Ok, fess up now. Which union members retire at age 55 with 80% of wages?

[madfloridian]

President Obama made reference to these people in Decatur, Iowa yesterday.

He seemed very concerned about how union benefits might be perceived by others. Perhaps when the president makes statements that seem not connected with reality he could be adding to the concern unnecessarily.

I would like to know who in the public sector can retire at age 55 with 80% of wages? It's a fair question. It sounds like right wing talking points to me.

From the Q & A transcript:

I do say, though, to my friends in the public sector unions that it is important that you are on the side of reform where reform is needed. Because the truth of the matter is, is that at a time when everybody is belt-tightening, there is nothing wrong with a union saying to itself, you know what, we know budgets are hard right now. Let’s sit down and say we’re willing to negotiate so that we’re making some sacrifices to maintain the number of teachers in the classroom and keep class sizes at a reasonable level. We’re willing to make some modifications in terms of how our pension systems work so that they’re sustainable for the next generation of teachers as long as it’s a conversation, as opposed to it simply being imposed and collective bargaining rights being stripped away.

So I think it’s important -- remember we talked about shared sacrifice and burden sharing. Well, this is an area where there’s got to be burden sharing as well. If a public sector employee is able to retire at 55 with 80 percent of their wages, and the average public sector employee has got a 401(k) that they’ve just seen decline by about 20 percent and they have no idea how they’re going to retire, and they’re feeling burdened by a lot of taxes and they don’t feel like the public sector employers are making any adjustments whatsoever to reflect the tough economic realities that are facing folks who are not protected, then there’s going to be a natural backlash.

If there’s a feeling that unions aren’t partners in reform processes in things like education, then they’re going to end up being an easy target. So there’s got to be an understanding of, on the one hand, we’ve got to revere public employees -- I was saying when I was in Cannon Falls that people are tired of politics, but they’re not tired of government. They may not realize it, but government are our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq. Government are our teachers in the classroom. Government are the FEMA folks who help people when there’s a flood or a tornado or a natural disaster. (Applause.)

President's Q & A from Decatur, Iowa August 15.

I am not even getting into the teacher union stuff he said because his education policies are already taking care of that, I fear. Teachers are giving and giving and compromising all over the place only to be replaced with types like TFA when all their compromising doesn't keep them from being fired or laid off.

If the attack on public unions is to continue, at least let's be factual.

[Myrina]

1. Retired Congress and Senate critters?

:shrug:

[madfloridian]

3. Are they in unions?

Seriously, I don't know.

[Myrina]

20. Not an official one, I wouldn't think, but the 'wink and a nudge' union ...

paid for by Wall Street ... I know state/local gov't employees have unions but not sure if that extends up to federal/elected, and even if it did, they're not retiring at 55 and getting 80% of their salary.

:shrug:

[Armstead]

22. No but they have pensions after their terms

[quarbis]

89. CSRS members

"could" do it but they would have started working when they were 13 years old

[pecwae]

163. Very few of those left.

I'm surprised the fed hasn't found a way to tap into CSRS. I understand it's flush.

[sad sally]

197. The Treasury Dept already did that.

Have you wondered how the Government can continue to operate after it hit the debt ceiling and could no longer borrow money. The answer is that it is filching money from Federal employees and retirees.

The Treasury Department is taking money that Federal retirees and employees have paid into their retirement fund and their 401K and using that money to fund Federal operations. Yes, you read that right. On May 16th, Secretary Geithner notified the House and Senate that, in order to keep the government operating Treasury would take money that has been and is currently being deducted from Federal employee paychecks for their retirement and use it to pay the Government's bills.

Geitner said:

I am writing to notify you, as required under 5 U.S.C. § 8348(l)(2), of my determination that, by reason of the statutory debt limit, I will be unable to invest fully the portion of the Civil Service Retirement and Disability Fund (“CSRDF”) not immediately required to pay beneficiaries. For purposes of this statute, I have determined that a “debt issuance suspension period” will begin today, May 16, 2011, and last until August 2, 2011, when the Department of the Treasury projects that the borrowing authority of the United States will be exhausted. During this “debt issuance suspension period,” the Treasury Department will suspend additional investments of amounts credited to, and redeem a portion of the investments held by, the CSRDF, as authorized by law.
But since that is only $785 Billion, Treasury is also taking money that employees have invested in their 401K,

In addition, I am notifying you, as required under 5 U.S.C. § 8438(h)(2), of my determination that, by reason of the statutory debt limit, I will be unable to invest fully the Government Securities Investment Fund (“G Fund”) of the Federal Employees’ Retirement System in interest-bearing securities of the United States, beginning today, May 16, 2011. The statute governing G Fund investments expressly authorizes the Secretary of the Treasury to suspend investment of the G Fund to avoid breaching the statutory debt limit.

[pecwae]

203. Well, color me not surprised.

I kept meaning to look this up and never got around to it. Thank you for passing this on even though I'm even more sickened by what is being done to all of us.

[fasttense]

153. I think we should ask the White House.

It was the President who said it. He must know exactly who is retiring at 55 with 80% of their working income. The White House should answer the question.

Here are the White House numbers:
Phone Numbers
Comments: 202-456-1111
Switchboard: 202-456-1414
FAX: [phone]

Here is their e-mail link:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact

Don't let Obama get away with mindless parroting of RepubliCON lies. Ask him exactly who he was talking about.

[Brickbat]

2. I would much rather see Obama get on private sector employers' cases to improve their compensation

packages to match union compensation, rather then get on the unions' cases to reduce their compensation so private sector employees don't get their feelers hurt.

Seriously, WTF? What the fuck is this man's problem?

[elehhhhna]

52. his problem is he's effing us over and he's not even being smooth about it

wtf, obama? aneurica will be a better place if everyone's fukd over and can't ever, ever retire? WTF?

[truedelphi]

93. I have been asking that question ever since

He started making appointments.

When his appointments were all Bush and Clinton era people, I really wanted to know WTF?

[Old Time Pagan]

175. For me that's the elephant in the room that nobody's talking about

Granted the republicans are doing everything in their power to make him ineffective but nobody forced him to surround himself with retreads from the B & C administrations.

We farm, and when we found out he was selecting Vilsack as Sec of Agriculture with all his connections to Monsanto well, so much for "change we could believe in."

So I agree with you, WTF indeed.

[truedelphi]

189. The Secretary of Ag position -

Don't even get me started.

Anyway, thanks for farming and doing your best in a changing and not so benign world.

[Enthusiast]

149. I don't know why

a Democratic President would campaign as a Reagan Democrat. Things have changed radically since the early 1990s. The voters were crazy to get rid of Republicanism and anything that smelled of George W Bush. I do not know who has Obama's ear but they are guiding him on the wrong path.

[dotymed]

161. At Fort Campbell, Ky., the security that screens people who

enter the base are civilian They are paid barely over minimum wage. This was a job performed by military police for decades. This practice begs at least three questions.

1) Why aren't the Military Police still doing this job? They were very good and very authoritative. When an older person, like me, now approaches your car and does their job it just is not as convincing.

2) Why is this job not covered by the "Davis Bacon Act" which guarantees employees on Federal land, that they will be compensated at the "prevailing wage?" $8.00 an hour is ridiculous. All are part time, no benefits.

3) How much do the (I'd bet, no-bid) contractors get paid for each security person posted on the entrances and exits of Ft. Campbell, Ky?

I know that most construction people are paid at least $18.00 an hour, which is low on a federal installation. Their security counterparts are paid less than half of that.

[Starry Messenger]

4. k&r

It sounds like the "facts" from Heritage or Heartland Institute. Utter crap.

[Donnachaidh]

5. I'm no expert, but I would think firemen might retire with those numbers

My BIL is a retired NYC fireman. He did his 20 years, and is now retired. While I don't know how much his actual retirement is, most of his co-workers hit that golden 20 year number and retire.

Personally, I'd like to see Obama show some *shared sacrifice* and cut the presidential pension by 2/3rds. It's obscene to pay someone 180K a year for (potentially) less than a decade's work.

[Yo_Mama]

6. Generally police/fire

Although I know that it used to be that the 80% was more like 55%. However some of those did get a massive upgrade and are getting 80% or above.

It makes sense if you think about it - don't expect a 62 year old fireman to be able to climb up the ladder, chop his way through the door, pick you up out of the flames and carry you to safety. For certain occupations, early retirement is the only way that makes sense.

[madfloridian]

9. If anyone deserves it, fire and police do. But is it 80%?

I know a few retirees from that field, and I think it is more like 50%.

80% is a lot for the public sector retiree, and I just want to know which ones.

[sammytko]

14. I retired from the Air Force at 43 with 55%

It was 50% at 20 and 2.5% for each year afterwards.

[James48]

132. I retired at age 43 with 20 years of active and NG service,

and will receive about 20% beginning at age 60.


By the way- nobody on active duty in the U.S. Military is represented by a Union.
In fact, there is a DoD regulation against that.

M-Day Technicians, yes, but not AGR.

[Yo_Mama]

24. I know several recent that got over 85%

That's what they told me, and I can't see why they would lie about it. 50 or 55% used to be the standard. Of the two that I know, one was a cop in CA and one was a cop in NJ.

But I do want to stress that it is only in occupations with high physical demands that the retirement in mid 50s is offered, AFAIK, and there it is done for the public safety.

[sammytko]

27. I remember one true life drama on tv about a cop that killed his wives -

they said he retired with 90% and he was still fairly young. Young enough to marry again and kill again.

[we can do it]

76. TV Is Not Fact- Give Me a Break

[sammytko]

217. why so snarky - it was a real person - Drew something

it was one of those 48 hr shows.

[we can do it]

77. What State? Maybe Its Tax Free Due To An Injury and It Adds Up To 85%

of what they used to get paid when paying taxes?

[JDPriestly]

126. By the way, high school teachers in LA should get 80% if dangerous work is a factor.

I know a couple who were seriously injured by one of their students.

Talk about a risky profession.

[lunasun]

194. and their pay is not really that high vs danger and physcl demand of job

[we can do it]

74. No It Is NOT and I Am SIck of People Spreading That Crap

the max you can get is 72% after a ton of years- 35? I think- or a total disability.

[Stellar]

169. Can you tell me anything about the rule of 85?

Is this where you can work for so many years, and the number of years you work plus your age adds up to 85? ie 55years old plus 30 years service equals 85, then you can retire.

I'm not sure about the income when you retire. The "might" add up to a hefty sum also.

[joeglow3]

127. 50% of what??? Spiking is a HUGE problem.

In Omaha, a few years ago, fire fighters got a LOT more. I don't know what the percentage was, but it was multiplied by "income" that included everything. Thus, firefighters would save as much comp time as possible, work tons of overtime in their last year and cash in all comp time. We have a family friend who retired at 47 and gets a pension of almost $87,000 a year for life. Within a year, he was fire chief in a neighboring city (Bellevue) making around $70,000 a year.

Sorry, but this is obscene and adds a LOT af ammunition to the other side.

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100323/NEWS01/703239872

[DeschutesRiver]

212. Same thing here

I have family members and friends in the fire department. My info is a bit dated, but from some things I recently heard, I am assuming it is still going on, ie the spiking up of the last income year to inflate the pension amount forever, as they move on to other careers in the second half of their working lives. A current friend in the department is in year 16 of service, plans to be out by 50 or so, and with a pension that, iirc, would be > 75%.

I couldn't figure out how some were retiring so young, with a such a big pension, and then starting new careers. Then I got informed, and now I know. People can like it or not like it, but that is how it rolls.

It has been talked about for so long now that honestly I assumed people generally knew about this practice. Seems like in the past, whenever it was mentioned in my neck of the woods, no one had any complaints about it. Of course, the economy was so flush that most really didn't pay attention to what this would mean should the economy ever turn, and certainly not if the turn was great depression like in nature.

[quiller4]

188. Here police or fire fighters who retire on disability with 20 years

or more of service can receive 80-85% upon retirement.

[MedicalAdmin]

31. Most fire and police go 30 unless they get hurt on the job.

And in those jobs getting hurt and hurt bad is a very real possibility.

My dad was a fireman and retired after 35 years as the DC of a big department with 600 guys under his command. He had an 8th grade education and could do complex differential hydraulic equations in his head while keeping exact track of entire halls of guys at fires. I got to watch him a couple of times at work and it was amazing. He knew where every guy was, who his back up, where that guy was, what equipment they had and what the PSI was at their nozzle head at all times. And he knew every one of those guys by first name.

My understanding is that 30 years is pretty normal to get that level of retirement benefits but I could be wrong. I think the prez is talking out his hind parts.

[Jackpine Radical]

56. Police, fire, prison guards, deputy sheriffs, probation/parole agents in some places…

[we can do it]

71. Well FYI, Its 72% Max If You Do Like 35-40 Years. 60% For 25 Years If You Are 55

I am on disability retirement 50%

[xmas74]

75. That's my only thought.

Public safety-police, fire, and EMS. Last I heard it wasn't 80%.

[katsy]

7. Hold on.

A CEO gets to keep his millions in negotiated compensation... even if the company itself goes bust. He is rewarded.

If a Union is strong enough and smart enough to negotiate dynamite compensation packages for workers, more power to them.

More people should join unions is the real lesson here.

But no. They change the conversation. They pit one worker against another. The CEOs and robber barons go unscathed.

[csziggy]

73. BINGO - why is a Democratic President blaming unions

When CEOs of companies that scammed the government out of billions are taking home millions for BONUSES? When those same CEOs are sitting on TRILLIONS of dollars instead investing in this country and hiring people? When those companies are paying little if any taxes and shipping billions out of the country to avoid paying anything?

Unions are not the problem, Mr. President - concentration of the wealth of this country in the hands of a few is the problem.

[russspeakeasy]

112. It beats thinking

[chervilant]

125. No duh!

"...at a time when everybody is belt-tightening..."

REALLY, Mr. Obama?! EVERYBODY?!?!

Weasel words, methinks.

[readmoreoften]

215. Because he's a right-wing stalking horse.

He's a company man who ran the most dishonest campaign in US presidential history.

[Flatulo]

117. That's a flawed analogy... CEO salaries come at the expense

of shareholders, and those shareholders can either a) vote the bum out or b) sell their shares. They don't need to participate in the reward process.

Public employees, on the other hand, are compensated by the taxpayers. It's not voluntary. If you think public employees earn too much, there's not much you can do about it.

[katsy]

185. No. Not flawed.

Potential employees have the right to bargain for their compensation. Whether Union, non-union or ceo.

A deal is a deal in my book. If a bad deal was made, honor the contracts and revise same for new employees.

And the pont that workers who don't retire with pensions will resent public sector employees with pensions is moot. Workers may resent the extravagant bonuses of upper management but I haven't seen too many ceos give up their bonuses. There's not much you or even the shareholders can do about that either, right? There's always one or a few management insiders who is part of the dream team management that hold enough shares and sway to prevent smaller shareholders from having any impact on their salaries. So be it.

[Flatulo]

206. In theory at least, shareholders have a remedy for an overpaid

underperforming CEO. I agree that as a practical matter, it never happens. We've ceded our votes to the mutual fund companies who pick our stocks for us.

Back in the day, small investors used to actually attend the annual meetings and vote the Board members in or out.

And please don't think I'm insensitive to management excess. The last 20 years of my career have been spent watching greedy ignorant pirates loot companies until there was nothing left. In 2000, the management of Maxtor, the disk drive company, paid the top five guys around $70m while laying off 4,000 people. In 2005 they sold the company to Seagate, fired everyone else and absconded with a quarter billion.

You could shoot every MBA in the country and I wouldn't lose a minute's sleep.

I don't begrudge the benefits packages negotiated by public unions. My only point was that the taxpaying public has no say in the matter, even though the benefits are paid for by them.

[katsy]

211. LOL my husband is one of those... B school.

And I tell him that his ilk should be shot every day!

B-school. No pedigree though and has been laid off for 10 years. Right when our twins were born.

Now he gets it.

Me? I will never take the side of anyone over a worker. (Not saying no worker deserves to be fired, just saying "prove it") My daddy was union. A democrat/socialist.

It's been a pleasure discussing this with you.

[Flatulo]

226. I could regale you for days with horror stories of corporate

shennanigans. The past 20 years have really opened my eyes as to what's been going on in corporate America.

I wish I knew how to fix this. Corporations jump when Wall Street speaks. The obsession with quarterly results at the expense of long-term stability have wrecked this country. Management compensation has become completely disconnected from reality.

I've seen execs walk away with 10 or 20 million after just six months on the job. When Mark Hurd took over HP, a once-great American innovator, the Board gave him $20mil for showing up for work his first day. When Robert Palmer busted up DEC and sold off the pieces, laying off 90,000 workers, he got $90mil.

When Paul Tufano came out to our site in Shrewsbury MA to layoff half the company after a record-breaking quarter, he brought armed guards with him. Men with guns were in our building threatening to shoot anyone who got out of line. He got $49mil that year.

and on and on.

Pleasure chatting with you too.

Edit: spelling

[Warren Stupidity]

8. Obama will retire at age 54 with a huge pension.

[doc03]

30. It's looking like he may get an early retirement n/t

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabrina 1]

144. Well, I'm sure he'll be 'tightening his belt' and be willing

to talk about 'reform' himself. He won't need that pension, he's done such a good job for the criminals who caused this country's economic collapse I'm sure he will be very well rewarded. And being that he is so concerend about those 'public sector' pensions and 'early retirement', I'm sure we'll see him lead the way and set an example for everyone else by giving up part of his own pension! :sarcasm:

[Brickbat]

10. Seriously, this is like Republicanism 101. Instead of asking "why don't I have that kind of

compensation," Obama is encouraging all of us to look at public workers and say, "Heeeyyyy....what's the big idea? I want you to have a shitty 401(k) like me!"

[snooper2]

28. It is not sustainable to have everyone in the country retire even at 60

Live 40 years, and collect 70-80% of what they were making, adjusted for inflation every year-----


Do the damn math, it just doesn't add up....

[sammytko]

47. and look what happened to that town in Rhode Island

pension fund is underfunded.

[JackRiddler]

48. In a modern economy, this is not only sustainable but increasingly necessary.

Modern industrial societies create ever more product for ever less labor. It's time to get over our workerism and acknowledge this awesome reality as a good thing, instead of trying to divide and conquer the working class with meaningless resentments. The debate should be over how to deal with this happy reality by reducing the work week and distributing the labor to all who can work, not how to keep old people working forever at shittier wages while increasingly cutting the youth out of the economy altogether.

[Flatulo]

119. Here here. I was discussing this with a colleague a few weeks ago..

We were wondering, if a shirt can be made for 30 cents in Pakistan, how much fucking cheaper does it have to be? Every goddam person in the world can afford a shirt, yet the people who make shirts are compelled to find the next shithole where they can make the same shirt for 29 cents.

All the necessities of modern life (with the exception of clean water, in some places) can be produced with a nearly optimized quantity of labor.

Yet everyone is working longer hours.

Fuck that.

[Nay]

158. Amen, Jack. nt

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

57. It'd be less evil to tell people to suck it up and work until they're 80...

...if there was decent healthcare and early retirement/disability when one can't work for health reasons.

[we can do it]

79. Nobody Does That Other Than CEOs Who Get Rewarded For Bankrupting Companies

Its all RW propaganda

[RaleighNCDUer]

143. You really expect everyone to live to 100?

Start work at 18, retire at 65. 47 years working, that's typical. 50% of retirees will die before hitting 77 - that's 12 years of retirement, not 40. Half the remainder dies every five years, until you are left with 2 or 3 out of one hundred who hit 100.

Sounds like YOU are the one who is math challenged.

[Change has come]

146. 60 + 40 = 100 !

There's your problem right there. :shrug:

[indurancevile]

150. what percent of people live 40 years after age 60?

average life expectancy at 60 is 20 years for men, 23 for women.

less than 1% of 60-year-olds make it to 100.

More than half die before 85.

[shanti]

67. exactly

that's the bullshit that schwarzenegger was throwing out when he was in office. got everyone in sacramento worked up about it too. :(

[lunasun]

195. exactly!!! and I talk to some clueless who already have learned the new speak

along with "those union people seem so angry"
I thought the M$M was doing a great
job
now Obama joins the mantra uuuuuuuggh

[Davis_X_Machina]

11. Public safety officers, mostly...in a handful of states and municipalities...

...who are hired as soon as they qualified for the job. It happens, but it's not common.

A more common pension formula is .02 x years worked, so someone hired at 21 by 55 more typically would have a 64% pension.

Local variations abound. Thanks to Olympia Snowe's husband, here there is a 6.5% per year early retirement penalty, if the person above were me, my 64% pension would actually be a 40% pension give or take.

[av8rdave]

12. It sounds to me like the President supports the race to the bottom

Instead of depressing the wages/benefits of those doing relatively well (if those even exist), the goal should be raising other wages/benefits to be competitive with that.

THAT, my friends, would stimulate demand and therefore job growth. More demand, more products/services needed. More products/services needed, more jobs. More jobs, stronger economy.

Exactly the opposite of the drivel the supply siders endlessly repeat.

[Gormy Cuss]

13. Why not direct the question to the White House?

The president said it, the president's staff has a duty to back it up with details.

[Ilsa]

15. Nurses that have been hospital staff should be able to. They do literally TONS of lifting

and other physically dangerous work, and it is every day, because everyday can present emergencies on the floor.

Honestly, I think nurses have a rotten deal on how quickly they can retire from a lot of nursing jobs. I've met too many nurses with bad backs and bad knees from years of patient care.

[eilen]

38. Unless they work for the state in a union

nurses have a pretty shitty deal when it comes to retirement. I work with a retired Emergency Room nurse who must work part time in order to afford her Medicare Part B which used to be covered by our hospital to its retirees (but since they could change benefits at will, they do).

[ZombieHorde]

16. Another rich person concerned the poor have too much money at retirement.

But we have all the money we need for wars.

Is this not obviously fucked up? President Obama's values and my values are very different from each other.

[Zorra]

19. Well said.

"Another rich person concerned the poor have too much money at retirement."

Yeah, it is very obviously fucked up.

[emilyg]

124. F'up !!!!

[area51]

176. +1 n/t

[Ganja Ninja]

17. This is really becoming a moot point if it's not moot already.

A lot of places on the rust belt that use to use union public employees have privatized. The only union pensioners they have left are the ones that retired before the systems privatized. That was the case with my brother and his wife who worked for the local school board up in Michigan. In fact the were eligible for retirement when the system went private so they retired and then went to work for the private firm thus they double dipped for a few years before retiring completely.

[Enrique]

18. workers with years and years of service

so yes, it happens, but it's not typical, but Obama compares that atypical public sector worker with the "average" private sector worker.

How about comparing that fortunate public sector worker with fortunate private sector workers, such as his Wall Street friends?

[Armstead]

23. How about comparing the unfortunate private sector workers?

What galls me is when people complain about how "well" unionized public workers are doing compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

In most cases that is not because public sector union workers have some outrageous wages and benefits. It has more to do with how much ground workers have been losing in the private sector, partially because of the systematic stripping away of unions.

The real answer is to reassert all workers rights -- not tear down those of one group.

[doc03]

32. +1 n/t

[vankuria]

81. Right On...

Retiring at 55 with 80% of your salary is possible but not typical. I worked for the New York State for 32 yrs. as a social worker, a difficult and at times very dangerous job. I worked my entire career for NYS starting at 22 yrs and retiring at 55. What "sweetened" the deal for me was a retirement incentive I was offered because the state decided to downsize my whole dept. (the reasons are probably for a different forum), anyways I was given an extra month for every year I was there which gave me an extra 3 yrs. bringing my state service up to 35 yrs. Again this is not the norm. I might add I paid into my retirement, pay very large medical insurance premiums and I am by no means rich. I worked very hard for my pension, doing a job most people wouldn't want, taking care of NYS's most vulnerable citizens. I enjoyed many facets of my job, worked with great people and learned many life lessons from the people i served. My job was extremely stressful and I have some stress related illnesses most likely from what I did for 32 yrs. I am not complaining, but I hate it when someone wants to begrudge me because I get better retirement benefits than they do. I worked for it and deserve every penny! I wish the private sector was as good to their employees as the public sector is.

[ljm2002]

21. The only people I knew who retired that young...

...are military and police. They only had to put in 20 years to get full retirement benefits -- at least that was the case 30 years ago, maybe things have changed for them too.

[doc03]

26. A friend of mine retired at 50 from a patrolman's job with the

Ohio Highway Patrol. Then a few months latter came back as a custodian at the patrol barracks. He said at 65 he will be able to get a second pension. Our township road supervisor retired at 45 and got a job driving a truck for an asphalt company. Our school bus garage superintendent took his retirement and went back to work on the same job. Same goes for the Superintendent of our school district. I have no idea what their percentages are though.

[shanti]

68. i did

retired at 55 after 21 years and wasn't fire/safety. it isn't the norm though.

[demigoddess]

99. military used to retire at 20 with 50 percent of a base salary

not their whole salary, and i hear it is now more like 40 percent. I come from military people and all of them had to get jobs after retirement to make ends meet. But I have heard tons of people who think military retire in the lap of luxury. We do not. and many military retirees have health problems as a result of their service. Both my dads, military died too young to collect SS. And had jobs after the military.

[ljm2002]

116. Thanks for the information...

...always good to get the real story. I was under a wrong impression. Although still, 20 years and then half salary is good! But most people would still have to work.

[demigoddess]

220. base salary is only part of the take home pay.

retirement pay is based on base pay. Hence the fifty percent might be more like an actual 25 to 30 percent actually. Get a clue

[Philippine expat]

221. It is still 50% after 20 years, but if you enlisted at 18 years old

and retired 37 years later at age 55 you would get
92.5% of your base salary.

[taught_me_patience]

25. I know someone who retired at 55 with a 100k/yr pension. California state education worker

It actually really pisses me off. Deferred comp my ass... that's probably a $3MM pension if you convert to an annuity.

[county worker]

59. Do you have all the relevant parts of the story here?

Hardly anyone can do that. I my case I would have to work at my job for 30 years or more. It is not right to make the vast majority of workers make sacrifice because a few followed the rules of their contract and it was good to them. Most of us won't get near 1/2 of our salary at retirement.

But we are still in a defined benefit plan. Most everyone up until Reagan's time had a defined benefit plan if they had a plan at all. The private sector switched to 401Ks, most public sectors stuck with the defined benefit plan.

[emsimon33]

85. Are you sure? They would have had to be paid a huge salary...

a superintendent perhaps or in higher education a dean or above.

[taught_me_patience]

92. Principal... makes me even madder. n/t

[haele]

219. Must have been making 6 figures at least - with a working spouse allowing for max deferral -

High level administrator, with a salary over 6 figures, right?
Dad, a senior teacher who lead extracurricular activities and was an honor student adviser at his high school, was maxed out at 30 years at $75K a year and retired at the age of 67. Because Mom also worked a decent paying job and their house was paid off, he maxed his deferral options out when he was in his early 50's and ended up with almost $35K a year pension when he retired. Mom's pension as an administrative manager at a was almost the same, so they didn't see too much of a hit at retirement, but they both ended up with barely 50% of their highest salary for a pension.

And that's the state of the majority of the average union workforce - they're lucky if they get half their pay in pension when they retire.

I've always thought compensation was backwards in this country - people who "administer", no matter how well or poorly they do, always seem to get rewarded at a higher level while than those who actually have the responsibility of getting the job done and run the risk of losing it all if they mess up.

Haele

[Bluenorthwest]

29. Congress is not a Union, but...

Under both CSRS and FERS, Members of Congress are eligible for a pension
at age 62 if they have completed at least five years of service.
Members are eligible
for a pension at age 50 if they have completed 20 years of service, or at any age after
completing 25 years of service.

http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30631.pdf

So Congress gets it at 50 with 20 years of service.

[tularetom]

33. A CA public safety worker with 30 years of service

Could retire at age 55 with 90% of his salary.

[Armstead]

34. A post inspired by this thread...."A Nightmare Presidential Debate"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x747749

[whathehell]

35. Those in France?

[whathehell]

36. The ones in France?

[Dappleganger]

37. Certainly not my father, CWA member of over 30 years.

He was screwed out of money when he took early retirement and they continue to screw him over.

[Zax2me]

39. Police, south Florida. My brother is one of them.

They also cash in upwards of 60-80 thousand dollars worth of 'unpaid' sick time accumulated, depending on time served.
The current system, however, is under attack by rep governor Rick Scott.
You dare not mention his name in my brother's presence.

[bemildred]

40. Ought to be all of us. nt

[ben_thayer]

41. Retired 2 years ago (age 57) w/40% and full medical for life.

I was an AFSCME member working in a correctional facility for 15 yrs.

[LWolf]

42. I won't get 80% of my wages if I retire at age 99.

Sometimes people in my union are offered "bonuses" for retiring early; usually when another round of education cuts mean another round of teacher RIFs. Those bonuses, added to the normal retirement package, don't add up to anywhere close to 80%.

[Better Believe It]

43. Thanks Obama! I didn't realize union workers got golden parachutes after just a few years of work.

I thought that was only for corporate CEO's, members of Congress and retired Presidents.

[Capitalocracy]

72. Kinda makes you want to be in a union, doesn't it? nt

[Mimosa]

123. Heck yes, but unions in US have been busted.

I don't know anybody who has a union job.

[Capitalocracy]

139. Me neither, and my industry needs them

All independent contractors, in many cases not even coming close to minimum wage. We're moving to the dark ages.

Some people are still pretty happy about it, though... because working at home, they don't have to pay for gas, and in the end, it comes out a better deal than a regular low-wage job with a commute

[suffragette]

44. First he used the Reaganesque term "cadillac plans"

to go after union health plans and fuel resentment that unions have actually managed to negotiate decent health care (generally by trading this for higher wages). Now he's using a similar divisive tactic to attack pensions they worked and fought and made concessions for.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/12/obama_health_care_npr_intervie.html

[Bluebear]

53. + + +

[shanti]

136. that's it

:(

[FarCenter]

45. 85% sounds like people who do a lot of overtime in their last year

One scam is to do lots of overtime in the last year to boost the pension. This is possible when the rule allow people to bid on overtime based on seniority.

Pensions should be calculated based on the regular pay rate for the last several years of employment, not on actual compensation in the last year.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

94. It's called "spiking"

[Hestia]

98. Scam? If it is allowed, management is not complaining, how is this a scam? Put your life on the

line as a Peace Office, EMT, etc., for 35+ years and then we'll talk. If not, "scam" pertaining to compensation is just Heritage Foundation talk. Grades that are lower generally do not get any type of overtime, it's not allowed. Strictly 8-5, of which their pensions are calculated.

[FarCenter]

110. It's unfair to employees who can't indulge in the practice

And it jeopardizes the pensions of other employees by ballooning the unfunded liability of the pension fund. And it increases state borrowing costs due to the impairment of the states credit rating.

[Philippine expat]

46. Enlist in the military

at 18, retire 37 years later at age 55 with 92.5% of your pay
and you don't even have to join a union

[Courtesy Flush]

49. If we'd just save our bonus checks, we could retire even earlier.

Oh, that's right... We DON'T GET bonus checks!

When the economy is good, we don't benefit from it at all. In my office, a good economy means that my agency is a revolving door of new workers who quit after a year, once they learn that the pay and work suck. In a bad economy, people call us pampered and over paid.

My wife's uncle died last week. He worked as a river boat captain, and never went to college, yet his pay was over $200K per year. I'm a college graduate, and will probably never make $60K. We do our sacrificing from the day we're hired, but when the economy is down, we're the first to get cut.

[REP]

50. Depends upon how much time in title, but I know two unions

I was in both of them (retired in my 30s at 50%, full medical).

[Go2Peace]

147. You will have to prove that claim. I don't know of any union in the country

That allows a retirement in your 30s. You may be "eligible" after working and leaving service in your 30's, but the vast majority won't let you actually collect until 55-60. In the last decade most states have changed their retirement plans already and it is rare to actually be able to get benefits before at least 60-62 and then only if you have 20-25 years in the plan.

Of course there are a few outlyers, but not that many except those that were grandfathered from years ago.

[REP]

177. What, you want me to post my personal financial documents?

Don't believe me. I don't care.

[Go2Peace]

191. Thought so.

No, I don't believe it. Sorry.

[Courtesy Flush]

51. This mentality will destroy the middle class

Even the president is on the bandwagon, saying that good jobs are bad for the country.

[we can do it]

82. [phone]

yep and the meme is even being spread here - cut the shit out, for christsake its killing us.

[Go2Peace]

148. Meme: "Good jobs are bad for the country". You hit it on the head!!!

That is very much the current meme. Are we entering a dark age or what?

[librechik]

55. military and quarterbacks

[florida08]

58. if anyone gets that power to them

My husband has been with IBEW for almost 20 years, Florida is a right to work state. He had so much trouble with contractors keeping work he finally had to leave. Can't pay much into a pension if you're not working. We still pay our dues though.

[Marnie]

60. Isn't Obama so clever. He didn't name the union.

Guys he is a Repocon. He is Duhbya with brains.
He needs to be called out on this by the LSM because it is almost certainly a lie.

There is the possibility the most upper management or political appointees in the civil service, or career officer military do have these kinds of benefits, but hourlies.

No way, Obama.

You lie.

[TNLib]

61. I think I've known some TVA folks that would fit that description

and they are Union part of EA Engineering Association.

[cstanleytech]

62. I think some of you are missing something for whatever reason

and that is the part where he says

"not every program in government is working perfectly and we’ve got to make adjustments to become more efficient and more productive, just like the private sector does."

Now you may or may not agree with him on other issues but really, does anyone here think that the governments as efficient as it could be?

[amborin]

64. Obama said, "more efficient and more productive....like the private sector"????

that straight out of the corporate mean & lean agenda....

[cstanleytech]

86. So you think its efficient, thanks.

[amborin]

105. don't twist my post or impute things to me that I never stated

[cstanleytech]

115. So you dont think its efficient? My apologies

then for the mistake.

[sabrina 1]

141. Name the Unions that he is talking about. What workers

are retiring at 55 with 80% of their pay?? And why is he always begrudging the working class getting a little extra but has ZERO to say about his Billionaire Friends who stole the wealth of this country.

And is HE tightening HIS belt? Is HE going to retire after his 4 or 8 years as president with HIS pension??

This president is sounding more and more Republican every day.

As far as I am concerned, if someone who risks their lives every day for 35 years gets a little extra when they retire, it's fine by me. Why is it NOT fine by this 'Democratic' President? Why do we never hear him talk about the HUGE bonuses taken by his Wall St. Buddies who were bailed out by those 'Union Workers' AFTER they screwed up this country through corruption and cheating and scamming of investors and homeowners, and WHEN is he going to take the advice of the Senate Committee that spent two years investigating the biggest Bank Heist in History, and start prosecuting rather rewarding those criminals?? He's worried about a few people who work hard for a living getting a liveable pension, but has ZERO to say about the criminals who are the reason for the position this country is in.

More and more I find myself wondering who this man is. And I know I am not alone.

[joeglow3]

168. Example: $87,000 at 47 for life. Works in same job (in neighboring city) for $70,000

http://www.omaha.com/article/20100323/NEWS01/703239872

This is leading to HUGE fights with the union in Omaha. In many cases, it has gotten too obscene.

[RaleighNCDUer]

209. 'Efficiency' is not efficient.

Making people work longer hours for less pay is what KILLS an economy. We've seen it happen all across the work spectrum - lay off people, parcel their work out to other workers, those workers are forced into unpaid overtime, burn out, and then are replaced by younger, cheaper workers who don't know they are expected to do two jobs.

Fuck ANYBODY who thinks 'efficiency' is good for the American worker.

[WinkyDink]

88. What is?

[amborin]

106. guess Obama wants something akin to this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1747219

[Bluebear]

114. "just like the private sector does!" - which we bail out:

[suffragette]

137. Yep, they're very efficient at at raiding public coffers

and awarding themselves bonuses for doing so.

Efficient at figuring how to to get enormous amounts of corporate welfare while campaigning for Austerity for the rest of us.

[sabrina 1]

145. How about Wall St.??? Is that working efficiently?

Did he say anything about the trillions of dollars the working class has had to spend to bail them out after their criminal behavior destroyed this country's economy? Why is he worried about a few people getting pensions that if they live to be hundred, won't add up to the bonuses WE donated to those crooks? Has he talked about this at all? What does he have against the working class? Now that he's part of the wealthy class, I guess he sympathizes with them and worries that they might not be able to maintain all their of Mansions and Yachts if the working class is getting anything at all?

I can't wait for him to try to tell the working class how much he cares them this time!! Too bad we didn't know more about this man before rewarding him with the great job and pension and other perks he will be getting, thanks TO that working class he so despises.

[cstanleytech]

214. Yes its all obamas fault

:sarcasm:

[sabrina 1]

218. I asked a question. Is this meant to be a response

to my question? It appears to be in the wrong place! :eyes:

[cstanleytech]

222. If you were complaining/whining about obama again

then its in the right spot unlike your post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1749458&mesg_id=1755619 :)

[sabrina 1]

223. I don't 'complain' about 'people' I criticize policies.

As for the linked post, it was in the correct place. Reread that comment thread and you may understand it.

[Nay]

159. "does anyone here think that the governments(sic) as efficient as it

could be?"

Here we go -- that damn gubbmint is so darn inefficient compared to our Godly and wonderful private sector!

As a worker bee for a large private corporation, I can assure all the repub assholes that the private sector is not only not as efficient as it could be, it is LESS efficient than a decently run govt because it pays out all sorts of cash to the owners and rich people who suck off its teat. Enough already with that inefficiency shit! A decent job at a good wage is not inefficiency!!!!!

[cstanleytech]

213. Good post, to bad though that I didnt say nor do I think private sector is better

as then your tirade would have actually been warranted.

[Jim_Shorts]

63. Where have I heard this frame before? Oh that's right Scott Walker

A unionized public worker, a tea party republican and a wall street banker are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The wall street banker reaches across the table and takes 11 cookies, looks at the tea partier and says "Watch out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie"

This is 100% republican frame, the argument shouldn't be why we need to cut benefits of unionized workers but how do we strengthen unions and get a larger piece of the pie for the 99% of the rest of the working class.

I don't know if Obama is the Manchurian candidate or his true colors are just more evident these days but if a republican gave that speech to a bunch of democrats, they would boo him off stage.

[Mimosa]

133. ^ LOVE! the joke! So true ^

Jim, welcome to D.U. :D

[onethatcares]

65. I think that my dad did.

and I'm glad he did. The company signed the contracts as well as the union members voted on them. It seems the companies only want to renege.

In all seriousness, how many of us have pensions? we might have IRAs, 401ks and savings accounts but we sure as hell don't have pensions.

[shanti]

66. i can answer that

most people don't retire at 55, more like 60, but it's a personal decision. i'm in california and the answer depends upon a lot of things, but mostly it depends upon your years in service AND your union. i only had 21 years in as support staff. my gross retirement benefit was a bit less than half my gross pay. however, a coworker who was at my same level, but with 38 years in, was receiving about 80% of her income. it certainly wasn't a lot though!

[WillyT]

69. Depends On Their Negotiated Contract Doesn't It ???

:shrug:

[Capitalocracy]

70. With the amount of unemployment we have and the amount of capital the wealthy control...

everyone should retire at 55 with full wages.

[CreekDog]

78. shared sacrifice, the rich pay more taxes because that's fair

and our limited pensions and adequate health care plans (because without them we can't afford health care) are considered sacrifices that middle class folks should make.

because paying a little more in taxes for a multi millionaire is the same as a middle class person taking a haircut on their pension and paying more for medical care on that shaved pension.

how does his definition of fairness go again?

he really is talking like a Republican sometimes. :wtf:

[madville]

80. Mainly "high-risk" government jobs these days

Cops, Firemen, people who work in prisons, etc.

[hay rick]

83. Civil service retirement.

Federal employees under the old civil service retirement system can retire at 80% of their "high three average" after 41 years and 10 months of creditable service. Obviously, nobody reaches that service level at age 55. Also, the high three average method of calculation virtually assures that the pension will be less than 80% of the employee's final pay rate.

The CSRS was phased out in 1987 in favor of FERS, which features a smaller defined benefit pension supplemented by social security benefits and the thrift savings plan (employer match up to 5% of salary).

[emsimon33]

84. Higher education after about 30 years and at least 63 years old

at least in California. But that may be changing. Most of the higher education faculty members I know are working well into their 70s; I don't personally know of any who are retiring at 63 even if they could.

[WinkyDink]

87. It doesn't matter if it is fact or fiction; what matters is Obama's attitude towards the idea.

[Desertrose]

90. ...and I find that rather concerning.

What happened to our *Dem* president??

[WinkyDink]

102. Perzackly.

[Karmadillo]

91. If those deadbeat retired union people want money, let them earn it by giving speeches to the

corporations they've done favors for over the years. They can make millions.

http://m.ibtimes.com/bush-clinton-speaking-fees-149338.html

May 20, 2011 3:51 PM EDT
Like Clinton, Bush Raking In Big Money On Speaking Circuit

Former president George W. Bush is earning big bucks making speeches, with a fee of between $100,000 and $150,000 per appearance.

According to iWatch News, Bush has raked in about $15 million on a speaking circuit since vacating the Oval Office, while maintaining a relatively low public profile.

Bush’s spokesman David Sherzer told iWatch that Bush has made about 140 paid speeches both in the US and abroad since his presidential term expired – almost all of which are closed to the press.

iWatch reported that when Bush declined an offer from President Barack Obama to appear at Ground Zero in New York following the killing of Osama bin Laden was killed, he was actually preparing to make three private speeches during that week.

Bush’s predecessor, Bill Clinton, has also made a mint making speeches around the world.

According to CNN, Clinton amassed $65 million in speaking fees from 2001 to 2009. In 2009 alone, he took home $7.5 million from 36 speeches.

more...

[sulphurdunn]

95. What's wrong with retiring

after 20 years on 80% of your highest salary? The top corporate CEOs can work a company into the ground for a few years and golden parachute away with millions. I wouldn't be surprised if the average hedge fund manager expects perks and a severance package equal to or in excess of his working income for some time. Obama is trying to play union workers for chumps. If he wants to balance the budget he needs to go where the money is and tax it!

[madfloridian]

97. Nothing is wrong with it. I would be all for it.

Except I don't think that many unions offer such a benefit. I taught over 30 years, and I am nowhere near 80% of my salary. Those who retire from now on will get far less.

I wish our president felt it was a good thing also.

[Mimosa]

134. Many, even most, corporations employ many 'independent contactors', offer NO BENEFITS

I think most people who have 9-5 type jobs don't seem to be aware how many working Americans are self-employed and don't get retirement plans or company subsidised health care plans. People, it's getting ROUGH out here, especially for those who are over age 50. :(

[madfloridian]

142. I think they do now.

I know teachers are losing their jobs and being replaced with TFA with 5 weeks training. Some were near pension.

The last two years has been devastating.

That doesn't make us wrong to have pensions, to be lucky enough to have them. It should not cause the president to single out unions.

He is unnecessarily pitting one group of workers against others, just as Arne has done in education.

[sulphurdunn]

179. That's true

for most working Americans. Independent contracting for many companies is just a ruse to avoid pensions, decent wages and health care.

[RiggedUS]

172. Simple ... you cannot FUND it ...

Simple ... you cannot fund this without ludicrous rates of return on contributions ...
Or ... dumping a large bill on someone else ..

[TheKentuckian]

96. Barack W. Hoover just keeps on digging and kicking dirt on working folks and the poor

[Pryderi]

100. Actually, my father did 20 years ago and he's a republican, retired teacher.

[madfloridian]

101. You know I remember hearing some teachers talking about that...

when I first started teaching many years ago. I am not sure of the exact %, but it was pretty high. It has really gone down now for years, I would say maybe 50% the last few years here. But the ones retiring after Scott gets done with us will have much less if any.

[Lorien]

103. Wow, Obama said that? Could have come out of Romney's mouth just as easily

He really is pushing those GOP talking points, isn't he? He PERSONALLY will get a six figure income for life for four years of capitula..."work". He can give that up if he wants to show that he's willing to "share the burden".

[upi402]

104. tired of it

fed up

will never vote for anti-worker candidate again. not ever.

[thesquanderer]

107. typo?

re: " If a public sector employee is able to retire at 55 with 80 percent of their wages, and the average public sector employee has got a 401(k) that they’ve just seen decline by about 20 percent and they have no idea how they’re going to retire"

That makes no sense... I assume the second instance of "public" was supposed to be "private"... I wonder if he misspoke or if the transcription is messed up...

[Jakes Progress]

108. Obama is not Clinton. He is reagan.

[Bluebear]

151. .

[Jakes Progress]

109. A really, really stupid point the president is trying to make.

First, it isn't nearly a real situation that his cascading across America. I'm sure that he and rush limpballs can find a worker or two who did. They will use that as proof.

Now. The real problem is that he is griping about people retiring. We have massive unemployment. Maybe he needs to read a newspaper or something. That way he would have some clue. We have massive unemployment and he wants to fuss about making people keep working as long as possible. That means fewer available jobs.

My wife and I are both retired. We would like some more money, but we can get by right now. No trips to Europe or new cars or dining out every night, but we can get by. If we use our experience and background to go back to work, that kicks two people out of jobs.

This isn't rocket science. Why is he being so dense. The more people that retire, the more people go to work. We need people going to work. Duh. He's got to stop thinking like a 1985 republican.

[shanti]

138. yes

:thumbsup:

[madrchsod]

111. my wife is a union official that makes 11.00 an hour with no retirement

[cstanleytech]

120. Ouch, if thats before union dues and federal/state taxes then that sucks.

[madrchsod]

178. yes it is......she has to work at least 15-20 hours overtime to make ends meet

my social security check pays for the mortgage. of course i have`t had an increase because there`s NO inflation.

[dflprincess]

113. Before you know it, he'll be talking about "welfare queens"

and claiming that people on Social Security are living better than they did when they were working.

[Flatulo]

118. I know that for police and firefighters, they can really boost their

pensions by working lots of overtime in their final three years. The formula is a little wierd, but I do know a retired cop who makes (he claims) over 80% of his former salary, and he quit at 52 after 30 years. His last three years he worked 80 hour weeks.

[jonthebru]

121. He has his facts messed up and confused.

The Police where I live can retire with 25 years service and 60% of their pay. As they serve longer the % goes up until they get to 75% I think. So if a person becomes a cop at 21 they can retire at 46 with about 3 grand a month. If they become a chief or nearly as high their retirement is 5 or 6 grand... But they pay for it.

[JDPriestly]

122. Police officers and firemen? Maybe military officers?

Info on military retirement amounts''http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/retired-pay/computing-retired-military-pay

And -- one example of pensions for public employees in California:

The Salinas Californian requested public employee pension data for 16 different Monterey County agencies from the state retirement fund. All told, the paper received pension information for 2,940 retirees from the sampling of Monterey County agencies. Here’s a look at what the numbers revealed:
ª 69 retirees’ pensions are more than $100,000 a year
ª 1,502 pensioners receive less than $20,000 annually
ª The median annual payout is $19,406.
Each employee group and government agency negotiates different contracts with different benefits. One common pension formula:
ª Most public safety workers, such as police officers and firefighters, receive 3 percent of their highest salary for every year worked if they retire at the age of 50.
ª Other public employees commonly receive pensions amounting to 2 percent of their highest salary for every year worked if they retire at the age of 55.
ª Funding for the pensions comes from contributions made by both the employing government agency and the worker. Returns from investments made by the state’s retirement ®system are supposed to make up the difference.
Public employee pension plans have a guaranteed payout, meaning the annual income of the retiree is set by a contract and a formula. Under nonpension retirement plans, the amount a retiree receives depends on what has been invested and the returns on those investments.

http://www.seiu521.org/2011/average-monterey-county-pensioners-may-not-warrant-the-headlines/

Mods -- I believe that is printed as just one paragraph of the article.

Obama may have lost some votes with that one -- especially from police officers who may not be solidly Democratic.

That statement shows a lack of knowledge that is incredible.

It is the highly ranked public officials -- the equivalents of CEOs in the private economy and the heroes who do very risky jobs that get the best pensions.

The highly ranked officials get too much. They are paid well enough during their working lives to save for themselves and get reasonable pensions, but the heroes deserve to be well paid in their retirement, in my opinion.

[Jim_Shorts]

128. Obamas bus tour visiting Mich., Minn., Iowa., & Illinois

Is he avoiding Wisconsin? Hope his bus doesn't accidentally cross the border, that would show too much union support!

(56 recs, 126 posts lol)

[paland99]

129. In Calif, that means you've worked 40 years

And started at 15. Unless you were a police officer or a fireman. And I think the Correctional Officers have a different contract. But for regular workers, its 2% at 55 so you would have had to work for 40 years.

[BlueCheese]

130. This meme is as noxious as Reagan's Cadillac-driving welfare queen.

Right now, I'd like for Obama to start triangulating, so that he'd start putting some distance between him and the Republicans.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

131. Retire?

This union member will not be able to do that.

[Rincewind]

135. I retired two years ago

at age 55. My pension is more than I averaged the last 5 years I worked, and is almost as much as I made in 2008, my last good year. I am in the carpenter's union, and retired after 36 years. And I know people who are making more from their pensions than they made working.

[shanti]

140. that is correct

without the usual deductions, if you worked 40 years, you are at 80%+. at that point, it's a no brainer to retire. it is rare though.

[cali]

152. well,

my ex just retired at 58 at close to 80% of his wages. He worked for state government for 40 years.

[WCGreen]

154. If you start at 20 as a cop or a fireman, you probably have to retire

at that age due to the wear and tear on the body.

Professional military people are usually out around then, collecting full benefits and still working.

A lot of teacher who worked in the same system since they graduated...

A lot of people can retire at 80% at 55.

[Fruittree]

155. I think it's important to understand the entire

context of what he was saying by reading the whole exchange..It's available at Salon.com.

[BirminghamExaminer]

156. Not only is that statement ridiculous.....

what the company has given, the company can take away. My husband's uncle retired from the phone company with a pension, and health care but they dropped his health care in 2007.

[KansDem]

157. "Shared sacrifice?"

:rofl:

Okay, Mr. President, let's start with the wealthiest 2%, the oil companies, corporations that pay no taxes, MIC, Wall Street and the big banks, to name a few.

Then we'll talk about the rest of us...

[quaker bill]

160. If I retire after 30 years, I can get 48%

Of course in my case this will require working until I am 69. I will be lucky to make 60 before Gov. Scott lays me off....

[JVS]

162. International Brotherhood of Unicorn Jockeys and Leprechauns.

[mrdmk]

164. This comes out of the University of Chicago Economics Department

Must control wage inflation. Wage inflation is the biggest problem concerning the economic health of this country according to UCED. Keep wages, likewise, the retirement low, and economy will meet 0 to 3% inflation rate year after year.

This is bullshit. From year 1998 to 2000, this country had a 3.5% unemployment rate when the expected is 4 to 6% to keep wages in check. Inflation was still below 3% during those years.

Now this country's unemployment rate is at 8.8 to 9.1% depending on adjustments and who you are talking to. Inflation rate is well below the 3% mark. Why the sudden change in the stats? It may come as a surprise to some, the answer is a portion in this society (the rich) want to back-track on their financial obligations. Why? Because they can! Nothing more, nothing less...

[madrchsod]

182. what wage inflation? wages have`t increased since 73-74.

in 1974 i was making 10-11 dollars an hour and no co pay for insurance. i also had a no cost pension plan and a guaranteed contract.

that`s when the unions provided the foundation for this country to stand on. that foundation is gone.

[mrdmk]

202. Like I said, "nothing more, nothing less!' n/t

[newfie11]

165. It ain't the IBEW n/t

[BREMPRO]

166. real life example.. my brother in law: 90K per year pension with full medical for

him and his family after working 25 years for the California State prison system in their union...at least 80% of what he was making i'm sure.. he's 55.. ironically he's a tea partier...

[vssmith]

167. With all the unemployment it is desirable that people retire young.

[Lazlo301]

170. Come to Omaha, NE.

The city Police and Fire departments have contracts that just
about equal retirement at 55 with 80% of pay.  Labor Unions
are a wonderful thing.  My father was a member of Local 22 for
almost his entire working career.  Unions put the average
worker on a equal playing field with management.  However,
Unions can get out of control if management allows it.  Its a
balance. Once one side or the other has more power it is out
of balance and it is not good for anyone.  In Omaha, the
police and fire contracts could very easily bankrupt the city.
 

[RiggedUS]

171. Example: Teachers in Illinois ... where Obama is from!

Sadly this story has the exception / element of truth ...

Teachers retire on 70% of their FINAL salary ...


For years here, there was a scam that boosted their salaries ~30% (10%/year?) for the last 3 years ...
i.e. $100k/ year --> $130/year ...
retiree gets 70% of $130k --> $91k/year ...

i.e. retires on 91% of final salary ...

(The numbers come from a music teacher I investigated)

Sadly these abuses seriously poison the general case ... but they are real!

[madfloridian]

181. In what capacity did you "investigate" teachers in IL?

And why say sadly? I think it would be great if this were true about retiring on 80%. It would indicate a nation that valued education instead of denigrating teachers.

[WinkyDink]

183. As a PA retired teacher on 1/3 that, I do not believe this for a second.

[RiggedUS]

208. Please read reply ...

[RiggedUS]

207. I say sadly because ...

Funding a $100k pension requires $2M in savings ... more than that given the
Virtually nobody in the private sector can generate that level of savings in a 401(k) ...

As to facts that no-one can believe ... stop believing and just start researching ...

See ... http://www.familytaxpayers.org/salary.php ... name Killinger ... 2001, 2002, 2003
See ... http://www.thechampion.org/pension.asp

There are plenty of others ...

And this excludes health care coverage !

As to teachers ... my sister is one, my daughter is one ... but these returns are simply way out of touch ...
NONE of my 60 year old work colleagues, all out of work, have anything like these pensions, or required savings ... even though they worked in tech and several have Masters ...

Illinois has a massive unfunded liability and has raised income taxes for 3% to 5% --- very regressive --- hoping to put off the reckoning ...

These examples are simply unsustainable ... and were unfundable when they got through the system.

The sad truth is that those exposed to global competition and a corrupt immigration system saw their careers and pensions massively eroded in the 1990's-2000's, while those sheltered inside the US did not.

That said ... the solution to the Global Financial Meltdown is not in whacking teachers.

BUT ... as I said, there' always a grain of truth behind these stories ...

[PatSeg]

173. Air traffic controllers

retire at 55. It is mandatory, but don't know what percentage of wages they earn.

[russspeakeasy]

174. According to the Prez, "it's Washington's fault"

:wtf:

[cstanleytech]

225. I assume he is refering to the senate and congress.

[Honeycombe8]

180. Postal workers can, I think. Career vets can, I think. CONGRESS can! Those

are teh ones that come to mind.

I don't know if teachers can. I'm not familiar with any other public sector unions, so I don't know about those, if they exist.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

184. Is there something fundamentally wring with my outlook that I am not horrified by the prospect?

President Obama is presenting this to us as though we are supposed to be horrified by the idea of someone retiring young on a comfortable pension, but I find that to be a greatly desirable social outcome. I wish that happened for more people. What am I supposed to be afraid of in this scenario?

[spooky3]

186. not only that, but those people free up jobs for younger workers, AND with the retirees' pensions,

they are still buying products and services, which produces more job opportunities.

[madfloridian]

187. It's propaganda, gone on for years. Trying to make unions look greedy.

More power to people who can retire like that, I just question that it's as ordinary as Obama made it sound. I taught over 30 years and got nowhere near that.

[lupinella]

190. Ironic.

I'm having to drop my union membership, or at least take a break, this week because I can't afford it after layoff in April.
Am extremely pro-union, even my rather pathetic one, & will continue to stay in touch with mine so I can re-join at first chance, but as an Orlando-an it is extremely hard to stay with this union due to its complete lack of sway. Sadly, they are familiar with stories such as mine & deal with it frequently. In all of central Florida there is only one place to work full-time for this union, and three places to work part time - all of whom hire many of the same people for jobs, thus disallowing many of us to keep our cards active unless we have the resources to constantly travel out of town.
A friend of mine belongs to our sister union & works a LOT. He's been a member of the union since his thirties... he's currently in his 80s & still having to work.
Another reason for me to want to escape this area.
:cry:

[Critters2]

192. Public school teachers in Illinois.

I went to the state "normal" university for my undergrad. The vast majority of my college friends became teachers, but I didn't. I'll be 55 in 3 years. All of those friends will be able to retire at 55. I'll still have 12 years to work. What was I thinking?!

[madfloridian]

198. At 80% at that age?

In FL we could retire at 55 after 30 years, but not at 80%.

[hack89]

193. How about retiring at 40 with 50 to 67 percent pay and free medical for life?

that's why Central Falls in RI is bankrupt - that's what they gave their police and firemen.

[Bombero1956]

196. I did

I retired from the fire department last year after 32 1/2 years on the job. I have an 80% pension because I started at age 22.

[Angleae]

199. Active duty military would be over 90% at that point.

[ItNerd4life]

200. Illinois. Sometimes it's average of last 3 years of wages, so they increase pay the last 3 years

Many don't retire at 80% of their wages, it can be more than that. I've seen this happen with city workers and with school administrators. It's disgusting.

Example: Normally wages at $60k, last 3 years wages jump to $90k. They then retire at 80% of $90k.

[Ucurve]

201. NYS Examples for Illustration

New York State has so many different pension plans for its workers (and participating local government workers) that it would make your head spin. Currently, there are five major plans (called "tiers"). Most current covered employees are Tier 4 (hired between 1983 and 2009).

A Tier 4 worker can generally retire after 30 years of service; this includes the DMV worker, the highway flagman, etc.--the state police have a different plan entirely. Theoretically, I suppose, you can retire at age 55, having joined the civil service at age 25. (Obama got this one right.)

However, Tier 4 retirees who retire before age 62 get a permananetly reduced benefit; in the case of our hypothetical 55-year-old, a 27% haircut. The haircut is taken off your pension benefit, which is calculated as follows: If you have fewer than 20 years of service, your basic benefit is calculated as years of service, divided by 60, times your final salary; if 20-30 years. it's service years, divided by 50, times final salary; if more than 30, you get your 30-year benefit (calculated as above), plus 1.5% of your final salary for each full year over 30.

Our hypothetical 55 year-old, then, gets a 27% reduction from a 30-year pension, which is 60% of final salary, or 73% of 60%, which is 43.8% of final salary. A 62-year old retiring after 30 gets 60% of final salary. To get to Obama's 80% at retirement would require working to age 75 1/3, theoretically possible, but I know of no one who got hired in 1983 at 25 who was planning on retiring in 2033.

Yeah, you can work overtime in your immediate pre-retirement year to push your "final salary" above the final salary as it is commonly understood (your statutory wage), but there are caps on how high you can push it. Mathematically, you really can't boost it more than 21% as result.

Best case scenario for a Tier 4 worker at 55 out at 30 (though again, theoretically, you could've gone to work for the highway department right out of high school at 18) is 53% of your statutory (hourly) wage for life, for a Tier 4 retiree at 62 (with 30 years), 60½%, and for an 80%-seeker, retirement after 43 years.

Tier 5 is less generous than Tier 4; Tiers 1, 2 and 3 (which have fewer and fewer active workers and living retirees each passing day) were more generous. Tier 4 is the center of gravity for most current state workers, the first of whom can begin to retire in 2013, after 30 years. Governor Cuomo has floated the idea of a Tier 6, BTW. Also, in the interest of complete accounting, pension benefits, unlike working-life wages, are not subject to the New York State income tax.

[SHRED]

204. A 2%@55 scenario

Which a lot of public workers have.

Say you work 30 years:

2 x 30 = 60% of pay.

Wow...big deal.


---

[dotymed]

205. It seems EVERYONE is asking the wrong question.

So what if some obscure group of people actually retire with 80% of a living wage?

What about the billionaires and the thousands of elites who are paid millions of dollars in bonuses every year? They pay hardly any taxes, then they invest it and pay no taxes. Fuck his "shared sacrifice" BULLSHIT!

[cstanleytech]

224. So, explain something to me.

Dont congress and the senate have to agree to raising taxes and didnt he ask them recently (I say ask because no president can command them to pass legislation the last time I checked) to do just that but the republicans gave him a big middle finger on that idea?

[HDPaulG]

210. Obama is fail!

Phuck him when he insults the working class, it's not just Union employee's that have pensions. Where is his criticism about Golden parachute's, stock options, CEO pay...You know...shared sacrifice. Now we now why his #'s are sinking...charisma only goes so far. And now the "Black Caucus" is raising hell...Obama...wake the phuck up.

[kick-ass-bob]

216. Wrong Question.

"If a public sector employee is able to retire at 55 with 80 percent of their wages, and the average public sector employee has got a 401(k) that they’ve just seen decline by about 20 percent and they have no idea how they’re going to retire,"


The question is not "why are public employees able to do this"

it is

"why are private employees not able to do this?"

When our President asks the wrong question, WTF are we supposed to do?

Christ. :mad:

[lonestarnot]

227. Facts? Apparently no one needs 'em.

[dkf]

228. My parents both retired at 55. My dad started taking home more pay than when he was working.

Both my parents get their full pension, a nice social security check, full medical coverage, and full reimbursement of their Medicare premiums.

They are former government workers and union members.