Do you feel like you have to defend your homeschooling?

[The Straight Story]

Do you feel like you have to defend your homeschooling?

I have a friend that started homeschooling last year and loved it so much she has pulled her other child from school to homeschool as well.

...

But despite that great experience, my friend is worried about seeing her old mom friends from school and having to defend her choice.

She asked me last week, “What do I tell them?” I said, “You tell them your child excelled and you both enjoyed it so much that you’re adding your other child to your home classroom.”

I do think that homeschooling mothers get asked a lot of questions about why they are doing it and what materials they are using. I know I quizzed a high-school friend who homeschools about her program this summer. I didn’t mean my questions judgmentally. I was just curious, but I hope she took it that way and I didn’t offend her.

http://blogs.ajc.com/momania/2011/08/15/do-you-feel-like-you-have-to-defend-your-homeschooling/?cxntfid=blogs_momania

My x and I homeschool our daughter. It works for us. For some public schools work. For others private schools.

I like having a choice. The program my daughter is in does not cost anything, she is a year or more ahead of similar students in public schools, and she can move ahead (or stay behind) as needed.

It has worked out well - so has public school (my daughter went to one in the first grade in CA and it worked out really well). Our life, our daughter, our choice.

Key word (again and again on many subjects) is choice. I can find fault in public, private, home schools - just like I can in unix, linux, windows, apple, etc - to me choice is a big part of diversity, and to each their own.

[Bluebear]

1. Not stepping into this pile.

[Ohio Joe]

2. I don't really want to either but...

It should be interesting... Have some popcorn :popcorn:

[The Straight Story]

4. Pile? You call choice and being able to decide how to educate your child a pile?

Either you are for choice or you are not, I am not sure how that translates into "Not stepping into this pile"

I though WE ON THE LEFT were all about CHOICE.

[Bluebear]

8. LOL nice try

[The Straight Story]

12. That's all you got?

Can you define 'pile' and what you are really saying?

"Nice try" really does not say much.

let me make it easy - are you for or against people being able to have the choice to home school?

I am for it.

[Bluebear]

13. Pile as in landmine topic now go downthread and debate to your hearts content

[The Straight Story]

15. Landmine topic here on DU? Why is it such? Are we not a progressive and pro choice group???

Why in the hell is this even an issue here?

Let me ask it real simple:

Are you for people having the choice to home school or are you not?

[Bluebear]

17. Your OP asked 'Do you feel like you have to defend your homeschooling?'

I don't home school, I have no opinion. Later.

[The Straight Story]

19. If you had no opinion then why did you post? Surely you have some opinion on it all

or you would have not bothered to comment.

[LanternWaste]

221. Many of us simply enjoy the petulant posturing...

Many of us simply enjoy the petulant posturing and righteous rationalizations these threads bring rather than holding an opinion.

Threads like this are akin to watching wrestling-- not much substance, the rankings are fixed, and the costumes are funny-- but still, it's comedy gold all the way around.

[Warren DeMontague]

231. I'm considering taking bets on how long before you tie this to smoking bans in bars.

After all, WE ON THE LEFT are supposed to be in favor of choice, right?



By the way, I don't give a shit if people want to homeschool. Admittedly, most of the ones I've come across are of the Veggietales, Jesus Freak variety, more interested in saving their offspring from the sex-drenched clutches of satan's high schools than anything else. But, people should have the RIGHT to CHOOSE to homeschool.

Doesn't mean they have the RIGHT to never have anyone question their motives for doing so.

[ohheckyeah]

298. It seems you brought it up and made an issue out of it.

You have a right to home school your child. Is that not enough? Do you need validation?

[uppityperson]

77. No. We on the left are not all about CHOICE with everything. We can be for some choices, against

others. For instance, I DO like having the choice to homeschool kids, including having support services available, and I DO like having the choice of a safe legal hygienic abortion, but I do NOT like your having the choice to expose me to your cigarette smoke and I do NOT like having the choice to buy untested and unregulated antibiotics.

See?

[NashVegas]

89. Stop It

98% of the threads I've ever seen you start are introducing topics/stories that are obviously intended to spark strong opinions and court the controversy and flame wars that come along with it.

Accept that people are going to sock you in the jaw for it every now and then, or find a new hobby.

[Maat]

108. I don't accept it.

In fact, I now to turn to them and tell each one of the critics, "Luckily, YOU don't get to DICTATE how my child gets educated. It's a (relatively) free country!" THAT usually shuts them up; lately, I take pleasure in that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

264. Wow. Epitelium of subatomic thickness.

[LeftyMom]

3. Not really.

It helps that my kid's awesome. :D

[miss_hope27]

5. I agree..

I have been going through the same situation. My son will be in the 1st grade, and I have decided to continue home-schooling him. Now I have my personal issues which have pushed me into the decision for homeschool, but I think he has really benefited from it. He can already read just about anything I put in front of him. Even adult books.. My family thinks that he will be "weird" and that I am "crazy" for doing it.. I am honestly getting sick and tired of having to defend my decision..

[maxsolomon]

6. people just have natural concerns and suspicions about it.

it's normal because the institution of primary and secondary school is now normal. perhaps i should say normative.

you likely know why they're concerned:

1. homeschooling can be used by the very religious to keep their children from exposure to any contradicting ideas.
2. social interaction with a diverse group of children is good (sometimes) for children.
3. homeschooling typically requires that 1 partner have an adequate income to provide for the entire family, therefore there can be an economic factor to it.

my main worry is that it will produce more selfish, ignorant republicans. but i have no proof that it does, just concerns.

[miss_hope27]

9. Well, my main reason

for homeschooling right now has to do with extremely bad anxiety issues, panic disorder, etc.. I feel that once I am healthy enough I may very well send him to public school. I will tell you, I live in Alabama (originally from NY) and I am actually worried about the schools out here forcing Religion down his throat. The schools down here will go to any extent to indoctrinate children..

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. Schools there are forcefeeding religion? I hate that. nt

[maxsolomon]

173. wait - you homeschool the kid because of YOUR issues?

that plays right into home-schooling-is-bad cliches.

I don't want to beat you up, and i sincerely wish that you find inner peace, but please, don't make your child your caretaker. i say that as the 1st-born caretaker of an anxious mother. my adult relationships still suffer for it 40 years later.

[ohheckyeah]

299. I feel for you about the anxiety and panic disorder

as I had to deal with that in the past. However, you are using avoidance techniques to cope and that doesn't help the disorder plus it can teach your child to be anxious for no reason.

[The Straight Story]

14. point by point

1. homeschooling can be used by the very religious to keep their children from exposure to any contradicting ideas.
So? It can be used by those on the left too who don't want their kids to be a part of the RW and exposed to curriculum that promotes solely their ideals.

2. social interaction with a diverse group of children is good (sometimes) for children.
They have it - but it is not restricted to one grade level like in public schools. Home schools can (and often, though not always) be very social places. They are not as restricted as public schools.

3. homeschooling typically requires that 1 partner have an adequate income to provide for the entire family, therefore there can be an economic factor to it.
Not sure I get the point here. Is it bad that a couple, much like they did for many years, has one income and one in that family is a home maker? It certainly does not mean they are wealthy. I am sure not, nor are any that I know that homeschool. They just don't have a lot of the extras - my sister home schooled 3 kids and only recently got cable and internet.

"my main worry is that it will produce more selfish, ignorant republicans. but i have no proof that it does, just concerns."

It does not matter your worries. It is about adults having a choice. Either we want government to control our choices or we do not.

I don't.

[maxsolomon]

172. government control of our choices is not binary.

i want government to control my choice of automobiles to ones which are safe to drive, and fuel efficient, i want government to control who has access to a drivers license, i want government to control which weapons the general public can hoard.

but i don't want to eliminate the choice of home schooling for you.

so i want both choice and government control. you probably do too.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. It does produce quite a number of whackos who have no social skills

I've seen that up front because I've met plenty of homeschooling families. Spending time with one's family 24/7 is NOT the way to learn social skills 'out there' in life.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

33. then you don't know shit about homeschooling

from people that are really trying to educate their children. from your description it would seem that you have only been exposed to the religious nutters who homeschool to protect and indoctrinate their children.

we homeschool our girls. they are not with us 24/7, however. they participate in multiple enrichment programs and extracurricular activities. they interact with kids of all age-groups and socio-economic backgrounds. they are well spoken, polite and can carry on an intelligent conversation with anyone from a young child to an adult. they are learning far FAR more than they would learn in a public school (or private school) setting and they are being taught to THINK...unlike the pure regurgitation that is required by most public schools.

i don't feel the need to defend homeschooling, but i feel the need to educate the ignorant like you as to what homeschool can be about...and IS about for the parents who really are taking control of their kids' learning.

sP

[Sarah Ibarruri]

54. No, trust me, I do know plenty about homeschooling.

And while you are correct, that most homeschoolers are Bible-banging fundies who belong committed to mental institutions, even in the cases in which the parents are not whacko Bible-bangers, I still think homeschooling is a disservice to kids. Actually, homeschooling began with liberals, but it was quickly swept up by the right wing nutjob fascists, and that's pretty much the majority of homeschoolers today. They ADORE the fact that they can limit everything their kids can do.

Whether the homeschooler belongs to the majority of homeschooled right wing nutjob families, or to the handful of liberal families, I have indeed seen how homeschoolers get driven to "participate in multiple enrichment programs and extracurricular activities." Being driven to participate in multiple enrichment programs and extracurricular activities doesn't compensate the hours school-attending kids spend just being with other kids, and socializing in school. Being constantly under the watchful parental eye without a break, still constitutes control and domination, and kids eventually need to start exercising a bit of independence, something homeschooled kids don't get until they're 18 and by then it's too late.

That's not to say that kids don't survive all kinds of things. Kids do. From abuse, to being forced to be home -OR- under the watch and control of parents 24/7, many kids can survive all these things. Some, tho, turn out whacko or just weird, and don't quite fit into the society of their peers.

I do know a couple who send their kids to school, then help them (and tutor them) at home during homework time, and a bit on weekends. These kids have the best of both worlds: at tiny bit of homeschooling, and constant socialization with their peers.

No, I don't think driving kids to a place to 'socialize' once in a while is enough, and yes, I do think too many homeschooled kids turn out to be whackos that don't know how to handle themselves with their peers, and will remain that way for the rest of their life.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

72. you demonstrate again that you have no idea what you are talking about

other than your narrow view. that's fine. be closed minded and absolutist about it...my kids (and thousands of others) will be just fine without your approval. and they will have a better chance at succeeding with a deeper knowledge base, a better understanding of the world around them (through EXPOSURE to it) and a an ability to think that is simply NOT taught in public schools.


sP

[uppityperson]

73. Do public schools produce whackos with no social skills? I always thought there was something wrong

with large groups of single age kids being forced to be together for many hours a day. I like multi-age groups, prepares kids better for "real life" after school. Most jobs and groups of adults do not consist of single age people. Learning to deal with others in diverse groups, such as happens with those enrichment programs and extracurricular activities, is good.

Being constantly under the watchful teacher's eye without a break, still constitutes control and domination, and kids eventually need to start exercising a bit of independence, something public schooled kids don't get until they're 18 and by then it's too late.

[Maat]

341. You worded that very well.

Thanks.

[Generic Other]

92. My observations in a college classroom

Homeschoolers are unique -- often socially ill at ease with their peers in a classroom setting because they are unfamiliar with institutional learning or being with other students. They almost seem idiot savants at times because some aspect of their educations have been overly emphasized to the point of absurdity--reciting Bible verses from memory while never having heard of the Periodic Table of Elements, for example, or being a spelling whiz but not being able to write a sentence, etc. Important concepts ignored, gaps in education because the parents are only two pages ahead of their kids. The homeschool students do not always follow directions well or meet deadlines. Punctuality and attendance are sometimes issues too. Added to this, I think you get a fair share of fundie kids whose parents believe that reading King James constitutes an education. These kids refuse to even expose themselves to anything that challenges their thinking. I had a homeschool student who had never opened a magazine in her life because they were worldly and evil. Her reading level and skills were very low and I can only conclude that whatever her Bible thumping parents taught her barely qualifies as an education.

These are some of the downsides.

On the plus side, some very intense, interesting individuals who do not fit the molds that public school kids are poured into. And yes, it does present difficulties for these students. I think I can see why someone upthread said they were warned the homeschool kid would be "weird," although I am not sure that is a bad thing. They do stand out. Generally, at the top of the heap though. Weird misfits, bright capable individuals who have led too sheltered lives at times under the protective umbrellas of their mothers. So what? I would teach a class of them any day because it would be lively and interesting and untainted by prior negative public school experiences.

I had a homeschool student who won the National Spelling Bee one year and ended up with full ride scholarship offers from multiple ivy league colleges. And another who was editor of the school paper. And another who wrote vibrant poetry but could barely stutter out a sentence in class. All of them seemed wide-eyed and interested in learning about the world. But again, they did stand out because they lacked most of the negative attitudes toward education that are deemed "cool" by many of their peers.

[TransitJohn]

102. "Actually, homeschooling began with liberals, but it was quickly swept up by the right wing"

So were charter schools.

[Name removed]

286. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sense]

321. More baloney!

Home schooling does not mean you sit around the table with mom and a bible. Quit repeating NEA claptrap! We are never home! We are out in the world learning from every experience.

You are constantly commenting on subjects you know nothing about! Educate yourself before you start repeating discriminatory garbage. You can no more lump home schoolers together as one than any other people. We're all individuals!!!!!!!

[Odin2005]

7. I rec'd and it's still at 0. the authoritarian anti-homeschool brigade is out.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. I'm not against homeschooling for children that cannot handle schooling

Those that have disabilities of certain types might function schools.

[uppityperson]

78. My kid could not "handle" the bullying in late grade school so we home schooled part of the yr

Kid learned more, spent a lot of time with people of all ages (infants to elderly), was much happier than having to deal with a bunch of nasty brats and a teacher and principal who weren't much help.

[sense]

323. How about children who want to learn?

I think those children would clearly benefit from being without the confines of school and the dumbed down curriculum that ensures that no critical thinking will occur. Perhaps that's why you're unable to step outside your little box and think critically about just how constricted and confined you sound. You really seem to enjoy trying to cram people into boxes based on one little thing you think you know about them.

Off to unschooling for you! Scary, scary, there are no bounds to what you could learn.....

[Maat]

109. Exactly.

Most of the critics are AUTHORITARIANS (some might say that it's a BULLYING viewpoint).

[Name removed]

266. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Journeyman]

10. Both of my girls started in private school . . .

Their mother and I did this for a variety of reasons, some in response to our personal experiences, most because it seemed a better fit for both of them.

The eldest remained in private schools through college. The youngest asked to be put in public school after the third grade. And she's remained in public school since. With good luck and if classes remain opened, she'll graduate college in another few years.

Each girl's unique experience fit them and their personalities. On reflection, I'd have had it no other way. The decisions we made were in the best interest of each child and both excelled in ways that pleased us - and them - immensely.

Our lives, our children, ours - and their - decisions. Who can argue with another person's choices about their life or the selections they make with the best interest of their child in mind?

[mike_c]

11. nah-- my daughter home schooled and she's doing GREAT....

Has an advanced degree, lives in (currently) London. What's to defend?

[XemaSab]

16. All the people I know who were homeschooled are whip smart

I think regular schooling often holds kids back. They spend too much time not only on social drama but also on having the same crap repeated over and over again so that the lead-paint-exposed IQ 80 kids can get material that the bright kids learned three years before.

If I had kids, I would totally homeschool. It sounds like a lot of fun.

[The Straight Story]

18. Reminds me of a conversation I had today with a seasonal tech support guy

He is taking college courses to become an accountant. Most of his courses are online - he likes it because if he already knows something he can skip a class (or fast forward through a lecture) and focus his efforts on what he does not know.

I got bored in school because when I was a sophomore I was already studying things at a college level, but I still had to sit in class each day in Algebra going over and over the same stuff because others in class did not get it.

My daughter can take her time on issues she has issues with - but move ahead on things she is good at.

In other words she can move ahead on some things while getting help on things she needs help on. She is not some cog in a wheel, she is a person.

[theaocp]

56. That sounds rude.

I would hope the teacher would be industrious enough to empower the brighter children to become teachers and aid the "lead-paint-exposed IQ 80 kids" with their learning. I actually taught one of those students and it was one of the most heartbreaking experiences I've had as a teacher. I normally appreciate your insights, but you might want to consider your words more carefully. A votre sante.

[Mariana]

340. Why should a bright student have to waste time

teaching another student who's having a hard time? That's not their responsibility, and it's not what they're there for. The students who've already mastered the material should be spending their time learning new stuff, if that's what they want to do. I think they should be permitted to read books or work on projects of their choice while the teachers work with the slower students.

Of course, I have no problem with one student voluntarily helping another student, but they should never be made to do so.

[southernyankeebelle]

20. I have mixed feeling. My daughter-in-law sister spent part of her

unior high school in a school. She got into fights and finally her mother pulled her out and started home schooling her all the way through high school. However, she did well in homeschooling I think, I really don't know. But she is very lazy and at 16 ended up having a baby and now she is 17 and a demanding little bitch. She gets everything handed to her. She won't get a job. She is a good mother but her own mother ends up doing allot for her on her losy pay. I would love to keep my granddaughter at home.

[ZombieHorde]

21. My sister home schools her kids, and she told me people put down her decision. nt

[hack89]

22. I don't home school but I support your choice

and admire your dedication to your children. America needs more parents like you.

[Proles]

23. I must admit I have something of a prejudice against

homeschooling, but I don't know why.

I'm not totally against the concept. Like someone else said above me, it can be used for religious indoctrination. There's also a perception that in some cases it may not foster proper social interactions. But it all depends on the type of homeschooling. Sometimes homeschoolers have functions with other homeschoolers, or homeschool several different students at once. Many may not have a religious component.

I think it's hit and miss for me. Of all the homeschoolers I've known, they're either really smart, or... well, awkward. But I'm not sure if their awkwardness was a byproduct of homeschooling per se. It may have been the reason they were put into homeschooling in the first place.

But I think homeschooling is done because there are flaws with our public education system. If our public education system is improved to foster creativity, interest in learning, and a friendly environment, then homeschooling probably wouldn't be as prevalent. But as it is, public schools do have flaws in that it usually depends on "manufacturing" students through rote memorization. Some states are worse than others. They may not always foster creativity, and instead push for "going with the flow." With that said I do not regret going to a public school, and would have done it all over again rather than be homeschooled.

Instead of discouraging homeschooling altogether I believe this country should focus on improving the public education system so that such alternate means aren't viewed as essential.

[ReverendDeuce]

37. I've never met a liberal homeschooler, that's why my opinion of them is negative...

The only ones I've personally met have been gun-toting or bible thumping weirdos. I work with two of them of the bible thumping type. I never get into arguments in the office, of course, but I have asked questions trying to probe for information...

Basically it boils down to a fear of their world slipping away from them. Their "nice, white, Christian America" is disappearing before their eyes and since they can't put their own heads in the sand any longer, they're going to make damn sure their kids' are.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. there are plenty of liberal homeschoolers on this very board

they're not all trying to hide their kids...

sP

[Dappleganger]

60. That's a shame, I wish you could meet the many I have...

a number of them homeschool to get away from the bible-thumpers who have taken over the public schools and condone bullying of LGBTQ students and children in LGBTQ families, not to mention the Wiccan and atheist families who are constantly bullied as well.

[Maat]

342. Yes, that's what happened in my area (Murrieta/Temecula, Ca.).

The rightwingers have taken over the schools. They probably violate the First Amendment every day. Who's to stop them, though? Who wants to be a plaintiff?

I notice that many of the non-rightwing-Christian parents homeschool, include many Muslim families, so that they don't have to deal with the bullying.

It happens. Believe me, it happens.

[csziggy]

24. My sister and my sister in law both homeschooled their kids

My sister did it because like her, at five each of her kids were already reading and the school system would not admit them until they were six. She worked part time at a local YMCA and that was her kids' social and exercise time. Once took dance, another gymnastics, another soccer, all through the YMCA.

Each of children advanced at different rates in different subjects so she had to really work to stay ahead of them. AS they got older, they each made the choice to enter regular schools for social or team sports reasons. The last to enter only did it for her senior year in high school so she would have a "normal" diploma.

The three oldest are out on their own making their own livings. The youngest will be starting graduate school (physics) in the fall. They are doing well.

On the other hand, my sister in law home schooled her children for religious reasons. Her husband did not want his children "contaminated" by the mix of children in public schools once he got out of the military. Apparently he had no problem with the base schools while serving in Germany and Oklahoma. Their children are only allowed to socialize with children of the same religion.

They do not seem to be very well adjusted to deal with people outside that same group, though I have limited interactions with them. For some reason their father does not approve of his liberal, atheist sister in law who refused to have a religious ceremony to marry.:evilgrin: The oldest son has already had a public meltdown and had to be temporarily committed to restore his sanity. At 24 he has never lived away from home and has never been out from the control of his father except when he was in the hospital.

I worry about what will happen to those kids. I don't think they are well equipped to live in the modern world.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. That's what I consider so sick about homeschooling, that kids are so controlled

and they're not allowed to develop social skills without the parents observing, controlling, manipulating, etc.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

35. wow...you have been really tainted by some shitty homeschooling stories

because of the 200+ families I know that homeschool their children...NONE of them behave as you describe.

sP

[Sarah Ibarruri]

55. I don't know why that is. Maybe because all the kids in the 200+ behave slightly odd...

... and you have nothing different to compare it to, so it is indeed 'normal' within that isolated group???

I've found myself surrounded by homeschoolers, and tho I'm not an expert on popularity, socialization, and ability to handle oneself with one's peers, nor am I an expert in thought control or brainwashing, I will say too many homeschooled kids end up as adults that feel comfortable with their families and their homeschool groupings, but feel and behave awkwardly with other peers from outside the homeschool groups, as well as within our society. I also believe that if one raises children from early on controlled by parents in all spheres and aspects of socialization ad nauseaum, too many of the the kids will turn out rather odd and unable to cope with society at large.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

68. I was a teacher in a public school

I DO have something to compare it to...nice try though.

sP

[Sarah Ibarruri]

71. I also was a teacher at a public school, and at a private school, in two countries:

The U.S. and Spain.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

74. and your exposure to homeschoolers is obviously limited

and your view is terribly biased.

sP

[Sarah Ibarruri]

179. My view is based upon watching homeschooling groups in Florida and Oklahoma

and as a result asking a lot of questions.

[Goblinmonger]

182. Why is your exposure to home schooling statistically better?

You have your sample. The other person has theirs. Both seem substantial. Yet you are so sure that your sample is the correct one and the other is limited, narrow, and odd. Perhaps yours is the narrow view. Perhaps you are both right.

[antigone382]

169. How do you define "weird?"

Are all differences in cultural norms "weird?" I feel a little uncomfortable and out of place when I visit another country, or even another part of the United States. Am I "weird," or just a human being dealing with norms a little different than what I'm accustomed to? What convinces you that the social skills developed in the public school system, as it is currently set up, are really those best suited to the preservation of a dynamic, intellectually rigorous, democratic society?

If I may repeat a somewhat hackneyed quote, your continual focus on poorly adjusted, homeschooled "weirdos" begs the response: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

[Luminous Animal]

242. Indeed. My daughter, by mass culture criteria is weird. But so are her public school educated

friends. They are artists, independent movie makers, musicians, and designers. They are also incredibly self-motivated and almost all have adult mentors who recognize their talent.

[Broderick]

40. You have some very

Absurd and ignorant stereotypes all balled up inside you. Geezzzz

[ProdigalJunkMail]

42. well, part of the problem is that they are NOT balled up inside

but are leaking out all over this thread...

sP

[Sarah Ibarruri]

57. That sounds similar to what awkward 18 year old homeschooler actually said to me

He is a defender of homeschooling. He, himself, is extremely odd tho.

Anyhow, I took his comment to mean that he felt threatened by my idea that homeschooling restricts childhood development, youth development, and limits development of a social personality and eventually a social life.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

76. nope...my comment simply indicates that you have narrow

and restrictive views...i would go as far as to say bigoted even. i am not threatened by you at all...just astonished at your ignorance.

sP

[uppityperson]

84. Poor logic. Calling someone on their prejudices does not mean the caller is "threatened

by your idea..." but recognizes the flaws of it.

I'd say that insulting someone who points out your prejudices shows you are threatened.

[Broderick]

94. Not at all threatened by

your lack of knowledge and your awesome ability to stereotype. Do you categorize everyone around you, and foment absurd opinion based on ignorance often?

[sense]

322. You are so, so wrong and so, so

programmed. You really need to educate yourself. Step outside your self imposed little schooly bubble and try to get some life experience like the people you're constantly insisting can't be educated without being locked up in a box with only the same age kids all day. You sound so completely indoctrinated.... closed off, unable to learn. Sad.

[csziggy]

128. It depends on the parents completely and is not home schooling at fault

My sister's in law children would have been controlled by their father even if he had sent them to a public school. Home schooling simply let him do it even more. If he could have afforded to pay tuition for five children, he would have sent them to a private church school, which IMO would not have been a big improvement over the home schooling.

I have a friend who "home schooled" her two boys but they were pretty much allowed to run free and learn precious little. The oldest is very unequipped to make a living. He enlisted in the Marines and was a cook for the four years he was in. For some reason he thought he would be a qualified chef when he got out, but restaurants simply don't agree with him, so he is living with her and not working. She hasn't talked at all about the youngest - he should be either working or in college by now.

I see just as much range in how the kids turn out in friend's children who have attended both public and private schools. I think the parents have more of an influence over how the kids will turn out than the method of education.

[antigone382]

168. I had tons more freedom as a homeschooler than in the public school system.

I grew up surrounded by other kids, got most of my "academic" work done in two to four hours each day, and was free to play/read National Geographic or the Bronte sisters (or whatever else I wanted to read)/explore the outdoors, for the rest of the day. My brothers and I were lucky enough to be on a farm, free to climb trees, wade through creeks, ride horses, and create our own imaginary worlds.

I joined public school in the eighth grade, and while it wasn't a problem for me to follow the arbitrary and nonnegotiable rules of the public school system, I look back on those years with a certain amount of horror. I can't imagine putting my kid through something like getting suspended for having Tylenol in your bag, or getting sent home because your jeans are a little frayed at the bottom. It seemed at times like the primary function of public school (at least in Georgia, where I grew up) was to teach total, unquestioned submission to authority and to the dominant social group. I have absolute respect for teachers, I think public education is critical to society, and I don't mean to denigrate it. However in my experience, educational institutions, like most institutions, are at some level fundamentally dehumanizing--which may be a necessity in the modern world, but I don't think I missed much by not being exposed to it until I was through with my early childhood.

I won't deny I had some very difficult years adjusting to the social dynamics and structural requirements of the public school system (though honestly assessing my personality, and circumstances unrelated to my homeschooling, I might have had those problems anyway); but by the time I graduated I had adapted well, and I have no problem making and keeping great friends--of whom many, though not all, are fellow home school kids.

[Maat]

343. That's what I hate about the conventional classroom.

That's what so sick about it. The kids are so controlled - going from one classroom to another. The teacher so tightly controls what is happening, and the kids are packed into that room like sardines.

Their socialization is so tightly controlled. The kids only socialize during school hours with one age group from one community.

Thank the Universe that there are choices out there for parents and kids.

:)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. My sister homeschools, and while she does it primarily to control what her kids are exposed to....

(something she'd lose if she had them in school and merely tutored them during the evenings or weekends), I, personally, don't think it's the best way to socialize kids.

[NNN0LHI]

30. Does she ever mention what part of public school she doesn't want her kids exposed to?

Just curious about that.

Don

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. Yes. Other religions, or a lack of religion. She's afraid they'll want to spend time with other

kids. She's afraid they'll want to go to other kids' houses. She's afraid they'll listen to other kids and other kids' families. She's afraid they'll want to do things like other kids. She's afraid they'll want to have kids over.

She's afraid of all influence except that which she desires the kids to have.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

52. She thinks the teachers might not be attentive to her kids

She prefers to tutor them one to one.

But that's only a small part of the reasons why she doesn't want them in school.

And she knows I think homeschooling is not a good idea.

[jhasp]

39. I don't think sending kids to public schools is the best way to socialize kids.

Although I am biased, as my wife and I homeschool our kids. I'm a college professor and I see many young adults that have a difficult time interacting with people outside of their age group. I received an e-mail from a student a few days ago whom I hadn't met that started off "hey jhasp," and then proceeded to tell me that he was going to come by my office for advising. (We are still on summer break here so I am not regularly in my office.) I replied to him a few days ago that I could meet with him at 2 pm yesterday. No response until yesterday at about 1 pm, when he responded saying that he could be there at 3 pm. It was all downhill from there.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

53. I agree. I've seen lots of homeschooled kids and a preponderance of them are a bit bizarre...

they missed that crucial time in childhood when learning to socialize with many other kids of different families and personalities is so important. They enter young adulthood without having learned something other kids learned as kids, and they have a very hard time learning what they needed to have learned earlier. Some kids turn out okay, but some kids are weird and remain weird all their adult lives.

I've also heard not-so-great stories. For example, the homeschooled boy that went to college, and at the dorm he made no friends. Eventually he was able to find a group that he could feel more comfortable with, but this was a group of drug addicts on campus. To fit into the only group that would accept him, he quickly became a drug addict himself. Soon, he was flunking (and this had been an 'A' student during his homeschooled years). Eventually, he dropped out of college.

How do I know this? Well, my boss was in the same dorm and watched the whole thing transpire. He said the kid was bizarre, and someone very hard to befriend.

[uppityperson]

86. Have you heard any negative stories about public schoolers? 2nd question:Where other than

public school (and perhaps college though not to that extreme) are people forced to be around others of the same age for long periods of time?

[sense]

324. So you're basing your opinion about

home schooling on that type of parent??? Please, please, step away from your prejudices and see that that isn't about school and learning. It's about the opposite. Quit painting with such a broad brush. You have no idea how so many home school. There are as many ways to do it as there are children!

[WolverineDG]

29. You're not allowed to have a choice

if it is an unpopular one. Just sayin'

Kudos to you & yours! :)

dg

[proud2BlibKansan]

32. No I don't

[Bragi]

34. Homeschooling is antisocial

Unless a child has mental or other issues that somehow preclude going to school, then I think homeschooling is indefensible and wrong, and people who choose to isolate their children by refusing to allow them to go to school should expect criticism.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

36. then you don't know shit about homeschooling

yep, you're another one that has heard a few stories and maybe seen a special on TV about the awkwardness of the homeschool-set...and yet knows nothing of it outside of that myopic little window.

learn about it and come back and try again...or don't...it seems YOU are the one with the narrow and isolated view here.

sP

[snooper2]

61. So explain how 5 days a week a homeschooled kid gets to

Interact and learn from other adults, authority figures...

Interact with many other kids for hours on end...

Get different perspectives on everything from studies to life..

Learn directly from different cultures and races that may not be local to your home...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

70. just because you homeschool your kids doesn't make you a shut-in

the kids interact through other means. my kids are in enrichment programs (art and lit classes as well as music). they get more interaction with adults than public school kids who only deal with a couple of teachers and maybe a bus driver. and my kids have already traveled internationally and while that may be the exception rather than the rule, all the homeschool families I know have plenty of access to other cultures...

homeschooling families are not all isolationists.

sP

[Odin2005]

83. Homeschooled kids don;t play with other kids?

[uppityperson]

88. Point by point

Interact and learn from other adults, authority figures..be involved with other activities in your community. Friend's kid had a chicken/egg business when she was young, dealt with the whole thing from researching, buying, raising, finding customers, selling, keeping track of money, etc. It didn't take much time each day but taught her a lot about business and got her in contact with many different people.

Interact with many other kids for hours on end...Same answer as above. Be involved with your community.

Get different perspectives on everything from studies to life..OK, same answer

Learn directly from different cultures and races that may not be local to your home...travel with them, join a club or group that studies such things, sponsor a foreign exchange student or be involved with that program.

etc etc etc. Home schooling can but doesn't necessarily mean be shut up alone at home 24/7 with your parent. There is a lot more to it than that.

[Luminous Animal]

91. A few answers...

Interact and learn from other adults, authority figures...

Friends, neighbors, relatives, docents, music teachers, dance teachers, coaches, etc.

Interact with many other kids for hours on end...

Kids actually do very little interacting with each other in school. And in fact, they are discouraged from interacting with each other during most of the school day. They spend most of their hours interacting with authority figures. After spending a few weeks in a school and experiencing the repressive atmosphere towards interaction and play is what convinced my daughter to continue with home schooling. She had far many more hours of genuine interactions with kids of all ages in the homeschooling environment.

Get different perspectives on everything from studies to life..

The secular homeschooling groups in San Francisco are diverse on many levels. Also kids see and make friends with other kids outside of homeschooling by; going to the park, accessing group activities from acting to dance to sports to music. Homeschooling groups are often considered a school and thus may have access to free or low-cost activities, museums, performances, that traditional school groups have. I'm not sure what you mean by studies... any subject that my daughter was interested in, she found far more diverse information from the library (and with assistance from the librarian) than anything she could have found in the narrow coverage in school text books.

Learn directly from different cultures and races that may not be local to your home...

That was well represented in the homeschooling group, itself.

[Broderick]

45. Hahaha.

You are joking I assume so I am laughing my ass off at the sheer arrogance from utter ignorance. Sarcasm without the wit I suppose to make fun at the laughable stereotypes being displayed on this thread. Sure, that has to be it. Not certain some are clowning around like you though. Some actualy think like you posted believe it or not. It's a shame how close minded and ignorant they are isn't it?

[jhasp]

49. Why do you think homeschooling is indefensible and wrong?

My kids aren't isolated to just interacting with kids their own age that live in our neighborhood. I went to a private school in elementary school and thought it was a great experience. I was one of the kids that you wouldn't expect to see at a private school. My mom was a single parent for part of the time that I went there and was married to an abusive alcoholic the rest of the time. We were on welfare when she was single. My grandparents, though, saw the benefits of a good education and sent my sister and me there. There were several kids like me in my class. The school offered scholarships to people that couldn't afford the tuition. When I moved over to public school in sixth grade, my good performance at the private school translated to being a few years ahead and being a straight A student at the public school. At the private school, we were taught to respect each other, something which didn't happen at the public school.

We've moved away from there and there aren't good private school options where we live now, so we chose to homeschool. My five year old daughter is entering "1st grade" this year along with my six year old son. They usually have kids over to the house at least once and usually twice or more during the week. The homeschool moms often trade babysitting during the day if they need to go to appointments or just need a break to go shopping. Some of the kids are disabled. The kids are usually different ages, plus they go on field trips with other kids every week or two, we have church, and we live next to a park, where they go and play with other kids when they see them over there.

My wife's aunt has criticized homeschooling because, as a public school teacher, she's seen a lot of kids that switch over from homeschooling and fail miserably at the public school. The problem is that public school teachers usually only see the kids for which homeschooling didn't work.

[Bragi]

51. I support public schools

Public school education is how children become educated and socialized to be part of a diverse community.

Homeschooling is preening, suffocating, over-parenting gone wild.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

62. You just summed it up. Homeschooling is 'OVER-PARENTING'

It suffocates kids and doesn't let them develop socially at a time when they ought to be learning to develop socially.

[Shrek]

81. Are you sure my son hasn't developed socially?

Have you ever met him?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

104. tripe...despite several people telling you how wrong you are

you keep up with this socialization and development rant. you won't learn and appear, at least where this topic is concerned, to be incapable of learning.

sP

[uppityperson]

110. must've gone to public school. nt

[ProdigalJunkMail]

114. actually I DID go to public school too...

and I believe that public schools are a pretty good place all-in-all. however, this person is so vehemently against homeschooling that it makes me wonder about their motive here.

both of my parents were teachers; my sis was a teacher as was I (albeit for a short period of time). we spent tons of time justifying our decision to homeschool our girls to them. NOW, that they have seen the results and the wonderfully balanced, talented and knowledgeable kids my kids are becoming, my parents and sibling are really seeing how good a situation homeschooling can be!

sP

[uppityperson]

118. So did I. Things have changed in many ways, many places, for homeschooling.

There are more options, more support. Both have positive and negative aspects.

I was making a joke with "public school" and not being able to learn.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

125. I caught the joke...

but wanted to chime in...

and you're right. here in GA I can even get the same curricula used by the schools to teach my kids if I choose...for free. you can sign up for tutors and all kinds of other resources for the homeschoolers.

sP

[kick-ass-bob]

138. I have little knowledge of homeschooling, but I know you are being ridiculous.

There are all sorts of programs where homeschoolers get together with their peers and develop socially.

There is an entire cottage industry to deal with the non-basic education, such as art, music, physical ed., etc etc etc where homeschoolers are with their peers.

Your blatant ignorance and unwillingness to see the actual truth knows no bounds.

Over parenting, my ass.


Edit: There's no way in hell I'd home school my kids. Waaay too much work for me to deal with. Props to those who do it and do it well.

[sense]

327. Your limited interaction and anecdotal

experience is uninformed and prejudiced. It suffocates? You need an education and to open your mind. You just keep repeating your mantras, without fact or research to back up what you say. No matter what people say to you, you're unwilling to learn. That's a pretty good definition of suffocated!

[uppityperson]

90. Public school classes with single age kids are a "diverse community"? Huh

I see exposing them to all sorts of people of all ages and types as more socializing for a "diverse community".

[miss_hope27]

95. This is the argument

that I don't understand.. Supposedly kids only have the chance of being "well-socialized" by being totally surrounded by kids the same age.. That makes no sense.. It's as if people think homeschooled children are locked up in a cage all day, not socializing with anyone! The program I take part in has school one day a week with other children, they also have field trips throughout the year.

[laundry_queen]

101. Vehemently disagree

I know plenty of homeschoolers. Not one of them 'over parent'. Actually, most of the homeschoolers I know have kids that are far more independent than mine are (mine go to public school). Most homeschoolers get together and form groups and have constant contact with other kids of all ages, and are in numerous other extra curricular activities (because the schooling gets done in a couple of hours instead of a whole day like public school). I think sitting in a classroom with 25 other kids your age is artificial - it's definitely not the socialization people need. I think the reason so many people see homeschooling kids as odd (just for the record, I've NEVER found that to be the case. I have yet to meet a 'weird' homeschooled kid) is because it is now the norm to be only socialized to one's own age group. That is now the societal standard and so any aberration from it seems 'odd'.

I'm sure there are people who use it to isolate, brainwash and abuse their children. I have never met one yet. My daughter's child care worker was homeschooled, and she has a post secondary diploma. She's great! (she's doing the child care in her home so she can stay at home with her twins). She says she loved being homeschooled, and that compared to her friends from college, she was the only one that was comfortable with older people and authority figures (meaning she wasn't scared of them, and stood up for herself). In some ways, public school is a dictatorship that grooms children for an authoritarian style of life. No tolerance policies are but one small example.

I get how people are threatened by homeschooling. One person I talked to , who shares all the same opinions as me on nearly everything, when I said I was considering homeschooling my kids, freaked out about how homeschooling was going to destroy the public school system, because all the parents who cared and pulled out their kids were only going to leave neglected and low performing kids behind. I think some see it as a threat to the whole public school system, and see it as the beginning of slow dismantling of that system. I disagree about that and think the focus should be on private and charter schools as being the bigger threat to public education.

I think everyone should have an open mind about homeschooling. Yes there are some bad people out there who use it to indoctrinate and control their kids, and maybe it's because I'm in Canada, I have mostly met far left homeschooling families who like that their children are not in a rigid system that stifles their creativity and activity levels. Their kids aren't awkward or unable to read at grade level or any of the other stereotypes about homeschooling. I also know homeschooling is not something I could ever do and that my children have had a much more varied education in public school than they would have with me. Which is why I chose not to homeschool - but it is a very individual decision. I think those who are against homeschooling at all costs would do well to find some of the more left-leaning homeschooling families and talk to their children. You'll see they are all quite normal. :)

[kelly1mm]

132. My wife is a public school teacher. Her experience is why we homeschool

our children.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

135. while my wife is not a teacher...

i come from a family of teachers and have many teachers as friends...most of them agree with our decision to homeschool ours!

sP

[kelly1mm]

Funny how that works! There are several other teachers at her school that

homeschool their own children.

[sense]

326. You are revealing just how

uninformed you are. Amazing. Why don't you go comment on something you know about?

[Odin2005]

80. Bullshit on stilts. An educational system based on age grades...

...is "good" for social skills? What crap, as if kids did not have friends outside of school.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

180. Keeping children locked within a family with occasional supervised 'outings' until

the person is an adult is a good way to socialize a kid? Not.

[Odin2005]

189. You have no clue what you are talking about.

All you homeschooling bashers seem to think that kids only socialize with others in school.

Or, more likely, you are subconsciously using "socialization" to mean "break the kids' spirits and turn them into obedient corporate drones", because to me that is what most arguments about "socialization" boil down to, because I am for sure that age-graded authoritarian institutions are not the best way to socialize kids.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

198. As I said, homeschooling is fine for children who have disabilities that keep him/her

from being able to endure normal socialization, or where schools don't exist. Otherwise, it has little purpose except for parents who like to have absolute control of a child.

[Odin2005]

200. You keep claiming it's about parents wanting "absolute control of their kids". That is FALSE.

I'm not surprised, our public schools don't teach logic at all. You can keep on insisting until the cows come home, that doesn;t make it true.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

206. Oh, I don't think parents go around saying, "All I want is absolute control of my kids" or anything

Perhaps they live afraid that their child will come to harm, or that their child will find other people's ways more appealing than those ways taught by their parents.

As I said, I know people that do a little tutoring of their kids in the evening and on the weekends. The kids, tho, go to school, where they are away from the watchful eye of their parents and families, have friends of their own, develop VITAL social skills, learn to deal with pleasant and unpleasant folks, learn to make decisions, become independent, and learn the lessons necessary to develop the techniques for dealing with others in adulthood.

[Luminous Animal]

216. As a homeschooled kid, my child had more freedom than any public schooled kid.

My daughter went to a public school for a few weeks when she was 10. (It was her choice.) She found the experience suffocating. I think it is hilarious that people think that homeschooled children do not:

develop friends on their own - most homeschooled kids are in a homeschooling group (ours had about 200 families) and the kids develop their own friendships within the group with kids of all ages. Most homeschooled kids also take outside classes and meet children outside of the group.

deal with pleasant and unpleasant folks: there were certainly pleasant and unpleasant parents and kids within the homeschooling group. Also, unpleasant relatives and neighbors.

learn to make decisions & become independent: some to much of homeschooling is self-directed by the student. Even those parents who use packaged curriculum usually allow the child to venture beyond the text and deeply explore subjects that they are interested in. That is, the child becomes the decision maker of some of their own education. Another benefit is the luxury of time for self-exploration and contemplation.

learn the lessons necessary to develop the techniques for dealing with others in adulthood: as mentioned above, homeschooled children deal with others on a regular basis through the homeschooling group and outside classes.

You seem to be under some bizarre impression that homeschooled kids sit in isolation in their homes for much of the day.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

219. Homeschooled kids are restrained, constrained, always within the family unit, and I

do not call that any form of freedom.

Being kept at home is not any form of socializing. Neither is limiting children to only socializing under the watchful eye of parents, and only with OTHER equally watched and restrained kids (homeschooled kids).

What homeschooled kids do, consists of something homework sessions in the house of the parents the whole frikkin' day long. That's not freedom.

[Odin2005]

233. "Homeschooled kids are restrained, constrained, always within the family unit" FALSE.

Quit this nonsense, just because you insist on these falsehoods does not make them true.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

236. Really? It's false? Then homeschooled kids actually go to real schools secretly? nt

[Luminous Animal]

238. There are hundreds of opportunities in this wide wide world to keep a child occupied

outside the confines of the family home.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

251. Yes, of course!

Opportunities here, there and all over the place to take the child so he can OBSERVE something else for a while, or participate observed and cONTROLLED by the parent, until the child is 18 and it's too late.

A 365, 24/7 prison of sorts where the child can be nicely curtailed and controlled at all times by one or both parents, and he can never be away from them.

[Luminous Animal]

241. What you don't know about homeschoolers could fill a text book.

1) They are not kept in the house all frikkin' day long.
2) They socialize regularly outside of the watchful eye of parents and other parents. In fact, most secular homeschoolers, when age appropriate are outside the watchful eyes of any adult. Most secular homeschoolers have a lot of confidence in their kids to be responsible and to do the right thing without constant supervision well before high school age.

My own daughter started community college when she was 13. She took mass transportation there on here own, walked to her classes on her own, and came home on mass transportation on her own. We were confident of her abilities to navigate the situation on her own because she had several years of practice traveling about on her own to friend's houses and to extra-curricular activities.

By the age of 11, my daughter had the following instructors (and many not famous volunteers) in writer's workshops that had nothing to do with the family home: Roger Ebert, Stephen King, Vendala Vida, Dave Eggers, Michael Chabon, Spike Jonze, Jenny Traig, & Keith Knight. She was a published writer (she now does freelance editing work) and Dave Eggers loved one of her poems so much that he recited it in interviews and at his own readings. She took 5-6 free writing workshops a week plus worked on the newspaper here: http://826valencia.org/ . When she got older she became volunteer. She was in the cheap children's chorus two evenings a week here: http://www.sfcmc.org/site/. She took free and cheap dance lessons here: http://sfrecpark.org/Rec-HarveyMilk.aspx . She took circus school classes and day camp for several years here: http://circuscenter.org/find-classes/programs-for-children. She played soccer in the community soccer league and ran track & field.

She volunteered at the food bank and volunteered to be a data collector on a university marine biologist's boat in the San Francisco Bay.

All of this and more outside the watchful eye of her parents or other homeschooling parents. During her "elementary" years, she dealt with dozens more adults on a regular basis than any public school educated child. She also dealt with a wide variety of children.

[Odin2005]

244. Your daughter is AWESOME!!!

:D

[Luminous Animal]

248. Well, she has had awesome opportunities. We are lucky that we live in a city

that offers so much for kids. BUT, my own sister, who lives in Delaware, is able to offer a lot of opportunities for her kids by enrolling them in a democratic school.

They may not have access to famous people but the school offers amazing freedom of self-directed education, access to resources, and a full democratic experience between students, of any age, and the adult facilitators.

If there were a similar school near San Francisco, I would have, most likely, decided on that path rather than homeschooling.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

252. I've seen plenty of homeschooled kids. The parents all claim they 'expose'

their kid to real, life environments to develop socially. Uh-huh.

They drive them here to do this, they drive them that to do that. The child never gets a chance to be on his/her own. The child is always an observer or participant with his parents eyes on him.

And by the way, 13 at community college? Did she ever get the chance to be without parents in school prior to 13, or was that the first time she was suddenly thrown out into real life? Also, was she with one class of other 13 year olds at community college, or thrown out suddenly to an 18+ age group? How can community college be the right age group to socialize with as a first place, at 13 after having had little or no time away from parental observation and control? Just wondering.

Again, homeschooling is a completely bizarre activity that feeds some need of the parents to control the kids' exposure to real life, and curtails their development of social skills.

[blueamy66]

253. I caught that as well.

A 13 year old homeschooled kid going to classes with 18+ year olds?

doesn't sound like a good mix to me

[uppityperson]

271. 1st a complaint about being kept isolated in "homogenous" family home, now about being around

people of differing ages in monitored class.

Of course, the big knock on homeschool students is that they never develop social skills since their classrooms are often their kitchen tables and their mothers are often their teachers. Cogan, however, noted that another homeschool study that looked at more than 7,300 adults, who had been homeschooled, determined that the homeschool graduates were more likely to have voted and participated in community service than other adults.

Read more: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/spending/blog/college-solution/can-homeschoolers-do-well-in-college/2551/#ixzz1VOqZBZqa

[blueamy66]

276. What does community service have to do with being able to

adjust to college life at 13?

I am not complaining about a 13 year old going to community college....just noting that it would be tough for the homeschooled kid.

Hell, homeschool away. Just don't think that you are mainstream.

[uppityperson]

278. read the link, it is about college and homeschooling.

[Luminous Animal]

291. It wasn't tough at all. One of the things that some of the homeschooling parents

Many homeschoolers in California start off in community college early as "concurrent high school students". As such, they are limited to two classes a semester and she initially enrolled in classes in subjects that she was familiar with (Spanish & Algebra).

[sense]

328. It's a very good mix

for many! Segregating kids by something inconsequential, like age is silly. My son never fit in with his age group and could never figure out why they were so immature.... He was home schooled and learned from all different ages. We found all sorts of classes and situations in our community for him to learn and very few ever said a word about his age, although he was small and clearly younger than most. Age doesn't matter when you want to learn something. Why restrict learning? He was appropriate and could handle the classes, so why would anyone object?

When he was in school and skipped a couple of grades we did have to explain a few things earlier than we might have, but he had no trouble understanding and making allowances for odd behavior from others.

Do not close your mind to the possibilities. We've all been far too programmed to simply do as we're told, instead of stepping outside our comfort zones and learning all we can.

[Luminous Animal]

262. You have a reading comprehension problem. I blame public schools.

[uppityperson]

270. Since you now bring in "community college", here is some info on how they excel at college

http://moneywatch.bnet.com/spending/blog/college-solution/can-homeschoolers-do-well-in-college/2551/

Homeschool students earned a higher ACT score (26.5) versus 25.0 for other incoming freshmen.
Homeschool students earned more college credits (14.7) prior to their freshmen year than other students (6.0).
Homeschooled freshmen were less likely to live on campus (72.4%) than the rest of the freshmen class (92.7%).

Of course, the big knock on homeschool students is that they never develop social skills since their classrooms are often their kitchen tables and their mothers are often their teachers. Cogan, however, noted that another homeschool study that looked at more than 7,300 adults, who had been homeschooled, determined that the homeschool graduates were more likely to have voted and participated in community service than other adults.


http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000017.asp

[ProdigalJunkMail]

283. you continually show your utter ignorance

and unwillingness to listen in this discussion...you are either stirring the pot intentionally or have a disorder that you need to have addressed.

sP

[Odin2005]

217. There you go again, implying that kids only learn social skills in school.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

223. Isolation within a group does not prepare children for real life. nt

[Odin2005]

232. There it is again: "Isolation", implying kids can only learn social skills at school.

Your circular reasoning is getting tiresome.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

237. Isolation within the same homogeneous group, does not help one function in real life nt

[uppityperson]

240. You mean a homogeneous group like a class full of other single aged kids?

That really doesn't prepare anyone for learning how to deal with all sorts of people. Glad you are beginning to learn.

[Odin2005]

243. Oh, SNAP!!!

[Luminous Animal]

245. Yep. One of the benefits of homeschooling was the wide variety of ages that a kid

will make friends with. When I joined the homeschooling group, my daughter was 3 and I was blown away over how the older kids enthusiastically played games with the little kids. When my daughter became an older kid, it was great fun to watch her and the other older kids wrangle all the little kids into games.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

250. I mean a homogeneous group of kids restrained by their parents, kept home, watched by them 24/7,

and whose parents all agree on keeping them from having exposure to kids in real life until the kids are 18 and it's too late.

[uppityperson]

268. There extremes and child abusers in parents, the public school and home school systems

[blueamy66]

256. Let's look at the Duggars.

They are homeschooled.

When they "socialize" it's with other fundie homeschooled kids. That really doesn't prepare them for learning how to deal with all sorts of people.

I understand that this is an extreme example, but, hey...it's out there.

[uppityperson]

267. There are always extremes. Rather like in spouses. eom

[blueamy66]

273. not sure what that has to do with homeschooling

nt

???

[uppityperson]

277. Do you not view the Duggars as extreme? Thought that was your point.

Since you brought them up, you must have had a reason.

[jhasp]

255. Like a classroom? NT

[uppityperson]

272. homeschool graduates were more likely to have voted and participated in community service than...

Of course, the big knock on homeschool students is that they never develop social skills since their classrooms are often their kitchen tables and their mothers are often their teachers. Cogan, however, noted that another homeschool study that looked at more than 7,300 adults, who had been homeschooled, determined that the homeschool graduates were more likely to have voted and participated in community service than other adults.

Read more: http://moneywatch.bnet.com/spending/blog/college-solution/can-homeschoolers-do-well-in-college/2551/#ixzz1VOqZBZqa

[sense]

320. There is nothing vital about public school.

Vital social skills??? Oh, my god! My home schooled children are out in the real world, all day, every day learning their social skills from everyone they meet, not from 30-50 other 7 year olds! School is a completely artificial environment, where kids are segregated by age and neighborhood and that environment will never be recreated anywhere else in their entire lives. There is no excuse for the idea that someone "socialized" in school would have better social skills than people socialized in the world at large. Learning to make decisions? They can't even go to the bathroom without permission! Becoming independent??? Peer pressure is enormous to conform and very few fail to do so. You cannot learn the techniques for dealing with adults by dealing with children all day.

What passes for knowledge about home school is appalling! You're really just going to keep repeating the party line???? The things you've said are nearly word for word what the NEA and teachers have been told to recite!

Home schooling has evolved far beyond what you seem to think it is. Maybe you should try to evolve too.

[chillspike]

220. If you admit "normal socialization" treats some people unfairly...

...how can you tout the superiority of attending school versus home schooling? Why are children with disabilities or who are even slightly different treated so badly? Is this the kind of socialization that you consider so important for children to experience?

Not attacking you. I agree there can be a social disconnect between home schoolers and those who've been socialized in schools. But the question is what is the quality of the socialization in schools? I think the disconnect stems from the schoolers side because the socialization patterns they typically learn are generally not very good. I would suggest that American schoolers would not socialize well with students from other countries like Japan, as well, because the problem is not isolation but plain flat out rudeness.

[hack89]

229. There are several home school kids that play sports with my children

and that doesn't include those wonderful summer evenings when all the kids in the neighborhood play until past dark. Kid's lives should not revolve around school - they are a necessary evil that don't really do a good job of socializing kids.

[sense]

325. Could you make a more foolish statement?

Isolate? Why do you comment on things you know nothing about? Home schooling is a just a name. It's not a description of what most people who do not send their children to school do! We are out in the real world, all day, every day. No bible, no kitchen table, no isolation! Learn before you speak.

[aikoaiko]

38. Where I live no one judges homeschooling parently except to envy them.

Tomorrow is my son's first day at kindergarten at a secular private school for which I am paying $7.5K.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

41. ouch...

my university tuition wasn't that much! granted...it was a state school! ;-)

sP

[aikoaiko]

46. I have to admit that if my state offered vouchers, I'd be ecstatic.

I'm fortunate to be able to send my kid to this school.

[Occulus]

69. Vouchers are way, way over the line.

It amounts to theft of my property taxes to send your children to a private school- money that should be going into public coffers.

There's a word for that. It's "freeloading".

[joeglow3]

121. The math of it disagrees with you

Our local public school pays about $11,000 per student, per year. The private school we send our kid to costs about $4,500 a year (of which, we pay $2,000). If vouchers paid for 1,000 at a cost of $4,500,000, there would be $11,000,000 less in expenses and only $4,500,000 less in income. Thus results in a net cash inflow of $6,500,000 to spend on the remaining students.

[aikoaiko]

123. That's an "interesting" take on freeloading.

I'd be happy just to get the portion of my property taxes that are normally given to public school as a voucher so as not to "freeload" off of you or anyone else.

Given your stance above, I can't imagine you would have a problem with that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

181. I agree. nt

[WolverineDG]

44. I actually tell parents of my juvenile clients to homeschool

or to get their kids out of public school if they can. Why? Because once they go on "The List," the school administrators will target them every time there is a problem at that particular school. They'll find themselves back in court, facing harsher recommendations.

And it's almost funny just how much better the kids do if their parents at least pull them out of the school they were in & got them in a private school or one of the many charter schools here in town.

dg

[Maat]

117. I hear you, WolverineDG.

I retired from social work about ten years ago TO homeschool Daughter, who I adopted. I just had an instinct that she would be targeted, for different reasons.

One of the great things is that she doesn't have to deal with being herded or being bullied. I'm proud to say that she is a very positive person.

[Shrek]

47. As time goes by, it's less of an issue

When we first started out it was a lot less common and a many people questioned it (I have to say, mostly out of ignorance rather than malice, but there was no hiding the skepticsim and suspicion).

These days it's a lot more mainstream and we actually encounter a lot more positive interest than negative. We often get questions about how to get started, the logistical demands, and so on. It helps that our son has moved on to college and is doing very well; people see that homeschooling works and doesn't fit the stereotype of a social abyss (our son goes to a large university and has made a ton of new friends from his dorm and the paintball club).

Edit: fix typo

[seabeyond]

48. i think i have spent a lot of time defending my kids going to public.

i get it on the homeschooling issue. i sent kids to private first, then considered homeschooling, but sent to public.

i am good with it all... just educate.

[pintobean]

50. Creationists gave it a bad name.

There's nothing to defend.

[ChazII]

98. Agree 100%.

Well said, pintobean.

[Dappleganger]

58. The best place for support is a homeschooling forum

or local club. The first place I ever found good support was Vegsource.com, because at that time I was a vegetarian and we homeschooled for non-religious reasons. There still are many there who are supportive and are liberal on that forum.

I do not and have never expected everyone to understand or accept our choices for schooling (all of our kids have been in public schools for years now). My kids are not their problem.

[theaocp]

59. Do what thou whilt, but just make sure

to pay your taxes to support public schools. Just because you support homeschooling does not mean you get to leave the rest of society floundering. And yes, I realize some do not fit that category, so save your venom. Just support public schools or suffer under the society you help perpetuate.

[Broderick]

63. Is there a choice

Lol. Good grief.

[theaocp]

67. Fair enough,

but perhaps it's more accurate to willingly and enthusiastically support your public schools. I can see homeschoolers creating a conservative "I got mine, where's yours?" attitude toward public schools. Is that a fair depiction of everyone? Of course not, but to deny it outright is naive.

[stanwyck]

64. Seems like there is a lot of heavy parental ego involved

How many parents out there are really knowledgeable enough in the sciences to teach effectively? Not just assigning chapters to read - and checking tests from a workbook - but really talking about physics? Chemistry? Getting into the practical applications due to having a background (and years of education) in the subject? What about calculus? It takes a skilled teacher to effectively teach higher math - so the subject is understood - not just "taught for the test." Who makes the choices on what literature to read - and why? Plus - being exposed to other authority figures: teachers, coaches, music and art teachers, administators - gives children a wider frame of reference. No matter how wonderful our parents are - and I have wonderful parents - there are many adults out there whose point of view and encouragement is critical for development. Is this really about what is best for the child? Or the parent? Particularly if the parent has control and ego issues.

[polly7]

87. Those are also the questions I have about home-schooling.

I was lucky to have teachers, many who went above and beyond what was offered in the textbooks, who introduced topics and discussion that I, as an adult and not a teacher, would never think of. One teacher had such a rich knowledge of history it was like he put us in a time machine, and we loved it. His classes were amazing. Another made even the most boring literature into something we enjoyed. Are parents who home-school given just the material, or are they, too, tutored somehow on introducing what should be much more than textbooks and exams to these kids? I believe whatever is right for the child and parent - is right - but I worry they may be missing out on some of the extras that teachers who love to teach and have spent years learning to do effectively, can offer.

[Maat]

116. My husband and I have two Bachelor's degrees, three Master's ..

Degrees, and two doctorates between us. We've been in more educational programs that many teachers could ever dream of - and we know what worked in teaching us, and what didn't.

I, for one, take my teen to classes with outside vendors.

We are able to tailor a unique program homeschooling that fits her and her goals perfectly!

[polly7]

124. That's great, I applaud you for it. It would be fantastic if all parents

were so educated, but imo, I doubt all of them are, and probably many didn't have the opportunity. Nothing against home-schooling as long as the kids are exposed to many, many different areas of interest by people who have the imagination and wherewithal to do so. Whatever works:)

[Maat]

153. Take care, and thanks for the post (n/t).

[Sarah Ibarruri]

183. That's another issue I had failed to mention in my own posts, so thank you.

Most parents might be able to teach some subjects, or the initial grade school subjects, but not the rest. To teach, one must have someone teaching who knows the subject matter, otherwise, you are basically leaving your child to teach himself, AND exposing him to an anti-social environment to boot. Two strikes against homeschooling.

[jhasp]

257. You assume...

that parents are unable to learn the subject matter outside of a college setting.

[Withywindle]

194. This is my #1 problem with it as a concept.

I went to small, worn-down, aging Appalachian public schools in the 70s and 80s. Hardly an educational utopia.

But over the course of the K-12, I was exposed to such a large variety of adult teachers and authority figures, I learned very well that you shouldn't submit to someone just because they were older and more powerful; you had to actually look at them day to day and make your own judgments. Did I have bad teachers? Oh hell yes. Did I get bullied? Yup. Did I get religion shoved down my throat? Uh-huh. But I had some GREAT teachers too. I had teachers who taught me things from their own experiences and ways of thinking that were coming from **very** different places from my liberal parents culturally--and yet gave me valuable insights, even in a sideways kind of way. I learned things that I never knew would ever be of use to me--until they suddenly were 30 years later!

Also, what I'm getting from the defenders of homeschooling here, between the lines, is that there is generally a LOT of class privilege involved.

(1) You have to have a household where both parents don't need to have jobs, which is a HUGE luxury these days...as it was when I was a kid; both my parents had full-time jobs, OF COURSE. That was just the way it was; wasn't negotiable.

(2) You have to be a household with enough multigenerational education to even be aware of homeschooling as a desirable possibility. (This is the difference between "class" and "income.")

(3) You have to live in an area where there is a significant critical mass of households that meet criteria 1 & 2, and also are interested in homeschooling their own kids, to participate in group discounts, group tours, and the like. ("Location location location" is a factor of class that's nearly as decisive as bank statements.)


And if all of the above are true, well, sure I can't judge--but your kids probably won't meet or interact with kids from families who can't meet that standard (and might possibly look down on them or pity them if they do). And that seems like it's a big part of learning EMPATHY (as opposed to SYMPATHY, which is very different.)

[blueamy66]

65. These are my 3 issues with homeschooling

1. not enough structure....I'm not positive, but I'm guessing that homeschooled kids don't spend as much time in "class" as regular schooled kids
2. allowing homeschooled kids to play on public school sports teams
3. there is a reason why teachers are required to have a college education

Other than that, go for it!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

107. rebuttal

1) many kids in public school WASTE time in classrooms waiting for other students to be handled. homeschooling affords the opportunity to customize the learning process per child and allows them to progress at a natural rate; they are not forced to move too quickly but don't get bored because the material is too rudimentary.
2) homeschool kids should have every right to play on public school teams provided they meet the requirements of grades (and it does need to be demonstrated somehow). their parents pay taxes into the school system and should therefor be able to take advantage of the elements they choose.
3) being a teacher is not all about the education the teacher received. teaching is a skill that does not require a higher education degree. a good teacher should also know when the student is surpassing them and provide for proper education augmentation to meet the gap.

sP

[blueamy66]

161. still don't agree

1. If a kid is that smart, they can take IB classes. My fiance's son did it. He was challenged and did very well. Well enough to get a scholarship to a major University.

2. Why should a homeschooled kid, who can sleep in, go to "class" in his/her pjs and be done in 4 hours be able to play sports on the same team as kids who get up earlier and spend more hours in class?

It's not about paying taxes....it's about a level "playing field".

3. Cool, so when are the HS graduates gonna be hired to teach? Cause last I knew, one MUST have at least a Bachelors to teach. I'm pretty sure that most teachers "know when the student is surpassing them".

It's all about being fair.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

164. if it is about being fair

then do we stop taking taxes from the people who homeschool? i mean, they aren't using the resources, by your logic, they should not have to pay the taxes for them.

and smart kids end up in trouble all the time in school for being bored and unchallenged. i am glad your soon-to-be stepson (congrats, by the by) did well. but there is nothing that says even those classes will be an appropriate challenge.

my kids don't sleep in...not to say some don't. hell, some kids do nothing in homeschool and so are effectively truant. but it is not true of the parents who really wish to do their kids a service rather than just hiding them away. my kids are up and starting school by 7:30 and work hard for the bulk of the day. and the reason they should be able to play sports and participate in those activities is because they are gov't supported services that they have earned the RIGHT to participate regardless of their attendance in the said school.

i know plenty of 'teachers' with degrees that couldn't teach their way out of a wet paper sack. a degree doesn't make you a good teacher. and to be honest, the homeschooled kids in GA have to go through all the same testing that the public and private schools so standards are being followed. there are some high school graduates that could teach courses better than some of the teachers i had in high school AND at university!

i can see your disagreements and to some degree how you came to them. but if you knew the homeschooled kids i do you would be surprised...

sP

[blueamy66]

185. sounds good...we agree on some stuff and not on others

I don't have kids...I pay school taxes....so I shouldn't have to pay the school tax either?

Here is a kinda stupid question....and I don't know how old your kids are....but, when they become teenagers, will you get them out of bed at 7 a.m., have them shower, dress, eat breakfast and THEN start class? Cause that's at least an hour of "awake" time for kids that go to "real" public/private schools. Then the commute, lunch, after school activities and THEN sports practice.

Let's throw a part-time job into the mix.

It's just not the same and not fair.

If the homeschool parents want to start a "league" of homeschooled kids, more power at them. But they shouldn't be able to play with the public school kids. JMHO

Do you have any stats on homeschooling parents....how many have HS degrees, college degrees, graduate degrees, etc? Just curious/

[ProdigalJunkMail]

187. so it seems to be that you think that my kids

because we manage our home in a way that allows my wife to be home and homeschool our girls they should not be able to have the same opportunities that other kids have? we pay our taxes (and i believe everyone should whether their kids are in school or not or even if they don't have kids because the taxes for education benefit us all in the long run) but we are not a drain on resources for the school. if my kid is good enough to make the team it seems it would be a win/win situation. to discriminate against someone because they are being educated in a different manner doesn't seem fair to me.

and you're right...it is a big advantage to the kids to be homeschooled from a time perspective. we do more before lunch than most kids do all day.

my highschool day :

up at 5:45
leave at 6:45 to be at school by 7:15
classes start at 7:25
6 periods
7 minutes between periods for transition time
leave school at 2:25 and home by 3:00

so...1:05 in commute and over forty minutes of class transition time

that is wasted time to a homeschooling family. that hour and forty five minutes is used in instruction for us.

we do have a homeschool football team and a marching band here where we live...indeed a league. but by state law the kids CAN play on public school sporting teams and marching bands and the like...though most of them choose not to.

i don't know any stats that you are looking for but i could maybe google something up. for us, we both hold degrees and i was a teacher in high school for a short while. most of the parents who do homeschool in our group have degrees...and most of them know when they can no longer teach their kid and hire tutors to do the heavy lifting (i would hate to have to teach calculus again!).

[blueamy66]

254. But see, you've made my point.

You were up at 5:45 and weren't done with classes until 3. That's 9 hours and 15 minutes being busy.

Which means that you were probably tired.

So, you try out for a sports' team and a homeschooled kid also tries out....he's slept in 2 more hours and is probably done by 1ish.....

Do you think it's fair that the kid that has more sleep and more free time to relax should be allowed to try out for that same team with kids (you, back in the day) that have had less sleep and less free time?

on edit: thanks for the congrats...we are both very proud of my soon to be stepson :-)

[ProdigalJunkMail]

263. actually, I do think it's fair

while my kids may not have the wasted time in the day...they still use that time. I would even venture, that by the end of a school day my kids have done much more than the kids in a public or private school...we work them hard but I admit that it may not be true of everyone who homeschools.

When it comes to athletes in high schools, most of the ones that I recall took a classload that looked something like this:

1st Weight Training
2nd Academic Class
3rd General PE
4th Academic Class
5th Office Aid
6th Home Economics (that let them out early to get to the weight room again)

No joke. Not much of a tough day and not all kids went like that...but some sure did and they were invariably the best of the team.

sP

[blueamy66]

275. Not me

I had 6 classes a day every year in HS. I took PE 3 years....no home ec or office asst. or weight training. I took 4 IB classes.

Yet I played bball and made all state and got a scholarship to play ball.

Come on...quit making excuses.

If you chose to turn your back on the public school system, turn your ENTIRE back. Don't be a hypocrite.

[uppityperson]

281. DAMN STRAIGHT!!!111 Don't pay taxes or vote on school levy's! Don't vote for

any school board members! IGnore it ALL!!!!!111111

[blueamy66]

285. I do.

I don't care. Don't have kids.

Just don't think it's fair that homeschooled kids pick and choose what part of the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM they want to participate in.

[uppityperson]

294. Sigh. All kids do. They can pick and choose. They have the choice of partial home schooling,

all home schooling, all public schooling, etc. They also have other choices in the PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM like which classes to take from electives to what type math, if any. They can challenge course, take online courses, etc.

I pay taxes which pays for my public school system. If you do, do you think this is fair since you don't have kids?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

282. not being a hypocrite at all

school is school...athletics is athletics. i don't even like that they are intertwined as they are. we pay our taxes...our kids make good grades (yes, that can be verified by the state) and if they can complete with the team they should be allowed to.

and i get that you took all these awesome classes and made the most of your education time at HS...but you know damned well that a lot of kids did EXACTLY what I showed...(ON EDIT) and since THEY took a light classload, should THEY have been allowed to play since they had it easier???

sP

[blueamy66]

284. not at my HS

but this was back in the 80s....maybe things are different now

So, if I read what you wrote right....:school is school...athletics is athletics. i don't even like that they are intertwined as they are.: So, if a kid that flunks every class but that can throw a football should win a college athletic scholarship, no?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

289. um...no

and my high school was in the 80's too.

the school should not be spending vast quantities of money on after school sports. phys ed is important to a well rounded HS experience, but sports should be left to local sporting leagues. i have never understood why a kid plays little league or pop warner up to a point and then it becomes the purview of the school. i also believe that if a college sports program cannot support itself then it should not exist. school is school...sports is sports. if the program supports itself then MAYBE in high school... (and this is from a person who, much like yourself, took the hard classes and played highschool and college sports in Div I)

sP

edited for worse than usual grammar

[uppityperson]

269. You think it's unfair that some kids aren't sleep deprived or stressed? Seriously?

[blueamy66]

274. Can't you comprehend what I wrote?

It has nothing to do with sleep deprivation or stress.

It has to do with kids being a FAIR chance to make a PUBLIC SCHOOL SPORTS TEAM!

If a homeschooler doesn't like public school teachers, why would they like a public school sports coach, who is most likely a teacher as well?

[uppityperson]

280. You brought up sleep deprivation. Here is what I am replying to.

"Do you think it's fair that the kid that has more sleep and more free time to relax should be allowed to try out for that same team with kids (you, back in the day) that have had less sleep and less free time? "

Can't you comprehend what YOU wrote?

[blueamy66]

287. Did you ever play HS or Div I sports?

Cause the pressures of public HS and university and homework have a huge bearing on the ability to perform in athletics.

Please answer my question in regards to teachers and coaches. Why would you entrust your child to a HS coach, who is most likely a teacher as well, to a public HS coach?

[uppityperson]

293. Poor grammar, or unclear question. Please clarify

I think you are asking why, if I don't trust public school teachers, to trust one who is a coach. Is this what you mean.

This is also unclear. Please clarify. thank you.
"Cause the pressures of public HS and university and homework have a huge bearing on the ability to perform in athletics."

[blueamy66]

295. Yeah, it is poor grammar and I couldn't get back in time to edit.

My question is...if you homeschool cause you do not like public school teachers, why would you entrust your child to a public school coach, who is most likely a public school teacher as well?

I'm not sure why you don't understand the second part.

I played HS and Div I basketball. I worked my ass off in HS, with IB classes, volunteer work at school and community service. I got lucky and got a Div I basketball scholarship.

Do you think that a homeschooled child, who doesn't have the same pressures (as I've stated before) and scheduleand time structures should be entitled to that same scholarship? I don't. I don't even think that they should be able to play public school sports.

Like I've stated before....join a homeschool league...full of homeschooled kids.

[uppityperson]

296. Let's start with the assumption that I "homeschool cause you do not like public school teachers".

I home schooled for part of a year because my child was unable to tolerate being in his school. Was physically sick a lot, very mentally stressed and was unable to move to a more suitable class. There are MANY reasons for homeschooling and "cause you do not like public school teachers" is way down the list for many.

I like most teachers, though also recognize that like every profession there is a wide variety of styles and competencies.

"Do you think that a homeschooled child, who doesn't have the same pressures (as I've stated before) and scheduleand time structures should be entitled to that same scholarship? I don't. I don't even think that they should be able to play public school sports."

Yes. I do. Are you saying that a child should be not allowed to participate or get scholarships because he/she didn't have to wake up at the crack of dawn to sit in classes like the majority of kids do? Are you going to limit participation to ones taking classes every period rather than having a study hall? After all, they can get their homework done during school hours and thus have more time to sleep later. Or they might use that time to play. And that isn't fair to kids who take hard classes every period. Is this what you are saying?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

302. perhaps blueamy believes that people who work harder

don't deserve better grades either? i mean, if we are going to call something an advantage, let's be honest and call everything that IS an advantage what it is. what about the kids who take laughable schedules but still play? what about college students who play 5 years of sports only to graduate without being able to read?

you wanna be fair? fine...EVERYONE who plays a sport at school must take the same schedule of courses, have the same after-school work to do, must also only ride the bus to school (can't be too comfy in mom's car or driving your own), gets the exact same equipment, doesn't get any outside coaching or assistance... maybe this will make the point?

nah...

sP

[uppityperson]

307. Exactly. She also believes the only reason anyone homeschools is they hate public sch teachers.

Will this make the point? nah also.

[blueamy66]

304. Yes, that is what I was saying.

Sorry, we just don't agree.

[uppityperson]

306. You want to limit sports participation to kids who have the exact same school and out of school

schedules and activities. Gotcha. Well, goot luck with that as it isn't going to happen. Kids take different classes in amount, in difficulty, in difficulty for them. Some ride the bus, some walk, some get driven to school. Some have jobs outside school, some don't. Some eat more healthy food than others.

Things are not equal between participants, between people and situations in the world. "fair" does not = equal" or exactly the same. One of the things most of us learn during the maturation process is that sometimes you get a smaller piece of cake, sometimes larger. ANd yes, that is fair.

[blueamy66]

309. How many homeschooled kids take a bus, walk or get

driven to school? ZERO.

Why should a kid that doesn't attend "AA" High School be able to wear an "AA" High School jersey? When homeschooled boys do two-a-days, I may change my mind.

Let them play ball....against other homeschool teams.

I hope that you are not insinuating that I have not matured.

I am entitled to my opinion and you to yours. We just don't agree.

[uppityperson]

310. I don't need to insinuate. eom

[blueamy66]

312. whatever

Your screen name is quite appropriate. You should probably take it down a notch.

Still waiting to hear how many homeschooled kids ride a bus, bike or walk to school.....

[ProdigalJunkMail]

301. so, homeschool kids don't have pressures?

wow...that's a stretch. the ONLY pressure that might be less is the time pressure. if anything, homeschool kids are under MORE pressure (once again, the ones that are actually learning).

sP

[blueamy66]

303. I don't agree.

They may have schoolwork pressures, but that is all.

Hey, these are just my opinions. Not trying to be bitchy....

[ProdigalJunkMail]

305. i don't think you're trying to be bitchy at all

but it feels like you just don't believe homeschool kids have any of the same pressure public/private schools do and speaking from the experience of managing a homeschool program and having been a high school teacher...those homeschool kids have many pressures too!

thanks for the conversation...sorry if i seem defensive, but so many people look down on homeschooling without really knowing much about it that i get a little pissy...

have a great weekend!

sP

[blueamy66]

308. it's cool

You have a great weekend too!

I have to do a wee bit of OT...but will survive and am happy to have a job WITH ot.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

300. because a sport is different than an education? n/t

[jhasp]

259. I teach without a degree in education

1. Why would I want to force my kids to sit through institutionalized classes so they can have the opportunity to sit through something worthwhile later? I think of schools as "factory farming": stack kids in a classroom, feed them all the same thing, and move them all on together at the same time to a new "feeding" station.

2. I live two blocks from the high school. I feel sorry for the kids that I see riding by on buses at 7 am when my kids are usually just waking up. Studies show that kids just don't get enough sleep to perform at their peak. Your response is that my kids shouldn't be able to play on sports teams because they aren't punished enough. Also, my kids aren't done in four hours in a day. Their "seat time" is about 4 to 5 hours and then they have to do some kind of physical activity for an hour or two. At night we also usually have some reading time and we have social times throughout the week. Today we have two other kids coming over for most of the morning and this afternoon we're all going to a "family camp", where the kids will go off with facilitators and they'll get to ride horses, do arts, jump on trampolines, etc. with other kids.

3. The state entrusts me with the education of young adults and yet the only class I've taken on teaching was a 1 hour credit course that could have been named "how to maximize your teaching evaluations". No classes on classroom management, developing curricula, writing on the board, etc. I was required to figure this out on my own. You don't need a bachelor degree to teach, you need a bachelor degree to manage a classroom. I would much rather have teachers that were passionate about their subject matter than ones that were trained on how to teach.

Homeschooling gives you a lot of flexibility. My six year old son and five year old daughter both started 1st grade last week. My wife was teaching geography and the kids were both interested in Egypt and the pyramids, so my wife: 1) got out a globe and showed them where Egypt was, 2) went online and found videos about the pyramids and mummies, 3) got out toilet paper and let the kids wrap themselves up like mummies, and 4) got out Legos and helped them build pyramids. Today, I set my son up on Khan Academy and he's going wild on the math, running into the living room every 10 minutes or so and telling me how well he's done. Mind you, this is in addition to the math that he's completing in the curriculum that we use.

This idea that homeschooling is classist is simply not true. I'm solid middle class and most (actually, I think all) of the homeschooling families that I know are not as well off as my family. I drive a 13 year old car and am fortunate that my job is only 2.5 miles from my house. My wife has the "new" car that we bought used and is 5 years old. We don't have cable TV. We have one pay-as-you-go cell phone between us (my wife keeps it in case she needs it when she goes out during the day). Our vacations typically involve camping somewhere, because it's so inexpensive. As much as we can, we buy our food in bulk or directly from the farmers. In order to homeschool, we make sacrifices, but we think that it's worth it.

We can design schools to maximize learning and creativity, but it will be a long journey. Parents need to stop seeing school as a babysitting service and need to get directly involved with their children's education.

[blueamy66]

313. "family camp"

sounds ominous to me

You've missed my entire point. Maybe that's because you don't have a teaching degree.

[BNJMN]

75. Every. Second. Of. My. Ever. Loving. God. Forsaken. Nit. Picking. Life.

Ever.

[TwilightGardener]

79. I've never homeschooled, and here's why: I am not a teacher. I really feel

that teaching children should be left up to professional teachers, who know what they're doing. That's just me, I have no problem if other parents want to take on that challenge. But, having helped with homework all these years...no, I'm not suited to it. I HAVE NO PATIENCE.

[sense]

329. I hated helping with homework

too..... because it was so dumbed down that my child would refuse to do it for hours on end while I tried to convince him, talk him into it, cajole, wheedle, beg, bribe.....

So, we just dumped school and let him learn the myriad of things he was interested instead. Much, much easier on all of us and he entered college at 16 speaking 5 languages and doing extremely well in all of the other subjects he chose to learn about. No, I didn't sit with him at the kitchen table, teaching from the bible and then lock him away from the normal people......

I facilitated his education in the community and online and he absolutely regained his love of learning that had been beaten out of him in school! The bullying, being beaten up, being made fun of because he wanted to learn.... that all stopped when we removed him from school.

One of the secrets that you don't find out about until you allow your children not to go to school is that all that fighting and struggling over homework just doesn't have to happen. It took my child a long time to recover from school, but each day got better and better. While it was certainly time consuming to spend my days facilitating his education, getting him wherever he needed to be so that he could learn what he was interested in, it was enjoyable time. No more fighting about repetitive, completely worthless homework. Learning became 24/7, instead of 6 hours a day in a classroom. Absolutely what he needed.

[Bunny]

82. What does this have to do with smoking?

:shrug:

[Bluebear]

211. +

[The Straight Story]

315. What does smoking and abortion have to do with choice?

Both are about adults being able to make a choice free from the interference of others.

SOME of us believe in choice and stand up for it, some don't.

[Roy Ellefson]

85. Public Schools

I'm a big fan of public schools I think it is one of the most progressive gifts those who preceded us gave to us and this country. Nothing wrong with home-schooling--I've sent four kids through the public schools and my wife is a 2nd grade teacher--certain parents are very capable of home-schooling their children...unfortunately the home schooling movement is dominated by right wing so-called Christians who use it to separate their children from the "secular world" and as a protest to what they see as "un-godly" public schools...I'm suspicious of the movement because I see it as an attack on public schools.

[w8liftinglady]

93. i support homeschooling.

that said, my partner is a public school teacher who has has both previously home-schooled students and previously private schooled students.

he said the main problem with previously home-schooled students is that they don't have the independence that they might have had at home. he never had an issue with them being less-than-educated.

now...the private religious schools here...a different story. His students are usually 2-3 grade levels behind when they transfer to public school.

[miss_hope27]

96. I had that problem as a child

as well.. I was in Catholic elementary school until the 8th grade, but once I attended Public high school, I noticed how far behind I was especially in Science and History.

[w8liftinglady]

97. my partner teaches math, and his best friend teaches science

they both have expressed similar sentiments (they are both very open-minded when it comes to home schooling)

[metalbot]

205. I had the opposite experience

When I finished Catholic elementary, I was way ahead of most people when I entered public school.

[blueamy66]

258. Wow....

then why did 97% of the kids at my Catholic alma mater move on to college last year? With 65% on scholarship?

[ChazII]

99. No one should have to defend their choice.

While your choice is to homeschool you should not have defend that choice. I am newly retired from a 31 year teaching career and it would irritate me that my peers would be against those who decided to homeschool.

[Maat]

112. Thanks for your post.

You are a very aware, classy person.

[ChazII]

290. You're welcome, Maat.

It helped brighten my day.

To me, it comes down to choice and knowing one's own child. I have a friend who has a child in public school and homeschools her other one. The one that is homeschooled does have severe health issues to neurofibromatosis. Due to dr. appt and tests too many regular school days are missed. She also does have her BA in education.

[blueamy66]

314. Should "defending their choice" only apply to homeschooling?

nt

[NashVegas]

100. If I Had Children I'd Homeschool Them In a Heartbeat

Fuck the "but they aren't being socialized" crap.

When being socialized means being forced to spend time around children who have the great misfortune to live with divorce-guilt-ridden, selfish, or other (for any reason) neglectful or abusive families and accept that as the norm, that's the line being towed by people who don't have the backbone to get rid of all the unnecessary shit they will spend on, just to keep up with the Joneses. Fuck 'em.

In 12 years, those same people will be falling all over themselves to tell us how important it is to home-school, just like they're currently all starting up food blogs and Tweeting to tell us how important it is to eat organics and local (20 years after progressives already knew it).

[Roy Ellefson]

103. attacks

actually they'll be doing that as a way to further attack public schools...the home schooling is better argument will be a companion to the accelerated push to privatize education.

[NashVegas]

177. Many Years Ago I'd Have Agreed With You

7 years in Catholic school where we were told all public school kids are "ruffians," 7 in public where I got a quality education.

Part of my apathy towards public school at this time comes from seeing the writing on the wall: school "reform" is coming whether we want it or not. Anyone who leaves their kid in a public school or a voucher-fed private school in, say, the next 5 years, is handing a future automaton over to the state.

High schoolers are now, in some states, required to take "Financial literacy" courses. Please tell me you're not dumb enough to imagine that doesn't fit in with corptacracy goals will make its way in.

[jhasp]

261. I taught a class on financial literacy this summer...

and am developing a program for college students that will teach financial literacy. Financial literacy programs are about as anti-corptacracy (sp?) as you can get. We teach students to recognize the effects of their decisions today (using credit cards excessively, taking out unnecessary loans, choosing to work more and study less, etc.) on their future. I've been a member of my University's academic appeals committee for the last three years, and one of the biggest problems that we see is students making bad choices regarding their finances (spending too much on eating out, entertainment, etc.), which leads to working more hours, lower grades, and then a seat in front of our committee asking to be given the chance to stay in and agreeing to work fewer hours so that they have more study time. Our goal with teaching financial literacy is to save students from a lot of stress and to increase retention rates, not to help corporations.

[KamaAina]

105. A dear friend is the world's 13th Most Extraordinary Homeschooler

right above St. Timmeh! (Oh, by the way, Margaret Atwood's on the list, too. :-) )

http://www.thebestcolleges.org/the-worlds-15-most-extraordinary-homeschoolers/

13. Sunaura Taylor



Sunaura Taylor is an artist, writer and activist for animals and the disabled. She taught herself to paint while being unschooled by her artist mother and musician father in Athens, GA. Taylor has arthrogryposis multiplex congenita, a rare congenital joint disorder that prevents her from using her legs or arms, and believes the disease was caused by the toxic effect of contaminated waste illegally dumped by the U.S. Military near her birthplace in Tucson, AZ. Using her mouth, Taylor paints extraordinarily vivid and moving portraits of her subjects, primarily people with disabilities and animals, intending to raise philosophical and political issues surrounding disability/normalcy, personal identity and animal ethics. She appears in the film Examined Life, by her sister Astra Taylor (see above), discussing disability issues with the well known American philosopher Judith Butler. Taylor has won several awards for her work, including the Joan Mitchell Foundation award in 2008, and was featured on NPR’s All Things Considered.

:loveya:

[Maat]

106. Hiya, TSS! Yes, I have to constantly defend it.

I just saw this thread. In solidarity!

I go through a charter school run by public school employees. We meet with a fully-credentialed public school teacher once per month. I do this because I do not want to be harassed by anyone. I am a retired social worker, with many friends and acquaintances who are still active. I am able to say to them, "I go through a school, and my daughter's progress is evaluated every month. You can't say that I don't have an educational plan, or that it's neglect, or whatever. Leave us the heck alone!"

So, it's more than just defending it in conversation. Some a-holes would cause you trouble with the authorities, if they could.

I am very libertarian (pro-choice), as opposed to be authoritarian.

Folks say that my daughter is charming, and a great conversationalist. She has been able to develop her artistic talents this way. She just never fit into the conventional hole, and is what's best for her. She hasn't had useless, potentially debilitating labels hung on her; she's thrived!

[Shandris]

111. Wait, wait, wait...

...you mean home-schooled kids don't have trouble socializing when taken to 'community events' full of 'enrichment programs' filled with like-minded individuals that are cut from the same mold as their parents who are homeschooling them, or even when going to a big university later and making friends with people who have the exact same interests, like, say, a paintball club? NO SHIT?! Stop the presses, we got us some news!

ANYONE can make friends in a group of like-minded individuals all focused on the same things with people who resemble the dominant control archetypes in their lives. THAT'S not what 'socializing' is about. It's learning to deal with those who DON'T agree, who hate the kid just because, the ones who feel contempt for them and want to go out of their way to embarrass them on the job so they are denied the promotion they SHOULD earn by merit. It's the ability to take the boss to a bar and bullshit with him about banal things that are of NO INTEREST to a well-educated person, yet have to be done in most (especially corporate) environs to ever have a shot at making a pay raise. It's the application of politics in a workplace setting to avoid the tricky landmines that populate a new workplace before you even arrive there for your orientation. THESE are the things that home-schoolers lack.

I noticed an extreme lack of actual home-schooled people responding in the thread thus far, but I sure did see a LOT of pissy parents who are just positive they can keep up with Math PHD's and whatnot in educating their children, and HOW DARE YOU SAY OTHERWISE YOU NARROW-MINDED RACIST BIGOT ANTI-CHOICE AUTHORITARIAN WITH NO KNOWLEDGE OF HOMESCHOOLING AT ALL AND...

When I was still able to work, I met many homeschooled people joining our entry-tier workforce. As a rule they were great workers, with few exceptions. And every last one of them was gone before they finished their fourth week, despite the pay being rather decent for the type of office work. Without exception it was because of isolation, office politics, and an inability to 'get' why they weren't treated as special people because they worked harder than the '80 IQ lead-lickers'. In a perfect world, a true meritocracy, maybe homeschooling would be the best alternative. In the world that presently exists...it's downright crippling for many (not all; depends on where they end up, of course).

[Maat]

113. And to the critics I say, "Luckily you don't get to make the choice for us."

Moreover, my husband has an advanced degree plus in chemical engineering, and is quite capable of educating my daughter in math and science. Count me as one of the homeschoolers.

[Shandris]

115. Who ever said faith is dead? Clearly they haven't met any homeschooling parents.

Some of you are more militant than any other group out there...which I find amusing to no end, I assure you.

Hey, I'm not trying to make your choice for you. Maybe trying to save you some heartache down the line, but you'll never see it coming just like my parents didn't. It would interfere with your parade. Good luck...to your daughter.

[uppityperson]

120. How DARE a homeschooling parent get upset at being called Pissy?!?! I'm SERIES!!!!!

Damn those militant pissy home schooling parents for their pissy attitudes towards being insulted!!!!!111111

[Maat]

155. Rest assured ... she's doing fine ...

and will continue to do so. I'm glad I brought amusement to you. :)

[Luminous Animal]

145. FYI, my daughter is 21 years old... all of her current friends are private or public school educated

and she thanks me, now and again, for homeschooling her. She is old enough to recognize the wide breadth of her education, the luxury of contemplation, and the exposure that she had to a multitude viewpoints and people.

[Maat]

154. Now, THAT is nice to know.

Thanks for the post.

[uppityperson]

119. Is your complaint that homeschooled kids treat people with respect and don't know how to deal with

bullies?

Also, thank you for showing how insulting of others you can be.

[Shandris]

126. I'll answer in reverse.

To number two: You're welcome. Your 'side' did it the whole thread, enjoy some back. If you can't accept some criticism from the people who are working with the homeschooled kids you're putting out there, then you have no right to teach.

To number one: Essentially? Yes. That leaves them ill-prepared, but it's not a level of preparedness that YOU recognize because YOU aren't the one who had to deal with it, or deal with its' after-effects, or anything of the sort. Not being able to deal with negative people, not having the right tools to cope with it, and never having had to cope with it before are all TERRIBLE places to be once you're out of your parents' home and on your own. Drug addiction, alcoholism, improper anger management, these things lead to hate and bigotry and so forth. But it's not something YOU will likely see until it's too late -- they don't want to disappoint you, after all. They'll show up to your house sober, and if you miss the fact that they're eating less and less, hey, that just happens, yannow? Maybe they were dieting. Couldn't POSSIBLY be because Special Susie is knocking off a liter a night of vodka to keep herself self-medicated, oh no.

[uppityperson]

127. Home schooled people are sociopaths or don't know how to be sheep.

Number 2, I don't have a "side" beyond accepting that there is no one right answer for everyone and that both home and public schooling can have positive and negative aspects.

Number 1: Home schoolers haven't learned to be sheep and this is...bad. Oh kay. I'd rather have people do work that doesn't involve them being sheep. There are plenty of people happy to be sheep. Let them do so and let those who don't want to do something else.

For some reason you assume a home schooled person has never had to deal with anything bad, that all is sweetness and light. That is quite an assumption and quite a wrong one for many. And for some reason you also seem to be saying that home schooled people have a higher rate of being drug addicts, alcoholics, bigots, etc. I am not sure wtf you are basing this on. You seriously believe that there are no addicts, alcoholics, bigots amongst public schooled kids?

Poor logic and a lot of assumptions there.

[Shandris]

130. Yeah okay.

You're right, I don't know what I'm talking about. CLEARLY I said there were no addicts among those who weren't home-schooled, and that I believed that with all my heart and soul. CLEARLY I said everything was sweet and light, and hell they shit rainbows and unicorns too.

CLEARLY I said that they needed to be sheep.

Oh wait, no I didn't. On second thought, I think I'll just let you continue to step in and attack other people. You can leave now.

[uppityperson]

131. Poor logic. You call homeschool parents pissy, militant and claim I am attacking.

You can't address the issues so you become foul mouthed and aggressive. Oh kay.

Since you were expressing a worry about homeschooled people becoming alcoholics, drug abusers, improper anger managers, bigots, yes, you assume they have more trouble than public schoolers. You claim homeschoolers are only exposed to people just like them and this can lead to all sorts of stuff. Lots of assumptions there.

Not being able to deal with negative people, not having the right tools to cope with it, and never having had to cope with it before are all TERRIBLE places to be once you're out of your parents' home and on your own. Drug addiction, alcoholism, improper anger management, these things lead to hate and bigotry and so forth. But it's not something YOU will likely see until it's too late -- they don't want to disappoint you, after all. They'll show up to your house sober, and if you miss the fact that they're eating less and less, hey, that just happens, yannow? Maybe they were dieting. Couldn't POSSIBLY be because Special Susie is knocking off a liter a night of vodka to keep herself self-medicated, oh no.

What makes you think this applies to home schooled people and not public schooled people? Since this thread IS about home schooling, and since you have made your view clear that home schooled people can and often do have problems listed above, WHY would this not apply equally to public schooled people?

Ok. Now you can attack me OR you can address this.

[Shandris]

148. "Logic". You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

And if you think 'Hell, they shit rainbows' is 'foul-mouthed and aggressive', well there's not much anyone can do for you.

I did not say, imply, insinuate, speak, verbalize, type, cut, carve, stamp, hew, engrave, solder, intimate, copper-stain, trace, pictograph, jpeg, png, Captcha, or in any other way communicate that these things do not apply to other, public-schooled people also, so please...stop using 'logic' in a sentence then using a logical FALLACY in the very same response. What I DID say is that they are MORE susceptible to it because, as a GENERAL TENDENCY, home-schooled kids have not had to deal with the kinds of people that they will often encounter in the workplace whereas public-schooled individuals have had several years in dealing with these types. These INCLUDE, but are not LIMITED TO, nor is EXCLUSIVE TO, bullies, sabotagers, nattering nabobs of negativity, incompetent bosses, unfair pay scale-enforcing executives, unsympathetic human resource directors, bosses who refuse to promote based on merit, contemptuous people who simply will not like them for WHATEVER reason or no reason at all, and sundry other peoples that a career in a public school would have introduced them to, but a career in homeschooling is often crafted around avoiding. Witness the person upthread who said he/she was pulling their children out to home-school BECAUSE OF A BULLY. This would be wonderful, if that were always an option -- to simply leave a bully. However, it isn't always an option. Sometimes money, circumstance, work, customer service, et al will conspire to put you in such a situation for extended periods of time. The only 'life skill' that this example child has learned is to...flee from it. Now what will happen?

This is as plain as day to anyone who has lived through it. Unfortunately, most of you home-school parents have NOT lived through it and as such have no idea what I'm talking about, and furthermore consider it an affront to SUGGEST that the same could happen to their perfect child. So, if you don't get it at this point, I don't know what to tell you nor do I care to discover it.

[uppityperson]

150. that person was me. Not "because of a bully" and 1 child for part of a yr

Gee, for some reason you missed that the bullying issue was my post. Follow along.

Working with the teacher and principal did not help. There was widespread bullying and rather than having my child continue to go to doctors, get tests, be home sick half the time, yes. I did pull the kid out of a bad situation. My child learned that you try and persevere and sometimes you can leave a bad situation. It was an option and it helped immensely.

The kid is now managing a shop, promoted over people who have been there longer, are older, were public school trained, and is moving up in the business world as a young adult BECAUSE has learned how to deal with people of all sorts. Including learning how to deal with people with respect.

What I DID say is that they are MORE susceptible to it because, as a GENERAL TENDENCY, home-schooled kids have not had to deal with the kinds of people that they will often encounter in the workplace whereas public-schooled individuals have had several years in dealing with these types.

I'd like to see a link to any proof beyond your anecdote. We can counter anecdotes all day without proving anything. My position remains that home schooling is not an option for everyone, neither is public schooling. Each has potential positives and negative.

[Maat]

156. I stand in support of homeschoolers and their parents.

Technically, we homestudy; that having been said, you made a great choice! I applaud you!

Moreover, yes, one CAN always leave a bullying situation; that is a choice in life, and one which I'm teaching my kid to make.

[joeglow3]

122. Hate to bust your bubble

Of all the things you mentioned (i.e. bullying, workplace behavior, etc.), are you claiming those things are perpetuated by adults who were homeschooled as kids? Do you have any evidence to support your claim on these behaviors or are you simply stating as fact what you THINK?

Looking at anecdotal evidence, many of the people I know exhibiting the behavior you mention went to public schools. Of the 2 people I know who were home-schooled, NEITHER exhibits those behaviors.

[Shandris]

129. Erm...no, that's exactly the OPPOSITE of what I said.

That behavior is perpetrated by the public-school kids, no doubt. But it's also nominal 'normal' behavior in the reality of the so-called 'adult' workforce. I'm saying that Home-schooled kids aren't prepared to deal with it, though, and that sets them up for a very bad path unless they are one of the lucky ones who gets into a line of work where that isn't common, or has some supra-special quality that supersedes their inability to relate. SURELY you realize that 'being smart' is every bit as much a curse as it is a blessing. I've been accused of being smart all my life, and I'd trade it all for 10 minutes of 'normality' in a public setting just to know what it felt like.

Now does that mean that every HS kid is going to end up that way? No. But a disturbingly large number of them do. A portion of my family home-schools their 2 daughters, and they're so very smart, so likeable, so friendly. Until more than 3 people are in a setting, then they isolate themselves, and look to their parents to approve them speaking EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY'RE SPOKEN TO. Think they'll do any good in a corporate setting? One is already walking my path (and it doesn't have a pretty ending), the other one has found JAYSUS and he's gunna make everything better!

[Sarah Ibarruri]

186. How come I get the feeling you've studied this in depth? You've explained the problem perfectly

I have never seen the problem with homeschooling explained as succinctly and in-depth as you have explained it.

Parents that homeschool have a real ego trip about their homeschooling. I often get the feeling that they don't care a rat's patootie that they might be turning out a human being who just will never be able to fit in properly with the real world out there because they forced their children to miss the opportunity to socialize with people and peers in the real world.

[uppityperson]

188. You complement someone who has been rude and insulting rather than listening

to teachers and parents who have been involved with public and home schooling.

You either refuse to believe all who tell you of all the socializing their kids did, or you refuse to learn that it is possible that not every or even most home schoolign falls into your narrow definition. Some do of course but the majority?

Incredible.

Betcha you were public schooled.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

197. He's explaining exactly what I've observed in homeschoolers after they leave home

Why should I lie and say he's inaccurate?

[Shandris]

260. Thank you, Sarah.

Sorry so late in responding, I wasn't online at all yesterday (and wow do I have withdrawal! :P )

Uppityperson, if I've been rude and condescending at times, it's because I see here a LOT of people here who seem to view any challenge to their home-schooling choice as a challenge to their parenting, a challenge to their very ego, and they lash out accordingly. Throughout the thread from the very second post this has been the case. (Before I go any further, allow me to point out that this isn't universal, or in every case or response, but is a generalization. We don't call someone's comment wrong because one exception can be found when discussing large topics; if it did, we may as well give up SS and Medicaid/Medicare RIGHT NOW because while fraud isn't widespread, it DOES exist. But we recognize that generalities are very useful in discussions, and a few exceptions will always be noted.)

You see, what I don't see is a lot of people considering anything that the opponents of home-schooling (or those with reservations about it) have expressed that is counter to their direct experience. They expect us to overlook OUR experience, but want us to rely on THEIR experience. I don't see the CENTRAL focus as being on the children involved; it's on the parent and their 'choice', and the children are considered to be doing fine if their scores are high because hey, they go to 'socialization' classes or 'enrichment experiences'. To realize how uncomfortable those phrases are, it only takes one to consider how trustworthy such euphemistic phrases are when discussing 'empowering seniors' and 'strengthening Social Security' -- they're pretty-sounding, and occasionally even true...but not usually. My whole stake in this is the children -- I have none, so my view of the topic isn't clouded by parental fears of public schooling, the pressures of other parents, and so forth. If I can get ONE SINGLE PARENT to listen to me -- whether they were first insulted by my -vehemence- that you are mistaking for rudeness or not -- then I have accomplished my goal, which is to prevent other children from going through what I did, what some home-schooled children in my family are going through now and coming up soon, and what I have seen in other non-related home-schooled children who came up in the years since I took off on my own and now. For that, I will make no apologies.

I've never called for home-schooling to be abolished, or to be made illegal. There are some cases -- and some may well be in this thread -- where home-schooling is fine. Parents who DO know the subject material from being teachers themselves make excellent home-school teachers, provided they let their children out to have a life that isn't supervised 24/7. Parents who are perhaps overly critical of themselves while teaching (a deliberate attempt to overcome the Dunning-Kruger effect) also have a very good chance of being good HS parents. But those who are using it as a method of ego-stroking, of 'caring' for the child by projecting their own public school fears and memories, of teaching a specific world-view to 'imprint' on a child (liberal OR conservative, I make no distinction in this case) in order to slant a child's learning...these kinds of people are setting themselves up to potentially destroy their children's lives, and they are PROUD of themselves for doing it because IN THEIR MIND it's the best decision, or 'for their (the children's) own good'.

[sense]

330. Perhaps you're not paying attention,

just following your prejudice. You really have no idea, except for your small, anecdotal example of entry tier employees. Now there's a broad range of types.... I never stated that I was able to teach my child everything he needed and wanted to learn. I facilitated his education, as many do and found him what he needed in the way of mentors and teachers. He spoke five languages when he entered college at 16. I speak one. He was and is a kind, generous and extremely thoughtful individual. Get the whole individual thing? Prejudice is judging the many by the few... try not to be so.

[Lucian]

133. Homeschooling = overparenting = wrong

People who homeschool their kids want to control every aspect of their kid's life. Cut the umbilical cord already and let them get a proper public education.

Homeschooling should only be for kids who can't go to public school because of some form of disability.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

136. my kids are getting a much better education at home...

your views indicate you are either terribly uninformed...terribly biased...or both. i am betting it's both.

sP

[Lucian]

139. Or the truth hurts.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

149. yep...you know my kids...and you know our situation

and you've seen how we do homeschool....that makes you terribly informed (I will simply not assume that you can pick out sarcasm so :sarcasm: )

sP

[sense]

334. Nope. She was right. It's both.

[kelly1mm]

140. My wife is a public school teacher. She knows what goes on in the schools.

That is why we homeschool.

[Maat]

157. I understand completely, kelly1mm!

In solidarity,

Maat

[laundry_queen]

146. blanket statements = wrong nt

[sense]

333. More prejudice.

People who ski are idiots. That makes the same amount of sense that your post did. How about people who wear red? People who love asparagus?

Who are these people who were cookie cutter stamped out of one mold based on one thing you know about them and a complete lack of knowledge about home schooling?

Home schooling is what this "other" thing is called. It doesn't describe how people educate their children.... just that they don't begin by shipping them off, en masse, to a building with only the same age kids to interact with all day. That's it.

Please step into this century and open your mind. You have no idea what you're talking about and should try to listen, as opposed to proving your ignorance.

Your opinion is of no value when people are discussing factual things.

[awoke_in_2003]

134. I only have one problem with homeschooling...

and that is not getting the opportunity to learn how to socialize with peers. Of course, that probably only applies to most of the people who homeschool down here, and keep there kids in a cocoon until they are 18.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

137. another person who is uninformed about homeschooling

what a shocker!

sP

[Lucian]

141. Enlighten us, oh wise one.

[uppityperson]

142. Here is a good place to start learning. Read this topic and see what you find

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1747186

[Maat]

158. He would but he's probably too BUSY ...

EDUCATING his kid!

I, for one, am too busy to deal with the crap here.

[awoke_in_2003]

so you had the chance...

to enlighten me (which uppity has) yet chose to be snarky? I don't think I attacked homeschooling. I made a statement based on what I perceived, and I was corrected.

on edit: the only exposure I have to homeschooling is through quite a few people I have worked with over the years. They are all fundies, and they do cocoon their children.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

151. yes, I chose snark because you, like so many others here,

would rather blather on about how bad homeschooling is than bother to learn about it. instead of asking about socialization of the children involved, you made the blanket assumption that they don't get 'properly' socialized. that ticks me off. i am sorry i took it out on your post...i don't know you and shouldn't be snarky but i have had it up to my eyeballs with people making assumptions about homeschooling rather than talking about homeschooling. for that i apologize...

there are loads of homeschooling parents right here on this board, and yet they are looked down upon because they choose to offer something to their children that others cannot or will not.

sP

[awoke_in_2003]

174. I should have framed it as a question...

so maybe I had it coming. Enjoy your day :hi:

[Luminous Animal]

160. I really do not get this attitude at all.

The homeschoolers in my daughter's group met every Tuesday for play group. On top of that, my daughter took free or very low cost acting classes, science workshops, dance classes, writing classes, soccer and free track and field. Outside of the the homeschooling group, we went to the neighborhood park several days a week and timed it with after-school groups. From these resources is where she made many of her friends that she continues to have today (she's 21 years old) and not one of these friends were homeschooled.

[librechik]

143. yes, yes, nothing but skepticism and smears, but I've always hated conformity

so don't mind spitting in the eye of those offended by my choice to remove my child from the conformity engine that was my public shool system. He is grown now and doing very well.

[laundry_queen]

147. Conformity engine is exactly what public school is.

And you can see that by how many people here are threatened by homeschooling.

[fascisthunter]

144. There is a problem with Parents who use homeschooling to brainwash their kids

with their religion... and by doing so, they are hiding their kids from alternatives that are probably being misinterpreted for the sake of controlling the child's thought towards culture, education, non-religious, etc.

I knew two couples in a company I work for where the parents ultra religious right wingers, and they admitted to me that that was their reason. I think what these parents have done is dangerous! Not saying all do the same...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

152. yes, using it to hide your kids is NOT good!

they need to see the rest of the world for how it is...

sP

[Maat]

159. HeeHee -

fellow homeschooler here. You gave me a good laugh. Thanks! Keep on going! You're doing a great thing!

In summary, I do feel like critics attempt to put me on the defensive with respect to my decision to homeschool; but, I don't let it bother me anymore.

In solidarity,

Maat

P.S. I have to add that prejudice like that expressed in this thread is one reason I parted with the Democratic Party shortly after Obama assumed office. I enjoy hanging around fellow homeschooling parents, and most of them are more libertarian (as opposed to authoritarian). I've come to understand their viewpoints. I still fully support union members and social programs, and basically agree with the Green Party program. I've just become more aware of the herd mentality, as have they.

I don't bother defending homeschooling to any great length, or my decision to homeschool. I try to support homeschoolers on this board; but, frankly, I only spend so much time on it. I take down the names of homeschoolers, so that I can PM them, and so that we can support each other. I'd participate more in the Homeschooling Group, but it's really not private. Too many non-homeschoolers wander over there; so, it's not the refuge it was meant to be. It seems that efforts to correct the ignorance about homeschooling are fairly futile. It was quite a surprise, initially, to find out how close-minded my then fellow Dems were (how ANTI-choice they really were). That led to the aforementioned parting of the ways with the Party (it was one of the factors, should I say).

Excuse me, Folks, for I am going to go plan my daughter's math lesson.

[fascisthunter]

166. My Post has nothing to do with You

I was very clear in my post as to whom I was speaking of...

[Maat]

178. I was talking to Prod ... (n/t).

[fascisthunter]

203. yes, to a reply to me

[Maat]

210. Whatever.

Have a nice day.

[fascisthunter]

167. No, they need to realize they are Part of the World

and that the World their parents are forcing them into is a bubble devoid of any reality besides that of a religious fanatic.

[Odin2005]

190. There is a problem with our government using public schools to make kids corporate drones.

Sit. Obey. Do not question authority. You brought the bullying on yourself. That is what kids learn in our schools.

[uppityperson]

192. +1000. Too often this is the case. I know some wonderful teachers, but the system

blocks so much of what they could. Too many kids/class without enough help. Sit down. Shut up. How much time is wasted every day getting the kids to settle down so lessons can start? How much time is wasted waiting for the most disruptive kids to settle down.

[fascisthunter]

204. so what should we all do then? Should we all just teach kids at home

with no standard curriculum?

Also, did you notice how I mentioned religious extremists brainwashing their kids? My statement was not towards homeschooling in general.

Also, what you just claimed by stating public schools brainwashing kids is a perfect argument against any form of public education. SO what now... no education standards, and hope to a gawd your parents are educated enough to give you the curriculum you will need later in life.

[dembotoz]

162. no standards, ripe for abuse

we homeschooled my middle child for 2nd grade
his 1st grade theacher melted down and he never learned how to read......

/worked out ok for him.........

went to a conference on homeschooling -- a statewide thing.

beside the exhibits from the wing nuts and fruitcakes, i was mostly alarmed at the lack of standards
and their glorify the lack of standards.
In wisconsin at the time, you could do pretty much whatever you damned well pleased and no one would do anything--parents rights and all

if you wanted to have you kids working in your restaurant from sun up to sun down and you called it
educational activitiy--don't think anyone can touch you.

have them smoke dope all day and then give them all A's there is pressure on the local schools to accept the grades.

[KamaAina]

163. As with any other form of schooling, it's all about teacher quality

If you're homeschooled by some :dunce: who thinks wood is a food group, you're not going to learn much. But if your parent is college-educated, well, that's a whole diiferent story.

[NNN0LHI]

170. I have a college educated niece who home schools her kids

She is teaching them from the bible which she considers the complete truth. She won't wear anything but long dresses and her hair must be tied up into a bun like a pioneer woman. Same for the kids.

On the lead up to the Iraq war she was here at my house with the kids and her controlling husband. When I told her that I didn't think invading Iraq was such a good idea she looked at me like I was from Mars.

So she asked me why I felt that way. So I said sit down and I would explain it to her. I got two words out before her asshole husband came storming into the room pointing his finger at me for even trying to discuss it with her. Ideas from outside the home or their church were not allowed. Her husband nearly got his finger broken completely off by me that day.

But the controlling asshole husband accomplished what he wanted. My niece never did find out why I thought invading Iraq was a bad idea.

I feel so sorry for her and her kids.

Don

[KamaAina]

171. Okay, let's throw curriculum into the mix, too

Point One: Any curriculum that's over 2000 years old is an automatic FAIL.

[sense]

332. Curriculum is not necessary either.

Un schooling is where the child gets to learn what they're interested in, when they're actually interested in it. It's been proven to be the best method for absorbing and retaining knowledge. Imagine. Studying things you're interested in, instead of whatever mass produced garbage has been ordained by the powers that be.

Children love to learn. Many will argue that's not true, but they will be wrong. If we allow them the time and opportunity to learn, they will. We are all individuals and we function better when we are treated as such. We filled our house with books and offered every opportunity for learning and different experiences that we could think of and then accessed online listservs and such for even more ideas. They were exposed to all sorts of things that the children confined in their schools for so many hours every day could not access and they thrived and have a love of learning that they will have for the rest of their lives.

My eldest is enrolled in the most academic college in the US ( according to some lists, and it's always near the top of the other lists) and loves it. It's a great fit for him, something school never was.

[sense]

331. I don't have a college education, but

I home school my children. I'm well aware that I'm not capable of teaching them everything. I facilitate their education online and in the community. My eldest currently speaks 6 languages and I speak 1. A college education isn't necessary and is irrelevant. Being aware of what your children need, who they are and being able to do your own research are important.

[JoePhilly]

165. I know 2 home school families ... very different families.

The one family is totally normal, the second is absolutely nuts.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

175. I live in the country and the homeschoolers here are fundies.

They are all busy protecting their kids from the evils of the world. It ain't gonna work.

Guy cutting a tree down was talking to DH. DH mentioned Neil deGrasse Tyson. Didn't ring any bells.
DH then said that Tyson was a protege of Carl Sagan. Well, that got the stupid redneck's blood boiling, because Sagan talked about evolution, and treecutter is a creationist. Said that homeschooling is better. Great, another idiot that wants his kids to be stupid, unskilled, ignorant ditchdiggers that don't have any skills.

Everybody around here runs on HATE. Hate the blacks, hate the black President, hate them lazy Mezzcans for takin' all our jobs away. Everything is someone else's fault and they are not blaming the rich for their economic collapse.

:banghead:

[NNN0LHI]

176. I have a neighbor who hates Obama because of no decent jobs and crummy pay for his kids

There have always been two newer imported cars in his driveway since he moved here. All he drove for the over 20 years he have lived here and as his kids were growing up were imported cars. There are two union auto plants within driving distance of his house. I worked at one. And in his mind he is convinced it is all Obama's fault that there are no decent jobs for his kids now.

:banghead:

[GoneOffShore]

184. Home school is the difference between driving your car or taking public transport.

Sure, there are special circumstances for specific kids, but public school, despite its bad reputation (created by those who wish to make a profit), is, like public transport, parks and public health, a "great, good, public space".

It levels the playing field.

It makes sure that our children meet people outside of their socio-economic class, their religious beliefs and their political upbringing.

Home schooling, seems to me, to be a place to enforce a belief system.

If, and this is a big if, more parents were involved with the public system, the public system would be better. But that is like getting more people to vote.

Public education, in my opinion, should be the norm, not the exception. And I'm sorry, it's really not about "choice", it's not about being a "customer", it's about what we want as a society.

If there are too many opt outs from the public system it will collapse and that's not a good thing.

[Odin2005]

191. That is a very authoritarian attitude that I reject.

[GoneOffShore]

199. Please explain how wanting to have more engagement in the public sphere

Is, as you put it, authoritarian.

Liberal societies place a high value on public engagement.

Those who opt out of the public sector help contribute to its demise.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

193. Do you allow your kids to smoke in home-school?

[WiffenPoof]

195. My Take on Homeschooling

First...some of the most defensive people I have met (and you can see it here as well) are parents who home school. There is a post up a ways in this thread that is pretty typical.

Look...my only complaint about people that home school is that they are directly or indirectly not supportive of public education.

Often a parent will say...I home school because I don't want my child to be exposed to the horrors of public school...you know, drugs, gangs, sex, etc. etc. As far as I'm concerned, people that home school are abandoning the public school system. Why not try and improve the public school system instead of pulling your kids out?

You see...when you support the public school system, you are contributing to society in a positive way. When you get involved in the public school system, you are giving something back and benefiting the future of our culture and society. When you pull your kids out...you are abandoning all of the other children. I suppose it is a matter of whether or not you feel that you have an obligation to the rest of society.

-P

On Edit: Imagine if you spent half of the time you do homeschooling your children getting involved in the public school system...Maybe they would be in much better shape...and you would be benefiting more than just your own children.

[GoneOffShore]

201. There you go using logic and reason on a highly emotional issue.

:spank:

[uppityperson]

208. As at least I have said before, there are many reasons to home school.

In my case, the public school system didn't work for a period of time. You have no idea how involved I got or still am even though I have NO child in school. You have no idea how even my involvement didn't didn't work for that time (ooo, now I left myself open for being called "too involved" as is a common insult against homeschooling parents. read upthread).

Matter of fact, you probably do not know if ANY of us were involved with the public school system, yet are assuming we aren't. There are parents who abandon the public school system and all the kids in it, parents who have kids in public school as well as home school. Good lord, if even a percentage of parents with kids in public school were to be more involved they would be SO MUCH better.

I think everyone should be involved with helping educate children, whether through school or a program or even a church (yes, there are some that are ok, our local Unitarian one does a lot with kids without indoctrinating them).

"some of the most defensive people I have met (and you can see it here as well) are parents who home school. There is a post up a ways in this thread that is pretty typical". I can put that right back at you about people who are against home schooling. Like you I will not do a call out, but look up thread and you can easily see.

[WiffenPoof]

225. Well....I Understand Your Response

...and if my post doesn't apply to you then you shouldn't take it so personally. Thanks for your support of the Public School System.

And as far as my "assumption" goes...

My daughter-in-law home schools and she has zero involvement with the school system. So, you yourself shouldn't assume that all home schooling parents are involved.

"Matter of fact, you probably do not know if ANY of us were involved with the public school system, yet are assuming we aren't."

-P

[Luminous Animal]

212. Homeschooling parents are defensive because we are contantly challenged by friends, family, and

strangers.

Many of the homeschool parents that I knew were more involved in local public schools (both as advocates and volunteers) than some parents who had children in the public school.

One of the reasons that homeschooling parents are defensive are because of bullshit assumptions like this: "I home school because I don't want my child to be exposed to the horrors of public school...you know, drugs, gangs, sex, etc. etc." There are varied reasons to homeschool but, for most part, it comes down to the child's failure to thrive in a school environment. If a school is unresponsive to bullying, or a child his bored to tears, or counseled to go on drugs, many parents, after trying to work with the system and getting nowhere, will look for alternatives.

[WiffenPoof]

226. Thanks for your response...

However, you might have missed the word "Often" in my statement. I never said that drugs, sex, gangs, etc. were the ONLY reason people home schooled. Please try not to think in absolutes...it is being intellectually lazy.

-P

From my post...

"Often a parent will say...I home school because I don't want my child to be exposed to the horrors of public school...you know, drugs, gangs, sex, etc. etc."

[LeftyMom]

218. It looks to me like you've built a strawman homeschool parent, and proceeded to tear it down.

I'm a homeschooling mom. My kid's never spent a day in public or private school so far, though at some point his needs may change and I'm open to trying new things. We homeschool because that's the best option for him right now, both because of some deficiencies in the local school system (an inadequate gifted program) and because some personality traits of his make it a better option for him right now.

I can't fix the local school system. For starters, they need money, and a lot of it. I don't have it, I can't raise it, it's just not going to happen right now. However, even when times are good they don't spend that money on gifted kids, because the way that testing is so emphasized these days it makes more sense to spend money improving the skills of kids who lag behind than keeping kids who will max out a test either way from getting bored and acting out. I guess there's an argument that enrolling my kid might result in a marginal improvement because of per-pupil funding, but I suspect it would more likely just mean one more desk squeezed into an overcrowded classroom. I don't really think it's fair to make teachers in general enrollment classes juggle the needs of exceptional kids, English learners, mainstreamed sped kids and everybody in between, and I know in that situation my kid would get next to no attention or challenge. BTDT.

Asking me to enroll my kid in a school system that can't meet his needs and then try to fix it is a bit like asking me to sell my car and give the money to the transit authority- they would spend the proceeds in a day, still wouldn't have a functional system, and I'd have no way to get to work. I do not have the time, resources or patience to fight to fix a broken system- I could attempt to do so but the harm to my family would exceed the benefit to the greater community many times over, assuming I made any headway at all.

We might enroll him in a local public high school when the time comes. They have a really strong emphasis on IB and AP classes, so he can take classes with other bright, interested kids where the pacing and difficulty would work for him. If we do that and they need my help in some capacity, I'd be happy to do so- maybe I could help with the debate team or something. But that school already functions well and it would function well with or without my kid.

[WiffenPoof]

228. Thanks for your response...

Two points to think about concerning your response...

Your child is an exception to the rule. As stated earlier, homeschooling is appropriate for handicapped or otherwise challenged children. While your child is not among those, he/she is not typical and is probably best taught in an environment that better suits his/her abilities. So I agree with you.

Secondly...If you feel that there is absolutely nothing you can do to change the school system, than there is nothing I could say that would convince you otherwise. We simply disagree. I feel differently. Of course it is difficult...nothing worth doing is easy. I'm of the belief that a person needs to fight good fight and never stop. However, if you feel that it is a waste of time...like I said, there is nothing I can say to that.

Thanks again for your post.

-P

[hack89]

230. I would not sacrifice my kids education to make a shitty school better

I would volunteer my time and money to make the school a better place but my kids would be either in private school or home schooled.

[upi402]

196. Anything different draws questioning from normies

Homeschooling is very populated with Christians and a lot of resources are Christian. But there are secular resources and a forum or two for supoport and info.
http://www.secularhomeschool.com/content/

Some try to claim that homeschoolers are undermining public education. Wrong. They pay the same taxes and use no resources.

[Roy Ellefson]

202. Public Schools

Why do "homeschoolers" feel the need to attack public schools?

[GoneOffShore]

207. This will not end well.

IBTL

[uppityperson]

209. They don't attack public schools. Why do "public schoolers" feel the need to eat small kittens?

[Roy Ellefson]

214. I like puppies

I'm fine with home schooling done for the right reasons by qualified parents--but soon as the rationale for home schooling crosses the line and bashes the public schools (which it often does) I do not support home schooling.

[Luminous Animal]

213. We don't.

[Maat]

215. I encourage everyone to go over our Homeschooling Group here on DU.

At least we can support each other via PMs and posts.

[Broderick]

224. Do you have a link to that group?

We intend to homeschool and there are some great groups in our area that share resources and get together. My wife can help other parents with science, and I can help with music here and there. I am astounded how many actually homeschool, and how it isn't the ridiculous stereotypes' some here profess.

[Maat]

235. We have a homeschooling group ..

here on DU:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=251

I think that you may have to be a donor.

Also, I am a member of this group:
http://www.homeschool.com/forum/default.asp

Also, feel free to PM me about the topic.

Many blessings,

[sense]

319. Becoming more main stream all the time

due to manner factors. We home school for academic reasons. It's the best decision we ever made.

[sense]

335. many factors, not manners....

[Lucky 13]

222. I can only report my experience

EDIT: On second thought... nevermind. I don't see this being a productive conversation.

[bemildred]

227. We did it for two years, nobody gave us any trouble.

But we created our own school for that purpose, hired a teacher, admin, space, etc. then went back to regular school for 9-12 grades. That was like going to drug camp.

[B Calm]

234. I'm all the time defending my home school college. . .

[October]

239. Only here on DU

There are a lot of people who troll these threads and unrec them.

Plenty of ignorance.

My son is home schooled. He's a talented ballet dancer and socializes every day with others of various ages, talents, abilities. Private, public and other home schoolers fill the ballet studios. They all get along.

My son has studied and performed with professional companies. He interacts with adults, professionals, and other kids just fine -- he's very comfortable in his own skin. Confident and chilled.

[Odin2005]

246. Some folks just aren't happy unless every kid is forced into uniformity.

[Broderick]

247. And medicated

[Luminous Animal]

249. Nice. Congratulations to your son and to you.

[October]

288. Thank you!

He has performed on some big stages already.

[Name removed]

265. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[and-justice-for-all]

279. Sorry, but I think homeschooling should be banned..

as it is in Germany and other countries.

[B Calm]

292. But what about my home school college degree my mommy gave me?

[The Straight Story]

311. What is it with some on the left being ban happy (except abortions)?

"I don't like it and don't do, ban it"

What, you don't like choice?

[pitohui]

317. your "choice" to make your wife a slave is not a choice

or let's put it this way, it may be YOUR choice to make your wife your slave but she didn't freely make herself a slave and the child sure as shit didn't make the choice to make your wife a slave

the germans have some experience with all this facile hand waving you enjoy, that folks used to make women and children slaves, why do you wish to reinvent the wheel?

to make your wife a slave is wrong

homeschooling makes a slave of the wife, i'm trying to think of any dads other than drug addicts who didn't get a job who homeschooled their kids...nope, can't think of any

successful people who want their children to succeed hire trained experts to teach their children, scared losers who want to drag their wife and kids down like crabs in a bucket homeschool

you know it and anyone with eyes know it

next question?

[The Straight Story]

318. Put down the bong

first off, I am not married.

Secondly - I don't think the germans would have endorsed home schooling, they wanted kids to have one way of learning and thinking. Kind of like you do.

Lastly - seriously, you need some help.

[sense]

336. commenting on things you know nothing

about should be banned, then... but since you're allowed free speech, you're free to show your ignorance and prejudice to all.


Justice for all???? Give me a break.

[patrice]

297. There is no less probability of homeschooling being a mutually self-congratulatory community

than there is of the same in any other community, professional or otherwise.

In re not knowing what you don't know: At least in mainstream education, there is a mechanism that orients participants on more or less objective standards of knowledge, for example, what makes Science Science and how it produces what we call knowledge. I am not well enough informed to know what if anything fills that role in homeschooling. Some people may do well without that, but it is not probable that everyone does. The 5 or so kids I met as seniors coming into public high school in 8 years of teaching were woefully un-prepared in more than just curriculum.

[sense]

337. Your experience with 5 children, entering

public school as seniors is irrelevant. Those who didn't give up and put their children in as seniors (in a ridiculous attempt to make up for their failures), were who you should be looking at. Home schooling isn't for everyone. If it's done for the wrong reasons, such as to isolate children, it may very well fail.

[pitohui]

316. it has worked out well if you assume a woman's career is worth nothing

at the end of the day you have to look at your own conscience but when you made the decision to homeschool you made the decision that your wife's time and career was worth zero dollars


one of my siblings homeschooled, her child is now an adult, and there is now no job she can get and no career she can dream of, she told me in a panic one day, "i have not earned money in i don't even know how many years"-- this a woman with a six figure education, a big deal in the 1980s!!! she threw that away to homeschool and it's truly sad

an adult who cannot earn money is an adult who is moments away or one tragedy/disaster away from a lifetime of misery and exploitation -- she isn't, truly, a full adult because she can't be an equal with her husband, who is the "breadwinner" the one she must beg for money just the same as if she were a mommy in 1952

if that's the example you want to set for your child so be it, let's just hope your child is male so it won't matter that he takes it for granted that a woman's time is worthless and should always be spent catering to the child

if you are a woman, to homeschool is to surrender all your hopes and dreams -- and it is to teach your children that to be a woman is not to be a "real" person but just to be the supporting staff/sidekick -- you are not the main character in your own fucking life!



that is not fair to the child who will now have to make up for everything you gave up

yeah, it's all "choice" and shit, but i'm not in favor of choices that make women slaves, and if you are in favor of such choices, what did you really "school" your child to know? this is way worse than cigarette smoking indoors or whatever your real cause is...

[ProdigalJunkMail]

338. what a pisspoor view of a woman who chooses to stay home

and educate her children. you seem to be one of those people who are only happy with a woman's choice if it was to choose an abortion. other choices, such as staying home and contributing to her family in the way she feels it is most important, make her less than a 'full adult'. how can you possibly shit on a woman's right to choose? oh, that's right, if she isn't out there being a hardnosed business woman she isn't equal to a man...bullshit...

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

339. and one more item of your bullshit

my wife's career was not worth zero dollars...she decided the education and home experience of our children was worth more than the money she could be making.

you have a very sad opinion of women who value their families more than money...

sP

[TNLib]

344. I'm sorry I don't think Homeschool should be allowed.

I had a former co-worker who pulled his child out of school and continued to have many children. His wife was supposedly homeschooling them all. About a year ago the guy was convicted of incest. He fathered a child with his step daughter of 17 needles to say they lived in a remote area and this kid didn't go to public school since she was in first grade.

The mother of this man called my former boss and told him that all the kids were malnourished and illiterate.


This guy made 90K a year and was an it worker. If these kids were in public school I think the abuse may have been detected by a teacher or at the very least they would have been fed and educated.

[Maat]

345. I have to end this thread on a positive note.

The contention that homeschooling is in any way related to greater child abuse is so ludicrous. I was a Child Protective Services worker for nearly a decade, and nothing could be further from the truth. This is obviously a statement from someone who has absolutely no idea how much abuse and neglect goes on without school personnel having the slightest clue. Most states have a requirement that parents register with a school district, and meet regularly with school district personnel. We meet with our teacher montly, and she'd be far more likely to recognize signs of abuse meeting one-on-one regularly than recognize it in a sea of thirty kids all at once. I don't know where people get these crazy ideas.

The bottom line is that, as some of the replies here have demonstrated. there is a whole lot of ignorance out there about homeschooling. One of the greatest myths appears to be that our children socialize less, and this is not true.

Yes, I do have to defend it. I'm sure that the homeschoolers here agree that it is well worth it.

Oh, well, TSS, you tried to at least point out the hypocrisy. You can't label yourself "pro choice," and then state in the next breath that parents should be able to choose the circumstances of their child's education. The state can always require periodic contact to ensure that learning is going on.