DId I just hear that they are thinking of doing away with military

[malaise]

pensions? Do these fuggers keep promises to anyone but their wealthy friends?
Can't they cancel some of those useless weapons contracts to their friends?
Well they'd better bring back the draft - maybe the wars will finally end.

[MineralMan]

1. I first heard that this morning on the news. I'm not sure who's

speculating about it, though. I can't think of much of anything that would be less popular in Congress, though. Being hawks is endemic there, it's always seemed to me. I think it's unlikely to happen. I'd like to see major cuts, though, in the size of the military, and the closing of all foreign bases that aren't actively defending against a current threat. That's not "on the table," though.

[qb]

2. Another scheme to suck more hard-earned cash into Wall Street for the wealthy to play with.

:banghead:

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

3. Dunno. Didja?

[grahamhgreen]

4. LINK?

[malaise]

11. Heard it on M$NBComcast n/t

[madokie]

22. Yes I've read it in the local papers the last couple days also

SOB's are pushing as far as they can get by with. sunsabiotches anyway.

[The Magistrate]

5. Pretty Much, Ma'am

Basically, the idea is to convert to 401k plans.

Really not too wise, giving armed men a more than rooting interest in the gyrations of the stock market.

One of the reasons French troops proved unreliable when the Revolution came was that French soldiers were not issued rations, but given an allowance with which to purchase their food, which allowance had not been raised as costs of food rose sharply: when ordering men to shoot at a crowd screaming 'we can't afford bread!', it is best if the men in ranks are not looking at each other and muttering, 'shit, neither can we...'.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

6. How'd you do that with zero reference?

#1 "Did I just hear?"

#2 "Pretty much."

:wtf:

[The Magistrate]

8. The Proposal has Been In The Wind For Several Days, Sir

Be assured, any cuts in defense spending will come out of the pay of the soldiers, whether in terms of retirement, duty allowances, or health care.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

9. "The Proposal"

Got even the barest scrap?

[malaise]

13. Here's a link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/15/eveningnews/main20092652.shtml

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

18. Snips:

"...it seems everything is a potential target for budget cutters."

The proposal comes from an influential panel of military advisors called the Defense Business Board. Their plan, laid out in a 24-page presentation "Modernizing the Military Retirement System," would eliminate the familiar system under which anyone who serves 20 years is eligible for retirement at half their salary. Instead, they'd get a 401k-style plan with government contributions.

Holy shit!... I couldn't wade any deeper in that bullshit.

[The Magistrate]

21. This Bunch, Sir, Is To Be Taken Seriously

The body is official, a Rumsfeld creation, intended to bring 'business expertise' to the Defense Department, or, in other words, present the views of the permanent government of big business.

[malaise]

26. And that Sir is what frightens me

Fight back or die under fascism

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

60. -->

[malaise]

10. I swear that the lunatics are running the asylum Sir

Ah well! This is madness!

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. When the Berlin Wall fell, the troops manning it

had not been paid for THREE MONTHS... you wonder at times if people in power EVER learn.

[malaise]

15. There's a poll at link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/08/15/eveningnews/main20092652.shtml

[gateley]

38. Current results:

Should the military continue offering a 20-year pension or switch to 401(k)-style plan?

Continue offering 20-year pension
73%

Switch to a 401(k)-style plan
27%

[pipi_k]

50. I just voted myself

and the numbers were pretty much the same...


That's pretty telling, and they had better pay attention if they want an experienced military

[TwilightGardener]

51. This story tells a lie, anyway--troops already CAN invest in a 401k (Thrift Savings

Plan, same as federal employees). They don't walk away with "nothing" anymore if they serve less than 20, unless they don't participate in TSP at all.

[DrDan]

17. so driven by wall street - they would love to get their hands on all those retirement dollars

[jwirr]

23. Ah, they cannot get our social security so they are going after another

pile of government pensions. Watch out congress critters - your pension is next.

[gateley]

34. Ooh - I hadn't heard about the 401K plan idea. That's just

wrong. These people give up their lives to serve the country, they deserve special rewards and appreciation, IMO.

[malaise]

37. That's what's pissing me off.

It's just wrong

[gateley]

41. It's heartbreaking. They all KNOW what has happened to 401Ks

in the recent past, and they've done nothing substantial to ensure crap like that can't happen again. I just don't understand it. They're looking at the numbers and the bottom line, but not thinking beyond that. They're so compartmentalized.

[malaise]

43. They don't give a flying fugg

Only the rich count

[gateley]

45. How silly of me to let that slip my mind. I must be high.

Did you read that article someone posted the other day about how the wealthy ARE less empathetic? It was chilling. They are clueless at how too many have to live, and they don't care enough to find out.

[malaise]

46. They just don't care

Any group who can demand more in the middle of a global crisis of their making do not give a flying fuck about anything but wealth and power.

[gateley]

48. I usually stand up for most groups of people, feel that if I were

wealthy I'd probably take advantage of the tax breaks, too but try to change it and be willing to pay more, but these people who just choose to tune out make my blood boil. I really would get a sense of satisfaction if they found their asses out on the street.

[Poll_Blind]

7. No, no- they're just STRENGTHENING it. Just like Social Security/Medicare. It's Progress™

PB

[malaise]

12. LOL

I don't think so :D

[Poll_Blind]

19. Indeed! There was a great quote from Player Piano by Vonnegut about THAT kind of...

..."progress" that I tried to pull up but couldn't. :(

PB

[malaise]

27. Great quote

Thanks

[dgibby]

16. Yes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4962154

It's also being reported on MSNBC.

If they do this, I suspect they will bleed mid-level enlisted and officers. I'm retired Navy, no way in hell I'd have stayed for another 10-12 years at mid-point in my career if I hadn't had my 20 year guaranteed retirement and medical. Why stay when you could get a job with the same bennies on the outside? Makes no sense, unless, of course, you're planning to privatize the military.

[jwirr]

24. You are correct - they are going to have a harder time getting people

to re-up. But they think if they say they are putting it into a 401K that it will be okay. Not if they cannot stabilize the stock market.

[malaise]

30. These folks want all the money

Every fugging dollar.

[gordianot]

20. Do they want to create another General Smedly Butler?

That did not turn out too well for them in the 1930's. Any country that does not take care of veterans does not deserve to create new ones.

[malaise]

28. Maybe that's who we need

right now

[gordianot]

49. Butler scared them to the core.

They thought they owned Butler and did not count on how angered Butler was at MacArthur and his heavy hand with the bonus marchers. Messing with the current generation the most experienced veterans of any generation is not smart. There may be plenty of latter day Butlers out there.

[grahamhgreen]

25. I wonder whose side they'll be on if there's a revolution?

[tsuki]

29. Hey, after Social Security is gone, military pensions are next. I have

been predicting this.

[malaise]

31. Who is going to stop them?

That's what I want to know

[tsuki]

47. No one. We are so fractured as a society, it is unbelievable.

Everyone is busy clawing their neighbor, rather than the top 1%.

[gateley]

32. Not "doing away" with them, as I understand it, but "trimming"

in some areas (don't know which) but making them better in others.

The example I heard cited was that now, you have to do your 20 years or you get NO retirement. A new proposal would let those who serve for shorter periods to receive SOME retirement.

And I agree, they should be eyeing the military contracts rather than our personnel. AND throw in that retirement benefit for shorter-timers! Serving your country for a few years should be rewarded after your service.

[TwilightGardener]

53. Troops can participate in a 401k plan, if they don't want to stay in for 20.

They don't get matching funds, but they can opt to put in up to 10% of their salary into this 401k.

[gateley]

54. Shameful. Thanks for your service, folks! And here's a little

perk for ya! :grr:

[TwilightGardener]

55. Yeah, the "unfair pension" is a BS argument. And these people underestimate

just how much of an incentive the pension is--if anyone does more than two enlistments, it's basically FOR the pension. It's not because they love spending months and years away from their families in shitholes getting shot at.

[gateley]

56. And getting crappy pay. nt

[Kingofalldems]

33. George Carlin was right

[malaise]

39. Carlin was right on every damn thing

Damn I miss him

[Rex]

35. If they do that, there will be no military.

[Fire Walk With Me]

36. Military pensions, but not military spending. Of course.

[in_cog_ni_to]

40. Then how the hell do they plan to get enlistments? Is a mandatory enlistment

in our future? You WILL fight all of our illegal wars whether you want to or not. :grr:

[malaise]

42. Probably from their private prisons

Who knows with these fascists.

[metalbot]

57. They'll still get enlistments

I don't think most people who join the military do it deciding outright that it will be a 20 year career. What this will kill is their retention. There would no longer be a carrot to offer someone who has put more than one enlistment in.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Oh...I don't know about that. I think they may have just lost one enlistment

who has been living in my home the last few weeks. He's my son's friend. 18 Years old, bad school grades, no money and parents PUSHING HIM to enlist, so he did. He planned to be a career soldier. Last week he finally got a full time body shop job making $9.00 an hour and is seriously considering chucking that enlistment now after I told him what I just read about this pension crap. He was planning a career in the military and retiring with a pension. Hell, if he could continue in this job, he could eventually have a good job as body shop repairman. They can make a good living and he wouldn't be getting shot at!

[southernyankeebelle]

44. You heard right. They will never keep people. The pension is what

people wanted to stay in. Can you think a soldier on the front line going to want a 401k in this kind of stockmarket and lose thousand of dollars. These motherfers want to take pensions, social security and medicare away. Yet the motherfing wealthy get it all. It will never ever work. People can find a job on the outside without putting their life in danger on the front line. My husband who was in for 21 yrs stayed just for the pension and benefits.

[spanone]

52. well, there goe the volunteers

[Major Hogwash]

59. They want to privatize the military eventually.

Bush, Cheney, et al wanted to privatize every government entity.
They broke the Army so it couldn't be fixed, except by being privatized.

Simple plan actually.
Start 2 wars at the same time and activate half of the Guard so they quit, and then watch the ranks shrink.