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The Double Dip. Income disparity is so severe that its actually putting a brake on demand

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 01:49 PM
Original message
The Double Dip. Income disparity is so severe that its actually putting a brake on demand
Republished from Daily Kos, INCOME INEQUALITY KOS

At the height of the Clinton dot com boom America experienced actual real wage growth for consecutive years for the first time since 1968, median individual income peaked at below $39,000 per year. in the current recession median individual income is slightly above $26,000 a year. Yup, more than a 12k drop, about 30%.

And just to make sure you are thoroughly distressed, todays recession median individual income of 26k, has not kept up with inflation for over 40 yrs. Follow this link and look for 1970

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_States

Did you find the chart that says $28,000 yet?

Maybe you're feeling a wee bit steamed. Do you have a feeling of impending doom? Is your heart rate up a bit? Are you pissed off yet?

Warning, if you dip below the squiggle, you may become very fooking pissed off.




Working and middle classes have been taxed out of the economy, income disparity (worst since 1928) is so severe that consumer demand is incapable of stimulating the economy. At this point in time income disparity is a brake on economic growth. GDP growth has been on the decline for 18 months, the last 6 quarters.

"

Look at 2010 and the first 2 quarters of 2011, and witness the front half of the classic double dip recession.

Yes, that sucks, its a bad sign, and politically there is no solution on the horizon.

I believe its vital to illuminate the scale of the problem.

By 1936 things were looking good, America was in recovery, GNP growth in 1934 was 11%, 1935-9%, 1936-13.9%. GNP in 1929 compared to 1936, 96 billion to 103 billion.

In 1937 FDR cut CCC & WPA spending by 60%, Fed policy was tightened, pop, a recession. 3 and a half years of stimulus spending was not enough. FDR quickly repealed the spending cuts and ordered 200 new surface ships for the US Navy. AIrcraft development programs for fighter aircraft were expanded, this is the era where the P-51, the P-38, the Hellcat, and the Corsair were designed, tested and flown. Design specifications for the Sherman tank were written up. It took an additional 3 yrs for labor shortages to start, at Grumman aircraft in Long Island NY, in October of 1941 skilled labor was impossible to find, Grumman instituted a training program, and went on to set a record for a single aircraft plant in fighter production during the war, that was the Hellcat, the fighter that could go toe to toe with Japanese Zero. The Hellcat went on to a 15 to 1 shootdown ratio in the Pacific theater.

I digress, it took 6 yrs of stimulus spending to get us out of the Depression.

How's your heartburn?

How long will it take, under the best of conditions, to get to recovery? How many years of stimulus spending do we need now? 2? 3? 4?. Remember a dollar spent in 1936, stayed in America. Today, thats not true, many of our our stimulus dollars would end up stimulating the world economy. 5 Yrs? Maybe 6 Yrs?

Historically we are in a period of few loopholes for top income earners. I would raise taxes on the rich to 70%, add at least 5 more brackets and offer them tax breaks to invest in factories to build solar panels and wind turbines and other areas of emerging tech and markets , reducing the top bracket to an effective rate of 35%.

Its called industrial policy and we used to great effect from the Depression thru the '70's.

Talking about letting the Bush tax cuts expire is not going to engage the working and middle classes in the economy, Clinton Era tax rates (39.6%) will be too little, too late. Shifting tax burden off these families is essential. Moving significant volumes of capital to where its needed is essential. We know what works, our ideas are better and



When push comes to shove, Americans aren't that stupid, and often can make good choices.

After raising taxes, loopholes in income and corporate taxes, will move significant amounts of capital away from commodities, options, futures, derivatives and into emerging markets we need looking forward to 2050. Good smart behavior needs to be rewarded. The Uber Wealthy have a choice, commodities speculation and returns of 15-20-25%, or building a factory that makes solar panels and creates jobs in the US and returns 5-10%. If we dont change that choice, that money wont move very fast, or with any significant volume to the smart choices that are so important.

Capital is not flowing to emerging markets and technology at a time when we need to replace all of our electrical generating and grid infrastructure. By the end of the decade most of our nuclear fission power plants will be 40 to 50 yrs old.

And even if I was made King of the US tomorrow, it would take me 5 years to dig us out of the hole we're in.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. Sorry for kicked my own post, but WTH :-)
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You should repost in the Economy Forum
it'd hang around longer than it would in GD.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Hmmm, thanks, might do that.
My stuff is usually good enough for Gen Dis consumption that it wont drop like a stone, but today thats just what happened.
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. K&R
and really good work!
peace, kpete
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Kpete, thank you. that chart is the start of the double dip.
Pwned
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
5. dig out of a hole
i never got that analogy, because don't you want a rope or ladder to get out?

anyways, I'm at work and can;t view the charts, but i am sure it's worse that I think.
personally i have never been above the poverty level, so i guess i don;t count on those scales anyway.

but seriously, when your money is spent on survival, there's none left for extras, who doesn't get that?

uh ya, the bastards who have nothing BUT disposable income don;t get it... and they never will.

there is no way to stimulate this mess...it's been on life support for some time now.
just do what I do, learn to live with a LOT less, and find creative alternatives to things like toilet paper and milk
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Gee, Um, you are correct.......
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. "but seriously, when your money is spent on survival, there's none left for extras, who doesn't
get that?"

-- Pretty much everyone inside the Beltway.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thats the crux of why traditional consumer demand is gone.
UR exactly right.
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
40. Much of consumer demand was fueled...
...by credit-card spending, and spending using retail credit-cards as well
as people dipping into their home equity.

People just aren't spending that way. Before 2008, we were practically shoved
into the stores with credit cards that corporations slapped in our hands. We
were told it was our public duty to "go shopping" and everyone was doing it.

I live in the suburbs, and even I see the major changes. Shopping was a weekend
sport, and now I see the parking lots of malls, clothing stores, Target, etc. are
not as busy.

I've also noticed the return of high-value coupons that I haven't seen since 2008.
Pier 1 recently issued a $10 off any $10 purchase coupon on their website. They
did this once before, during the 2008 crisis. Parking lots at Pier 1 are pretty
empty now--similar to 2008.

Things are a lot worse now, than they're letting on. But we have eyes. We can see it.

In short, the previous posters are right. People don't have the money and are spending
what they have to survive, and nothing is left after those purchases. And also, people
are scared, trying to save and they're not charging on credit cards (or dipping into
home equity) as before. Prior to 2008, our nation was on a spending spree. Now, the
contraction of ALL of this behavior is happening.
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russspeakeasy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
50. Maybe you didn't hear....We are " pivoting " to jobs, jobs, jobs..
Happy days are here again...............and all that shit.:banghead:
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Liberal_in_LA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 06:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. kick!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
11. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 06:28 PM
Response to Original message
12. Inflation is destroying the purchasing power of the lower incomes as we speak.
They will be the first to fall, then followed by middle wage earners with families.

This is how the elites are destroying America.
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steve2470 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
13. k&r nt
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Thank you.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 06:47 PM
Response to Original message
14. Reader's Digest Condensed Version: People can't spend what they do not have.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #14
22. Yup.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
15. Maybe that kitty can help us dig out.
But she looks pretty slow to me. lol

Great post by the way. I wish more people and politicians understood it.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
16. Did you see the thread about WalMart's bottom line is now being affected since shoppers don't have $
Not that I care about WalMart specifically but they are a harbinger of your OP.

That graph is deeply troubling. Thanks for posting.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
17. There you go! k*r
Thanks for this well documented piece. The nature of recessions is an absence of growth. So what do the geniuses
do? They attack growth rather than promote. That fundamental mistake is what will drive us down. It is simply
unforgivable. It's not like this rocket science. It's well known.

Fine work!
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. U R welcome sir.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. I was at a group meeting with Corker's staff today
and I mentioned a part of this. The more income in the average person's hand the more it spurs demand, which is what this economy NEEDS.Because the proletariat and poor SPENDS their money on surviving. The rich don't.
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justabob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. exactly
If you give a rich person 1000 dollars they will just bank it. If you gave me 1000 dollars I could spend it in about 5 minutes without even thinking about it much and without buying a single "frivolous" thing. Why is this such a mystery to all the experts?
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #18
42. What was their response? I am assuming they didn't agree with you.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. Actually since it was a staffer, she didn't agree or disagree
with anything. She just took notes and said she would pass it on to Corker. Well there was one thing she disagreed with me on. When I said that the Republicans seemed to want the economy to tank in order to win back the presidency, she disagreed with that.
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indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:17 AM
Response to Original message
23. where does that median individual income of $39K under clinton that drops to
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 01:17 AM by indurancevile
$26 k come from?

I think those figures are wrong.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:34 AM
Original message
from my own experience, i'd say those figures are correct
everyone i know has either lost a job, a home or a 401k. if you recall, bush's selection depressed the economy, as did his tax cuts, and we have not and will not recover until the government fixes the tax code.
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indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
27. your personal experience is not relevant. when i look at historical income tables i don't see this.
thus i ask for a link.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. you have a link with the statistic, but it requires you to do some work to find the numbers
and...only a fool doesn't believe what he sees. unless of course you live in a bubble, or you are blind.
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indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 03:55 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. i did the work. i don't see any such numbers. thus, i ask for a link.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 04:06 AM by indurancevile
which no one making the claim has yet provided me. including you.

there are no such numbers at the link in the op. the numbers for median individual income (2004 dollars) at that link are:

1970: $28K
1980: $27K
1990: $28K
2000: $31K
2004: $30K

That's for men. Women's median is lower, thus the overall median is lower. There is no "$39K". Individual median income has NEVER BEEN as high as $39K in either nominal or inflation-adjusted 2011 dollars. Income has been essentially flat since its peak in the early 70s. That's a different matter than saying it's declined $12K or 30% since the Clinton admin. It hasn't.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. YOu are correct, I used a poor citation, this one
might be more helpful, even though it does not strictly make my point:

http://www.stanford.edu/class/polisci120a/immigration/Median%20Household%20Income.pdf
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Yo_Mama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #36
56. Well, no, because you are mixing individual and household income
Individual incomes were never high like you posted.

Here's some actual data from St. Louis Fed Fred:
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/A229RC0?cid=110

That is disposable personal income per capita (after taxes), and you will note that it rose until the recession. This is the same thing but in chained dollars, i.e. adjusted for inflation:
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/A229RX0?cid=110

If you want household income by quintile, Census has the best info. On this page you can download a spreadsheet that has all the historical:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/index.html

It's the top "all races" one.

To get the inflation adjusted data, scroll down the spreadsheet until you see a break with the words "2009 dollars".

And the truth isn't what you think it is. Since 1999, income for all quintiles (including the lower 5th of the top quintile) dropped. That's because we had a huge bubble, and when it popped it caused the 2001 recession. Seriously, since the mid 1990s the Fed has been trying to push the economy along. The results get worse every couple of years.

The Census data is not adjusted for taxes. The earlier data is. And the fact is that tax-adjusted incomes did better than shown, especially for the mid-levels.

There is another factor in the Census data and indeed in all this data. Demographics affect these figures. In the US, workers generally peak incomes in the low to mid 50s and gradually decline after that, so we kind of expected those figures to tail down a decade ago.

A really good source for income and tax data is at SOI - the individual income tax stats:
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/indtaxstats/article/0,,id=133414,00.html
Tremendous detail, a lot of work to compile the data.

Last, but not least, you can use BLS average hourly and weekly earnings for private employees:
http://www.bls.gov/webapps/legacy/cesbtab8.htm



These are not inflation adjusted. I don't know whether you will be able to see that graph or not. It is the 12 month change time series.



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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:34 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. from my own experience, i'd say those figures are correct
everyone i know has either lost a job, a home or a 401k. if you recall, bush's selection depressed the economy, as did his tax cuts, and we have not and will not recover until the government fixes the tax code.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
33. GINI index, Census bureau via wiki. For those of us that pay attention these
are well known numbers. People like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich, Congressional Progressive Caucus members refer to these stats often. As well as Thom Hartman on the radio.

No offense, but if you were paying attention over 30 yrs, you would already be familiar. Note, Family median income is much higher than Med. Ind.
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indurancevile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. so well known for those superior beings "paying attention," yet still no link.
Edited on Wed Aug-03-11 12:54 PM by indurancevile
individual median income has never been as high as $39K. you mispoke. nor has it dropped $12k since clinton. it has dropped, but not $12k.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #23
35. 1st page of google search
http://www.ask.com/web?l=sem&ifr=1&qsrc=999&q=median%20income&siteid=13749&o=13749&ar_uid=2F7BF857-2CD8-41A7-843F-0841CA387D8A&click_id=1C9CF441-71FA-439B-9767-1F7DCB8E4319

Med family 51k, med ind 27k


http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=nyQgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iGoFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1503,19735&dq=median+individual+income+clinton&hl=en

Though not exactly helpful ( I may have mixed up family and ind. income during the CLinton years), the article speaks of the real wage growth during CLintons second term.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:38 AM
Response to Original message
25. And add austerity to this and we might be talking the big D
(depression)
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #25
37. Well yeah. JP Morgan says austerity will drop GDP growth 1.5% for 2012
Expectations are for 2% growth in 2012. so leaves growth at .05%.

The chart shows the job stim leveling and fading in 2010, assuming income disparity is acting as a brake on demand... I want to see the next 2 quarters. I doubt the Christmas selling season is going to do squat for the economy, so the question in my mind is where do we finish off 2011? We're at 1.3% growth, if we are still there going into 2012, then a sliding decline into economic territory that will be worse than what we've seen over 3 trs is a realistic assumption.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. I think JP Morgsn is optimistic
The US has not seen this idiocy since 1937.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. Yes, exactly
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:51 AM
Response to Original message
26. k&r
so many seem so clueless or willfully ignorant at DU -- this bastion of Democratic liberalism -- about social justice and income and wealth distribution that is basic to a functioning civilization.

People can make good decisons as evidenced by Maddow's polls of Americans vis a vis what is offered in DC.

I am all for a Federal Democratic Republic but many don't understand and the media and pols don't say is that stability and prosperity has everything to do with wealth and income distribution. Monetary, fiscal, and tax policy should organized be to maximize the benefit of the American People not next quarter business profits. etc etc etc. Yeah I am a loon.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. But a good loon.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
30. Great post. K&R
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
45. Thank you sir.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. It's "ma'am". : - )
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. Thank you Ma'am, my apologies.
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hifiguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
31. Robert Reich has been beating this drum
as loud as he can for years. And no one in the M$M ever pays any attention to him. :grr:

With no DEMAND, there can be no economic upturn. And the DEMAND comes from the broad middle and working classes, not from plutocrat assholes looking for a second yacht. Nor does it come from sucking even more money out of the economy by way of spending/tax cuts. How stupid does someone have to be to not understand that simnplest possible fact?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:54 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. We hold these thruths to be self evident......
some of us at least.
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chervilant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. MUCH worse than double dip...
For 2007-2010, real GDP decreased at an average annual rate of 0.3 percent; in the previously published estimates, real GDP had increased at an average annual rate of less than 0.1 percent.



US DOC, BEA Current GDP Data, released at "8:30 A.M. EDT, FRIDAY, JULY 29, 2011BEA 11-38"

In other words, by definition, our nation has been in a depression these past four years.

Of note is the fact that our much vaunted financial 'experts' stopped using the word 'Panic' to define 'economic downturns' after the Knickerbocker Trust got it's knickers in a bunch...

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zalinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
34. Even Walmart is complaining that their customers
are running out of money sooner. They've noticed a trend, where the first and last of the month people spend money on essentials, like crazy, but the rest of the month, nothing much else is happening.

Even JC Penny the middle class super store is having problems, their sales are down like 10%. Foot Locker may end up in bankruptcy and other stores may follow suit.

zalinda
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
41. "Americans aren't that stupid, and often can make good choices."
When they're not so distracted by wedge issues, or lies, or whipped into a war frenzy that they forget to vote their own interests.

The MIC has been very effective at divide and rule for the past 60 years.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Right, the dog often works, too well.
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denverbill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
48. SUCCESS!! Free trade is working!! n/t
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Gregorian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
49. I attribute Clinton's success to the explosion of the computer industry. We have that same thing now
If we took our money and put it into alternative energy generation research and development, we would see the same explosion that we did in the 90's.

But since our money is going to war and wealthy pigs, our economy will lag, as the rest of the world takes our place in the new economy. Because the new economy is energy related.
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AikidoSoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 02:39 PM
Response to Original message
51. Our small business is down 64% since 2007
And we are desperate. We sometimes go for a few months before we can write ourselves even one paycheck. If we didn't have our house paid for and our own vegetable garden and a few fruit trees, we would be in the gutter. We are starting to plant blueberry bushes in the hope we can trade the produce for other things, but the drought wiped out more than half of them.

It's very depressing and it's feeling more and more hopeless.
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lunasun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #51
58. I thought I would be OK too if any thing happened by having some big fruit trees and garden also
but after this year's weather and what produced, I sadly see how more vulnerable I am than previously thought........uuugh
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
54. Great and what should be an easily understood post but the willfully ignorant will find ways to not
get it.

There is no good, acceptable, or even sane strain of Hoovernomics.

Failure and contraction with consumer inflation are the only plausible outcomes.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-11 11:27 PM
Response to Original message
57. Doesn't look like we'll ever debrief delouse and debush.
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