I Fucking Love DU. This isn't the first time I've said that. I feel bad though when DU goes binary

[cherokeeprogressive]

and by that I mean when the mindset here seems to change in a moments notice to "you're either with us, or against us".

This is such a time. Saturday we turned into a message board with a binary view of events. Mind you; this is only my observance, and should be taken for what it's worth. I really don't care who I piss off by what I'm about to say, and I don't think anyone who's read my posts for the last five years would disagree with my claim that I've never felt that my opinions should be seen as the truth and nothing but the truth.

For the last two days the argument between DU'ers has been clearly divided between two factions. There are those here who believe in their hearts that the actions of this FREAK were guided by Palin, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, and other lesser right wing voices. On the "other side" are those who are not convinced that this FREAK's actions have any basis in reality whatsoever and who call for the kind of prudence our Justice System is based upon. The current mindset at DU seems to be we should push the meme that this FREAK was a Right Wing tool, no matter what we know to be true, and at this point, we know precious little about what is "true" and what isn't. Push the Meme is what I'm seeing here for the last two days. That pains me.

I have to say that I fall into the group who asks that we step back, digest ALL the facts, and know what we say BEFORE we point fingers, and as a longtime poster and contributor here I'm disappointed that for holding that view I might be called out as being a possible troll. That doesn't bother me as it wouldn't be the first, tenth, fiftieth, or even the hundredth time that's happened. I've seen good DU'ers in the last two days called out as being something less than good DU'ers for stating no other opinion than we as DU'ers should be prudent in what claims we make about the FREAK who pulled the trigger Saturday.

Saturday a poster here stated in no uncertain terms early on that the "lone gunman" information put out on the wires was NOT TO BE BELIEVED. Saturday, even though information was scarce, posters made the claim that the Judge might have been the target. Before any information was known to be certain, DU went BINARY.

I worries me that in this place I've donated so much money to, this place I love so much, this place that has supported me in times of flux in my life; DU'ers can be called out as trolls for simply suggesting that the FREAK who pulled the trigger might not have done so due to any Right Wing influence.

I've read his bullshit. I've seen interviews with those who supposedly knew something about him. I'm going to go out on a limb and say here that I've seen nothing at all that could tie him to any political ideology whatsoever. None. Nada. Yeah, "the gold standard" works for some. Yeah, "grammar" works for some, though I can't find any mention of where control of grammar can be seen as a Right Wing argument against anything at all. All I know about him even after reading the disconnected from reality screeds of his is that he's out there beyond Pluto in his thinking.

What he did pains me to the very core of my soul. If I had the opportunity, I'd kill him with my bare hands for what he did, and I have no doubt that I could. Give me ten minutes in a closed room with him. I guarantee it would be ME who walked out of the room. I'm as confident in that as I am that no dog could ever kill me. I'd do it not only for the individuals he victimized, but also for the family members he stole from, and for what he's done to my country and political discourse. I don't care what his motivations were, I'd kill him with my bare hands were I given a few minutes alone with him. I'd just fucking kill him for what he DID.

I wouldn't do it until after he was judged by a jury of his peers to be guilty though.

On the other hand, since he'll be lucky enough that I'll never get within reach of him; let's find out what motivated him and go from there. For all we know, he's never listened to hate radio (no one here can PROVE that he has), never watched hate TV (again, no one can PROVE that he has), and knows nothing of current events. I haven't found a quote or a reference to a statement made by those right wingers we hate in anything he's written or posted and I've read it all.

I hate what he did and I'd kill him for it with my own hands. But at this point I'm not ready though to pin the blame on anyone but him.

[Catherina]

1. Other than killing him with my bare hands, highly Rec'd

I couldn't bear to be close to him.

Rec'd in agreement. Thank you.

[Lucinda]

2. I'm not in favor of killing crazy people - and I believe he is

but I agree with the rest of what you said.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Thank you, my dear cherokeeprogressive...

As usual, your incisive words make so much sense to me.

I applaud them, and you!

Highly recommended.

:hug:

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. I'm so mad Peg...

I have more to say, but I get in trouble most times after I've had a cocktail or four.

I just want us as a whole to get past this.

Love ya Doll.

[Rex]

4. I see a tiny group 'go binary' as you call it and the other thousands

of posters mostly going on with business as usual. I fucking love DU too and can't stand it when people make a mountain out of a molehill or sometimes when they try to make a molehill out of a mountain. Like you, why fucking care what people think of your opinion. This place rocks, bottom line.

[snagglepuss]

5. IMHO you seem be suffering from the same tendency. Why call him a

freak? It seems to me he is psychotic. I think the perjorative FREAK should be used to describe sane people who act insane like tea baggers, coulter, malikin, palin etc etc. We are back in the middle ages if we can't understand severe mental illness. Your assuming he is sane without any evidence and stating that he did what he did becasue he is a FREAK is not any different than people jumping to the conclusion that he had politcal motivations.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. You're right.

[EFerrari]

6. Well, then prepare for more.

This kid is unstable. Killing him won't change anything.

Getting the RW poison out of our culture could change something.

And mark my words, if we don't get that to stop, there will be more funerals.

[wtmusic]

12. Killing him would change a lot, actually.

It would give a lot of people the satisfaction of knowing justice was served.

IMO the death penalty should only be used in very well-defined circumstances for the most heinous crimes, and this is one of them.

This monster deserves to die.

[EFerrari]

36. If the exact same conditions (that Giffords spoke out against) remain

justice hasn't been served.

[Smarmie Doofus]

21. +1 n/t

[Kaleva]

8. I put the blame entirely on him and no one else.

What punishment he ought to get depends on his mental condition. I also think this nation can do more concerning providing better mental health care and revising our gun laws so it'd at least be harder for people like him to purchase guns and ammo. This guy had a history going back several years and yet he breazed thru a background check.

[Rainbow Wave]

9. I'm sick of all this pop psychologizing

With us or against us? Please! This happened in Arizona, the state that purposefully wanted to make itself known as the anti-Hispanic capital of the US. Where were you when that with us or against us battle was going on? Did you couch the discussion in those terms then? Or is it only now that the white/right is on the stand that this has become an issue?

A binary view of events? That didn't happen with Arizona's myopic anti-immigrant stance? That didn't happen with Arizona's myopic anti-ethnic studies stance? That only happened when a white right-wing guy gunned downed people and suddenly white people had to decide whether they were with or against him? Oh, no! Heaven forbid! He must be crazy! That's the only thing that can permanently unhinge him from us!

Contrary to your assertions, a lot of us don't think these actions were directly related to Palin, Beck, et al, but rather to a climate that allowed very unsavory rhetoric to be taken as mainstream, acceptable, and worthy of credence. And the notion that we have to choose between "This guy was crazy" or "He was influenced by right-wing hate talk" is entirely ludicrous. Believe it or not, both options are entirely plausible. Was he crazy? Absolutely. But so are the people who say the only good liberal is a dead liberal. So are the people who insist Obama was born in Kenya. Believe it or not, you can be simultaneously crazy and a believer in insane tea party talking points. Since when was it either or?

I don't even understand what you people are hoping to gain from this. By insisting that the guy was just nuts you're only giving him points for his defense. You're essentially saying he wasn't responsible for his actions. You're so eager to let the right wing off the hook that you don't realize you're letting the actual killer off the hook.

The fact of the matter is the US is a very violent country. We have very violent gun incidents almost yearly - sometimes more often. I know we like to believe we're a civilized country and all that. We're not. We're a violent, bloody, uncivilized country by any decent standards. And, yes, our politics have a lot to do with that.

A lone gunman? How many lone gunmen do we have to have before we realize we are bloodthirsty, violent, and uncivilized? Whether it be post offices, universities, schools, shopping centers, museums, whatever, we have had too many lone gunmen for them to really be loners. We have to admit we have a problem. We are a violent nation. We foment and encourage violence. Other countries do not have the problems we have with violence unless they are, in fact, in a situation of war. You can't really call them loners when they have so much company.

The freak who did this very definitely did so under right wing influence. In fact, we are all subject to right wing influence to the extent we believe the level of violence we are subjected to is normal.

Unlike you, I would not kill someone simply because he did what his society told him was right and simply because he does not adhere to my personal codes of conduct. I do, however, hold our society much more responsible than you do. Loughner did this one particular thing, yes, but our society gave him the road map.

[Skittles]

13. um...........Rainbow?

DU thoroughly DETESTED the demonization of Hispanic folk in Arizona - across the board

[Rainbow Wave]

15. I wasn't talking about DU.

I was simply responding to this one poster.

[Skittles]

17. sorry;

I guess I misunderstood what you meant by "you people"

[Rainbow Wave]

16. In fact

I am quite fond of DU over all. I think it serves, as an aggregate of progressive forces, a very vital and necessary purpose.

[pintobean]

10. What CaliforniaPeggy said and I'd add

A lot of the crap is going to come back and bite us on the ass. Hard.

[thaddeus_flowe]

14. he is to blame, but

"I'm as confident in that as I am that no dog could ever kill me."
a tad hyperbolic?
but months ago, when SP first posted the map with crosshairs, I remember thinking "how long until someone gets murdered for that?"
well, it is only the second week of january and six people have been murdered.

[pintobean]

18. And we don't yet have any facts to connect the two.

[emilyg]

19. Huge k/r

[Tsiyu]

20. binary?

i've seen more than two opinions here, not to piss on your binary meme, there

But this kind of rhetoric:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x155821


"It's ok. Christina Taylor Green was probably going to end up a left wing bleeding heart liberal anyway. Hey, as 'they' say, what would you do if you had the chance to kill Hitler as a kid? Exactly."

Tina King


was inspired by this man's killing of a nine-year-old baby.

This warped woman's acceptance of the deaths of the children and grandchildren of liberals has EVERYTHING to do with the climate of hate that is spread and encouraged by the right wing.

Gabrielle Giffords was a target. It is certainly not imprudent or knee-jerk to assume that the current climate of Second amendment remedies, "Ballots or bullets," and her political opponents putting crosshairs over her face have a whole lot to do with encouraging less stable people to assassinate.

Look at what Bloody Beck has inspired...if you can sit back and say "oh well, la dee da, no connection here" fine by me.

I can't, and I won't



Enough is enough.

[woo me with science]

22. Recommended x100000000

Thank you for articulating this so well.

Can't recommend highly enough.

[eridani]

23. Hey, lone crazy people have a tendency to do bad things because the voices

--tell them to. Palin, Beck, et al. are the voices. It's the whole right wing sensory surround that is to blame, not one individual winter.

[woo me with science]

24. Kick. nt

[olegramps]

25. What you have to say is basically correct.

However, I believe what many progressives correctly object to is the stroking of hatred by the today's Republicans whose leaders who refuse to denounce the hate talk. In fact, they have encouraged it. We have many mentally unbalanced people in this country who can be encouraged to commit violent crimes by unprincipled politicians who refuse to defuse the situation. I have not heard any concerted effort by Republicans to condemn those who have clearly crossed the line.

I will take the liberty of quoting a recent post:

"I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus - living fossils - so we will never forget what these people stood for."

- Rush Limbaugh, Denver Post, 12-29-95

"Get rid of the guy. Impeach him, censure him, assassinate him."

- Rep. James Hansen (R-UT), talking about President Clinton

"We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

- Senator Phil Gramm (R-TX), Mother Jones, 08-95

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

- Ann Coulter, New York Observer, 08-26-02

"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

- Ann Coulter, at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02-26-02

"Chelsea is a Clinton. She bears the taint; and though not prosecutable in law, in custom and nature the taint cannot be ignored. All the great despotisms of the past - I'm not arguing for despotism as a principle, but they sure knew how to deal with potential trouble - recognized that the families of objectionable citizens were a continuing threat. In Stalin's penal code it was a crime to be the wife or child of an 'enemy of the people.' The Nazis used the same principle, which they called Sippenhaft, 'clan liability.' In Imperial China, enemies of the state were punished 'to the ninth degree': that is, everyone in the offender's own generation would be killed and everyone related via four generations up, to the great-great-grandparents, and four generations down, to the great-great-grandchildren, would also be killed."

- John Derbyshire, National Review, 02-15-01

"Two things made this country great: White men & Christianity. The degree these two have diminished is in direct proportion to the corruption and fall of the nation. Every problem that has arisen (sic) can be directly traced back to our departure from God's Law and the disenfranchisement of White men."

- State Rep. Don Davis (R-NC), emailed to every member of the North Carolina House and Senate, reported by the Fayetteville Observer, 08-22-01

[Stinky The Clown]

26. I think you're wrong

I think a lot of people have a middle ground, to wit:

The shooter is a kook. His kookitude was influenced by the right wing hate chatter. It didn't directly cause him act, but his actions used what they heard to target and focus his kookitide.

I am of this view.

Kookitude is a made-up word.

[KansasVoter]

27. So Palin did nothing wrong? Wow!

[cherokeeprogressive]

28. I don't remember saying that. Can you show me where I said that? n/t

[sufrommich]

29. Very good sentiments and I agree. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. I don't think it is all that binary.

Whether this shooter was motivated in this instance by a specific image that Sarah Palin posted on her website misses the point.

The Republican party has consciously decided to appeal to, market themselves toward and embrace irresponsibility.

Seriously, any issue of any importance today, the Republican party has a perceived obligation to support the least prudent, least responsible choice. It begs the question about what is meant by "conservative".

Nuke the whales! Fuck fuel economy! Healthcare? Socialism sucks because others might have it as good as me! Kill someone!

"The blame" isn't a single push pin. You don't have to remove it from the shooter to pin it on the culture in which we're immersed. There are plenty to go around.

[Raschel]

31. I agree. I'm going with the victim's words that actions have consequences. This is

the time to address the over the top violent symbols, rhetoric and hate.

Rep Giffords said herself last year that she and her colleagues haven't seen it this bad before.

[Goblinmonger]

33. She probably also said that she didn't really like a meal she had

in the recent past. Doesn't mean that meal killed her. Doesn't mean Palin caused this guy to kill her, either. Just a brutal coincidence in my opinion.

[okieinpain]

32. excellent post. n/t.

[Goblinmonger]

34. I'm right with you.

Hasn't made me popular, but guess I don't care.

The only exception I would take is to the "freak" wording. This guy has some serious mental problems. If we had a system that would recognize and help people with these problems, this may never have happened.

[Edweird]

35. Yep. He's alive and in custody. There's plenty of time to get all the facts.

He's not going anywhere.

[woo me with science]

37. Kick. nt