Hi, Michael Vick here. I would like to thank all the little people...

[Safetykitten]

100 million! Can you believe that shit? I got 100 million! And I would not have been able to get there without the help of all the little people. My agent, Ed over at the ASPCA, Rodger, the head of the NFL, and who am I missing? Well, whatever, like anybody cares anymore. I am the hero of rehabilitation. I am now clean. 100 million says so.

It's not like my case was like others. I mean, I play football, and my fans would love me if I had that rape stand painted and put in my new condo. It is kind of cool looking really. Other people are fucked up in the head and need help. Not me. Not one fucking day on a couch. It was just off to the spin guys and then hop in a limo to the school to tell the kids how bad things happen to good people. And I am good people. I play FOOTBALL, fucking football.

So all you haters, and I mean all you depressed dog lovers. Money talks and bullshit buys the electrodes.

Thanks again, and see you on the field and on TV, because I am clean now. My accountant says so.

Oh, and on the edit thing, can you believe those sad commercials with the dogs and that chick singer? That's fucked up! She would love me if she met me. Everybody does.

[provis99]

1. he had millions before, and blew it all.

Five years after retirement he will be flat broke.

[Fumesucker]

2. If you can throw a ball better than most people you're fucking hero..

I seem to be missing a part of the apparently normal human personality that leads to having heroes to worship, I honestly don't get it.

[Hubert Flottz]

3. 100 million to the fuckin' loser.

No wonder the world is so fucked up.

[blueamy66]

27. I was disgusted when I saw the newspaper yesterday morning.

I seriously pray for vick to break his leg early in the season....first game would be appropriate.

Anyone that can do that to dogs deserves to live "in hell" the rest of their life.

[MilesColtrane]

4. And so begins the Curse of Johnny Justice.

Hopefully this will be the beginning of an 80 or 100 year drought for Philadelphia.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

49. In the modern era it's been over 40 years already. nt

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hubert Flottz]

6. Damn...

That makes me sad.

Going to give my little dog a hug.

[Bluebear]

7. Sadistic scum. May Philly lose every game.

[VWolf]

41. That's pretty much their season every year. n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

58. What year do you think this is? Elvis: dead, or alive? nt

[MissDeeds]

160. +1

I hope he encounters a lot of dog lovers on the field. Torture of any living creature is not okay.

[mfcorey1]

8. PETA admitted that Vick has brought more attention to the plight of abused animals than any effort

they have had. He broke the law and paid his dues and is still paying his dues every time someone hates him for his past. The same people glorify and forgive others who have committed unspeakable crimes. I say go Mike. You are earning every dime. Use it wisely and continue to repair your life and bring attention to the needs of not only dogs but all animals. Maybe some of those who hate you will stop leaving their animals home alone all day while they go to work. Maybe some of them will stop tying their animals to post in their yards with leashes that are too tight. Maybe some of them will stop slapping their dogs with newspaper in training sessions in order to get them to obey them and call it obedience school. Maybe some of them will stop letting their kids pull the dogs by their ears and call it "cute". Maybe some of them will stop throwing their dogs on the back of hot trucks and riding through the neighborhood. Maybe some of them will take time to clean the dirty bowl of water that they throw in front of their animals daily. Just maybe some of them will look in the mirror and see that it is easy to criticize behind the security of a keyboard and then do much worse to their own animals and see nothing wrong with it. I commend you as you rebuild your life. The best lessons are learned when you spin out of control and have to pay penance for illegal activity. The worst lesson is when you are given a second chance and learn nothing from it. You continue to learn from your mistake. There will be and have been those who will never feel you deserve redemption and that is okay. They will hate every fiber of your being and now that you have been given this big contract, their heads will continue to explode. I say continue to speak out about your mistakes because as you do, you make young people aware of what should never happen to their animals. Believe me. It is effective. And now the flame war begins.

[Bluebear]

10. 'and is still paying his dues every time someone hates him for his past' - poor baby.

Contact me in 10 years, I will say it's in his "past".

And to say he is doing a service to abused animals by speaking out about what he did? Disgusting.

[sofa king]

18. As soon as he strokes a check....

...he will have donated more money to the cause of animal rights than the sum total of donations to that cause from any single person here.

In fact, just moving to the Eagles already did that. To head off the animal rights lobby, the Eagles donated $50K to the Humane Society as soon as they hired Vick. They'll do it again this year, too.

That of course does not fully mitigate the crimes he has already committed (though one could argue that his sentencing was supposed to do that). But soon, those who wish to see Vick permanently punished will also have to argue against the value of the donations Vick has personally offered to their cause, and explain how Vick's money is worth less than their own Internet message board writings.

[Bluebear]

24. Nice passive aggressive swipe. Enjoy your football game.

[blueamy66]

29. Yeah, cause the Eagles care about dogs.

Are you that silly?

[lukasahero]

51. "$50K"?

Could they spare it?

:eyes:

[sofa king]

142. Can you?

Then they rather exceeded your devotion to the cause, didn't they?

[blueamy66]

179. I would say that Lukas' $50 donation would mean alot

more than the Eagles' $50k donation....but I could be wrong

:crazy:

[muffin1]

68. Hmm...he got 100 million.

And the Eagles donated 50K. And another this year.

Obviously, most people here cannot afford 50K donations. However, my hubby and I have been feeding around 15 feral cats for the last six years or so. Every fucking day. In addition, we have adopted and cared for many rescue kitties over the years - we currently have three. We haven't tortured a single animal EVER. I only work sporadically, and hubby makes around $35,000 a year. We have one old car and a tiny house. We basically live paycheck to paycheck.

FUCK VICK. He should donate at least half of that fucking 100 million dollars. He should be touring the fucking country apologizing and counseling others NOT to take the route he took.

FUCK VICK.

[Bluebear]

81. And that is THAT.

:loveya:

[sofa king]

151. Except for the money, of course.

Which you will happily accept.

[Bluebear]

164. Feh

[blueamy66]

180. +1,000,000

nt

[Safetykitten]

13. Sociopaths R Us

How ironic. Vick gets a big payday and Cheney is wheeled around and propped up hawking his book. Coinky-dink? Kinda a perverse way that baby Jesus lets things happen, don't you think? Vick, a part-time human and all around fabulous football player gets a pass from you. Cheney? What about him? Where's his love from you?

Still don't get it? Let's walk you through this. Crimes were comitted by both people. One Mr. Cheney runs around telling his take on his situation, Vick also does the same. You think Cheney should go over to Afghanistan and tell wedding parties the dangers of drone missles? Your missive is that Vick is the now the savior of all the bad dog people. Kinda like the Jesus that will save the dogs from hideous owners. But the facts are there and cannot be changed. They are both criminals.

Now I know if Cheney could throw a tight spiral, then we would be in the clear in both these sad situations, but it is what it is.

Generally speaking about groups of people and their inability to see a wrong especially when it walks around in a jock strap and tight pants is mystifying to me. But people have to pass their time somehow. It's a very busy day when you have to whip saw your empty skull around to call one criminal a bad person, and one a great guy that paid his dues.

I, myself have no use for people with the parsing of the crimes, and alleged rehabilitation when the people that committed the crimes have NO REMORSE whatsoever. Call me one of those anti-patsy no bullshit Democrats. I know this is disturbing as a thought, but I am not alone, as others feel the same way. Because to me and call me old fashioned, to be forgiven, true regret for ones acts, and making the effort to do so that (minus limos to schools, which if I were a parent, and Vick showed up, I would pull my kid out so fast), is the true sign of trying to be forgiven. In Vick's case, massive amounts of couch time with a shrink, becuase he is one sick twisted fuck. And still so apparently as he spins his story of his unfortunate situation. In Cheney's case, well he's a politician and leaders of the country get a free pass on war crimes, as it is now Obama/the fantasy middle world Democrats policy. Not fair, but who said the world was.

But in both cases we are dealing with Grade A/Tiffany sociopaths, and one obviously has a narcisstic personality disorder. Well skip that, they both do, but the fact remains, these are people that would tourture your dog, or lob a a country into war without blinking an eye. Oh, they DID!

So there is no real contrition. There is no reality there, except theirs. Well now maybe yours, as you have attached on to one to give that reality a pass, the other is bad. Guess which sociopath's reality that is.

[Le Taz Hot]

16. Anyone who tortures/kills defenseless

animals can no longer claim inclusion to the human race. That's not a "mistake," that's a sociopath.

[pecwae]

22. Just maybe

all the other sadistic motherfuckers seeing Vick skate and still rake in millions will figure they'll luck out as well.

[blueamy66]

28. cry me a $100M river

nt

Methinks that leaving a dog home while one works is a bit different than throwing them into a pit with another dog, just to fight, or hanging them up by their neck.

Hey, I love dogs to death. And I want to get one soon. But thanks to your post, I guess I'll just leave that dog in the shelter instead of adopting it....cause I work 8 hours a day.

:crazy:

[joeybee12]

50. And dog fighting has risen in the Philly area since his "rehabilitation"

and idol worship by the worst fans in the world.

[Cali_Democrat]

127. Are you saying dog fighting is rising in Philly because of Vick?

if you are, surely you have evidence of this.

[DCKit]

9. If he's a psychopath, we haven't seen nuttin' yet.

I'm not saying he is, but he's basically been (hugely) rewarded for bad behavior. A psychopath would see that as a license to get seriously creative with their next act.

On the other hand, how many others involved in dog fighting have paid the same price he did? He was punished more severely because of his celebrity.

Either way, Philly fucked up. This dude should be unemployable by any football team.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

32. no, he hasn't been rewarded for bad behavior

he is being paid for his performance/skill

i see no reason why he should be punished aside from his term in prison(tho it could have been a while longer). what you chose to do tho is your business, so boycott him, get others to do so etc etc, thats all your choice but legally/by society's norms his debt/punishment has been paid/completed.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bluebear]

12. 'Good for him!' - Fabulous.

[a la izquierda]

15. You obviously have never dealt with an abused dog.

My three dogs were discarded like trash. Luckily, they were never fought (they're not pit bulls or fighting breeds).
Animal abusers and child abusers are the scum of the earth.

[SammyWinstonJack]

19. -1

:puke:

[pecwae]

21. Fuck him.

But those worshiping at the sports altar would rather see dead dogs and keep shoveling money into the pockets of a cruel motherfucker.

[Logical]

31. You are WAY too logical for this thread!!

[hiphopnation]

129. +1

:thumbsup:

[Scuba]

14. The Koch's make that every 5 days. Each. Net. They're responsible for more suffering than Vick.

[Bluebear]

25. Fine, they're all vile. Better?

[Scuba]

38. Much. Thank you. n/t

[LanternWaste]

80. The one does not deny the other.

The one does not deny the other. :shrug:

[Le Taz Hot]

17. People need to show up at his games

with large, blown-up pictures of his tortured animals. Replace the idiotic "John 3-16" guys.

[HipChick]

20. Take him down off the cross already...

He paid his dues...people are more upset about this than say Charlie Sheen - who had all sorts of abuse against woman but still went on to become the highest paid actor on TV

[HelenWheels]

43. Charley Sheen kicked off his program nt

[Vinca]

23. It says something about our whole society that a vile person -

and that's the nicest thing I can say about Vick - can cash in while people who do good continue to struggle. Some say he's changed, but there is something so evil in a person who does what he did that I don't believe it's possible.

[MrScorpio]

26. Somehow, being a well paid football player negates the worth of his repayment for his crimes.

In this country many of us go out of our way to redeem and rehab wayward animals...

But when given the opportunity to do the same for another fellow human being that would be impossible to do.

No one should forget Vick's crimes, much less Vick… As I'm sure that there will always someone to make sure that he remembers what he did.

It's clear that some people think that no amount of money that he'd give to animal rehabilitation will ever be enough, neither remorse shown, or even any additional punishment wished upon him. Still, Vick must pay and suffer for ever and ever.

He could meet every single obligation made of him and much, much more and still that will never be enough…

Because, for some, their need for on going animosity can never be satiated.

Sure, he went to prison for heinous crimes against animals and now he's being rewarded for the use of his own God given talents on a playing field.

This is after he's completed his prison sentence, meeting the conditions for his parole and has paid more money than any us of could ever afford to for the sake of the animals that he's abused, not to mention the sake of other animals as well… He's going to take a portion of that sizable paycheck and give it away to help animals.

Do you think that he has forgotten what he's done and the price he's still paying for his crimes?

Do you think that his ruination is more important that his enhanced ability to pay for his crimes?

How would his downfall help animals?

I'm sure that there are quite a few people who have some suggestions to Vick about what he can do with his paycheck… After all, money is everything, right?

Still, people who still have to hold a grudge, no matter what, are those who have lost what it means to be humane, much less, rational.

What would it take to allow another human being who is doing what he can to redeem himself to do so?

If the answer is, "NOTHING for Vick", then the point is already moot, isn't it?

[qanda]

36. +1

Thank you!

[hifiguy]

65. Well said, Mr. S.

He served the time to which he was sentenced and has conducted himself in an exemplary manner since getting out of prison. Exactly what more could he do?

[NeedleCast]

98. Great Reply, Mr. Scorpio n/t

[Iggo]

132. Aaah.

Thank you.

:thumbsup:

[Name removed]

145. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[zappaman]

155. +1

Isn't the whole point of prison, rehabilitation?

[blueamy66]

181. No.

It is supposed to be, but it's not.

It's about punishment.

[zappaman]

193. That's not true

And even if it was, wasn't he punished?

[Blasphemer]

184. Excellent response.... thank you!

I am strongly in favor of animal rights and animal cruelty disgusts me. Nothing, not a dollar, not 100 million dollars, will change the facts of what Michael Vick was part of and what many people, unfortunately, are still a part of. However, there is such a thing as redemption. Not all criminals are capable of it but Michael Vick is one who has shown himself to be. I don't think he should be torn down because of having the ability to reflect, learn and grow. Many people anonymously engage in animal cruelty and are never called to atone for it. So, I have no problem with someone who has had to publicly atone for their sins. There are people will say that it's just for the money, to get his career back and nothing but an act. But, there have been many celebrities in various fields who would have the same motivations and yet never came close to even attempting true redemption. A child rapist such as Roman Polanski can receive standing ovations despite never seeming at all remorseful and engaging in mostly self-pity and I am supposed to decry Michael Vick for getting a second chance? Never. That said, as a proud native New Yorker, I will always root against the Eagles :)

[Logical]

30. He DID HIS TIME! This place is unbelievable!! This place whines all the time....

About extreme sentences for teenage robbers but want Vick locked up for life!

Unbelievable!!,

[Bluebear]

33. !!! @@@!!!! OHH!! And this place whines!!! All the time!!!!!

[Dogtown]

44. Did you win money

betting on his games or betting on his dog-ring?

I don't want him locked up for life.

I want him banned from football for unsportsmanlike conduct, illegal betting, and for cruelty to animals.

The legal system is done with him, he did his time. I'm just surprised that the Court of Public Opinion has forgiven this monster.



And, BTW, shame on you!

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SammyWinstonJack]

143. No. we have a loser.

:eyes: Playing the race card to defend/justify a dog torturer=loser.

[Iggo]

134. Ouch!

:fistbump:

[Dogtown]

141. Silly attempt to pick a fight.

Do you think I'm white?

:eyes:


Yes, I want him banned from playing football for life. Just like Pete Rose, another illegal gambler (but he didn't torture animals!) was banned from baseball.


You're hyperbolic straw-man won't stand, either. I said nothing about branding, that's almost as cruel as Vick's actions.

You've got nothing, but you want to stir up shit. Go have a nice cheney, & heckle me no more. You haven't the talent.

[polly7]

197. You're right, and just like so many other athletes have been banned

from the sport they love forever because of far lesser reasons.

[Dreamer Tatum]

147. For the WIN nt

[Critters2]

148. Banned from a livelihood. Just like every no-name convicted felon

who can't throw a football. Hell, there are McDonald's that won't hire felons. Get back to me when you're just as committed to the rehabilitation of every convicted criminal, not just the ones that win bets.

[Iggo]

178. I'm a no-name convicted felon.

What do you want me banned from?

EDIT: That's a rhetorical question, by the way. I'm just trying to illustrate that every felon's story is a personal one. You can make snap jusdgements over what you think should happen to us and how we should live our lives going forward, but in the end we are real people and we have to live those lives. And the fact is we do get better. We do learn from our mistakes and become better people than we were before. It sucks that we live in a country that seems to want every felony to carry a life sentence. Rehabilitation and redemption are real things, and they happen every day.

[Critters2]

195. I don't want you banned from anything...but not just because you can throw a football. nt

[muffin1]

70. Huge difference between teenage robbers

and TORTURING, MUTILATING, DROWNING, and ELECTROCUTING dogs. Jesus Fucking Christ.

Don't you have a Vick Fan Club meeting to attend?

[Logical]

123. Don't you have a PETA meeting to attack Obama for killing a fly?

[Liberal_Stalwart71]

89. I have a theory as to why this is. n/t

[ZombieHorde]

166. Robbery is not even close to being as bad as torturing dogs to death.

Vick didn't only have dogs fight to the death; he admitted to torturing them to death in other ways as well. His crimes were seriously disturbing.

[hifiguy]

192. There is not a jurisdiction on earth that agrees with your statement.

Whether there should be is a different argument I don't intend to start.

But the facts are what they are and have to be lived with.

[ZombieHorde]

199. Authoritarians and I rarely see eye to eye. nt

[undeterred]

34. Biggest piece of shit in the NFL- and thats saying a lot.

[madinmaryland]

35. Hide your Beagle! Vick is forever an Eagle!!

[Bake]

37. What Vick did was horrible. Of course it was.

And I'll bet he won't do it again. It IS possible that he has grown as a person. Isn't that what we, as progressives, hope to see in people?

Cut him some slack, until he does it again (if, indeed, he does). Or else admit that you're no better than the wingnuts you despise.

And there's NOBODY on this board who loves dogs more than I do. But maybe, just maybe, it's possible that Vick has been rehabilitated. People can grow and change. I'm willing to give him that chance.

Bake

[mfcorey1]

40. Amen to that. nt

[KurtNYC]

48. Maybe he will only torture and kill 2 dogs next time, that would be a change.

"Federal investigators, ...have revealed Vick personally killed at least seven of his fighting dogs by hanging or drowning. They also revealed Vick failed police polygraph tests in which he denied killing animals. And the federal paperwork said Vick decided to start his dogfighting ring just days after being drafted by the Atlanta Falcons in 2001."

http://www.wsbtv.com/news/18048882/detail.html

[Bake]

52. Obviously you don't believe in change or redemption.

Nice post, Hitler.

Bake

[LTX]

53. Put him in chains for life, eh?

After all, you've looked into his soul, and you can authoritatively pronounce it irredeemably evil. He is now and will be for the rest of his life a dangerous criminal. We know this, of course, because he's a negro.

[Bluebear]

84. "because he's a Negro" - wow

[LTX]

86. Any other explanation?

Why is the presumption rampant here that Vick cannot feel remorse, cannot be redeemed, cannot be forgiven? In no uncertain terms, Vick is being portrayed as sub-human, an animal. Why? Feels like a Klan rally. Do these posters know Vick? Of course not. Are they privy to his thoughts or emotions? Don't be silly. What they know is that Vick was convicted of a crime, and he's black. Case closed.

[Bluebear]

90. You do great injustice to black issues with your stance. Later

[LTX]

93. Sure I do. Because

the view that blacks are inherently criminal is not an "issue" in our society. How silly of me.

[SammyWinstonJack]

144. Second time that poster has played the race card in defense of that dog torturer.

Disgusting, isn't it?

[Bluebear]

149. 300 posts in 8 years & half of them defending this sadist

I get the picture

[LTX]

185. What picture would that be?

Would it be the picture of someone who works weekly at Star of Hope Mission with ex-cons who are, in fact, ostracized, spit upon, and hounded into homelessness by people like you? Why don't you come on down and ask them what they think of Vick?

[flvegan]

39. What he did was okay. At some point in his past, he was poor.

His culture was that way. Naturally, when he got a multi-million dollar signing bonus to play in the NFL, he started a dogfighting ring. Because he was poor.

Keep spinning it, Vick as your blind, idiot loyalists are eating it up. REDEMPTION!!11!

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. I'm glad for him, and glad to see the revenge mongers here crying bitter tears

Good for Michael Vick, and HAHA to you.

:rofl:

[cherokeeprogressive]

158. +1

[blueamy66]

182. And every defensive line is gunning for him.

hope they hurt him BIG TIME...like he did to those poor dogs...

[Bake]

45. Apparently some here don't really believe in redemption.

And they're just as hypocritical as the wingnuts they claim to despise. But they're just the flip side of the coin. Birds of a feather.

Bake

[Dreamer Tatum]

56. No, they believe in redemption, so long as you never, ever, ever make a living or enjoy a moment

of life after your redemption.

[polly7]

190. Sorry, there are some acts so terrible that those

who commit them should never be in a position to be touted as a hero for small children to look up to.

I don't deny anyone the ability to make a living, even a great living ....... but this, to being a role-model? Nah. 'When someone shows you who they are, believe them'. A heart and soul capable of the kind of atrocities he was responsible for and only stopped when caught, aren't changed by a little prison time and community service.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TBF]

47. While I wouldn't trust him around my animals (or children), I have no problem with the man

playing football. It's his job and he's fortunate to have a job after serving time. I don't care for PETA personally (though I actively support many other animal groups), but in this case I'm probably agreeing with them. Let him play football, earn a living, and speak out against dog abuse. Will he do it again? Probably less likely if we support him with his recovery. Throw him back on the streets and who knows ...

[Dreamer Tatum]

55. Uninformed, childish, silly, and misguided. Unrec. nt

[COLGATE4]

115. +1. K&R

[Romulox]

57. I'm disgusted by the apologists for this sociopath. Recommend. nt

[LTX]

59. I'm disgusted by the blood-lust and fervent desire for perpetual vengeance.

That, to any neutral observer, is the sociopathic behavior on display.

[Romulox]

60. Unfortunate choice of words for someone defending a serial murderer!

"That, to any neutral observer, is the sociopathic behavior on display."

As oppose to all of the ACTUAL murdering of animals, you mean? Go Eagles tho! :puke:

[LTX]

62. Why of course.

Big, bad, black athlete. We all just know that his "kind" are criminal to the bone, and must be put in their place. Redemption for me, but not for "them."

[Dreamer Tatum]

63. +1 nt

[Romulox]

66. RIght. Big. OK. Black. Fine. Sociopathic dog murder. Ooops!

This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard. NFL is like 70-80% black. But we're just picking on Vick--because of his RACE. Look at all the WHITE dog murderers we idolize! :eyes:

[LTX]

69. Not much else to explain the outpouring of vitriol here.

The man burned his life to the ground with an evil act. He returns to his profession after doing jail time and offering unprecedented contrition and assistance to those combating the subject of his crime. And four years later, the hatred flows unabated, with posts about his "next crime" and posters arguing in no uncertain terms (like you) that the man is incapable of remorse and cannot be forgiven because he is irredeemably criminal. In short, he is sub-human, an animal. If the shoe fits . . .

[Romulox]

71. We assume Vick may murder again because of his track record of being a sociopathic dog murderer

Not because he's black.

[LTX]

75. You've made your position clear, as have I.

I think it is evident that there is a great deal more at work in the professed desires to see perpetual punishment imposed on Vick. Something visceral in the reactions. I find it troubling, principally because the only apparent thing that the vengeance seekers actually know about Vick is his crime, and the color of his skin. From that, the prognosticators here infer inherent criminality, inability to feel or express remorse, irredeemable criminality. I think the message is rather clear.

[Dreamer Tatum]

77. It's crystal clear: criminals shouldn't be allowed to make money after paying their societal debt.

It's really that simple.

[LTX]

91. And you assume this of all criminals, of course. Hence you are for life imprisonment

across the board. Or perhaps the death penalty, since those who have "murdered" will always do so again. If that is your position, fine. It is draconian, and in my view contrary to civilized norms of judgment. But it is a position of finality, and its adherents usually cannot be dissuaded from it.

However, if that is not your position for all cases, then why do apply that standard to Vick?

[hifiguy]

131. The concept of "murder" is only applicable to human beings

under the law of anyplace I have ever heard of, and I am an attorney. Hyperbole of the first order. Fail.

[Romulox]

137. We aren't in a courtroom. So your point falls flat.

:hi:

[Name removed]

133. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[11 Bravo]

79. Murder is defined as the "unlawful killing of a human being".

Vick's actions were horrific and inhumane, but they were not "murder".

[Romulox]

100. That's the LEGAL definition, not the MORAL one.

:hi:

[11 Bravo]

150. If you would like a system of jurisprudence based on someone's perception of "morality" ...

I commend you to the Taliban (or Rick Perry).

[Dreamer Tatum]

152. +1 indeed

[Romulox]

176. Um, this is a *MESSAGE FORUM*, not a "system of jurisprudence".

:think: :crazy:

[Romulox]

177. Moreover, EVERY "system of jurisprudence" is based on "someone's perception of 'morality'"

What do you think it's based on? :think: :crazy:

[Dreamer Tatum]

61. DUers have some very biblical beliefs about redemption

the Redeemed is evidently supposed to walk the Earth in sackcloth, hungry and penniless, on display for easy ridicule by his social betters.

[Romulox]

67. As opposed to the "oops, I went jail. I guess I'm sorry. Now pay me! Go eagles!" crap? nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

72. Oops? He was convicted, publicly shamed, did real time, paid huge fines, and probation.

I could give a shit about the Eagles, but it's now obvious that his money is what is under your craw.

Why didn't we just stone him, like they do in Iran? I think you'd be great at that - getting out your personal
issues by brutalizing another person. Me? I'll stick with a more updated version of jurisprudence, where
criminals serve sentences and are allowed to move on with their lives.

[Romulox]

73. He only "repented" because he got CAUGHT. That's the point.

:hi:

[Dreamer Tatum]

76. Moving the goalposts yet again. Remember Tookie Williams?

There were people who wanted him FREED (not just clemency - FREEDOM) because he'd "repented" and was "rehabilitated."

Did he just show up in court one day, asking to be sent to Death Row? No, he got caught. And THEN he repented.

In your biblical fantasyworld, criminals wake up, see their wrong, and repent. Um, yeah, right.

[LTX]

94. And you know this how? n/t

[Romulox]

138. Because that's what ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Uh, duh? nt

[digitaln3rd]

74. Sociopaths never reform.

Vick can make all the lies he wants but once a sociopath, always a sociopath.

Congrats to the NFL for enabling the murdering bastard.

[Zax2me]

64. Know the real numbers - not even close to 100 million.

not that it matters to some, but the numbers reported are not the whole truth.

On the surface, it's 'only' 35 million for 'sure', 80 million potential.
Actual numbers, for next 3 years, he'll take home a little less than 5 million per year after taxes, creditors, etc.
Very low for a top rated QB.
Additionally, given his playing style and penchant for injuries, he'll likely see his prime years come to an end in the next three years.
Which means he will get cut and not see this contract through.
most likely, he'll earn enough to pay off creditors and have a little left over after his playing days.
100 million?
Not even close.
He won't win, either.
The Eagles will soon find out what the Falcons did PRIOR to his arrest.
His game, while amazing to watch, does not translate in the post season or into Super Bowl wins.
He never took ATL to the Super Bowl. Chris Chandler did, in 1998.
7-9 was his last record I think as a full season ATL QB.
He collapsed last year at end of his amazing comeback season.
good defenses figure him out, eventually.
There is a cap on his potential on the field.

[Safetykitten]

88. Well that info makes it so, well, acceptable. Thanks!

[Zax2me]

167. That wasn't my point, Mr/Ms Perceptive. Geez.

FYI I don't think he should be allowed in league.
My post was to point out that the 100 million is bullshit.

[LanternWaste]

78. Going into my third season of boycotting pro football.

I'm heading into my third season of boycotting pro football, and will continue to do so until Vick is out of the league.

Although I do fully realize that in the here and now my boycott will have absolutely no effect on his career-- much as crocodile tears have absolutely no effect on dogs tortured merely for entertainment... :shrug:

He has a very good PR firm it appears (French/West/Vaughan, Inc. out of Raleigh that also firms out to Coca-Cola and Wrangler jeans)-- close association with the SPCA, controlled public appearances and wonderfully attractive window-dressing certainly rehabilitated his image if not his character.

My skepticism of sacred cows is probably considered too vulgar and unacceptable for his fans though.

[Zax2me]

168. You are missing some really great football and entertainment.

I'm having a great time and can't wait until Thursday, just hope the speech does not interfere!

[LanternWaste]

186. I imagine that for many people, entertainment is tempered by conscience.

I imagine that for many people (myself included), entertainment is tempered by conscience. :shrug:

[Nye Bevan]

82. YES. Screw those liberal ideas about rehabilitation and redemption!

If someone commits a crime, pleads guilty, serves his time, apologizes, and goes back to his chosen profession, let's still vilify and ridicule him for the rest of his natural life!

Anyone convicted of a crime should never be allowed to work again!!!!!

[WI_DEM]

83. This country is athlete crazy--they can get away with almost anything as long as they win.

[Dreamer Tatum]

103. Yeah - boy, did Vick ever get away with it.

Prison, bankruptcy, humiliation...scot free.

:eyes:

[Safetykitten]

85. Well, as usual, the Vick defenders miss the point.

They throw everything they can at the wall hoping something will stick. From veiled racism to his paying his dues. He's ben rehabilitated!

Notice they never say one thing. They never go there. This one thing they cannot explain away.

Mr. Vick is seriously mentally disturbed person that never, ever had treatment for what in any sane society would be called being a really big piece of fucked up work. No shrink, no therapy, no anything. He is allowed to walk around and unchallenged offer up his story, his take on his unfortunate turn of events. Of course it is facilitated by sports writers that are so in love and awe of him that they just as well ask to date him, and the others who will for their own reason allow this very mentally deranged person to go about society doing the things that others with this dragging behind him would never be able to do. Where has the rehab been?

Poor Michale Vick. He did his time. Is that what it is about? Why not take some of the "safer" sociopaths out of prison and let them lecture at a grade school? What is wrong with that? Vick has always portrayed his dog fighting as if there was a door to door dog fighting kit being sold and he was scammed. He had to portray it this way. It was the only way he could possible pull this off.

There has never been rehabilitation. Not ever. I guess if you count meetings with your agent as rehab time, you could make that case. Sociopaths don't do rehab.

[MrScorpio]

92. I hear about his supposed sociopathy from a lot from people

Tell me, where did you find out that he was officially diagnosed as a sociopath?

Surely, something like that would have been addressed in his case by the proper authorities.

[Safetykitten]

96. Well , that would be in his endorsement contracts of course!

That would be in the first paragraph of his contracts.

Please, your slobbering defense is really not pretty.

[MrScorpio]

101. What do you mean, " that would be in his endorsement contracts of course"?

Where specifically in what contracts and by whom?

And how am I defending the guy by asking you for evidence backing up your assertion? I do understand your obsessive need to heap scorn upon the man, regardless of his present circumstances… That's an all too common reaction from someone who's doing their level best to establish their own moral authority. However, one should at least relay referable facts when they make such statements, correct?

You clearly stated as a fact that he's a definite sociopath. Something like that should be documented in a psychological exam by an accredited authority.

When I last checked, sports agents and players contract lawyers don't fit that particular qualification as per your reply.

[hiphopnation]

126. aaaaaaaand

crickets...

[NashVegas]

135. Guy Picks Up a Dog and Slams It Into the Hard Ground. Repeatedly. Until It's Dead

And you think this is a brain that re-wired itself?

Yeah, let's put Vick on Tops chewing gum cards for kids to look up to and value, shall we?

[MrScorpio]

139. I, for one, am not going to challenge your need to rehash his past crimes

After all, they were heinous in themselves, as was demonstrated in his trial where he was convicted and sentenced.

And of course, he's had the audacity of offending your sensibilities by showing up with a new contract at the start of football season… That's a very egregious crime in itself.

But I have some questions:

However I do wonder, how have you come to have such intimate knowledge of his current psychological make up?

And what, if any, crimes against animals has he committed since his release?

Did his conviction, sentence and probation already address that which you have brought up?

If not, what recourse would authorities have to heap additional punishment on him to the length of your satisfaction?

And most of all, how would punishing him again for crimes that he committed before and have been punished for reap benefit for abused animals today?

[NashVegas]

153. Yeah, I Know. Most Pro-Vick People Don't Want the Details Discussed In Public

So most people aren't aware that Vick personally body-slammed, electrocuted, drowned and hung under-performing dogs with his own hands and, according to witnesses, took pleasure from it.

Re-admitting Vick into the NFL with a 100m contract has, for many people, simply put the final nail in the crate for pro football watchers who were already past fed up with the military fly-overs, the M-80s going off on touchdowns, ludicrous tv commercials filled with sexual violence, amazing animated graphics(!), rapist quarterbacks and various other players who can't seem to refrain from gathering domestic violence and other gun charges.

Enough. The NFL has soooo jumped the shark.

[MrScorpio]

163. Aren't all of his crimes on public record?

I'm sure that anyone who wants to can seek that information out, no problem at all.

I'm also sure that no one is forced to watch any kind of professional sports on TV if they choose not to.

[NashVegas]

187. When The Public Knows As Much About Vick's Actions As Pete's Weiner, Get Back To Me

[MrScorpio]

188. If you're faulting the public for not having as much interest in Vick's crimes as you have...

How can Vick be blamed for this?

What more can he do to resolve this issue that you've invested so much passion in than he has already done, of which has been required of him?

Or is it simply more important for you the his downfall be paramount somehow?

I can imagine were he to come to a personal resolution, admitting the crimes that he's committed and done everything required of himself as restitution and more... Even to the level of a reformed champion for the rights of animals, you and those like you could never find it in yourselves to move on.

Nothing will ever be enough for you, because the hatred is just too comforting.

[LTX]

97. It's rather amazing, really.

The diagnosticians on this thread give every indication of having personally been involved with, spoken with, perhaps even lived with Vick for the last four years. What, other than their extraordinary personal knowledge, would give rise to such definitive statements of permanent criminality, guaranteed recidivism, and need for perpetual punishment? I am in awe not only of their deep and intimate personal study of Vick, but of their predictive, psychoanalytic powers (although it does have more than a bit of inquisition-certainty and a "he's a witch" farce to it).

[Safetykitten]

99. And you? From your perspective, he's rehabbed. From your close perspective of course.

[Dreamer Tatum]

102. We have a system of jurisprudence that tends to that. It's not our job. And if you're that worried

about Vick, then how do you sleep at night, knowing that criminals are released from prison every single day, to reenter society?

Some of whom killed actual people, which in the eyes of the law is a little more serious than killing a dog?

You must be a jumble of nerves, seeing as how people worse than Vick ever was are probably getting released from prison TODAY.

[Safetykitten]

104. And those released? Rehabbed right? Invite them over to your house. Oh wait...

they don't have a jockstrap.

[Dreamer Tatum]

105. No, according to you, they're sociopaths. All of them. Every single one.

I mean, Vick killed dogs, on which basis you call him a sociopath. So I can only imagine how you feel about murderers and rapists who get released back into society.

I might have one in my house, but we know you'll NEVER have one in yours.

[Safetykitten]

107. Just spitballing here, but I assume they did more introspection that Vick,

as Vick's time was used cleansing and spinning a story.

100 million for a bit of prison, all the while a team of helpers making sure you look great. Not a bad deal.

And just for a moment. How many rapists have been taken back with open arms in the sports world? More than a picked at random rapist.

[LTX]

109. Just "spitballing" indeed.

So do I take it that you are for life imprisonment in all cases, since the past is invariably prologue?

[LTX]

108. I presume that he has been. That is the operative presumption in our society.

When a person has been convicted, done his time in prison, and is seen fit to return to society, he or she is then given the opportunity to continue with life without perpetual branding or punishment. That notion has been sorely tested in recent decades, but it is nonetheless a presumption that is generally agreed upon in the interest of permitting redemption and fostering forgiveness. I would say it remains (though these days, it seems, loosely) inherent in our sense of justice and in the fabric of our civilization.

The burden is on you to demonstrate otherwise, and that burden is not discharged by speculative vitriol.

[Safetykitten]

111. Not my burden. He's a felon. Electrodes and all. Feel free.

[LTX]

112. So once a felon, always a felon?

You are, then, for life imprisonment in all cases, correct?

[Safetykitten]

113. Again, with the love for this man, nothing is beyond acceptance, Your love can continue.

Read above...sociopaths are us, and get back.

[LTX]

119. What an odd response to my question. More "spitballing"?

[Safetykitten]

120. You are just not worth the time.

[LTX]

124. Well, it is easier to post speculative slander and run, I suppose.

[Fumesucker]

146. Yes actually, once you are a felon you're a felon for life..

There are a great many things you can't do if you're a felon, voting is one of those things in a lot of states.

Owning a firearm is another.

Having a decent job unless you can really throw a ball well is yet another, at least in practice.

It's the adulation that Vick gets and will get that upsets a lot of people, not that he has a job, that he's being held up as a hero by a lot of people for being physically stronger and quicker than most people.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

125. good to see an old time DUer posting!

thanks for the insightful comment.

:hi:

[These Eyes]

130. I'm loving your responses.

Any mention of Michael Vick makes this place go ballistic. Progressives who don't believe in redemption -- who would have thunk it! The man is using his skills, as he should, to make a living after paying his debt to society. But I guess because his skills are worth millions is what sticks in the craw of some folks. And don't dare state the obvious -- the irrational outrage over his contract and his acceptance back into society is based in racism. But we all know that progressives can't have racist leanings. Really, how dare this black man have a life outside of prison?

[NashVegas]

165. We Just Watched a NY Congressman Get Forced to Resign

For going to far and screwing up in a simple online flirtation. Although his wife was humiliated, there was no loss of life, not intentional cruelty.

Larry Craig was forced to resign for hitting on the wrong guy in a public bathroom. Again, there was no cruelty or maliciousness of any kind involved.

Cut the crap.

[These Eyes]

175. What does that have to do with anything?

It is you who needs to cut the crap. You act as if Vick got no punishment whatsoever. He went to jail. As far as cruelty or malicious behavior is concerned, making unwanted sexual advances toward someone or sending photos of one's genitalia shouldn't be dismissed as "simple". Those elected officials paid a price for their actions, as did Vick.

I stand by what I wrote. I have yet to see a mention of either one of those politicians cause the furor that the mention of Vick does. I see no one claiming they are beyond redemption. It is clear that the outrage over Vick goes beyond the nature of his crime. Only his complete destruction would satisfy some folks around here.

I'm happy to see Vick has served his time and is turning his life around. If you want to wallow in your hatred, have at it.

[Ignis]

156. Have you never, ever heard of the DSM IV?

Because psychiatrists have--and if you're looking for the "proper authorities," that's who we're talking about here. The DSM is one of the primary reference sources for diagnosing disorders such as sociopathy.

So I challenge you to do the following:
1. Find a library.
2. Find their copy of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th Edition.
3. Look up "Antisocial Personality Disorder"--that's sociopathy, to you and me.
4. Study the behaviors that are considered strong predictors of this disorder.
5. If you somehow, magically, do not find "animal abuse" listed, let us know.

[MrScorpio]

162. I'll simply ask you as well...

Other than many of the armchair psychiatrists on here DU or elsewhere, who has officially diagnosed him as a sociopath?

Safetykitten has stated that Vick is not being treated. I'd like to know since when, if this is in fact the case and why hasn't he been treated, if whatever officials are aware of Vick's condition and are not acting accordingly.

As you have pointed out, sociopathy is something that can be specifically diagnosed by a professional. I don't imagine that just anyone with a handy-dandy DSM-IV can declare any other person a "sociopath" just by their say so, right?

It's not an unreasonable request to ask for someone's else source of information.

Your reply doesn't establish it either. Sorry about that.

[Ignis]

189. Psychology is a science, not a simple appeal to authority.

[Cali_Democrat]

114. You've diagnosed him? He's a sociopath?

You say he needs more treatment as well as a shrink? For how long, doctor?

[Safetykitten]

116. Bush blew up frogs. Don't worry, you have time to make a case for him.

[Cali_Democrat]

117. So that diagnosis can only be made if you kill animals?

When I was younger, I killed a grasshopper by stepping on it. Do I need therapy?

What about other crimes? Also, how long should the patient receive therapy?

Help me out, doctor. I'm not very familiar with the process.

[Safetykitten]

118. Sorry, no help from me for you.

[Cali_Democrat]

122. What about Vick? How long should he receive therapy?

You're the one who diagnosed him and said he needs additional treatment.

Have you seen his patient chart? Do you have access to his medical history, doctor?

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ignis]

154. Killing a grasshopper =/= attaching dogs to batteries and throwing them in a pool

:eyes:

[alcibiades_mystery]

161. Thank you Dr. Frist

I'm glad you were able to conduct your professional examination of Mr. Vick and landed on a well-confirmed diagnosis.

:rofl:

Here's a hint: 9 times out of 10, people use the term "sociopath" in a way that is, at best, pseudoscience. So you can scream "sociopath" all you like. For many of us, it just means that you are to be taken LESS seriously, since you are perfectly willing to provide a (dubious) psychological diagnosis for somebody you merely don't like. That's both ignorant and pathetic.

[emilyg]

95. May he have a lousy season.

[Cali_Democrat]

106. Congrats to you, Michael Vick

Yours is a great story of redemption and rehabilitation. I would also like to thank you for speaking out against dog fighting in a very meaningful way. As PETA mentioned, you have done more for the plight of dogs caught up in dog fighting than any effort they have undertaken.

You did the crime, but you also did the time and paid your dues. I would like to congratulate you on your new $100 million contract.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

110. k and r

[Better Believe It]

121. Little people? It's billionaire owners who are paying revenue raising sports celebrities.

I don't have a problem with sports figures, singers, TV/movie stars, etc., getting paid big bucks by billionaires in the entertainment industry.

[Zax2me]

169. Yes, yes. Remember 'rich pigs' (no pun) are the real enemy

Let's keep things in order!

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[polly7]

157. I agree with you. You can tell the soul of a man by how he treats his animals ..

and he's got one ugly, malicious soul.

[Skip Intro]

159. K&R. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

170. The two American cultures with the most horrible crimes are:

Sports culture and religious culture. Each of them has regular horrific scandals involving their most lauded and compensated professionals. Both cultures are also massively homophobic, sexist, and venal. I reject them both.

[U4ikLefty]

171. What if Vick has molested a child?

I wonder if the redemption chorus would be singing as loud

[Dreamer Tatum]

172. If he molested a child he'd still be in prison, brainiac.

But I'm pretty sure the most vocal anti-Vick crusaders would strongly prefer that he'd molested a child, as they seem less valuable than dogs.

[U4ikLefty]

173. No need for the insult. What if he got out after serving his sentence?

Your perception of Vick's "redemption" doubters is telling.

As are your hateful responses on this thread.

[Dreamer Tatum]

174. If he molested a child, no team would touch him and this discussion would be moot.

And I DEFINITELY stand by my suspicion that some people put animals well above humans in matters like this.
Could not care less what you think of it, either.

[LTX]

183. He didn't.

And your point seems to be that all crimes should be viewed equally, punished equally, and punished perpetually. Whether by life imprisonment for all criminals (after all, once a criminal, always a criminal), or by some method of ostracizing, branding, or deprivation of rights for life.

[A wise Man]

191. I'm very dissapointed at the Du'er and rethug like posters

I've read most of the post here and its very very disheartning to see that most of you are no different than the republicans that spout their vile hatred and racist views toward someone that has paid the price for doing something dumb and stupid. Never look at yourselves in a mirror....it might look back at you and you won't like what you see.You've weighed the difference between a black athlete for dog fighting against the RAPE of a woman by a white athlete. When the black athlete preforms his skills and get a handsome salary..YOU YELL SCREAM "KILL KILL KILL".

I don't understand you?????? Du use to be a sight that we all can come together and discuss the problems we have in this country and not be led by the rethug INVADERS that exist today. We as democrats use to think first and use the common sense god gave us all. You know the rethugs have very very little sense common or other wise....but you here have proven just how weak minded democrats are and how you have judged and rejudge again. SHAME ON YOU ALL.....YOU ARE JUST AS DIGUSTING AS THOSE THAT HATE YOU.

[hamsterjill]

194. Best Friends Network

When Vick has reimbursed Best Friends Network for all of their work, all of the monies spent, and all of the time spent by its volunteers to rehabilitate the dogs that he abused, then I'll give him some slack.

[Critters2]

196. +1

How often does he ask about the well-being of his victims?

[Fleshdancer]

198. Do you think Vick and Chris Brown hang out?

They can count their money and talk about how incredibly awesome it is to keep their fame after exposing their psychotic abusive behavior to the world.

For some reason they still have enough fans. I personally don't understand it and I can't look at either one of them without remembering what they did.