Thom Hartmann: 'I've read entire bill and we MUST READ Section 402.'

[seafan]

Talking about it now.


He has read the entire bill. He is talking about Section 402 and is absolutely blown away.


Section 402 has to do with the "Super Commission". The Senate is poised to vote for this entire bill today, which has a trainload of poison pills in the "rules" for the "Super Congress Commission" laid out in Section 402.


We need to find that text and post it so people will know what the Senate is voting on today by passing this horrible debt ceiling bill.


www.thomhartmann.com



Edited to add from Thom's findings so far:

There is only going to be a simple majority for this "super commission" to craft their legislation. Then, when it goes to the full Senate, it will only be an up-or-down vote, with no amendments or discussion/filibusters. Funny, that, because we have been forced into getting 60 votes in the Senate for ANYTHING to get passed, because of the GOP intransigence.

[comtec]

1. but but but Obama's a 32-level 45-dimensional chess master HOW CAN IT BE BAD?!

sad

[LaydeeBug]

25. Everybody chill out! He's got this motherfucker. nt

[Dappleganger]

2. Goodbye Democracy, we hardly knew ya.

[Hosnon]

11. Both chambers still have to vote on whatever the "Super Congress" puts out.

"Super Congress" is a ridiculous scare term.

[SugarShack]

12. Exactly, now a super commission will make decisions for people who did not elect them?

Is this even legal?

[jberryhill]

14. Most bills are written by a committee

The only difference are the rules in voting on bills that come out of this one.

Since when did everyone elect a representative that actually drafts every piece of legislation he or she votes on?

[Supersedeas]

18. and those bills and subject to amendment and filibuster

[seafan]

20. Not pursuant to Section 402. No amendments and no filibusters allowed.

Link

(1) REFERRAL AND REPORTING.—Any committee of the House of Representatives to which the joint committee bill is referred shall report it to the House without amendment not later than December 9, 2011.

.....

(3) CONSIDERATION.—The joint committee bill shall be considered as read. All points of order against the joint committee bill and against its consideration are waived. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the joint committee bill to its passage without intervening motion except 2 hours of debate equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent and one motion to limit debate on the joint committee bill. A motion to reconsider the vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall not be in order.

Shades of Bush V Gore. 'We'll rule this way for this case only. It can't be used as precedent.'



This is an extraconstitutional power grab, yet again.


As the dearly departed Senator Robert Byrd said, the rest of the Senate should just put out a sign that says, 'gone fishing'.



This is not going to go over well.

[jberryhill]

22. And those are House and Senate Rules

I don't see where you come off saying that this law "violates the law".

Quite obviously, if this law says that bills out of this committee are not subject to amendment or filibuster, then it does not "violate the law".

There are bills subject to special or modified rules all of the time in both houses.

There certainly isn't anything in the Constitution about how legislation is to be drafted or what the rules of the Senate and House are supposed to be with respect to amendments and filibusters.

[MedicalAdmin]

29. Most bills are written by corporations and then submitted...

... to a congress critter with a bag of money and a warning not to actually read what their corporate master want them to submit.

Committee? Maybe, but not a public one.

[jberryhill]

31. Correct

[CleanGreenFuture]

3. What's the link to the bill, please?

[rucky]

5. this is what I read...

http://rules.house.gov/Media/file/XML_112_1/WD/DEBT_016.XML

[LSK]

24. go to senate.gov, find votes today, find the bill, click to thomas.gov

find text of legislation, should be easy to find now. Thomas does not give nice links but see if this works:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:4:./temp/~c112rx4Kzu:e65135:

OR

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c112:4:./temp/~c112rx4Kzu::

But the bill is S.365.EAH

Section 402:

SEC. 402. EXPEDITED CONSIDERATION OF JOINT COMMITTEE RECOMMENDATIONS.

(a) Introduction- If approved by the majority required by section 401(b)(3)(B)(ii), the proposed legislative language submitted pursuant to section 401(b)(3)(B)(iv) shall be introduced in the Senate (by request) on the next day on which the Senate is in session by the majority leader of the Senate or by a Member of the Senate designated by the majority leader of the Senate and shall be introduced in the House of Representatives (by request) on the next legislative day by the majority leader of the House or by a Member of the House designated by the majority leader of the House.

(b) Consideration in the House of Representatives-

(1) REFERRAL AND REPORTING- Any committee of the House of Representatives to which the joint committee bill is referred shall report it to the House without amendment not later than December 9, 2011. If a committee fails to report the joint committee bill within that period, it shall be in order to move that the House discharge the committee from further consideration of the bill. Such a motion shall not be in order after the last committee authorized to consider the bill reports it to the House or after the House has disposed of a motion to discharge the bill. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the motion to its adoption without intervening motion except 20 minutes of debate equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent. If such a motion is adopted, the House shall proceed immediately to consider the joint committee bill in accordance with paragraphs (2) and (3). A motion to reconsider the vote by which the motion is disposed of shall not be in order.

(2) PROCEEDING TO CONSIDERATION- After the last committee authorized to consider a joint committee bill reports it to the House or has been discharged (other than by motion) from its consideration, it shall be in order to move to proceed to consider the joint committee bill in the House. Such a motion shall not be in order after the House has disposed of a motion to proceed with respect to the joint committee bill. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the motion to its adoption without intervening motion. A motion to reconsider the vote by which the motion is disposed of shall not be in order.

(3) CONSIDERATION- The joint committee bill shall be considered as read. All points of order against the joint committee bill and against its consideration are waived. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the joint committee bill to its passage without intervening motion except 2 hours of debate equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent and one motion to limit debate on the joint committee bill. A motion to reconsider the vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall not be in order.

(4) VOTE ON PASSAGE- The vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall occur not later than December 23, 2011.

(c) Expedited Procedure in the Senate-

(1) COMMITTEE CONSIDERATION- A joint committee bill introduced in the Senate under subsection (a) shall be jointly referred to the committee or committees of jurisdiction, which committees shall report the bill without any revision and with a favorable recommendation, an unfavorable recommendation, or without recommendation, not later than December 9, 2011. If any committee fails to report the bill within that period, that committee shall be automatically discharged from consideration of the bill, and the bill shall be placed on the appropriate calendar.

(2) MOTION TO PROCEED- Notwithstanding Rule XXII of the Standing Rules of the Senate, it is in order, not later than 2 days of session after the date on which a joint committee bill is reported or discharged from all committees to which it was referred, for the majority leader of the Senate or the majority leader's designee to move to proceed to the consideration of the joint committee bill. It shall also be in order for any Member of the Senate to move to proceed to the consideration of the joint committee bill at any time after the conclusion of such 2-day period. A motion to proceed is in order even though a previous motion to the same effect has been disagreed to. All points of order against the motion to proceed to the joint committee bill are waived. The motion to proceed is not debatable. The motion is not subject to a motion to postpone. A motion to reconsider the vote by which the motion is agreed to or disagreed to shall not be in order. If a motion to proceed to the consideration of the joint committee bill is agreed to, the joint committee bill shall remain the unfinished business until disposed of.

(3) CONSIDERATION- All points of order against the joint committee bill and against consideration of the joint committee bill are waived. Consideration of the joint committee bill and of all debatable motions and appeals in connection therewith shall not exceed a total of 30 hours which shall be divided equally between the Majority and Minority Leaders or their designees. A motion further to limit debate on the joint committee bill is in order, shall require an affirmative vote of three-fifths of the Members duly chosen and sworn, and is not debatable. Any debatable motion or appeal is debatable for not to exceed 1 hour, to be divided equally between those favoring and those opposing the motion or appeal. All time used for consideration of the joint committee bill, including time used for quorum calls and voting, shall be counted against the total 30 hours of consideration.

(4) NO AMENDMENTS- An amendment to the joint committee bill, or a motion to postpone, or a motion to proceed to the consideration of other business, or a motion to recommit the joint committee bill, is not in order.

(5) VOTE ON PASSAGE- If the Senate has voted to proceed to the joint committee bill, the vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall occur immediately following the conclusion of the debate on a joint committee bill, and a single quorum call at the conclusion of the debate if requested. The vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall occur not later than December 23, 2011.

(6) RULINGS OF THE CHAIR ON PROCEDURE- Appeals from the decisions of the Chair relating to the application of the rules of the Senate, as the case may be, to the procedure relating to a joint committee bill shall be decided without debate.

(d) Amendment- The joint committee bill shall not be subject to amendment in either the House of Representatives or the Senate.

(e) Consideration by the Other House-

(1) IN GENERAL- If, before passing the joint committee bill, one House receives from the other a joint committee bill--

(A) the joint committee bill of the other House shall not be referred to a committee; and

(B) the procedure in the receiving House shall be the same as if no joint committee bill had been received from the other House until the vote on passage, when the joint committee bill received from the other House shall supplant the joint committee bill of the receiving House.

(2) REVENUE MEASURE- This subsection shall not apply to the House of Representatives if the joint committee bill received from the Senate is a revenue measure.

(f) Rules to Coordinate Action With Other House-

(1) TREATMENT OF JOINT COMMITTEE BILL OF OTHER HOUSE- If the Senate fails to introduce or consider a joint committee bill under this section, the joint committee bill of the House shall be entitled to expedited floor procedures under this section.

(2) TREATMENT OF COMPANION MEASURES IN THE SENATE- If following passage of the joint committee bill in the Senate, the Senate then receives the joint committee bill from the House of Representatives, the House-passed joint committee bill shall not be debatable. The vote on passage of the joint committee bill in the Senate shall be considered to be the vote on passage of the joint committee bill received from the House of Representatives.

(3) VETOES- If the President vetoes the joint committee bill, debate on a veto message in the Senate under this section shall be 1 hour equally divided between the majority and minority leaders or their designees.

(g) Loss of Privilege- The provisions of this section shall cease to apply to the joint committee bill if--

(1) the joint committee fails to vote on the report or proposed legislative language required under section 401(b)(3)(B)(i) not later than November 23, 2011; or

(2) the joint committee bill does not pass both Houses not later than December 23, 2011.

[Windy]

4. the "super commission" is put in place to try and avoid more teabagger obstruction... nt

[Ruby the Liberal]

7. Yet Coburn and Chambliss (2 of the gang of 6) voted against the bill just now

Nice try looking for a positive though.

[SugarShack]

13. Is MY rep going to be on the "super commission" This is NOT legal!

[jberryhill]

15. Is your rep on every other drafting committee?

I doubt it.

[SusanaMontana41]

28. Don't know whether it's illegal, but it IS undemocratic. n/t

[Windy]

6. Link here

http://rules.house.gov/Media/file/XML_112_1/WD/DEBT_016.XML

[McCamy Taylor]

8. Is "super commission" a nice way of saying IMF? Will they force us to drain our pensions,

cut unemployment and implement "austerity measures" if we do not want to be ostracized by the rest of the world? Funny, the U.S. I know has more nukes than any other country in the world and it is used to taking what it wants when it wants it no matter who owns it. So, why are the same Neo-con/right wingers suddenly so concerned about what the rest of the world thinks about our bond rating?

[DefenseLawyer]

9. Gleichschaltung n/t

[seafan]

10. Section 402 text here.

LINK

SEC. 402. Expedited consideration of joint committee recommendations.

(a) Introduction.—If approved by the majority required by section 401(b)(3)(B)(ii), the proposed legislative language submitted pursuant to section 401(b)(3)(B)(iv) shall be introduced in the Senate (by request) on the next day on which the Senate is in session by the majority leader of the Senate or by a Member of the Senate designated by the majority leader of the Senate and shall be introduced in the House of Representatives (by request) on the next legislative day by the majority leader of the House or by a Member of the House designated by the majority leader of the House.

(b) Consideration in the house of representatives.—

(1) REFERRAL AND REPORTING.—Any committee of the House of Representatives to which the joint committee bill is referred shall report it to the House without amendment not later than December 9, 2011. If a committee fails to report the joint committee bill within that period, it shall be in order to move that the House discharge the committee from further consideration of the bill. Such a motion shall not be in order after the last committee authorized to consider the bill reports it to the House or after the House has disposed of a motion to discharge the bill. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the motion to its adoption without intervening motion except 20 minutes of debate equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent. If such a motion is adopted, the House shall proceed immediately to consider the joint committee bill in accordance with paragraphs (2) and (3). A motion to reconsider the vote by which the motion is disposed of shall not be in order.

(2) PROCEEDING TO CONSIDERATION.—After the last committee authorized to consider a joint committee bill reports it to the House or has been discharged (other than by motion) from its consideration, it shall be in order to move to proceed to consider the joint committee bill in the House. Such a motion shall not be in order after the House has disposed of a motion to proceed with respect to the joint committee bill. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the motion to its adoption without intervening motion. A motion to reconsider the vote by which the motion is disposed of shall not be in order.

(3) CONSIDERATION.—The joint committee bill shall be considered as read. All points of order against the joint committee bill and against its consideration are waived. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the joint committee bill to its passage without intervening motion except 2 hours of debate equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent and one motion to limit debate on the joint committee bill. A motion to reconsider the vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall not be in order.

(4) VOTE ON PASSAGE.—The vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall occur not later than December 23, 2011.

(c) Expedited procedure in the Senate.—

(1) COMMITTEE CONSIDERATION.—A joint committee bill introduced in the Senate under subsection (a) shall be jointly referred to the committee or committees of jurisdiction, which committees shall report the bill without any revision and with a favorable recommendation, an unfavorable recommendation, or without recommendation, not later than December 9, 2011. If any committee fails to report the bill within that period, that committee shall be automatically discharged from consideration of the bill, and the bill shall be placed on the appropriate calendar.

(2) MOTION TO PROCEED.—Notwithstanding Rule XXII of the Standing Rules of the Senate, it is in order, not later than 2 days of session after the date on which a joint committee bill is reported or discharged from all committees to which it was referred, for the majority leader of the Senate or the majority leader’s designee to move to proceed to the consideration of the joint committee bill. It shall also be in order for any Member of the Senate to move to proceed to the consideration of the joint committee bill at any time after the conclusion of such 2-day period. A motion to proceed is in order even though a previous motion to the same effect has been disagreed to. All points of order against the motion to proceed to the joint committee bill are waived. The motion to proceed is not debatable. The motion is not subject to a motion to postpone. A motion to reconsider the vote by which the motion is agreed to or disagreed to shall not be in order. If a motion to proceed to the consideration of the joint committee bill is agreed to, the joint committee bill shall remain the unfinished business until disposed of.

(3) CONSIDERATION.—All points of order against the joint committee bill and against consideration of the joint committee bill are waived. Consideration of the joint committee bill and of all debatable motions and appeals in connection therewith shall not exceed a total of 30 hours which shall be divided equally between the Majority and Minority Leaders or their designees. A motion further to limit debate on the joint committee bill is in order, shall require an affirmative vote of three-fifths of the Members duly chosen and sworn, and is not debatable. Any debatable motion or appeal is debatable for not to exceed 1 hour, to be divided equally between those favoring and those opposing the motion or appeal. All time used for consideration of the joint committee bill, including time used for quorum calls and voting, shall be counted against the total 30 hours of consideration.

(4) NO AMENDMENTS.—An amendment to the joint committee bill, or a motion to postpone, or a motion to proceed to the consideration of other business, or a motion to recommit the joint committee bill, is not in order.

(5) VOTE ON PASSAGE.—If the Senate has voted to proceed to the joint committee bill, the vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall occur immediately following the conclusion of the debate on a joint committee bill, and a single quorum call at the conclusion of the debate if requested. The vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall occur not later than December 23, 2011.

(6) RULINGS OF THE CHAIR ON PROCEDURE.—Appeals from the decisions of the Chair relating to the application of the rules of the Senate, as the case may be, to the procedure relating to a joint committee bill shall be decided without debate.

(d) Amendment.—The joint committee bill shall not be subject to amendment in either the House of Representatives or the Senate.

(e) Consideration by the other house.—

(1) IN GENERAL.—If, before passing the joint committee bill, one House receives from the other a joint committee bill—

(A) the joint committee bill of the other House shall not be referred to a committee; and

(B) the procedure in the receiving House shall be the same as if no joint committee bill had been received from the other House until the vote on passage, when the joint committee bill received from the other House shall supplant the joint committee bill of the receiving House.

(2) REVENUE MEASURE.—This subsection shall not apply to the House of Representatives if the joint committee bill received from the Senate is a revenue measure.

(f) Rules to coordinate action with other house.—

(1) TREATMENT OF JOINT COMMITTEE BILL OF OTHER HOUSE.—If the Senate fails to introduce or consider a joint committee bill under this section, the joint committee bill of the House shall be entitled to expedited floor procedures under this section.

(2) TREATMENT OF COMPANION MEASURES IN THE SENATE.—If following passage of the joint committee bill in the Senate, the Senate then receives the joint committee bill from the House of Representatives, the House-passed joint committee bill shall not be debatable. The vote on passage of the joint committee bill in the Senate shall be considered to be the vote on passage of the joint committee bill received from the House of Representatives.

(3) VETOES.—If the President vetoes the joint committee bill, debate on a veto message in the Senate under this section shall be 1 hour equally divided between the majority and minority leaders or their designees.

(g) Loss of privilege.—The provisions of this section shall cease to apply to the joint committee bill if—

(1) the joint committee fails to vote on the report or proposed legislative language required under section 401(b)(3)(B)(i) not later than November 23, 2011; or

(2) the joint committee bill does not pass both Houses not later than December 23, 2011.

Reading it now.

[xchrom]

17. +1

No ammenments - 30 hrs debate in the house.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jefferson23]

16. Bookmarked, thank you seafan. K&R n/t

[seafan]

19. And we will be in a vicious fight over the December holidays over the "commission's" actions.

The fight just glided over from "I don't want another debt ceiling fight over the holidays!" to "What the hell is this extraconstitutional commission DOING??"


It will be a massive understatement to suggest that this will not bode for a good end to this year.

[drokhole]

21. Should be a lot easier to focus that corporate cash on those 12 individuals. nt

[grahamhgreen]

23. Funnily enough it will take 58.33% to get it out of the commission

[Horse with no Name]

26. 6 republicans will hold the 6 Democrats hostage

until the get one to break....and then it will go to the Senate where Reid will roll over and play dead.

This is antithetical to a representative government.

[Chimichurri]

30. But Randi Rhodes told me yesterday that we should just trust Obama would never do us wrong.

She went on and on about how he won big on this deal.

I love Thomm for what he does. Randi has been nothing but an unwavering Obama cheerleader.

[seafan]

32. Unfortunately, she exhibits a blind spot occasionally that undercuts her message.

Yesterday, she was saying that the creation of the "SuperCongress" Committee was a 'brilliant' idea. Apparently, leaving the rest of the Congress out in the cold on the creation of legislation, is of little concern.

End runs around the rest of Congress are never good, especially with such deeply divisive issues. This kind of thinking brought the tea party cranks to center stage.


We had the same concerns when a "chosen few" started dickering around with health care. We know how that turned out.


We should not have a government ruled by 'gangs'.

[Chimichurri]

33. I agree completely. I'm still stunned at her nonsense and find it very troubling.

[SalviaBlue]

37. Apparently Randi was right. Thom said this morning that he misunderstood

the language and that it is standard language in most bills.

[SalviaBlue]

34. He is revising his opinion on this right now. He misunderstood the meaning.

It is standard language.

[seafan]

35. What did he say? n/t

[SalviaBlue]

36. He said he misunderstood the language.

And that apparently it standard language in most bills.

[seafan]

39. Specifics please? Probably not the sections about no amendments or filibusters allowed.

That is very clear. See post #20.

(1) REFERRAL AND REPORTING.—Any committee of the House of Representatives to which the joint committee bill is referred shall report it to the House without amendment not later than December 9, 2011.

.....

(3) CONSIDERATION.—The joint committee bill shall be considered as read. All points of order against the joint committee bill and against its consideration are waived. The previous question shall be considered as ordered on the joint committee bill to its passage without intervening motion except 2 hours of debate equally divided and controlled by the proponent and an opponent and one motion to limit debate on the joint committee bill. A motion to reconsider the vote on passage of the joint committee bill shall not be in order.

Link

What, specifically, did Hartmann say he misunderstood?


We work in details here.

[Chimichurri]

38. that could mean anything. what are the specifics?