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I was in the UK in 2006 and 2007 after not having been there since 1967

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:03 AM
Original message
I was in the UK in 2006 and 2007 after not having been there since 1967
and the change that struck me most was the development of a huge gap between the rich and poor.

When we were there in the 1960s, the UK was a relatively poor country, still recovering from World War II and the loss of its empire, but the impression was that most people were getting by on the same working class level, except for the hereditary aristocracy, who were a small minority.

London was a shabby-looking but exceptionally safe city. We stayed in a B&B in one of the areas currently beset by riots. On one occasion, we missed the most convenient train back from one of our day trips and phoned our landlady to say that we'd have to take a circuitous route back to London and wouldn't be in till nearly midnight. "Oh, that's quite all right," she said. "I never lock up." This same landlady provided very basic rooms and a massive breakfast for 14 shillings ($1.96 at the prevailing rate of exchange, exceptionally cheap by American standards even then) a night.

As a British expat of my acquaintance has remarked, "I grew up in a low-wage, low-price society."

Coming back in 2006 and 2007, I couldn't help noticing how much the affluent and middle class parts of cities had been spruced up, both inside and outside the buildings. Prices were extremely high, especially given the exchange rate that prevailed at the time. And yet, riding the trains between cities, I couldn't help noticing the horrible public housing developments, the "council estates," isolated, rundown, and filthy with trash and grafitti. These had not existed (at least they had not been noticeable) in the 1960s.

I also saw that almost all the service jobs in hotels and restaurants were filled by people with Eastern European accents, and that rural communities had notices about English classes for Eastern European farm workers. Even then, I thought about the council estates and wondered how an ambitious young person from such an environment could find a leg up in the British economy if such traditional entrees into the workforce were being taken by foreigners.

Thinking about the riots, which of course are stupid and counterproductive, I have come to the conclusion that the rioters are Thatcher's children. Margaret Thatcher once said, "There is no such thing as society. There are only individuals and their families." She also destroyed the unions and presided over the dismantling of Britain's industrial base. Many people prospered under the Tory government, especially the bankster and speculator types, but just as many people fell out of mainstream society.

So put yourself in the place of a young person from a council estate. Nobody you know has a well-paying job, and most have no job at all. Criminal gangs control your neighborhood. You see the affluent on TV, and they have all this attractive Stuff, and you have no idea how they got it, only that they have it and you don't, and that they openly despise you and call you a "chav." Pop culture portrayals of working class people reinforce the stereotypes. There is no one you respect. The attitude of "there is no such thing as society, only individuals and their families," has trickled down to you.

Civil unrest breaks out. People are smashing store windows. You see your chance to get some of the Stuff that you've seen on TV. Why not? There are only individuals and their families, no such thing as society.

I'm not justifying the rioters. Only explaining what I think their mindset is. You cannot spend thirty years denying the concept of social responsibility and then act surprised when both banksters and council estate dwellers carry on like outlaws.



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Rosa Luxemburg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. I lived near Toxteth
it hasn't really changed too much. There are some new flats ad it seemed more cleaned up but the poverty is still there. the 'city of culture funding' did some things for Liverpool but not enough.
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:12 AM
Response to Original message
2. Excellent, excellent post, as always.
I am so glad that you are part of this community.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
3. What's really changed is, "A working class hero is something to be" is heard no more.
The media has been Murdoched. The Left has been lynched. This is what happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njG7p6CSbCU
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raccoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. I wonder if someone who hadn't been to the US for that amount of time would notice

the same differences in this country. My guess is they would.

Recd.


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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
5. Thank you posting, brilliant last sentence...
I'm not justifying the rioters. Only explaining what I think their mindset is. You cannot spend thirty years denying the concept of social responsibility and then act surprised when both banksters and council estate dwellers carry on like outlaws.
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. The Thatcher quote is right to the point. Very interesting post. (nt)
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. K&R
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
8. Wow. Right on, Lydia. nt
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NYC_SKP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
9. The chasm between rich and the rest of us is widening, indeed.
Edited on Tue Aug-09-11 10:46 AM by NYC_SKP
I'm not sure, however, that your comparative experience is a result exclusively of this fact.

Gentrification could just as easily explain this, I think.

Were I to return to my last neighborhood in NYC today, East Houston at Avenue B, I think it would seem much the same as your comparison; expensive and exclusive, as opposed to cheap and sketchy (but with great people). I loved my neighbors.

Great post.

K/R
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. Well stated. nt
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Mark Baker Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. The council housing was almost all there in the 60s
Indeed, a major part of the problem is that not enough has been built since to keep up with the rising population.

If you'd gone the same places you did last time when you were here in the 60s, you'd have seen all the same council estates. The buildings aren't new, the squalor is. Part of that is the council's fault, though it's hard to stop a concrete tower block looking shabby when it gets old. Mostly it's because the residents stopped caring about it. Why, I don't know. But I don't think you can blame social problems on the poor housing, the relationship is the other way round.

Most of the council housing outside the major cities is in the form of houses, and these estates are mostly still pleasant today. A 1950s council house, although obviously built on the cheap, is in many ways much nicer than a private sector "starter home" today: bigger rooms, bigger gardens, and green public space around. One of Maggie's policies was to allow council tenants to buy their houses at a very good price. This was good for the tenants themselves who got a bargain, and good for the social mix on the estates. On the other hand, councils were forbidden from spending the proceeds on buying more social housing, and the "right to buy" is a major reason why there's such a shortage of council housing today.

The higher density housing schemes, particularly tower blocks, are much less pleasant. Part of the problem is that they're just too big. It's difficult to see what else could have been done with such a huge number of people needing places to live, and a lower density would have required more space and probably resulted in them being even more isolated. (Portsmouth built a huge estate well outside the city limits!)

None of the above should be taken as disagreeing with any importatnt part of your excellent post, BTW.

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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:24 PM
Response to Original message
12. "Thatcher's children"
Indeed.

Thank you for your thoughtful post.

K&R
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
13. Careful, getting it will soon lead to being accused
of actually encouraging riots.
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Desertrose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Sure seems that way here, doesn't it?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Some people think that understanding a person's motives is the same as condoning
what they do.

For example, I don't like China's one-child policy. It leads to sex selection abortion, female infanticide, a terribly skewed sex ratio, and the rapid graying of China's society--eventually, they'll "gray" even faster than Japan. However, having been to China, I can understand WHY the country's rulers might have thought it was a good idea to limit families to one child.
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14thColony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 04:59 PM
Response to Original message
16. I've lived here for nine years so far
And am typing this from London, within sound of the sirens. Based on my experiences, in my opinion you've hit the nail right on the head.
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