Stopped a Tea Partier cold

[rpannier]

Argument was over FDR's Presidency.
His first argument was the only reason why Roosevelt won 4 times was because of the war. I pointed out his election and next two re-elections was before the war.

But the big win was when he said it wasn't the New Deal and Big Government, it was the war.

I said, "You mean WWII.
The war where most men between 18-35 were in the Government run military.
The war where those same men were being paid a salary by the United States Government.
Where business hired people to work in the factories to produce the equipment that the US Government told them to produce and how much to produce.
Where the government provided ration books to make sure that the war was run as efficiently as possible and prevented people from taking more than they needed so everyone at home and in the field/on ship, etc would have enough to eat.
You mean that War?"

He shut up and just sat there nursing his drink.

[Bryan Buchan]

1. Nice Job

I wish more people would be as brave as you and speak truth to the idiots.

[liberalmike27]

80. "Yea Man, it isn't Keynesian Spending" they say," it was the war"

I've been trying to make the point on message boards for nearly a decades now that war spending is Keynesian. It's just the least effective kind. You might add "Imagine how much better it would have worked if we'd taxed the rich to that extent, and spent the money to improve America, instead of building things to blow stuff up, which ends the economic development." "Build a road, and you'll drive on it for 50 years." "Blow up a bomb, and it is done."

WW2 was the biggest example of Keynesian spending we've ever entered into, it's just a fact, and way to go man. You took the guy outside of his listen and repeat, comfort zone.

[akvo]

93. You don't understand Keynes or economics

You don't understand economics or what Keynes wrote.

The approach is to use govt spending to replace declining private sector spending. This is supposed to lessen the depth of the economic dip. The govt spending is deficit spending, not increased taxes. Increased taxes depresses an economy. Thats the mistake (go read your Keynes cheat sheet) with Hoover in 1932. If anything, tax rates should be lowered during bad economic times.

Then when the economy has turned around, the govt pays off its accumulated debt through increased revenue due to increased GDP and increased tax rates.

Or when the economy gets too heated, tax rates can be raised to cool things down.

Keynes advocated moderate government involvement and counter cyclical spending (go look it up), not wealth redistribution.

And you should go look at the raw income and wealth data on irs.gov. Its a huge file, but you can bring it into Excel and see for yourself - with no middleman to bias the data - what tax rate will balance the budget or solve the long term fiscal problems. I have done it, there is no level of taxation that will solve the problem. Take every penny the top 1% makes and it wont even balance this years budget. Tax rates have to be so high - and apply to all income earners - that the economy would collapse.

[Lint Head]

2. Excellent. I get so flustered with these misinformed people sometimes I can

hardly speak correctly or think of the right things to say.

[w8liftinglady]

3. EXCELLENT! well done!

[eridani]

4. A shorter version--

So who paid for WW II--the Tooth Fairy?

[rpannier]

5. I use that for the roads and bridges

Do you think the roads and bridges get built by the Construction Elves, like the shoemaker elves

[66 dmhlt]

52. Please tell me it was George Will, 'cause that a$$hole has tried ...

To claim for ages that FDR's New Deal did NOTHING to alleviate the Depression.

God, George Will is a sanctimonious asshole!

[rpannier]

63. George Will is a classic

In the eraly 80's he was a moderately conservative person who believed in protecting the environmet, was opposed to mining on public land and believed in regulating businesses
Over the years his positions have moved further to the right in order to stay relevant

[BlueMTexpat]

81. I never forgave him for sitting in on the Raygun debate briefings

that used Carter's stolen briefing book - and seeing nothing wrong with that.

Make no mistake; he may have been "moderately conservative" in the 80s, but he's always been a Thug at heart.

[pansypoo53219]

56. that would be the 90% on the top 2% AFTER the war

during republican eisenhower.

[progressoid]

6. The WWII meme is a common one for a lot of RWers.

I've heard the same argument (it must be going around in an email or something) and I said the same thing you said. Shuts them up real good! :evilgrin:

[rpannier]

7. It shuts them up because it reminds them that WW II was run by the government

Not Royal Dutch Shell, Standard Oil of (insert state here), US Steel, etc

[nxylas]

12. But most righties regard money spent on war as "good" government spending

They don't object to government spending per se, just government spending that benefits poor people, especially poor black people.

[kath]

48. BIngo - to them, anything that benefits poor black people should be cut immeditately, and in fact,

never should have existed in the first place!

[Enthusiast]

65. There's a good reason for that.

Because black people are undeserving. According to RW creeps.

[progressoid]

42. And...

We raised taxes to pay for it!

Oh Nooooo. :hide:

[jtown1123]

8. Yes. The War created government jobs. It's not rocket science, tea baggers n/t

[phleshdef]

9. Ah nice. I had almost the same conversation once with a self proclaimed libertarian.

Their whole point was that new deal government spending didn't get us out of the depression, the war did. I pointed out how domestic spending went through the roof during WW2 and that we don't need a war to do the same thing and how shameful it is that we need to be killing somebody before we are desperate enough to make a serious domestic economy growth investment.

[tex-wyo-dem]

40. Excellent reply!

Whenever a RWer pulls the "government spending and the New Deal didn't get us out of depression, the war did," I just calmly tell them that, yes, the war did finally get us out, but the war was nothing more than MASSIVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING effectively putting people to work!

[athenasatanjesus]

10. Perfect! WW2 only improved the economy because it forced the US to pool it's resources.

Conservatives rarely get that part.

[Aerows]

11. A hell of a lot of people

are still getting paid by the government, but they don't have a clue, since it's under a private corporation that rakes a shitload off of the top.

Contracting.

[bluedigger]

45. Nonsense.

I'm contracting. Just today a government coworker told me something didn't matter because I work for the Government. I told him no I don't, or I would get paid holidays, vacation time, sick time, and health benefits. Which I do not. I get an hourly wage and the comfort of a no notice layoff at the government's convenience, nothing more. I know exactly who's paying me. Their profits are through the roof.

[bigbrother05]

62. Exactly, the $ that would pay for your benefits are going in their pockets

As well as overhead/management costs and a "reasonable" profit. When they competed the work against the cost of a government worker, all those extras were added in to make sure there was a level playing field for competition with e private sector. Problem is that once they were in place, the government budget makers cut the worker slots so we can not go back to using in house workers. Am sure many of the contractors would take a few dollars less to get the vacation, retirement, and health benefits, but the bosses are making too much money and paying too many politicians to ever let that happen.

[BlueMTexpat]

83. Too true ...

I was offered a good job by the USG a couple years back because I have the specialized experience and background that were required for a specific job. But I am officially a retiree so the only way that the agency in question could hire me (at least this is what I was told) was through a recruiting firm that would pay me an hourly salary (for hours worked and nothing else). The recruiting firm's charge to the USG for doing this was nearly $60/hr above the hourly wage that I would be paid. Everything, of course, was to be paid by the USG.

What on earth do such companies do that justifies such an expense in such a case? If they were handling benefits or something, I could possibly understand, but all I could see that they would do was have me sign a contract and cut me a check once I turned in my hours worked. And then they would get lots of US taxpayer money for doing that, while I would be literally no more than an indentured servant, albeit a well-paid one. It's highway robbery, but once again, it is USG spending that is allowing such companies to exist in the first place.

Ultimately, things didn't work out because the job would have required me to return to the US and live here full-time. I like living where I am now (in Switzerland) and have since found a job more to my liking there - needs must, I'm afraid, even though I am a retiree, given the plunging USD. No one is raking anything off the top and I am my own person.

[Froward69]

13. Excelent!!! the Great Depression ended because EVERYONE was on the government dole...

[Historic NY]

34. It wasn't a hand out you worked for it...CCC, WPA & other projects including the arts...

a lot of public building were built, parks constructed fancy art work and murals made, in cliding the photographic record of America (think grapes of wrath) electrification , etc. etc...America went from "brother can you spare a dime" to work...government created jobs.

[Dr Fate]

14. Good job-so long as you dont try to tell Democrats to imitate FDR.

Great job telling the GOP how great FDR was- just dont ask centrist Democrats to imitate him- except on the government getting us into wars part.

[Dragonfli]

33. I agree and disagree, here's why:

I disagree that you can't tell Democrats to imitate FDR, Democrats are democrats because of the platform that still have many of FDR's principles in it.

I agree that you can't tell the DLC or third way to follow FDR's example as they are opposed to the new deal.

The point of our disagreement is really that I know that the DLC and Third Way are Republicans and not Democrats,
I see them as agents of a false flag operation and if you go to their think tank websites, all you will find is Republican Ideas dressed up as moderate Democratic positions, it is pure trickle down Reaganomics.

So no, you can't ask them to emulate policies that FDR used that have the added benefit of being the only things tried that work.
You also can't call them Democrats when they adhere to Republican policies and Ideologies, I may call myself a puppy, but I am still a hairless ape of sorts and not a canine.
And they are still Republicans no matter what they call themselves to get elected.

[kath]

49. "And they are still Republicans no matter what they call themselves to get elected". +1000

Man, you sure got that right!

[Enthusiast]

66. You are exactly right.

It's time someone said it.

[AtomicKitten]

15. LOL. Well done!!

[Blue Owl]

16. K&R

:kick:

[Deb]

17. Bravo!

I seem to remember Americans helping to pay for the war by buying US Govt. bonds. I can't imagine a typical teabagger buying US war bonds and freely offering significant personal sacrifices to aid our country during a time of war.

[rpannier]

18. They make the ultimate sacrifice

They paints DUMB-ya's name on their chests and parade around their university campus

[DeSwiss]

19. K&R n/t

[KurtNYC]

20. Was his drink Iced Tea? nt

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

23. More like a glass of STFU...lol (n/m)

[davidwparker]

21. K&R

[JDPriestly]

22. The war during which war profiteerting was prosecuted for the crime it is.

[kath]

50. Is that right? Wow another New Deal-era concept that should be resurrected - PRONTO!

[Beavker]

24. They are so brainwashed by Fox

That they don't even know what is best for them. It might include the Government, it might not. But STFU and listen Tea Bag morons!

[Initech]

26. Oh I so agree. Fox is nothing more than a brainwashing tool.

In fact the other day I saw a truck outside work that read "Not feeling sorry (o in sorry replaced with Obama logo) yet? Then you're watching too much (insert what he percieved to be the "liberal media") and not enough Fox News.". It was also proudly displaying a tea party bumper sticker. God damn them. :argh:

[Ricochet21]

25. GOOD FOR YOU! nt

[ThoughtCriminal]

27. Without the New Deal - We might not have won WW-2

Or at best still have been fighting it in 1947 or later.

The infrastructure that was built and the industries that were saved were essential when war came.

[hfojvt]

28. that's hilarious

it was the government run economy during WWII that got the economy going again.

Helped along, of course, by high marginal tax rates

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

29. Would present day America be able to gear up it's private manufacturing for war?

I'm talking about a total war, a world war, not a limited military adventure. The destruction of our manufacturing base and the loss of jobs overseas at the hands of big business is an issue of national security.

[cmd]

30. And the GI bill after the war sent tens of thousands to college

All paid for by the government.

[Remember Me]

36. a critical component of the prosperity of the 1960s

and the incredible rise of the middle class.

[WinkyDink]

84. That would be the 1950's.

[WinkyDink]

85. (Board hiccup.)

[Manifestor_of_Light]

39. The Republicans wanted low paid ex-GIs, not college graduates.

The G.I. Bill enabled my father to go to law school at night while doing rotating shift work at a stinkin' refinery. At that time if you had 60 semester hours of college, you could go to law school (which has always been 90 semester hours) and earn a Bachelor of Laws (LLB). Then in the 1960s they changed it so you had to have a bachelor's degree, before you went to law school, and changed the degree to a Doctor of Jurisprudence.

And my parents got a 4% V.A. loan to buy our house which cost $9,000, which was a dump, but at least we had a roof over our heads.

[dflprincess]

54. I took a history class at the U of Minnesota where the professor

(who told us he was a beneficiary of the G.I. bill) once speculated that it may have been the biggest mistake the Democrats made. His pointed out the irony that the G.I. Bill took a lot of people who may very well have wound up in trade unions and steered too many of them into business and that, because they wound up living better than they had ever imagined they would, they decided they must vote Republican to protect what they had.

It reminded me of my dad and his brother's never ending argument. My uncle had been in the CCC and eventually had a very successful landscaping business. My uncle turned Republcian. My dad did okay in a white collar kind of job, but stayed a Democrat (their dad had leaned toward the Farmer Laborites). We lived out of state at the time and would visit them once a year or so and sooner or later during those visits I would hear my dad yell "You wouldn't have what you have today without Roosevelt and the Democrats!"

[Selatius]

70. Sometimes people quickly forget those that helped them on the road to wealth.

It's a human thing, and perhaps there is a small grain of truth in what that professor speculated.

[kenfrequed]

31. Also...

The War where VP Harry Truman went around banging the drum against contractor corruption and profiteering. The starkest of possible contrasts to Cheney who enshrined and worshipped this kind of corruption.

Thomas Frank's book is very instructive as to the ideology and methods of the Cheney crowd. the mass pork sandwich give aways to the contractors is taking "The Wrecking Crew" as far as it can be applied.

[orbitalman]

32. K & R

[abq e streeter]

35. Outstanding.. Thank you.

[GETPLANING]

37. It also drives them nuts

when you point out that America allied itself with Socialist Russia and Socialist China to defeat right wing Germany, Italy, and Japan. WWII was as much a war of economic ideals as it was a war against imperialism.

[proud patriot]

38. well done

[BigGovtFan]

41. we need to start more govt programs like that again for the war effort.

:hide:

[LittleGirl]

43. Brilliant.

I'm going to remember that the next time someone says what that guy did and give your take on it. Thanks!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

44. He was drinking in the check-out line?

:)

[bertman]

46. WINNER and still champeen by a KNOCKOUT!! rpannier! Nice work. Rec. nt

[lucca18]

47. That was great.....Thank You. nt

[markpkessinger]

51. Precisely! ...

...WWII was nothing if not a stimulus package on a gargantuan scale. The fact that WWII did ultimately pull us out of the Great Depression serves, if anything, as vindication of Keynsian theory.

[SteveG]

53. LOL, well done!

nt

[bluestate10]

55. Hope you have a firebomb proof car. Those idiots love violence,

their brains can't win shit.

[VPStoltz]

57. The one that citizens were asked to finance with war bonds?

Instead of putting it on a credit card.

[akvo]

58. The New Deal and the WW2 "stimulus program" are not the same

I hope you realize the New Deal was not the same as spending during WW2. The New Deal failed, the WW2 stimulus plan worked. The difference was the New Deal was spending and manipulation planned by politicians who thought they were smart enough and honorable enough to know and do the right thing. They weren't and didn't. WW2 forced the politicians to spend the money on infrastructure, research, and innovation, all of which paid long term dividends.

Its not just about spending, either. Removing the 18-35 male segment of the population out of the civilian workforce freed up jobs, changed the culture by bringing women and minorities into the workforce, exposed people to other cultures (even if we did kill some of them) and ways of life, also played a major role in reviving the nation. People had a different attitude during WW2, they were united against a common foe, and nobody had to be forced to ration, grow a victory garden, volunteer, or sacrifice for the sake of the nations survival.

WW2 forced the nation to do things that could only be done in a national life and death struggle. No peace time stimulus plan can work the same magic.

[Deb]

59. I'm sure you realize this is not peace time

because forgetting our military in harm's way or minimizing American losses would be a perfect example of just how different some attitudes are today.

[akvo]

68. The military is engaged....

but this isn't even close to WW2. WW2 was a global war, there were over 12 MILLION Americans in the active military (almost 10% of the entire US population), over 416,000 US military war deaths in less than 4 years. Every single person in the US was personally affected by the war.

In the Korean War, the US deaths were near 54,000 in less than 4 years (around 128,000 US total wounded and killed).

Vietnam, 58,000 total US dead over 10 years (1955 when we first got involved, until 1975).

Iraq, Afghanistan, and War on Terror, combined around 10,000 military deaths in 10 years. About 1.4 million total active duty personnel and around 800,000 reserves. Not even 1% of the population in the miltary much less involved in combat. People see this war on the news, but most people are not really affected by it. Life goes on as usual for them.

Economically - which is the point - this war is nothing compared to WW2. If a stimulus the size of WW2 is required to be effective, then an effective stimulus is unreachable unless there is WW3.

[Enthusiast]

67. Democrats don't believe the New Deal failed.

My parents lived through that era. They claimed that the New Deal saved the nation. And, with the exception of bitter Republicans, and Republicans masquerading as Democrats, I've never heard a word against the New Deal.

[akvo]

69. Yes they do

My parents lived through the Depression as well, and they have great respect for FDR and teh New Deal. I respect their opinion and give it weight, but that doesn't mean I should blindly accept it.

Its obvious the New Deal failed, even Krugman talks about it as helping but failing to solve the Depression because it was too small a stimulus, and it took the massive spending program called WW2 to pull us out of the Depression.

And Republicans claim the New Deal not only failed but made the Depression worse.

Do some reading, talk to people, and expand your horizons.

And since when is blind faith in past dogma a requirement to be a Democrat?

[Celebration]

71. yes the New Deal was too small,

and WWII was big, and got us out of the Depression.

That is an argument for a MASSIVE infrastructure stimulus now, with government spending several magnitudes higher than the New Deal.

[Enthusiast]

73. Yes, I should embrace the Republican ideology and

start repeating the mantra that New Deal did not help get us out of the depression.

[akvo]

89. No you should not

But you should know the facts, have an open mind, and be able to understand what the opposite arguements are. An ideologue is bad whether its a Democratic or Republican.

[Enthusiast]

91. And you come in here with17 posts and

lecture me on how the New Deal did not help end the great depression and alleviate suffering? ALL my parents, grandparents and aunts and uncles all lived through the great depression, they all revered FDR and his New Deal. You expect me to embrace Republican revisionist history? I'm not buying what you are selling. Take a hike.

[akvo]

92. Wow, nbr of posts equals knowledge!

Wow, I didn't know the DU forum was the equivalent of a university education. And I thought it was just a place to goof off, an electronic water cooler for people to hang around and shoot the breeze. I guess a persons view of education reflects their intelligence.

It sounds like you should spend less time on your 1000+ posts and spend a little time actually educating yourself. Next time you want to log on here, just go to google and do some productive reading.

[WinkyDink]

87. No, Democrats do not. And WTH CARES what "Republicans claim"?? Visit Hyde Park some day.

READ the letters to FDR from grateful Americans.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skittles]

96. GET LOST

[Skittles]

95. akvo is a REPUKE TROLL

[lumberjack_jeff]

78. Bombs are not a superior form of economic stimulus compared to bridges. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

79. The new deal absolutely did succeed.

In 1933, the economy began recovering as a result of Keynsian policy and an alphabet soup of government programs including Social Security and Glass-Stegal. In 1937, congressional conservatives imposed austerity measures which created a new recession.

The military buildup beginning in 1939 was just disposable infrastructure.

[akvo]

94. No, read the history

The New Deal policies did some good things but did not end the depression, which was the purpose of the New Deal. In that regard, it failed.

Besides if it did suceed, why in 1939 did Morgenthau (Sec of Treas from 1934 through 1945, and definite supporter of the New Deal and FDR, and a primary reason we have social security) tell the Democrats on the House Ways and Means Committee (May 9, 1939) that the govt had spent massively but had as much unemployment as when they started, and had added a nassive debt on top of it.

[WinkyDink]

86. Yeah, yeah. More Right-Wing demonization of one of the greatest US Presidents.

[iamthebandfanman]

60. We are at war and should have the same policies as then!

50% excess profit tax!

[aggiesal]

61. I love stories like this ...

:applause: Bravo! :applause:

[Enthusiast]

64. Private contractors could have done WWII so much better.

:fistbump:

[avebury]

72. K&R

[mwb970]

74. I salute you for trying to convince a teabagger of anything.

I salute you once again for apparently succeeding!

:yourock:

[aquart]

75. Wowza answer!

[Butch350]

76. That's good - but he's probaly got a head full of F**ked Up lnformation.

[Hubert Flottz]

77. You should have gone on the remind him that...

Since WWII we have shipped most of the heavy industrial power we had that protected the USA from the Nazis and the Commies to other countries. That we have let our railroads, roads and bridges fall into disrepair. Did you remind him that our "National Security" starts right here at home?

How will we fight China if they turn against us some day and they won't sell us any steel or tennis shoes or flags or uniforms?

We have let stupid "EXPERTS" like Grover and Bush deliver up or country to the slaughter. The Free Traitors have sold us out.

[BuckIA]

82. Stopped a Tea Partier Cold, huh? Which did you turn on, WWE or NASCAR?

[BlueMTexpat]

88. I saw this too late to K & R so just wanted you to know

that I would have done so if I could have! :loveya: :applause: :woohoo: