OK, so a preplanned & defined assassination plot of a sitting Congresswoman was not "political"

[jpak]

and Gifford's public statement (months ago) of concern for her safety after Sarah Palin targeted her - by name - in "cross-hairs" was unfounded.

And the vandalism of Gifford's office after her vote on the Health Care Bill was not related in any way to Tea Party rhetoric and anger.

Is this what we are to believe?

Shame on you MSM and FAUX.

No fuck you.

yup

[slackmaster]

1. Of course it was political, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was ideological

He may have targeted Giffords simply because she was his representative.

Or maybe something else that isn't really logical...

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message?page=1

[jpak]

2. So, the Tea Party's violent anti-government rhetoric is not "ideological"

And the anti-government sentiments of the shooter were not "ideological" either.

Sorry I don't buy that.

nope

[Recursion]

4. But the shooter wasn't a tea partier

I don't think any of us know why he did it, or even if there's a reason for it that would make sense to the sane.

[HuckleB]

10. Uh, it's quite clear why he did it...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x154515

[Recursion]

12. "The tone of rants" does not persuade me

Especially since I see a lot more distinctions among the different parts of the right than WRP seems to.

[HuckleB]

16. Something tells me that nothing would persuade you.

This is about as clear as it gets.

[cali]

20. that is garbage.

[HuckleB]

22. Great reply.

:rofl:

[jpak]

24. The Tea Party by its own definition is a nebulous leaderless group of anti-government grassroots

"activists" that just happen to share a violent anti-government anti-Democratic Party ideology.

and sorry - I reserve judgment of the shooters "sanity" until it has been established by qualified medical experts that he was not in control of his actions last Saturday.

He was "sane" enough to arm himself in advance, leave a note stating this was an assassination plot and carry out the attack.

I do not believe FAUX News "experts" who have not personally evaluated the shooter face-to-face.

nope

[rapturedbyrobots]

60. He was pretty clearly a member of the

'Patriot' movement. same movement that birthed Tim McVeigh. in terms of electoral politics, most well-aligned bloc for them is the Tea Party.

[slackmaster]

8. Poor analogy.

The shooter is obviously a paranoid schizophrenic. That doesn't rule out an ideological basis for his selection of Rep. Giffords as a target, but so far there hasn't been anything concrete to say that he targeted her because of her party affiliation or positions on specific issues.

[leftynyc]

44. How exactly did you come up

with that very specific diagnosis?

[slackmaster]

63. It's a personal opinion, not a "diagnosis"

I think it's pretty obvious, but I could be wrong. It could all be a big conspiracy or something.

[jpak]

45. "obviously" schizophrenic = FAUX news red herring - and no independent medical evaluation

to back that up.

He could have planned an "insanity" defense all along - just as "obvious" as your statement.

yup

[slackmaster]

62. We have a lot of amateur criminalists here making far-reaching conclusions about the guy's motives

I do have a degree in Psychology.

[EstimatedProphet]

65. OK, but so what if he is?

The thing the media seems to have overlooked, as usual, is that his being schizophrenic is not the same thing as being prone to mass murder. The heated rhetoric isn't designed to get repub loons to attack dems. It's designed to get mentally unstable people less stable, period.

[mzmolly]

6. Could be. But the fact that this kind of rhetoric was directed at his

rep. didn't help matters.

[slackmaster]

15. No, it doesn't help at all. It muddies the water at best.

At worst, the guy really is a mind-numbed robot who decided to shoot someone because Sarah Palin instructed him to.

But I'm not buying that theory until I see actual evidence to support it.

[bigmonkey]

52. So, you think it's an extraordinary claim that this could be a political act?

And so it requires extraordinary evidence.

Doesn't seem so extraordinary to me. Happens far too often in U.S. history.

[HuckleB]

9. It's quite clear that this was ideological...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x154515

[Recursion]

13. In what world is anything about this "quite clear"? (nt)

[HuckleB]

18. In the real world, not the one where MSM works hard to push false equivalency BS and ignore reality.

[Recursion]

27. The equivalency I'm doubting is between all corners of the right

You seem to think that specie currency = tea party = Glenn Beck = Mein Kempf = Sarah Palin = Rand Paul = libertarianism = the GOP, and it's nowhere near that simple. Nor is it clear exactly what Loughner does and doesn't believe, nor whether his political beliefs were his motivation for the attack.

[HuckleB]

32. I actually look at the evidence.

Your decision to play word games via = signs shows a need to ignore the culture in which this occurred, as well as the evidence that this individual bought into that culture. That's an easy out. It doesn't serve any good purpose, however.

[Recursion]

You see what you want to see in the alleged "culture in which this occurred"

I don't think things are nearly as simple as you seem to.

[HuckleB]

38. You seem to be at odds with yourself.

You make it out to be all too simple, while ignoring the complexities of the matter and the evidence. Then you say things aren't as simple I supposedly think they are.

Very odd.

[slackmaster]

19. He believes in a precious-metal standard for currency, ergo he's a Glenn Beck fan?

:crazy:

[HuckleB]

21. And the lack of context goes out the window from the get go.

Nice attempt at diverting the discussion from a plethora of evidence by pretending that you can address one bite of the evidence and therefore dismiss it as a whole.

The world does not work that way.

It's painful to look at reality, but we need to face that reality now.

[slackmaster]

23. I've seen the same evidence you have. I think the guy is a paranoid schizophrenic.

YMMV

[HuckleB]

28. You are his psychiatrist?

Whether or not he has a diagnosis, does not change anything.

[slackmaster]

30. I can see that nothing is going to change your mind

Mine is still open.

[HuckleB]

33. I can see the opposite.

Your mind is closed. The plethora of evidence is against your current stand. If that changes, I will change my mind. You have the plethora of evidence before you, and you still go with imagination.

[slackmaster]

46. I think the Mother Jones piece that surfaced yesterday offers the most plausible explanation

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message?page=1

[HuckleB]

48. You already posted that, and it offers very little.

By going with that very thin piece, you choose to ignore the vast majority of the evidence available.

[mzmolly]

53. One can't reason with madnes. But we can be aware that it exists.

And, we can resist feeding it, under the circumstances.

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2011/1/11/935395/-Mental-illness-expert:-Yes,-ask-whether-political-climate-was-a-trigger-for-shooter

[woo me with science]

55. Actually, the FBI, who are the only ones who have had access to the actual evidence,

came out today and said that they have seen nothing so far that indicates a left or right affiliation.

[HuckleB]

57. So the stuff this guy posted online is fiction?

Interesting. The FBI is not going to be accused of playing politics by the screaming goons, so their statement is meaningless.

[woo me with science]

59. LOL.

Obviously you are more informed and objective than the FBI. O8)

[H2O Man]

64. You are correct.

Pretending it is not is simply pretending. Nothing more.

[One_Life_To_Give]

3. Apples and Oranges

Vandalism after HC vote was most likely political.
Palin's use of Cross-Hairs is Poor Taste but doesn't rise to Legal definitions of Threatening.
And this guy may have just not liked her or the way she had spoken to him in the past? Just because she's a congress person doesn't mean that everything around her is solely about that.

[HuckleB]

11. Please read more about the killer...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x154515

[One_Life_To_Give]

36. And he met her years before

Might be political or it might be he was still pissed about the way she talked to him years before. There is not enough evidence to conclude what pushed this nut to do this.

[HuckleB]

43. Nothing is absolute.

However, the plethora of evidence is quite clear, unless someone chooses to ignore a great deal.

[bettyellen]

61. he specifically went to see her to engage in a political discussion

but yeah, why would anyone think that's political at all? LOL

[EFerrari]

14. What Palin does doesn't have to be illegal to be wrong.

Look, if you're unstable and every time you turn on the radio or the television, you're told to take out liberals, you don't have to know what a liberal is to take up the suggestion. It's pretty simple.

[One_Life_To_Give]

26. Didn't say it wasn't wrong

She catches headlines by using words intended to be provocative. However proving that she had intent for those words to make/entice some person to commit such an action? That is not going to get thru a Jury IMO. And gives her alot of credit for intelligence that I don't think she deserves.

[EFerrari]

42. But a jury isn't a very high standard -- that's my point.

Most of us go our entire lives without having a jury tell us right and wrong.

As a leader, she should know better than to deliberately inflame unstable people like she did at her rallies. Remember, she got people so worked up, they were shouting "kill him" about Obama. She knew then what she was doing if she didn't know before that happened.

[jpak]

31. Giffords felt threatened by Palin and stated this on TV in a live interview last spring

end of argument

yup

[bemildred]

5. Look, they are just throwing shit at the wall right now, hoping some will stick.

You will have no luck at all trying to make sense out of it.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. Even FoxNews said that the preplanned plot will deny this guy the

insanity defense.

[cali]

17. it appears not to be tied in to the politics of much besides that of a pychotic

young man.

The vandalism is another story.

[HuckleB]

25. That's the easy out that the MSM is pushing.

Unfortunately, such things don't usually happen in a vacuum.

[cali]

34. no, it's 10 years of working with people with severe and persistent mental illnesses talking

[HuckleB]

41. Well, I double your ten years.

You're ignoring huge parts of this story to push an easy answer. That easy answer doesn't work.

[jpak]

40. That is what FAUX was peddling last Saturday PM before any background info was available

and no independent judicially appointed medical expert has made any statement about his mental state.

Until then, color me skeptical.

yup

[uppityperson]

29. of course it was political. Doesn't matter if Loughner had mental health issues, was still political

[HuckleB]

35. +1

[Rex]

37. They are trying to do damage control for their OWN people!

And the people trying to defend them...pathetic and worthless. Why anyone would defend charlatans that call for murder of their political opponents, is beyond my understanding. You are 100% correct, the CYA act is being covered up by the very people that support these monsters on TVEE.

[Supersedeas]

58. the Media and their Astroturfing backers created the starpower of vitriolic shockjocks

no way they turn their backs on them now.

[cbc5g]

39. A mentally disturbed individual who craved attention killed a government official

Yet you believe it was a political hit.

Wow

Just


WOW

Talk about trying to take advantage of a situation

[bemildred]

47. Oh good.

:popcorn:

[jpak]

49. He stated in his goodbye note that this was a assassination of Congresswoman Giffords

assassinations are political

try again

[bemildred]

50. Yeah, but he's "crazy", so he didn't really know what he was doing.

It was actually a random act, underneath, in secret, where you can speculate your ass off in a butt-covering frenzy.
:sarcasm:

[jpak]

51. Yes, he randomly purchased a Glock and over-sized magazines and

randomly loaded them

and randomly penned a statement that this was an assassination plot

and randomly just happened to be at that Safeway with that Glock and several randomly loaded clips

and just by random chance shot and killed 6 people and wounded 13 more

including a Democratic Congresswoman he just randomly did not "like".

random!!111

see how easy?

[kevinbgoode]

54. A disturbed individual with decidedly clear perceptions of

seeing his government as a tyranny. . .and yes, THAT is political.

In fact, rather the same political reasoning used by the Tea Party in their rhetoric surrounding the right to use second amendment remedies.

So are the Sharron Angles out there NOT mentally disturbed simply because they didn't pull the trigger on some political opponent? Is that the line we draw here?

[Mojeoux]

56. 20 recs now. Let's keep this UP! nt