use some of the below examples...They are in the same class in my book. Don't show no thigh now :rofl:














Oh, if anyone is interested in some of the fine clothing above, you can find it here :)

Catholic Home and Garden
Modest Clothing for Christian Women

http://www.catholichomeandgarden.com/catholic_modesty.htm

[whathehell]

100. That link is one hundred percent bullshit...and the "Catholics" you're showing look like Mormons

of the minor and illegal polygamous set...The others appear to be Muslim.

Please give us a break.:eyes:

[snooper2]

107. It's not my fault you don't like pastels

:rofl:

[whathehell]

110. I don't like lies, either.

[snooper2]

113. what's a lie? Some Christians don't dress very modestly?

I would agree the vast majority don't...


But Alas, that's because Muslims actually follow what their holy book says.

[whathehell]

127. Awwww...."Some christians don't dress very "modestly"?...Neither do some Jews or Buddhists...Duh.

Please get your knee jerk christian bashing "freak" on elsewhere.

It's really not pertinent and makes you sound less than intelligent.

[snooper2]

137. you aren't following the conversation very well, I said yes, Muslims follow their bible

What's the new testament say about dress again?

Oh-

in I Timothy 2: 9: “In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel…”

And-

in Deuteronomy 22:5 as follows: “The woman shall not wear that which pertains unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord your God.”



Pants? LOL

Like I said, Muslims follow their holy book

[whathehell]

142. Is that what this is?...a "conversation"?

Guess what, honey?...The Muslim "bible" as you put it,

(It's called the "Qu'ran" or "Koran", genius)

does not say a THING about head coverings according to

many Muslims themselves, LOL...If you were "following the conversation"

you'd know that it is considered "cultural" rather than "religious".

As for Deuteronomy, dude...that was a LONG time ago, and unlike some others

it seems, most Christians have "moved on" with regard to dress.

HINT: Brush up on the "basics" of an issue before entering into an argument on it, LOL.

[snooper2]

144. moved on...lol

“Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: and Allah is well acquainted with all that they do.”

“And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! Turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.”



I guess it's good everyone just "moved on" eh? only took a couple thousand years :rofl:

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

[whathehell]

152. You're not much for subtlety, are you, LOL?...Sorry if that phrase isn't in your bible,

my little bible spouting bud..Y'all learn how to preach out there in Texas?

By the way, the two quotes you've listed do NOT match!

There's mention of "dress" in the Koran passage but not the Bible!

So WHAT was your point, again?:rofl:

[Romulox]

72. In some cultures, head covering are required of ALL lay-women, from the time they hit puberty.

Your analogy is therefore quite strained.

[polmaven]

84. I have used that argument

often in conversation with friends, and, as a matter of fact, with a former "brother" in a Catholic order. I have told him that I would not make a good Catholic, as I am too much of a feminist. I have mentioned the habits that some nuns still do wear, as well as the refusal of the Catholic hierarchy to ordain women as priests.

But, to the point of the OP - no, I have no objection if that is the woman's choice, but if it is someone else's choice, that is another story.

[whathehell]

93. Um, No. Very few nuns do the "head to toe" deal anymore, and even when they did

it was not "to prove their devotion to God".

What many do not know, (even those raised Catholic, like me) is that the "old style"

outfit was actually based on women's everyday dress in different countries in the Middle Ages..Strange,

but true...They simply never modernized, which they have done now.

In any case, you really can't compare nuns, who freely take vows,

as part of living in a religious order, to everyday scarf wearing muslim women.

The Catholic church does not proscribe head coverings for catholic women, generally, and haven't (if they ever did)

for hundreds of years.

[NNN0LHI]

97. My mother wouldn't enter a Catholic church without a veil covering over her face in the early 1960's

Something like this:



-----------------------

All the women and girls wore them. I don't know if it was required or voluntary?

[whathehell]

103. Well, then I guess

she was unusual...There was certainly no proscription to do so.

Up until the eighties, I guess,

it was traditional for girls and women to wear

something on their heads -- a hat, or something,

but NEVER their faces.

[NNN0LHI]

104. When I said none of the women did above I meant ...

... none of the other women would enter without them either. Sorry about not being clearer.

Don

[whathehell]

106. I've never seen or heard of it....I don't know who this group was,

but growing up catholic in the very conservatively catholic Philadelphia of the fifties and sixties,

I never saw or heard of such a thing.:shrug:

[whathehell]

194. Very voluntary...The "veil" is actually a hat with a veil...They are in an out of style. n/t

[haele]

34. Actually, they aren't that sweltering -

Several years ago I lived near an apartment complex where there were quite a few muslim women in full burkas - during a particularly hot day waiting in line at the local market, I asked one, the mother of a school friend of the kidlet, how she could stand the heat - she giggled and said she was wearing a bikini top and her gauze pants, and it was very cool and breezy underneath.

They make due as they can. And apparently, they're wearing less and lighter clothes than my great grandmother remembers wearing during the brutal Missouri summers of her youth.

If it comes to safety, be it driving or working - or recreational activities - most muslim ladies I'm familiar with will wear a smaller, tighter fitting headscarf that won't get caught in equipment or can let their face be recognized if in a situation where they have to provide identification.

Haele

[Cleita]

61. I read something years ago about the reason Bedouin

nomads wear those voluminous caftans. It's because they are cooler than regular clothes and act like a tent shading their bodies underneath.

[whathehell]

20. Yes, that's what my spouse says...When in London last spring, I saw women in full black chador

next to jean and t-shirt wearing young men..and yes, they were together.

Muslims are generally from VERY patriarchal societies, although

the individual attitudes may vary.

[formernaderite]

89. I've also seen women in belly shirts

flaunting a pierced bellybutton and a headscarf. I'm guessing they sneak out of the house fully covered, and then when they get to campus they pull off the outer shirt. Still, it seems more immodest to walk around in skinny jeans, heels and a bare midriff than being bare headed.
Not that i minded looking at the girls. My wife on the other hand, hates seeing women who have to wear the quasi-burka... not sure what it's called, but it does feature an eye-slit.

[Lucian]

141. Yeah, that's my problem with the religon.

Among other things.

[tridim]

7. I'm not threatened by them, however..

I think all clothing worn specifically for religious reasons is pretty pathetic.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

8. Tack squad helmets bother me. Headscarves, not so much.

[LibDemAlways]

9. If you mean headscarves on Muslim women, no. Not crazy about

full-on burqas, especially when the wife is covered head-to-toe while the husband is in slacks and a short-sleeved shirt, but that's ultimately their business. I get no say.

[robinlynne]

10. not at all. BUt berkas really really scare me. When the face is totally covered.

They always have, way before 9-11 and all the islamaphobia.

[whathehell]

26. Yes,

and if that's not repressive, I don't know what is.

[get the red out]

49. +1

It has nothing to do with "terrorism" for me, long before 911 I've always gotten upset over women being oppressed anywhere, anytime, under any circumstances. Would I discriminate against anyone over it? Hell no, that's against everything I believe in as well. Do I believe there are "religious" organizations that are as bad or WORSE homegrown in the US where women effectively have zero rights despite the Constitution? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[whathehell]

87. No, I don't associate it

with "terrorism" in any way either -- That's just silly. Some say, in fact, that

it's actually a cultural observance rather than a "religious" one.

[Rockholm]

11. Like a cancer patients headscarf or a muslim headscarf?

I find neither offensive nor am I threatened by them.

[Donnachaidh]

13. headscarves don't -- but the negative reactions to them DO bother me

My son's best friend in pre-k was Iranian, and his Mom wore a scarf. She came to me one day when we both got there to pick the guys up and she thanked me because my son had gone out of his way to play with her son (her words). I told her that I don't think it was a conscious act -- the two of them just hit it off as kids do.

We then talked for quite a bit, and she told me that she had had to move her son out of a previous school because kids were giving him crap over his mother wearing a scarf. PRE-K kids were calling a classmate a TERRORIST.

I was stunned rigid, and embarrassed to death for both mother and son. We've got a hip deep level of stupid and mean in this country. We really do.

[soleiri]

51. When my son was in 2nd grade

He had a friend who was Muslim and his mom wore a headscarf.
We got to know each other well enough that she babysat my 2 sons after school on days I had to work.
She even took them to her mosque on Friday.
Unfortunately, they moved the next year.

[whathehell]

105. I don't like them, but I'd never say anything to anyone who chose to wear them, and I don't think

most people would.

As for the "hip level of stupid and mean in this country"..Well, I'd say a knee level, actually,

and it's not confined to "this country"...Ever see how Christians are persecuted, sometimes KILLED

for their religion in Muslim countries?...Check it out sometime.

As for your experience?..Well, no offense, but I see that you do live in Georgia.

[Donnachaidh]

135. christians are persecuted -- one word response to that

Crusades. Christians have a long bloodthirsty history as well.

And offense taken -- I'm living in Georgia, but not from here. Nice broadbrush, considering there is no access to some people's profiles :eyes:

[whathehell]

136. Oh..I see...So cutting off the heads of Christian girls should be "payback" for a medieval war?

That's some sound thinking, there, bro.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4387604.stm

BTW, can you show me a country where the majority has NO

history of persecuting it's minority or minorities?

Take offense, if you like....Georgia hasn't voted

for a democratic president since Jimmy Carter.

As for my profile, I'll fill in the location for you..I live

in the suburbs of Chicago, Illinois.

[whathehell]

186. Whatever Ignored said

Going back a thousand years or so

to justify something going on now doesn't cut it.

My point is that it's silly to act like ours

is the only country where some people "persecute" those

who are "different" in their society...It's unfortunate,

but it happens in every society

in the world.

[ieoeja]

216. Especially since Damascus *started* the damn war.

Christian Europe didn't give a shit when the Muslim caliphate of Cairo ruled Jerusalem. But when the caliphate of Damascus conquered Jerusalem, they immediately set about persecuting the Christians, both native and Europeans on pilgrimage.

You shouldn't start a damn war then whine and bitch about the other guy fighting back.

[whathehell]

217. Agreed.

and Islam won, anyway -- A fact that came as a surprise to a young Muslim friend

of my spouse and I. Really...He's a good guy, but he's quite religious and we

had to tell him that Islam won that one...One wonders if history

may be getting distorted in some Muslim areas for propaganda reasons.:eyes:

[sabrina 1]

167. Well, some people are victimized in every society, like here, eg

Gays are still victimized and not just by other citizens, by our government. And not so long ago, African Americans couldn't sit in the front of buses here. People had to DIE to get all that changed and it's still not over.

I have no problem with women wearing scarves. I like them actually. My friends from the ME laugh when I tell them people here think their husbands force them to wear scarves. They wear them if they feel like it and don't when they don't feel like it, like here.

Just because there are fundies who adhere to certain traditions doesn't mean ALL 1 billion Muslims do.

Suppose people in foreign countries judged this country by this eg:



Or this, being that she was the First Lady:



Or how about Nancy Pelosi?



Or Laura Bush?



Or the Queen?



Or celebrities like Halle Berry



Why should it bother us what people wear, or why they wear what they wear? We are not the world's arbiters on what customs of fashions people like to adhere to.

Isn't there something more important to worry about? I imagine other parts of the world wonder a lot about our culture.

Such as this eg, which is my least favorite head-gear for women:



Especially the killing machine she's carrying.

I don't see any weapons of death in the hands of the Muslim women wearing scarves, so they are no threat to me at all.

Which might be more shocking to an outsider of both cultures do you think, the image above or this one?



Maybe try looking at our culture from other peoples' pov for a change.

[HappyMe]

198. Stop making sense!!

I have no problem with head scarves, nun attire, Amish attire... any clothes or headgear people wear.

It's THEIR culture or religion, so I don't have a damn thing to say about it. None of my business.

[K8-EEE]

15. If I'm going to be honest I'm sayin' yes

To me they represent an archaic religion that treats women as inferiors WHen I was kid I wore a chapel veil to church so as not to offend God -- the Catholic church did away with that and I did away with the Catholic Church. I am just so sick of religious BS being forced on people and IMO If it was truly voluntary nobody would be wearing these scarves in 100 degree weather.

Now this is not to say I support government action against the practice of wearing and DEFINITELY not rudeness towards people wearing them but honestly they do kind of bum me out. I feel sorry for little girls having to cover up like they have something to be ashamed of just for being girls, while their brothers scamper around in comfortable clothes, uncovered. I just hate what all that represents.

[Arctic Dave]

16. Only if they are on a pirate.

[whathehell]

17. To be honest,

They do, a bit...I'm a LONG time feminist and it just seems repressive.

I know that many muslim women say it's not, but I really

find it hard to believe when I see them covering their heads

AND their necks in 90 degree weather....That being said,

I certainly respect their right to do so.

And yes, before I get flamed I DO know muslims (admittedly not many)

and I have NO problem with them as people whatsoever.

[SmileyRose]

18. It has nothing to do with the scarf.

[guitar man]

24. I have no problem with them

I even wear them myself :)

[Blue_In_AK]

25. When I was a little kid,

I used to sing the song "Young at Heart."

"And here is the best part....
You get a head scarf
If you are among the very young at heart."


My very first case of misheard lyrics. :rofl:

[Ganja Ninja]

27. No not at all.

I just look at it as none of my business.

[Ian David]

28. Actually, I think they're sexy.

Except in certain instances...

[whathehell]

171. Sure you do.

:eyes:

[Ian David]

190. I do! If you could check my Twitter feed for while I was on vacation in Niagra Falls, you'd know it.

[pipi_k]

199. I do too.

And I think the Indian shalwar kameez are sexy as well. Along with the sari.

Like the headscarf, elegantly sexy.

Not cheap "sexy".

:shrug:

[tblue]

30. Does it matter if it bothers people? No, really, does it?

The point is we live and let live whether we are bothered or not.

But me personally, no. If a woman doesn't want it but is coerced, I would absolutely support her. But its not my faith or culture so it's not my place to butt in unless asked.

[pipi_k]

32. nahhh....

I think they're quite attractive, to be honest. And I've given some thought to wearing one myself to hide my fat chin...

:7

[pennylane100]

33. Yes they bother me but I am not threatened by them.

I am also old enough to remember when women were expected to cover their heads when they went to church. I asked my mother about it and she said that a woman's uncovered head was a distraction to men. I told her that the men should stop staring and the problem would be solved.

[InvisibleTouch]

35. I think they're kind-of elegant, actually.

But if you're referring to the story of the women in headscarves denied a ride at an amusement park, that seems to be a matter of safety. Wearing any kind of loose fluttery clothing or long loose hair would be ill-advised on some of those rides, and the park operators are right to catch it before there's a tragedy.

[treestar]

38. No. With religion, it's live and let live

Whether it is a nun's habit or a Muslim head covering.

[seabeyond]

40. dont care an iota. the only thing.... because unusual, i will glance and i want to say

i am not thinking anything bad... really. lol

[scheming daemons]

41. I'm bothered by anything that is intended to keep someone subservient

And that is what it is used for in some cultures

[OwnedByFerrets]

79. Just my thoughts

[no_hypocrisy]

44. No. No more than an Hassidic (Jewish) woman wearing one does.

It's a small gesture of humility in their religions.

My SIL is Muslim, wears a Chador, and I don't notice it at all.

[provis99]

46. headscarves? Like on these Christian Hutterites?

Oh, these Hutterites with their headscarves scare me; you never know if they're concealing a bomb under there.:sarcasm:

[snooper2]

48. I think they are pretty stupid and misogynistic

It's so a "man" can keep his "prize" 100% for himself...covered in the shroud of being "modest".


Another ignorant tradition passed down due to religion. It will probably take 1000 years but someday they will be a thing of the past. Of course this is on the basis that humans become more intelligent and enlighted about the sciences as they have over the past 100 years.


It would be cool if my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great granddaughter is being told one of the religous versions of the flood story before bedtime. Then when the cover of the book is closed it says "Classic Fairy Tales" on the top. :)

[LanternWaste]

62. Almost as misogynistic and stupid as 10 year old girl wearing hiphuggers that read

Almost as misogynistic and stupid as 10 year old girl wearing hiphuggers that read "booty-licous" across the back?

Or are we merely limiting our critiques of clothing based on our interpretation of someone's interpretation of religion? Thinking about it, I'm assuming the latter is the correct answer... :shrug:

[snooper2]

70. nope, that's misogynistic to a point as well, but it's apples and oranges

Due to the religous aspect of it...Check upthread the pictures I posted.

I'll I'm doing is stating MY interpretation of religion and how it is keeping women "in their place". Doesn't matter which one it is.

Of course, as well as with other subjects around religions such as being a martyr, praying and eating theres a big difference. Muslims actually follow their "holy" book, most Christians don't.



You look across the street and see your neighbor mowing the lawn. You don't think, "eh, mowing on Sunday?", I should kill him!


Bill Maher said it best :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qt4WVmwhyRw

[nomb]

52. It's not up to me. It's up to the man to decide and enforce, or his family and neighbors.

[saras]

53. They didn't bother Isadora Duncan one bit.

And no, I don't feel that headscarves are so incredibly innocuous that they override someone'e need to visually identify someone else.

Other than that, they're clothes, no more, no less.

LOTS of clothes are inappropriate in LOTS of conditions in the real world. I can't offhand think of a reason for headscarves to be an exception.

[whathehell]

129. Except for the one that strangled her?

[Cleita]

55. No it doesn't, and I agree with you. If that's what a woman

wants to wear on her head, in a country where no one says you have to, then she should be free to do so. I don't want anyone telling me that I can't wear a hat if I choose to do so.

[nomb]

59. Women have no say in the matter. But feel free to trot one out that claims she speaks for Islam.

[Cleita]

66. In maybe the country of their origin. But you

obviously don't know many muslim women in this country. They can choose to not wear them if they want to. I worked with many muslim women at UCLA. One student I knew only did when her family was around. Although her father expected her to wear a scarf, out of respect for him, she wore it leaving the house and took it off after her parents couldn't see her. She even dressed up in punk outfits when it suited her. She just didn't do it at home. How many of us have done the same thing. I know many American teenagers back in the day whose father forbade them to wear mini-skirts and other sexy clothes who left the house in demure gear and changed into mini-skirts and other fashionable clothing once they were out of the house. So really in America you don't have to and if a woman does, it's a choice.

[nomb]

67. Stories like the one you refer to are near-common lede's to family honor killing stories in Europe.

[Cleita]

91. Sometimes they do but mostly they don't so don't

make out like everyone is doing it.

[nomb]

118. Yes, I was only referring to deaths. Not the beatings, disfigurations, or those who ran away and hid

To say little of those great, vast and deep swaths of women who are cowed into submission by their fathers, husbands, brothers or extended family and community.

[Cleita]

150. Those are still not the norm. Most families love their

daughters like anywhere else in the world and protect them from the extremes of the fundamentalists. I lived in an apartment building that was taken over by Iranian muslim immigrants in Los Angeles back in the eighties. Yes, many of the women wore the dress. Many did not. I got to know many of them quite well and in spite of the fact that we celebrate different holidays, their family life wasn't much different than mine. The covert xenophobia in your posts is disturbing.

[nomb]

154. The UK has 17,000 "honour" related violent incidents a year according to the Police Stats.

Seventeen thousand.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/a-question-of-honour-police-say-17000-women-are-victims-every-year-780522.html


If that's not the "norm"....

[Cleita]

165. That is out of 2, 869,000 muslims in England according to Pew. That's

not even one percent and you aren't even talking about killings only incidents. I think you could find a higher percentage of killings in any demographic other than muslims in New York City alone. Really, what are you trying to prove?

[gkhouston]

60. Head scarves? They only bother me when

I see hair curlers underneath them. x(

[NeedleCast]

65. Not as long as they don't cover the entire face

or if safety were a concern (not allowing people to wear them if operating dangerous machinery in which they could become entangled, for example).

I don't really care if someone wants to wear a full burka if that's their cup of tea but I agree they should have to remove enough of it to be identified in (very limited) circumstances.

[closeupready]

68. No, they don't bother me. I've known many muslims in my life,

some of the women amongst those acquaintances wore a head covering, most did not. Fine by me, either way.

But then I'm not Islamophobic, unlike a large portion of DU.

[whathehell]

175. You think a "large portion of DU" is islamophobic because some don't like the headscarf?

What sanctimonious bullshit.

Then again, you'd probably call Turkey and France

"Islamophobic" for not liking them, either.

[closeupready]

201. Don't lie about what I said.

First and last warning.

[whathehell]

213. "Don't 'lie' about what I said"?....Who's lying?...The thread bears the record of your remarks, Lol.

As for your "first and last warning"...Are you threatening me

and if so, with what? -- the dire consequences of not HEARING from you anymore?:rofl:

[whathehell]

215. In Post #68 you said "But then I'm not Islamophobic, unlike a large portion of DU"..

Where is the "lie"?:shrug:

[Zax2me]

195. WTF?!

Are you for real?

[closeupready]

200. More real than you are, if you check my profile, newbie.

nt

[whathehell]

211. Newbies often make a lot of sense, as in this case, LOL!

[Baby Bear]

71. My Mom Use to Wear One

But it was a long time ago.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/12/We_Can_Do_It!.jpg/463px-We_Can_Do_It!.jpg

[Frances]

74. If you look at movies from the 50s

women used to wear head scarves when they were riding in convertibles or when it was windy or rainy. Had to protect those bouffant hairdos.

The scarves were usually brightly colored.

But Jackie Kennedy wore a black one when going into a Catholic church. I'm not Catholic, but I seem to remember that Catholic churches provided scarves for women who were going inside and didn't have a scarf with them.

And I seem to remember that middle-aged and older Italian women usually wore black dresses and scarves when I was young (obviously a long time ago)

[swilton]

73. The issue is a distraction

designed to stigmatize the other and divide the masses....

[AngryAmish]

75. I feel bad for the ladies dressed head to toe in black on 95 degree days

There is a big mosque in my neighborhood and lots of people go around in "Islamic" garb. 95 degrees and humid is not good.

But, to each their own.

[NMDemDist2]

76. Only when I tie 'em too tight

:hide:

[Lionessa]

77. Abso-f'ing'-lutely! I hate those things and I think....

that there are probably things I wear that others hate, so tuff tarts for me and tuff tarts for them. They should proudly continue to wear whatever they like and I'll do the same.

[OwnedByFerrets]

78. Only because in my eyes they demean women.

It seemingly indicates that they are lesser than their male counterparts.

[ItNerd4life]

80. All women should be barefoot and pregnant too.

I guess womens rights don't mean anything to people. For many women if they don't wear them, they will be beaten.
Of course, they say they want to wear them, if they don't say they want to wear them, they will be beaten.

[closeupready]

126. Such obviously silly thing to say, it feels kind of unfair to refute it.

I'll let it's absurdity speak for itself.

[MineralMan]

82. Well, I never wear them myself, but they can be lovely if carefully

chosen to go with an ensemble. Here in Minnesota, they're quite popular in the winter, and very attractive most of the time. Is this what you were talking about?

[kestrel91316]

85. Of course not. I wear a headscarf (actually my lovely Kashmiri pashmina)

on occasion when walking in cold weather.

But if this is in reference to the amusement park ride that doesn't allow them on the ride, I say SAFETY FIRST.

[WCGreen]

88. Only if the person wearing the head scarf is riding on a motorcycle

weaving in and out of traffic when the scarf suddenly flys off the head of the person wearing the scarf and flutters into the windshield of a Mack Truck which then startles the driver who weaves which cause the load, which happen to be humongous hunks of lumber , on his truck to shift which then forces the person driving a bright white mercedes to swerve but way to quickly causing the merc to roll over off the parkway and onto a driveway where three kids a playing hopscotch...

In that case, I'm in favor of banning head scarfs.

Other than that, nah!

[CaliforniaPeggy]

102. ROFLMAO!

[Fumesucker]

90. I've never worn one..

I wouldn't know.

:shrug:

[alfredo]

92. I like how the Hijab frames the face. Christian women use

their hair in the same way. With the Hijab, you don't have to worry about having a bad hair day.



If the Hijab is the woman's choice, I have no objections.

[whathehell]

109. Please "Face framing" is not the reason Muslim women are wearing a hijab.

and it's not just "Christian" and Muslim women who try and frame their face.

You may be trying a too hard, Alfredo.:eyes:

[alfredo]

119. If you had read the last line, I said it should be her choice.

I knew some North African women who would wear the Hijab at times. When they did, the fabrics they wore were beautiful. The way the fabric moved while the rollerblade to class was a sight to see. They had the choice, so they dressed as the mood or situation suited them.

This is a Turkish woman.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NzySrEkYbPE/SdRfY2hZeNI/AAAAAAAAA6M/RBwd6YoNrus/s320/turkish+style+hijab.jpg

Again, it must be a choice, not a requirement. My sisters wore shawls quite a bit. They did it because they liked them. Muslim women should have the choice to wear the shawls or not. They should not be forced to accept or reject the shawl/hijab.

[nomb]

121. But it's not. And by the way, your photo of a Turkish women omits the fact that her scarf is illegal

She may not go on Turkish Goverment property like that.


Not even to school or University.

[closeupready]

128. Yeah, but, by the same token, you neglected to mention that Mars is the fourth planet from the sun.

Which has as much to do with the topic as Turkish law does.

[nomb]

130. The fact her scarf is illegal in the Muslim nation of Turkey is quite relevant.

[closeupready]

131. Nope.

[nomb]

133. Yes, actually. Turkey has banned the scarf for generations. See here:

Here's a brief introduction:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headscarf_controversy_in_Turkey

[closeupready]

170. Mars is still the 4th planet from the sun, which is equally relevant.

nt

[whathehell]

188. Poor analogy. It's very relevant. n/t

[closeupready]

197. No, it's really not. The topic, as a reminder, is does it bother you. Subsequently, the threadstar

threadstarter stated further that he/she was interested only in opinions, not legal interpretations or practices in Third World countries.

So unless you want to concede the point, I'm done with both of you and your circular discussion.

Peace.

[whathehell]

202. Yes, it really is and there's no need to remind us of of the thread starter as

these discussions always "branch out" and in this case, was not branching out

very much, as you seemed to suggest that negative feelings about head scarves or "hijabs"

were proof of Islamophobia. What the other poster was doing was

showing you that even a majority Muslim country like Turkey has limited, if not

outright banned, the wearing of the hijab, chador, etc.

I'm sure you're often "done" with those whose arguments you can't defeat...Buh bye:hi:

[closeupready]

203. Goodbye.

:hi:

[whathehell]

210. Goodbye!

:hi:

[Jmaxfie1]

166. illegal? didn't know that...

I thought Turkey was one of the better states.

[alfredo]

132. They have taken away her choice.

[whathehell]

125. I never said they should NOT have the choice...

It's just that your analogy was lame, lol, as is this picture of

nuns, since we've already noted that the two groups are not

analogous.

[alfredo]

138. Nuns had the freedom to choose a life where they have

a uniform. Women of all religions should have the choice to wear what they want to wear.

All the Koran says is that women should dress modestly. Too bad it was men who defined modesty, not the woman.

The Hijab should not be required or banned. If a woman feels comfortable in one, likes the feel of the fabric, and how it looks on her, it should be her choice, not her husband, politician, or some self appointed holy man.

The Hijab can be beautiful, and I am fine with a woman wearing them if she feels it enhances her beauty.


I lived in the Sub Sahara. long robes and scarves were necessary as protection from the sun and blowing sand. The turban you see men wearing, when unwrapped can be used as a light shawl against the cold of the night.

[whathehell]

145. What part of "I never said they shouldn't have a choice" do you not understand?

[nomb]

147. They don't have a choice.

You're safer in prison as a male child molester than as an unveiled women in much of the world.

[whathehell]

153. I know that

the issue was their "choice" in this country.

[alfredo]

155. Well, my point is that they can be beautiful, and if a woman

wants to wear them, they should be free to wear them.

My first impression was that you were against the Hijab. So I guess we agree that the Hijab is fine if not compulsory.

The Hijab is also a cultural identifier, just like wearing a shamrock, or cowboy hat.

[nomb]

156. "just like a cowboy hat". Wow. The oppressed women of the world thank you.

[alfredo]

174. Every culture has a native costume. Lederhosen, the Fez,

and the Sari are easily identified as to their culture.


The carpet hat identifies an Armenian.

[whathehell]

189. When is the last time you saw a German immigrant wearing lederhosen?

Just wondering.:popcorn:

[whathehell]

158. You're entitled to your opinion...We certainly agree

on the "rights" part.

As for saying that they are "just like wearing a shamrock or a cowboy hat"

I'm sorry, but I got a visual of someone wearing all three at once,

and it was pretty funny!

[alfredo]

176. The Hijab and rollerblades was wild enough for me.

[whathehell]

177. That sounds like fun!

[alfredo]

182. there was a look of bliss on her face.

[whathehell]

183. That's good!

[alfredo]

193. It was a revelation.

[War Horse]

96. Not in the least

Face covering does, though.

Many young, Muslim women have started wearing Hijabs here in Scandinavia not because they are forced to do so, but more as a response to (perceived and real) anti Muslim sentiment. It's a way to assert themselves. To hear some of them speak reminds me more of the people who got brightly coloured mohawks way back when that was shocking than someone who cowers before an Imam or husband.

[slackmaster]

98. They make my head sweat, just like all other head gear

I'd wear one only in very cold weather.

[Javaman]

99. Just the chaffing.nt

[Jmaxfie1]

101. Honestly, has anyone said yes???

Unless a headscarf is forced upon a woman who cares. A woman can wear a refrigerator box for all I care if she choses to do so. What I don't like is people accusing a women of being a bad Muslim because she does not wear a head scarf. I have a Tunisian friend who does not cover her head but considers herself a good Muslim. I think Muslims that do cover their heads should respect her as I respect Muslims that choose to cover their head. As long as the choice to cover one's head is taken freely, we should respect it, just as Muslim countries should respect women that choose not to cover their head.

[nomb]

120. Quite few here have stood up for Women. They did so by saying, Yes, they oppose the veil in its form

Break the chain - give this generation of women sunlight, and give the men who would like to support liberalism in women's rights the excuse, and State backing, to do so.

The laws in Europe are a tool for breaking the chain of repression of Chattel held in bondage.

It's equivalent in many ways to Affirmative Action - it seeks to leap ahead by forcing a pro-active break with the cultural millstones that hold a class of human beings back.

We could wait for white men to grant True equality of opportunity to those who are not white - just as we could wait for Islamic men to free women.

Or we can break the chains of repression. I say break the chains.


What say you?

The veil is a tool for repression, death, acid in the face, beatings are used to enforce conformity

The French and other nations are quite right in forcing it.


We in the USA on the other hand have a different and equally correct cultural heritage. The French nation is founded as much on eliminating church influence from political influence as ours is founded on absolute separation.


I would oppose the French laws here - but I strongly support them in France, and I will always oppose the Islamic actual forced submission and subjugation of women through clothing.

[Jmaxfie1]

164. Being a westerner...

I think that it must be a choice, a real choice, not your family will disown you if you do not. I've met many Muslim women who do not cover themselves, honestly I think this is best. I think Turkey is a shining light in the Muslim world.

[JoePhilly]

108. I have an irrational fear of all "head accessories" ... hats, scarves, earrings, nose rings ...

clown noses, false eye lashes, glasses, head bands, hair bows, hair extensions (those really scare me), bobby pins, hair ties, crowns, Indian head-dresses, and helmets of all kinds.

But I am ok with necklaces, and scarves worn as necklaces, because they are below the head area.

[Marrah_G]

111. No

Head Scarves are often beautiful and they don't make a woman invisible. Full body coverings do though. I started to type 'person' but changed it to woman, because it's never the man who is enslaved in such a manner.

[AmandaMae]

114. Not at all.

[Skidmore]

122. Bottom line is that you don't get to tell adherents of another faith how to observe it any more

that you don't get to tell another nation how manage its affairs.

Get out of people's bedrooms, their closets, their kitchens, and their personal lives. On this issue I am as much of a social libertarian as you can be on the left.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

123. No. But, helmets on military guys do.

[ZombieHorde]

124. They can be itchy if you are not used to wearing things on your head,

just like a hat, but other than that, headscarves don't bother me.

[Lucian]

139. They don't bother me either.

It's the religion that bothers me.

[dipsydoodle]

143. I'd look silly in one

I'm a bloke.

[KamaAina]

146. Only when their wearers get flung to their deaths from the Tilt-a-Whirl.

That bothers me.

[BlueIris]

148. No, they don't. Not frightened, don't care. nt

[Nuclear Unicorn]

149. If worn freely out of personal conscience it's totally cool

[southernyankeebelle]

151. No. However, when taken a drivers license I don't think you should cover your face.

[Jmaxfie1]

157. This got a lot of posts, I figured a simple no would be enough :) n/t

[lynne]

160. Heck, no! I love a new doo-rag -

- providing its my choice to wear it . . .

[deadinsider]

161. I don't like them in hot weather...

...though I have actually never worn one, I imagine that would be a bit uncomfortable.

[stuntcat]

163. in my neighborhood I'm used to it

I'm in South Arlington (I actually had an old white woman say to me "who lives in South Arlington?" not knowing that's where I live, the old pig) At first the scarf got my attention. And I saw a couple women with the covered face and that worried me, I mean why should women have to wear that? because they're women? I grew up down South so I had to get used to it, but here there are women with scarves everywhere, like my cool gardener neighbor 2 houses down, so I don't notice it anymore.

Except today I saw a woman crossing the street with a scarf on and a long shirt and tight skin-colored leggings! It looked like she didn't have pants on! For a second I thought, why wear the scarf when you're showing everything else? lol But then I saw it was leggings.. she was just wearing what she wanted to.

[Diclotican]

168. leftyladyfrommo

leftyladyfrommo

They really dosen't mind me to mutch.. Both my grandmother, and my great-great mother used to have if not a scarf, so at least a hat when out in the public.. My grandmother was rather found of the big hats, my great-great mother was more into scars.. As she belived, strongly that no man outside her familiy should look at her hear in public (she was queit konservative about that I belive)..

But what I do have troubles with, is the "walking tents" some are using to just disapear inside a wool of a tent.. A head scarf, no troubles at all, but I do have some issues with the walking tents some cultures demand their woman to wears.. One thing is to wish for the women to go decent when outside, a whole different thing is to walk around more or less in the dark.. It must be unsafe to walk around in this things..

Diclotican

[ecstatic]

169. No. I wear them all the time! nt

[etherealtruth]

172. Hijab .... ? No

Niqaab ....? Most definitely

[Zoigal]

178. Don't bother me here in the US but i would not like having

to wear one while in Saudi (or other Islamic countries that require it).
(i don't follow any religion.) Friends who have lived in
some of those countries have been required to wear
a burqa when they left their compounds or else run the
risk of being accosted by the religious police....z

[Warren DeMontague]

173. Not as much as crocs.

:shrug:

[JVS]

179. No. They're none of my business.

[AsahinaKimi]

180. I JUST LOVE THIS ONE...

Shintaro Katsu as Zatoichi

[DFW]

185. I am not in the least threatened by them, but they bother me

Where I spend most of my time (Germany), very many girls from Muslim families wish to assimilate
into German society but are often beaten up by their families (sometimes fatally in "honor" killings)
for not conforming to the ways of the "old country." The scarf is very often a symbol of repression
and submission that has no place in Western society. Since there is no way to know if a woman wears
it out of a personal desire to do so or out of fear of being beaten (or worse), in western Europe,
it is seen by liberal European societies as a form of repression, whether or not it is the case with
any one woman. Just the thought that a woman might be wearing the scarf because she fears for her life
if she doesn't is enough for it to bother me. My wife is a social worker in Germany. I can't count
the number of young women from Muslim families she has had to hide from beatings, forced marriage or
death because they wished to participate equally in the society in which they live (Germany) and, often,
were born, rather than the ways of their grandparents in Anatolia or the Maghreb, Kosovo or wherever.

[riderinthestorm]

205. Wow!! That's incredible. Your wife is doing really tremendous and important work.

Germany is a better place for people like her!

[DFW]

218. She says it's a mixed bag

When she places a difficult unemployed person back into the workforce, she's thrilled, but
she gets shot down more often than not. Alcohol, social problems, an addiction to welfare
lifestyle (especially bad among the Eastern European immigrants), plus uncaring bureaucrats
who are more concerned with proper stamps and signatures than with real people maybe not having
enough money to eat over the weekend, these are all obstacles that she runs up against day
after day. Why she puts up with it is completely beyond me, but she does, and has done so
for half her life. Germany is indeed a better place for people like her. I am certainly a better
person for a wife like her!

[StarsInHerHair]

187. they start to bother me if the person begins to try to convert me to their religion

otherwise no

[Violet_Crumble]

191. No, but silly hats really bother me...

[EstimatedProphet]

192. Yes, they bother me. They keep standing right next to me and saying "I'm not touching you!"

[LWolf]

196. No.

As long as the person wearing the scarf is doing so because he or she wants to, rather than because of coercion, I'm fine with head scarves.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

204. Only if she's behind the wheel, and then it depends on style

There are various styles of muslim head coverings. Some are tight, like a skullcap, and just cover hair, ears, neck. Some are wrapped so there is a little space to see out of. The first type shouldn't affect peripheral vision, so driving should be unhampered. The second kind would be like driving with a periscope, or night-vision goggles, tunnel vision only, so that would require lots of practice to do safely, and even then it's not very safe.

[bigwillq]

206. No

I don't care what people wear. It normally doesn't affect my life so they should wear what they want.

[riderinthestorm]

207. No.

With a few caveats

1. It should be entirely voluntary (I don't have confidence that is the case).

2. It shouldn't be a garment that is designed to erase the woman.

3. In many societies (including the Mid-East), headscarves are becoming highly politicized akin to wearing gang symbols. Its crappy that women are being singled out to be stamped like this by men - it's just another patriarchal put down and I hate seeing it.


That said, I believe they are a marker of a person who is easily pressured and brainwashed. They aren't sexy, modest, interesting, or even beautiful. They are hot and uncomfortable looking and I actually pity the people I see who are wearing them.

[dembotoz]

208. per safety--do remember isadora dunkin

famous dancer, scarf got caught in the wheel of a sports car, snapped her neck like a twig

so while i really don't care a fig about what a person wants to wear, i also do not want to be sued when a court decides i was somehow not careful enough and somebody gets hurt or killed.....


so wear what you want but do be careful around heavy machinery--guess a sports car could count as heavy machinery

[Iggo]

209. Only sometimes.

[Dorian Gray]

212. Why would scarves bother people?

I can understand feeling disconcerted when a woman wears a full hajib, but a headscarf?

[Bucky]

214. When women remove their headscarves, their hair drives me insane with lust.

Oh, those tawdry tempstresses must be controlled.

[whathehell]

219. Yes.

based on what I've read, that was/is the "reasoning" behind it.:eyes:

[Fuzz]

220. No, the religious superstition and oppression behind the scarf kind of bother me and threaten logic

and reason.