Why are people unable to distinguish between victim blaming

[LadyLeigh]

and practical advice for dealing with a dangerous environment?

As far as I understand, the cop who made the remark about not
dressing sexy in order to not get raped, which set off the
slut walks, was teaching rape-avoidance classes. It seems like
a reasonable thing to say in such a class, since the premise
of the whole class is that I should personally do something, anything,
to avoid being raped.

Additional advice could also be: Learn Krav Maga. Carry mace. Don't date
jocks. When you are alone in the house, sleep with a baseball bat under
your bed.

And if all else fails: Go for the eyes.

The question of guilt and blame is entirely another one. Responsible
people recognize that there is a hostile world out there that will
turn you into a victim if you are not careful. Doesn't mean that
the perpetrators aren't at fault, or aren't the ones who should be
punished, provided it is ever possible to bring them in.

[PeaceNikki]

1. Read this

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/03/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue

Especially this part:
Kats said one underlying problem is that college campuses tend to focus on the prevention of rape and sexual violence. "But the term prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Katz said. "These programs focus on how women can reduce their chances of being sexually assaulted. I agree that women benefit from these education programs, but let us not mistake this for prevention."

"If a woman has done everything in her power to reduce her risk, then a man who has the proclivity for abuse or need for power will just move on to another woman or target," Katz added. "It's about the guy and his need to assert his power. And it's not just individual men, it's a cultural problem. Our culture is producing violent men, and violence against women has become institutionalized. We need to take a step back and examine the institutionalized polices drafted by men that perpetuate the problem."

[jtown1123]

5. +1 it's really sad we have a culture where potential victims have to control what their

aggressors do. Scary.

[seabeyond]

11. a while ago, this was addressed. instead of what can women do to reduce risk... what can men do to

prevent.

don't rape.

but there was a list of things and i liked that perspective too.

i think we can approach it from both directions.

[PeaceNikki]

16. And I disagree.

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/03/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue
Katz points out a pattern that has evolved regarding how the media uses passive voice and sentences when reporting gender violence. Using a board in the front of the room, Katz helped make his point by providing the audience with a concrete exercise to illustrate the power of passive voice (see below).

John beat Mary. (active)

Mary was beaten by John. (passive)

Mary was beaten. (passive)

Mary was battered. (passive)

Mary is a battered woman. (active)

"John has left the conversation long ago, while Mary evolves into the active victim," Katz said. "This evolution of victim-blaming is very pervasive in our society, because this is how our whole power structure is set up. We start asking why Mary put herself into a position to be beaten by John."

"If we really want to work on prevention, we need to start asking questions about John, not Mary," Katz said. "We won't get anything done until we start treating these issues as men's issues and shift the paradigm at the cultural level."

[seabeyond]

19. i agree with you. when i hear sexual assault, i keep it at the ugly word of rape.

for whatever reason we want to make it gentler. rape is not gentle and i refuse to make it less than what it is.

i see a two front. because, regardless of responsibility on the man, i am gonna tell the girls in my life that alcohol is a consideration on her part, when dealing with this issue.

this is for her awareness, and nothing to do with the rapist. i would be derelict to not pass on info to my young nieces.

[jtown1123]

2. The thing is women are raped in burkas, burlap sacks, pajamas, suits, you name it

a majority of women are raped by someone they know or a family member. Saying women shouldn't wear short skirts is victim blaming. Better advice would be avoid walking alone, in unlit areas, etc.

Or, we could just tell men, "don't rape."

[polichick]

3. Excellent point, well made. k&r

[Scout]

4. and if i take all those precautions, and i'm still victimized?

then what?

it's victim blaming, face it.

[jtown1123]

6. +1

[PeaceNikki]

7. Exactly. Let's NOT focus on what women do to increase/decrease RISK, but on STOPPING THE VIOLENCE!

[seabeyond]

8. the rapist still raped. he still made the choice. it is still on him. the end.

i haev a niece and we have discussed how drinking too much can leave her handicapped towards men that are willing to rape a woman. it is not making her guilty of the rape, but educating her that there are men that wll rape, and alcohol can make it easier for him.

still

he

is the rapist.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. Bad things happen to people who don't deserve it all the time...

But that's no reason to hide behind when puposefully increasing the chances of something bad happening to you. Nor is it victim-blaming to advise safe risk-reducing behaviour. The perpetrator is always responsible for their actions.

For example, people get robbed & assaulted in all sorts of places (home, school, parking lots, playgrounds, streetcorners...) but because it can happen anywhere doesn't mean that we throw personal responsibility out the window and take midnight strolls down dark alleys all alone.

[Silent3]

18. Precautions are about reducing risk, not guarantees of immunity

I should, and do, have the freedom to drive 55 on a road with a speed limit of 55. I still might die in a car accident even when following all of the rules of the road, however.

I understand the resentment caused by rape prevention advice (see my other post in this thread), but I don't see at all how whether or not the advice always works (which obviously it won't) has anything to do with it.

[Brickbat]

9. You know, instead of rape-avoidance classes, I would like to see cops and male leaders teach classes

on how not to be a rapist. Teaching a rape-avoidance merely normalizes rape. Teaching men how not to rape -- now that's where the real work begins.

[PeaceNikki]

12. Perzactly. Violence Against Women Is a Men's Issue

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2008/06/03/jackson-katz-violence-against-women-is-a-mens-issue

[seabeyond]

13. brickbat... du had that on here a while ago. we need that on this thread, too. nt

[LadyLeigh]

14. That could be said about nearly every crime.

Why have alarm systems if we could just focus on teaching people not to break into houses?

It is not the world we live in. Bad people are out there and always will be.

[Brickbat]

21. Rape is very different, however. The majority of women who have been raped know the people who

raped them. It's not a question of "protecting yourself" by not dressing sexy. When law enforcement focuses on the rare scary stranger rape, they totally ignore the much larger problem of rape and sexual assault perpetrated by people who know their victims. A focus on that would be much more useful.

[Silent3]

22. Are the two things mutually exclusive?

You can't "teach" rape into total non-existence, just like you can't teach away any other crime. It isn't "normalizing" or "giving up" to accept that the world is highly unlikely to ever be completely perfect.

[Brickbat]

23. No, of course not. But one would be much more useful and focus on the actual problem than the other.

[Silent3]

25. Do you see any evidence that one thing is taking any "focus"...

...away from the other? There's plenty of focus to go around when different individuals are focusing on different things.

I don't think anyone knows of any proven-effective way to alter aggregate male behavior in regard to rape to any substantial degree, especially using approaches amendable to preserving reasonable civil liberties. Rightly or wrongly, large numbers of people don't begin to focus strongly on a problem until they start to see a possible viable path toward a successful solution. Lack of focus based on perceived difficulty of success stands apart from the problem of something else "taking focus away". Highly speculative fields of research and public policy will always lonely paths until someone out there on one of those lonely paths comes up with something to attract the interest of many others.

In the mean time, as much as it understandably provokes resentment, advice to potential victims on ways to lower their risk of being victims is going to be adopted as part of the solution.

[Silent3]

10. +1. I can understand why many people resent..

...advice about things like how they should and shouldn't dress, because those choices shouldn't make a difference in risk of rape, and it would certainly be better if we changed the world to make exercising the freedoms we should have completely safe.

At a certain point, however, we have to realize that we can't, simply by force of will, make the world be the way it should. One either has to exercise one's freedoms fully, sadly understanding that doing so will entail some extra risk, or curtail that exercise of freedom to whatever degree is required to reach the degree of safety one hopes to attain.

[gratuitous]

15. Who decides what's too sexy?

This much leg and no further? That much arm? How much mascara? I see a whole industry in the making! Think of the jobs to be had as busybodies debate endlessly over whether this rape victim or that rape victim "deserved" what she got. Sure, the rapist goes to prison, but the difference between a five year sentence and a longer stretch could be whether some tart had her hair done in a provocative style.

Wait, no, that's incredibly stupid. Just because genitalia are involved, this isn't a "sexual" crime, and sexual excuses for it aren't valid. Whew. Glad we got that settled.

[kctim]

26. Who? The rapist does.

That is why classes teaching 'don't rape' are pointless and why the uproar over teaching women to be aware is BS.

[treestar]

20. Are there any statistics confirming that dressy sexy has any effect

Rapists are about power - they rape old ladies at times - I don't think it matters if they think the victim is "sexy" or not.

[JI7]

24. Don't date Jocks ?

so jocks are more likely to be rapists than others ?

[seabeyond]

27. it seems to be

The present study builds upon previous research examining variables related to sexual assault. Previous studies have linked sexual aggression with attitudes toward rape as well as hostility toward women. Recent high-profile cases involving athletes and sexual assault have raised questions about the link with athletes. In fact, recent research has suggested that athletes may be more prone to commit rape; however, no study has examined competitiveness. This characteristic, associated with athletes, may predict sexual aggression and help assess why rape is reportedly perpetrated by athletes significantly more frequently than by nonathletes. It may be that individuals with high competitiveness may be more likely to be involved in sexual assaults. Scores on Competitiveness in 104 college men were significantly correlated with reported sexual aggression and athletic participation; however, there was no significant difference between athletes and nonathletes on aggressive sexual behavior. These findings suggest that characteristics of athletes rather than athletic participation alone must be considered further in examining the presumed link between athletes and sexual assault.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9450297

I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it.
-- Indiana Basketball Coach Bobby Knight

Its so addictive. I often get scared. Often, it's a matter of pushing the
limits. If you're doing the same thing for years and years, you get used to
it and become accustomed to it, but me and my peers are always pushing the
limits, going higher, faster, longer, and that's what gives you the
excitement-- the fear factor.
-- Skateboarder Mark "Gator" Anthony,
convicted of raping and killing girlfriend
Jessica Bergsten, talking about the
thrill of skateboarding

Don't fight it, I'm the champ.
-- Allegedly said by Mike Tyson to Desiree
Washington while he was raping her.


The sexual metaphors should be transparent, even to a dopey jock: Balls.
Goals. Penetration. Scores. The slam-dunk. The touchdown. The home run.
The soccer ball spurting on a projectile toward the yielding, womblike net.
Sports are filthy.

The superstar athlete's career follows a familiar linear pattern. It begins
with training. Then comes competition. Championship. Champagne. Cocaine.
Titty bars. Paternity suits. Rehab. Sneaker commercials. Beer
commercials. Cancer. Toss in a little rape, and you're set. Statistically,
jocks are four times more likely to rape than non-jocks. On my college
campus, the jocks used to huddle together in the recreation areas. They'd
grunt, nod, and occasionally point at things. I'm sure that if I have them a
bag of rocks to play with, they would have spent hours beating the rocks
together and arranging them in small piles. It didn't take much to keep them
amused. That's because most of their brain matter resides in their pants,
much like Volkswagens store their engines in the trunk.
http://www.textfiles.com/magazines/IBFT/ibft030.txt

According to Justice Department statistics, 32 percent of rapes reported to police in 1990 resulted in an arrest. More than half of these suspects, 54 percent, were convicted.
For athletes, the numbers are almost reversed. Of the 217 felony rape complaints forwarded to police involving athletes inthe decade between 1986 and 1995, 172 resulted in an arrest, a rate of 79 percent. But of those 172 arrests, only 53 — 31 percent — resulted in convictions. (In 43 cases the accused athlete pleaded guilty to a reduced charge or entered a plea of no contest; only 10 were convicted at trial.)
Partly this is because many prosecutors are reluctant to bring cases against athletes to trial. Interviews with the prosecutors who opted not to press charges revealed that in many cases they believed the accuser and often had corroborating evidence to support her claim. Still, they felt the cases could not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt.
*
involve a prominent athlete. But statistics from college campuses indicate the numbesignificant. According to a 1995 analysis of judicial records supplied by 10 of the nation's largest universities and colleges, male student-athletes made up 3.3 percent of the male student population, yet accounted for 19 percent of the reported perpetrators of sexual assault on college campuses. Unlike criminal complaints that are resolved in court, thescases were adjudicated away from the public eye by university judicial boards.