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Another "Great Depression" on the way due to global austerity politics & conditions like 1929's?

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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 04:46 PM
Original message
Another "Great Depression" on the way due to global austerity politics & conditions like 1929's?

It'll soon be clear that I'm no economist. My studies were in science. In the way I've seen my neighbor's teen eyes glaze over when she has to learn algebra, mine did the same in economics. Too bad -- it's something I sure wish I had a better handle on now!

But I don't have to be an economist to know this: our "leaders" are setting us up for the next "great depression." I'm not just speaking about the US, I'm speaking about the leaders worldwide who are furiously implementing austerity measures, measures that affect the 95% of "real" people in these countries.

We have our very own Herbert Hoovers in all of these countries, including the USA. What do we call the next great depression, the one that's around the corner? Great Depression the Replay? Great Depression the Avoidable? Great Depression Redux?

Whatever we call it, we owe it in large part to the greed of the richest 1% worldwide; political "leaders" who kowtow to the richest 1% and their corporate overlords; organizations like the WTO that exploit workers, decimate the environment and quash dissent; trade policy disasters like NAFTA, which doomed both the American manufacturing base and American workers; failure of politicians to listen to a wide spectrum of economists, many of them Nobel prize winners, other than those who support the ruinous path we're on; and a complete and utter failure to learn from history.

I've been reading some of JK Galbraith's classic "The Great Crash, 1929." I admit I've only been able to read sections online so far -- I've ordered a copy of the paperback. But I have a clear enough understanding (I think) to assert the following:

The conditions Galbraith saw causing the crash & depression, and the causes for the depression's depth and longevity are present today and our "leaders" are marching us straight in that direction.

What were the 5 main weaknesses in our economy then and now?

  1. Income imbalances, with the majority of money concentrated in the richest 5% of the country. That meant that the richest 5% had to make up for the rest of the country when it came to investing and spending/consumerism. Obviously, that was impossible. Today, the concentration is even smaller, limited to the richest 1% in the US who, clearly, won't make up for the 99% who can afford less and less as workers & the middle class are increasingly starved by the greedy 1%. We see how austerity measures in Europe are impacting economic growth by focusing on cuts that impact the already strained middle & working classes and the poorest of citizens.

    • Rapid Declines in Manufacturing Spread Global Anxiety, European Economy Slows More Than Forecast as Debt Crisis Saps German Might
    • And we're seeing the growing anger of workers in all of these countries, where workers are the targets of these austerity measures: Workers in Europe Protest Austerity Measures, General Greek Strike Protesting New Austerity Met With Tear Gas
    • As we all know, our country is following the same disastrous path, with the same result: Faltering consumer spending to weigh on growth: Faltering consumer spending to weigh on growth, Wal-Mart Frets as U.S. Shoppers Buy Food and Little Else.
    • An article in today's Guardian says it clearly and succinctly in an article talking about stagnant European economic growth & reasons for it, with Germany now feeling the pinch along with other countries:

      This was entirely predictable, as the misguided austerity politics is beginning to bite and an unresolved debt crisis adds to uncertainty about the future. Let's remind ourselves of what the problem with austerity measures is. If countries that trade with each other are all cutting back at the same time, it is almost certain to have a dampening effect on growth. Leaving aside competitive currency devaluations for the moment – another factor in this game – such policies cut off all avenues to economic growth. Why?

      When public consumption and investments are cut back, private consumption and investment under current circumstances will not compensate for this. Many private households are still in debt and face economic uncertainty, and will therefore not spend enough to compensate for public cuts. Companies see there is a lack of demand for products and services and therefore have no incentive to invest. This leaves only foreign trade to have a positive impact on growth – also often called a beggar-thy-neighbour policy, as growth relies on other countries consuming more than they produce. But as most important trading partners are cutting back too, with the effects explained above, consistently growing through export increases is also very unlikely – even for Germany.


  2. Another of Galbraith's conditions was corrupt banking, including the Union Industrial Bank, leading to stock market maneuvers that were significant enough to cause the "mortal blow" in the stock market crash. He saw corporate structures of entities like holding companies & investment trusts

    "as contributing to a deflationary spiral due in no small part to their high reliance on leverage. Dividends paid the interest on the bonds in the holding companies and when these were interrupted the structure collapsed." Galbraith said, “The fact was that American enterprise in the twenties had opened its hospitable arms to an exceptional number of promoters, grafters, swindlers, impostors, and frauds. This, in the long history of such activities, was a kind of flood tide of corporate larceny." “The most important weakness was the vast new structure of holding companies and investment trusts.”


    We pretty much have a new generation of "grafters, swindlers, impostors, and frauds" and our very own "flood tide of corporate larceny." And we have a government that looks the other way. Instead of prosecuting these frauds, the leading fraudsters are given a seat at lawmaker's tables and woven into even the presidential administration. I'll add more on fraud later. Suffice it to say, this aspect of the 1929 crash is very much present today.

  3. Third, the bad banking structure. The weakness was manifest in the large number of units working independently. As one failed pressure was applied to another leading to a domino effect accelerated by increasing unemployment and lower incomes.


    Boy, does that sound familiar!

  4. Fourth, foreign trade imbalances. During World War I, the US became a creditor nation, exporting more than it imported. High tariffs on imports contributed to this imbalance. Subsequent defaults by foreign governments led to a decline in exports, which was especially hard on farmers.

  5. And finally, "the poor state of economic intelligence". Galbraith says that the "economists and those who offered economic counsel in the late twenties and early thirties were almost uniquely perverse" and that "the burden of reputable economic advice was invariably on the side of measures that would make things worse".


    Yet again, this condition sets off alarm bells! In 2003, 10 economics Nobel laureates & 450 other economists warned Bush et al that the dividend tax cut would contribute economic problems in the US, including increasing the deficit. They were ignored. 300 economists have again warned against the current economic policies in the forefront in Washington now. So far, it appears that they, also, are being ignored. And the vehement, loud tea party types have held so much sway in this current ruinous budget, Washington is holding itself hostage to these loud economic morons and may, in the end, take all of us down with the sinking ship because of it.

    Back to the issue of fraud & corruption. The rampant corruption we're seeing in the corporate world, coupled as it is with the political world in a way that has the two more tightly coiled together than I recall ever seeing before, the failure of the federal government to route out the fraud and, instead, minimizing it and levying small, token fines and with the coddling we see Washington doing of the fraudsters (e.g.,see: Krugman, Letting Bankers Walk) are all contributing to conditions similar to those in the 1920s, according to some prominent economists.

    A number of prominent economists assert that it was fraud that led to the "great depression," the kind of fraud we're seeing today. (From Washington's Blog, following their guidelines to post whole articles) and have further weighed in to urge the prosecution of the banksters & Wall Street'ers who committed fraud, saying that trust in the system and in the rule of law is essential to any true recovery:


    As economists such as William Black and James Galbraith have repeatedly said, we cannot solve the economic crisis unless we throw the criminals who committed fraud in jail.


    And Nobel prize winning economist George Akerlof has demonstrated that failure to punish white collar criminals - and instead bailing them out- creates incentives for more economic crimes and further destruction of the economy in the future.


    As well as creating a complete lack of trust among regular citizens for banking and the entire American economic system.

    Nobel prize winning economist Joseph Stiglitz just agreed. As Stiglitz told Yahoo's Daily Finance on October 20th:

    This is a really important point to understand from the point of view of our society. The legal system is supposed to be the codification of our norms and beliefs, things that we need to make our system work. If the legal system is seen as exploitative, then confidence in our whole system starts eroding. And that's really the problem that's going on.

    ***

    A lot of the predatory practices in automobile loans are going to be able to be continued. Why is it OK to engage in bad lending in automobiles and not in the mortgage market? Is there any principle? We all know the answer to that. No, there's no principle. It's money. It's campaign contributions, lobbying, revolving door, all of those kinds of things

    ***

    The system is designed to actually encourage that kind of thing, even with the fines




    Robert Shiller - one of the top housing experts in the United States - says that the mortgage fraud is a lot like the fraud which occurred during the Great Depression. As Fortune notes:

    Shiller said the danger of foreclosuregate -- the scandal in which it has come to light that the biggest banks have routinely mishandled homeownership documents, putting the legality of foreclosures and related sales in doubt -- is a replay of the 1930s, when Americans lost faith that institutions such as business and government were dealing fairly.


    The former chief accountant of the S.E.C., Lynn Turner, told the New York Times that fraud helped cause the Great Depression:

    The amount of gimmickry and outright fraud dwarfs any period since the early 1970's, when major accounting scams like Equity Funding surfaced, and the 1920's, when rampant fraud helped cause the crash of 1929 and led to the creation of the S.E.C.


    Economist Robert Kuttner writes:

    In 1932 through 1934 the Senate Banking Committee, led by its Chief Counsel Ferdinand Pecora, ferreted out the deeper fraud and corruption that led to the Crash of 1929 and the Great Depression.


    Similarly, Tom Borgers refers to:

    The 1930s’ Pecora Commission, which investigated the fraud that led to the Great Depression ....


    Professor William K. Black writes:

    The original Pecora investigation documented the causes of the economic collapse that led to the Great Depression. It ... established that conflicts of interest and fraud were common among elite finance and government officials.

    The Pecora investigations provided the factual basis that produced a consensus that the financial system and political allies were corrupt.


    Moreover, the Glass Steagall Act was passed because of the fraudulent use of normal bank deposits for speculative invesments. As the Congressional Research Service notes:

    In the Great Depression after 1929, Congress examined the mixing of the “commercial” and “investment” banking industries that occurred in the 1920s. Hearings revealed conflicts of interest and fraud in some banking institutions’ securities activities. A formidable barrier to the mixing of these activities was then set up by the Glass Steagall Act.


    Economist James K. Galbraith wrote in the introduction to his father, John Kenneth Galbraith's, definitive study of the Great Depression, The Great Crash, 1929:

    The main relevance of The Great Crash, 1929 to the great crisis of 2008 is surely here. In both cases, the government knew what it should do. Both times, it declined to do it. In the summer of 1929 a few stern words from on high, a rise in the discount rate, a tough investigation into the pyramid schemes of the day, and the house of cards on Wall Street would have tumbled before its fall destroyed the whole economy. In 2004, the FBI warned publicly of "an epidemic of mortgage fraud." But the government did nothing, and less than nothing, delivering instead low interest rates, deregulation and clear signals that laws would not be enforced. The signals were not subtle: on one occasion the director of the Office of Thrift Supervision came to a conference with copies of the Federal Register and a chainsaw. There followed every manner of scheme to fleece the unsuspecting ....

    This was fraud, perpetrated in the first instance by the government on the population, and by the rich on the poor.

    ***

    The government that permits this to happen is complicit in a vast crime.




    As James Galbraith notes:

    The original sin of Obama's presidency was to assign economic policy to a closed circle of bank-friendly economists and Bush carryovers. Larry Summers. Timothy Geithner. Ben Bernanke. These men had no personal commitment to the goal of an early recovery, no stake in the Democratic Party, no interest in the larger success of Barack Obama. Their primary goal, instead, was and remains to protect their own past decisions and their own professional futures.


    And now, the administration, rather than standing up to Republicans and fighting hard for the Americans he promised to represent, has joined the Republican disastrous economic policy frame, focusing on deficit reduction rather than jobs & economic stimulus.

    Robert Reich, talking to people in the administration, says that there has been a deliberate decision to focus on the wrong issues, knowing that they’re the wrong issues:

    So rather than fight for a bold jobs plan, the White House has apparently decided it’s politically wiser to continue fighting about the deficit. The idea is to keep the public focused on the deficit drama – to convince them their current economic woes have something to do with it, decry Washington’s paralysis over fixing it, and then claim victory over whatever outcome emerges from the process recently negotiated to fix it. They hope all this will distract the public’s attention from the President’s failure to do anything about continuing high unemployment and economic anemia.


    Who knows, maybe Richard Clark's take is as legit an explanation as any:

    In a nutshell, what it says is that the world is being prepared for the kind of "neo-feudalism" that these banksters (intent on ever more completely becoming our masters and lords) intend to implement. And so it is that America is in the early stages of being subjected to the same type of plundering as Greece and Ireland.


    No, I don't think the Obama administration is purposely joining with the corporatocracy to cause conditions for American workers to be begging for jobs under any condition. But their approach to this budget fight sure feeds into the likelihood that will come to pass.

    Robert Reich, talking to people in the administration, says that there has been a deliberate decision to focus on the wrong issues, knowing that they’re the wrong issues:

    So rather than fight for a bold jobs plan, the White House has apparently decided it’s politically wiser to continue fighting about the deficit. The idea is to keep the public focused on the deficit drama – to convince them their current economic woes have something to do with it, decry Washington’s paralysis over fixing it, and then claim victory over whatever outcome emerges from the process recently negotiated to fix it. They hope all this will distract the public’s attention from the President’s failure to do anything about continuing high unemployment and economic anemia.


    Our president is actively taking this course, knowing it's the wrong course? WTF?!!

    Corporate influence has become so entangled in Washington policies, it's tough to tell when corporate desires and Washington policies are separate. Clearly in recent history, they are not separate. So, do we have the corporatocracy truly taking over and urging economic policies that will, in the end, create a feudal class over which corporations and the wealthy have far more power than they do now? A class of people so desperate for jobs they'll soon join nations that have, essentially, a slaving class working under terrible conditions for low wages with no benefits? It's hard not to believe that when you look at current corporate practices, government policies that more and more push toward privatization of everything Americans need to live and succeed -- education, wages, rights, health care, retirement, housing, and on and on. We had a Democratic president suggest one solution to the housing glut was for the wealthy to buy up foreclosed properties and rent them back to American workers!!!!

    Welcome to feudal America!

    But conspiracy theories are doomed to kill any good arguments about our current state and what might happen should America go the way of Europe & focus mostly on austerity. I believe based on everything I've read by rational economists (including all those Nobel laureates), it'll be welcome to Great Depression Redux, coming soon to a neighborhood near you courtesy of national & international politics, the WTO, and the new policy determiners, the corporatocracy. What follows could be truly horrifying for all but the richest 1-10%.

    (All emphases were in the originals.)






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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
1. With all the farm-country common sense being floated around
by DC politicians who've suddenly found rural America...

Hows come no one points out something every hayseed knows:

DURING A DROUGHT YOU'VE GOT TO WATER THE GARDEN OR CONDEMN IT TO DIE.



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abelenkpe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. +1000 nt
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saras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. Yep...
...and if you're getting paid by the government NOT to grow that garden, and you're growing it illegally and selling it under the table, and you get caught...

you're probably going to condemn it to die.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Proud to be K & R number four. n/t
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 04:57 PM
Response to Original message
3. As far as the writing of this OP
By a self professed, non-economist - you have offered many very good points to ponder.

And starting with Galbraith is a good place to start.

I especially like

]When public consumption and investments are cut back, private consumption and investment under current circumstances will not compensate for this. Many private households are still in debt and face economic uncertainty, and will therefore not spend enough to compensate for public cuts. Companies see there is a lack of demand for products and services and therefore have no incentive to invest. This leaves only foreign trade to have a positive impact on growth – also often called a beggar-thy-neighbour policy, as growth relies on other countries consuming more than they produce. But as most important trading partners are cutting back too, with the effects explained above, consistently growing through export increases is also very unlikely – even for Germany.



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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 05:23 PM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent work
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
7. Your eyes may have glazed over once upon a time but it seems like you have a handle on the
principles now and have given a lot to chew on here. Great work.
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 08:01 PM
Response to Original message
8. Wow, thanks for the nice comments!
I noticed I left out a couple of links -- I'll come back tomorrow to insert them -- bed calls!



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HCE SuiGeneris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-16-11 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. Great post,
Thank you for the info and effort.
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pecwae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
10. This is the kind of post that truly belongs on Greatest.
Thanks for the intense work. You've helped me to understand a little more about a very complex subject.
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Le Taz Hot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 07:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. . . .
:applause: Excellent post! K & R.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
12. Don't mean to rain on anyone's parade here, but words like
Edited on Wed Aug-17-11 08:15 AM by coalition_unwilling
'recession' and 'depression' have specific meanings when used by economists.

A 'recession' occurs when there are two or more consecutive fiscal quarters of negative GDP growth. The decline in GDP each quarter can be minuscule but the sole criterium is that the negative growth occur in two or more consecutive quarters.

A 'depression,' by contrast, occurs when there is an aggregate shrinkage in GDP over an indeterminate amount of time of more than 10%. That decline in GDP could take place over 1 year, over 5 years or over 10 years. But a 10% decline in GDP is an absolute condition for a 'depression.'

By those definitions, we are not even in a recession any longer, as there have been more than 2 consecutive quarters of growth in GDP since the last recession officially ended in 2009. (Granted, the growth has been laughably minuscule and hardly robust but still GDP has been growing.) We are nowhere near a depression (where GDP must shrink 10%).

There are a number of programs (enacted during and after the New Deal) that function to sustain domestic demand. Unemployment insurance (of which I am a current recipient) is but one of these programs. The net effect of these programs will probably ensure that the U.S. economy never again sees a 'depression.' That is small consolation to the long-term unemployed to whom this current anemic recovery hardly feels like a recovery, but it does mean that, even should the economy experience a double-dip recession (as I think is becoming more likely heading into 2012 elections), the economy will manage to limp along at depressed levels but without crossing the technical threashold of a depression.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. If a number comes from the
gov't, I tend to disagree with it. The way the stats have been 'configured' over the years has changed. And I don't believe the unemployment figures either. And the jobs that are being created are crappy $8 to $10/hour jobs.

Lots of us have been living The Greater Depression for a long time now. Do you go to the grocery store? Haven't you seen the price of everything escalate??? Have wages increased?? NO.

I don't care what the hell the gov't #s say. Economics is NOT a hard science by any means. Most economists aren't worth sh*t. Maybe Roubini.

And don't forget how all of the Accounting Standards have changed....lots of 'off the book' stuff when it comes to derivatives.

Go read ZeroHedge.com....quite illuminating.

I tell the gov't when I'm living in The Greater Depression....they don't tell me. Geez, at least the Russians knew Pravda was lying to them. Americans are naive.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Your post reminds me of lines from that famous Simon and Garfunkel song "The Boxer": "Still
a man hears what he wants to hear\And disregards the rest."

On a serious note, there's really no need for language if words do not have generally agreed-upon meanings. Economists generally agree that you cannot have a depression by definition if GDP is growing. You can have stagflation, you can even have recession, but you cannot have depression.

I have read and continue to read ZeroHedge and other sites of similar ilk. Even Tyler Durden (editor of ZeroHedge) would not say that we are in a depression right now.



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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. How do you know w/
Edited on Thu Aug-18-11 07:03 PM by femrap
Tyler would think?

How'd you like the market #s today?

You must have a job....so no depression for you. You must have a roof over your head and steak for dinner. No depression for you.

lucky lucky you....so smug w/ all you $$.

eta: wonder if you'll ever learn the meaning of hunger.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. At first, I considered alerting the mods about your violation
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 01:25 AM by coalition_unwilling
of DU rules prohibiting personal attacks ("smug").

Then I thought, why bother? So welcome to my ignore list.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. That's a shame....now you will miss
the info from the dude who posts at Zero Hedge all the time (Phoenix Capital)...This is from his daily newsletter and he sees the Depression...one could infer that Tyler agrees w/ him since he posts so often on the site. But you go ahead and tattle on me or ignore me....you certainly like rules...very rigid in thinking and closed to how others may see the world. You'd make a very good soldier. buh bye.


August 19, 2011

Think the Crisis is Over? Think Again!

As much as the mainstream financial media likes to pretend that the financial crisis is over, unfortunately it isn't. In fact, what's going to happen next will very likely make 2008 look like a joke.

There is one simple reason for this: the "Fed" safety net that pulled the markets back from the brink is gone.

Given that the financial system is now more leveraged than during the Tech Bubble, that mutual funds are more heavily invested in stocks than at any point in the last 40 years (hello redemptions), that the derivatives market has not been reined in, that the global economy is once again turning sharply downward, that the EU and European banking system are collapsing, that the US economy is now clearly in a double dip (within the confines of an ongoing DE-pression), and that China is heading into a hard landing... the fact that the Fed will not be able to do much to stop the Crisis should have everyone freaking out.
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tpsbmam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Actually, here's what Krugman had to say about being in an early 3rd major depression
We are now, I fear, in the early stages of a third depression. It will probably look more like the Long Depression than the much more severe Great Depression. But the cost — to the world economy and, above all, to the millions of lives blighted by the absence of jobs — will nonetheless be immense.

And this third depression will be primarily a failure of policy. Around the world — most recently at last weekend’s deeply discouraging G-20 meeting — governments are obsessing about inflation when the real threat is deflation, preaching the need for belt-tightening when the real problem is inadequate spending.

In 2008 and 2009, it seemed as if we might have learned from history. Unlike their predecessors, who raised interest rates in the face of financial crisis, the current leaders of the Federal Reserve and the European Central Bank slashed rates and moved to support credit markets. Unlike governments of the past, which tried to balance budgets in the face of a plunging economy, today’s governments allowed deficits to rise. And better policies helped the world avoid complete collapse: the recession brought on by the financial crisis arguably ended last summer.

But future historians will tell us that this wasn’t the end of the third depression, just as the business upturn that began in 1933 wasn’t the end of the Great Depression. After all, unemployment — especially long-term unemployment — remains at levels that would have been considered catastrophic not long ago, and shows no sign of coming down rapidly. And both the United States and Europe are well on their way toward Japan-style deflationary traps.

More at the link: The Third Depression.



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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Much as I like, admire (and generally agree with) Krugman, on this
question he's substituting rhetoric for reality. Even Krugman admits that the recession ended in July 2009. So, pray tell, how can you be in a 'depression' (as economists use the term), if the recession has ended and GDP is again growing (albeit by laughably minuscule amounts).

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 02:51 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. You're kidding right? We're in a depression --- !! And probably have been since
at least this time last year when an article quoting Obama referring

to it as "depression" appeared on Yahoo --

Scrubbed before I could pick it up and replaced with "recession" --


Economy is manipulated -- we've had a financial coup ---


Other than trading with seashells an economy is and can be manipulated --

See Catherine Austin Fitts - YouTube --
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. I did not invent the meanings of the terms economists use. Economists
did.

Are you disputing that GDP has been growing (albeit quite anemically) since July 2009? If not, then there is no way we are in a 'depression' as economists use the term.

Put simply, a depression means GDP is shrinking (getting smaller) not growing (getting larger). GDP has been growing (getting larger) since July 2009.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. The terms are as BS as every other bit of "Newspeak" -- or like the CPI ...
or unemployment records!!

Here's another statistic -- production in US has risen by 35% over the last

decade -- wages have been stagnant during that same period!!


Try to look at things from a higher perspective --


Try some James Galbraith --
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. In rejecting the terms as 'BS,' are you also turning your back on
the social science (economics) that spawned their meanings in the economic context? Come to think of it, have you ever had taken any course in econ?

I have read Galbraith. I've read Krugman, Stiglitz and others and consider myself an unrepentant Keynesian. But I have also had college coursework in econ (micro, macro and international) and understand the terms I use. I choose my language carefully for that reason.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #28
34. I am rejecting "Newspeak" as BS in whatever area it falls -- !!!
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 03:41 PM by defendandprotect
Economics are meaningless in the face of nature --

And, I'm sure you know the planet and peoples have long survived without

Wall Street and corporations and their manipulated economics often based on

exploitation on top of exploitation -- such as in the oil arena --



Rubrics of education are often blocks to pathways of knowledge --

I recall someone commenting on Betty Friedan and how she had the insight and

courage to take on Freud, unlace women from him, and put him in the dumpster.

It was attributed to the fact that she wasn't trained in the rubrics of

psychology/psychiatry --


50% of our GPs want out of the system --

Major numbers of our lawyers have moved on to different work -

Because the enforced corporate-think on these systems and what corporate-universities

now teach leave them only to follow a course which they can see is not healthy for

the nation.




Here's an old saying --

"You can educate a fool, but what you end up with an educated fool" --


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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Here's another old saying: "A little learning is a
dangerous thing" (from Alexander Pope's 'An Essay on Criticism').

I note you do not dismiss economics as a social science. Or maybe you do. Difficult to tell.

Do you believe the scientific method is a valid way to uncover new knowledge?


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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. "Idleness is the beginning of all wisdom" -- quite different from "learning"
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 08:33 PM by defendandprotect
when it is taught by universities sponsored by corporations --

and now MIC!

Just look at the history of Rhodes --

and other wealthy sponsors -- especially influence over our universities which teach economics!

And certainly there is no "ethics of economics" taught in our universities!!

Our economics are more a situation calling for financial criminal investigation.


Science is merely and only observation of nature --

except when it occurs in the corporate world where the designs upon science have

different motives than gaining knowledge to share with the world --


When we destroy nature, we are destroying science --





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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. I read Galbraith's book a long
time ago...I should reread. Thx for the summary.

I like 'The Greater Depression' myself.
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aint_no_life_nowhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
15. I fear that war could follow the coming depression
If China's markets dry up because of a great slowdown in Europe and the United States, it could put them on the edge of revolt. Already, there are many stories about bombings, riots, demonstrations and unrest in China, as inflation rises dramatically over there. How could some governments respond to rioting in the streets? Waving the flag and going to war?
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
16. We share the same five weaknesses with one additional crisis now.
The depletion of natural resources in this country is astronomical now compared to the availability 80 years ago. In addition to the economic ramifications of global production of conventional oil http://transitionvoice.com/2010/11/its-official-peak-oil-came-in-2006/">peaking in 2006, we also have to deal with the destruction of the environment and the http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/174019/20110704/warm-ocean-ice-melt-sea-level-arizona.htm">accumulating effects of Global Warming due to our over-consumption of fossil fuels, which was not a concern during the Great Depression.
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. kick nt
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butterfly77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-17-11 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
19. And the republiCONS want to make it worse..
when the shit hits the fan where will they run,where will they hide.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. His son -- James Galbraith -- would make a good challenger to Obama 2012 --!!!
James K. Galbraith - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Background|Career|Writings|Humanitarian initiativesGalbraith is the son of renowned economist John Kenneth Galbraith and Catherine (Kitty) Atwater Galbraith ... James K. Galbraith's home page, with an archive of his papers ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_K._Galbraith - Cached
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
24. great OP, bookmarked for later
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
26. There is no better explanation of the "deep background"
of the current situation than Naomi Klein's "The Shock Doctrine." What has been happening in the US for the last ten years is the result of a plan laid down in the University of Chicago's econ department 50-60 years ago principally by Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman. The end game is to reduce the world, or as much of it as possible, to a modern version of feudalism/oligarchy/plutocracy.

If humanity survives the next century, Milton Friedman will be recognized for what he was - a monster on the order of Pol Pot or Mao, the difference being that he came from the opposite end of the ideological spectrum. All were purist, "day-oners" who were determined to force their version of utopia on the world regardless of the costs in lives. Pure ideologues with all the answers are the most frightening and dangerous people on earth.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-18-11 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
30. It will be known as the "The Greater or Greatest Depression".
Edited on Thu Aug-18-11 07:22 PM by roamer65
It won't be deflationary, it will be inflationary as central banks attempt massive QE to try to stop it, but to no avail.
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DU GrovelBot  Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
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