Kinda wishing Hilary had won at this point.

[cui bono]

I have never liked her and I really did not want her as president during the campaign. But she would NEVER have let the Republicans run circles around her and play her like a fool.

Wish I could see how she would have dealt with these lying idiot domestic terrorists. She would have torn them a hundred new a-holes by now.

[peace frog]

1. Bullshit

Hillary Clinton is a female Obama. Their policies are virtually indistinguishable.

[DURHAM D]

How would you know? She hasn't been President for the past 2.5 years.

gheez

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peace frog]

44. HRC would not have done anything differently

from Obama. Terribly sorry to burst your little bubble. :hi:

[Bodhi BloodWave]

201. there is one big difference, the wars

Hillary would have agreed to the foolish 10 year plan for afghanistan with a much more substantial increase in troops, i do believe she argued for that path back when the course was to be decided

[peace frog]

204. Obama argued for all kinds of things, as well

and changed course quickly when the stated goal was not possible. In that light as in others, HRC would have done the same as BHO.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

207. it points to an split of position tho

Obama got his way, small increase for a small period(they are already drawing down after all) to give it one final shot

Hillary had been arguing for an 80k increase with a 10 year plan which Obama was not at all interested in.

Are you telling me that if Hillary was president she would not have gone for the 80k plan she supported at the time of the afghan debate?

[peace frog]

210. I'm telling you there isn't a nickel's worth of difference

between the two regarding worldview, policy and goals. Third Way DLC all the way.

[Forkboy]

46. Previous voting records, stated policy positions.

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton voted on the same issue 210 times. Of those roll calls, they voted similarly on 198 issues.

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are 94% similar

http://www.davetufts.com/votes/

[lbrtbell]

66. That's a misleading statistic

Obama voted very differently as a senator. Now his heart belongs to the corporations.

I'm not saying HRC would be any better, just that she wouldn't look like such a colossal ass as she sold us down the river.

[Forkboy]

73. I don't think it's that misleading at all.

They have minor differences, then and now. I see nothing to suggest she would have handled this any better or any worse than Obama did.

just that she wouldn't look like such a colossal ass as she sold us down the river.

Appearances aside, we would still be getting sold down the river.

And now I'm going to go look up where the saying "sold down the river" originated. :)

On edit:

Origin

This phrase originated in the Mississippi region of the USA during slave trading days. Slaves who caused trouble were sold from the northern slave states into the much harsher conditions on plantations in the lower Mississippi.

The earliest reference I can find to the phrase in print is in The Ohio Repository, May 1837:

"One man, in Franklin County has lately realized thirty thousand dollars, in a speculation on slaves, which ho bought in Virginia, and sold down the river."

The figurative use of the phrase, meaning simply to deceive or cheat, began in the early 20th century. For example, this piece from P. G. Wodehouse's Small Bachelor, 1927:

"When Sigsbee Waddington married for the second time, he to all intents and purposes sold himself down the river."

I learn something new everyday. :)

[SwampG8r]

191. my favorite

let the cat out of the bag
and it has a brother saying
bought a pig in a poke
funny stuff

[cui bono]

96. That's what I'm thinking. Obama was my third choice but my others

were out of the race by the time I got to vote. Then I got caught up in the "feel good" of the times and was really enthusiastic about him winning. And now I am so let down.

I think Hilary would have at least fought. Obama is pathetic and has made me lose hope, ironically.

[karynnj]

60. You would not know either

No one can ever know exactly what would have happened had the path not taken been taken.

However, you can look to past things that Hillary did and try to actually make a case that she was an outstanding negotiator. The problem is that, though there are other things you can make a good case for, this is not one of them.

To my knowledge, here is a summary of when she tried to lead. Obviously the most clear cut is when Bill Clinton gave her the lead on healthcare. This was in a majority Democrat Senate and House in a less polarized time. Hillary ended up with no a single Democratic Senator on teh Finance committee (a committee the bill would have had to go through supporting her plan). Bill Clinton pulled that plan and it was never voted on.

Then there were her years as a Senator, she did not lead on any major piece of legislation. There were plenty of puff pieces on how everyone in the Senate loved her, but I never saw her as the key person to any of the agreements - and I was watching the Senate enough to see that, for instance, John Kerry and Olympia Snowe were able to quietly get support in both parties to raise the CAFE standards for the first time in 2 decades in I think 2006.

In her current position, there is to my knowledge, only one time where HRC's diplomacy (the same skill, used differently) was evident. That was in keeping the Armenians from pulling out of an agreement they were scheduled to sign with Turkey. While HRC has been a very good administrator of the State Department according to people who deal with the State department, when diplomacy is needed, she is almost never the one sent.

I concede that before Obama was elected, there were few things in his resume that suggested his skill. That was the fact that he did lead on getting teeth into the ethics bill - especially against lobbyists bundling money. He worked with Feingold on this. There were a couple of Illinois legislature bills that also showed some ability of finding common ground. That actually was considered one reason to prefer Obama - in spite of Clinton's longer experience.

[cui bono]

100. Very true. I just want to see someone give it to the Republicans and I think she would have.

Even if in the end she agreed to things I wouldn't like. But I cannot even listen to Obama anymore. He just takes it and takes it and gives and gives. It really makes me ill.

I would've voted for Kucinich had I had that opportunity, but by the time I got to vote it was really between Obama and Clinton and I voted for Obama.

[immoderate]

103. It is no effort for me to thing of both Clinton and Obama as Republicans.

They are both DLCers and corporatists.

--imm

[karynnj]

118. Neither Clinton, nor Obama are Republicans

Your vision is as distorted as the famous map of the US from the point of view of a NY city resident. You are so far to the left that the huge differences between the parties can not be seen.

Consider that any Democrat would have signed the extension of the SCHIP bill -- and no Republican would have.

[cui bono]

161. They just play one on TV, I mean in the WH. n/t

It has nothing to do with people being left, no matter how far. Your perception is skewed if you don't see that they are both right of center. And I mean the actual center, not where pols like them have pushed it to.

[karynnj]

169. You base this on what?

Your circle of friends? People on DU?

The fact is that, more and more, areas are becoming politically more homogenous. Beyond that, people's self select of friends makes their circle even more so. This leads to people on both sides making the comment you are making - with the same fervor. On the right, the claim is that we are really a center right country, where they argue the majority is not even where centrist Republicans are, but where the tea party is. You are implicitly making the mirror argument.

Now, I agree that Obama may not have got the deal he should have here, but I don't think it fair to look at the deal and define it as what he would like if he could pass anything he wanted.

As to using DU as a proxy for the Democratic party, it really does not work. DU has a higher percent of liberals and progressives than the party as a hole. I saw this whenever I went to Democratic events, organizing meetings or any campaign work. If you don't believe this, look at the last two Presidential elections - the only two in DU's history. In 2004, DU would have elected Dean, possibly with over 50% of the vote - far from what happened in the states. In 2007, there was a long time when Edwards' supporters outnumbered any other group - yet, in real life, he was always a distant third nationwide. (He briefly scored better in Iowa - where he spent a huge amount of time.)

[Leopolds Ghost]

187. The tea party is center right?

"On the right, the claim is that we are really a center right country, where they argue the majority is not even where centrist Republicans are, but where the tea party is."

[ZombieHorde]

182. They seemed identical to me during the primaries.

I personally believe the infighting on DU during the primaries was mostly about race and gender. Their policies were the same.

[lumberjack_jeff]

175. Yeah. I remember when Obama talked about the vast right wing conspiracy.

Many of you are well enough off that the tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.

Both the American people and nations that censor the internet should understand that our government is committed to helping promote internet freedom.

I also believe that we have an extraordinary opportunity for the United States and European Union to lead the world in developing and implementing new and more efficient technologies - smart electrical grids and electrical vehicles.

In the Bible it says they asked Jesus how many times you should forgive, and he said 70 times 7. Well, I want you all to know that I'm keeping a chart.

You show people what you're willing to fight for when you fight your friends.

She knows these assholes and could combat them effectively.

Some see the world as it is and ask 'why'? Some see the world as it could be and ask 'why not'? Some don't really see the world at all, but kind of visualize it as they'd like it to be.

[comtec]

180. because bill knew how to control the gop

granted he was effectively one of them, except that he did manage a fair amount of progressive legislation while he sent jobs over seas.

but Clinton would not have capitulated on THIS issue...

sadly for the rest I don't know if Hilary would have been better.

also I think perhaps she feels she dodged a bullet as well.

[BumRushDaShow]

2. Former Chair of the DLC. n/t

[musette_sf]

21. + 1

says it all

[marmar]

3. Yeah, why buy a Dodge Stratus when you can have a Chrysler Cirrus.

mt

[fishbulb703]

123. I DRIVE A DODGE STRATUS! - Will Ferrel nt

[GreenPartyVoter]

173. Exactly.

[Joe the Revelator]

4. This is what 90% of the Obama hatred comes from....PUMA bullshit.

[BumRushDaShow]

9. +infinity

They have all crawled out from under the rocks and re-infested DU.

[11 Bravo]

23. And we're not allowed to say where the other 10% comes from.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

50. They have to tell themselves that.

[Joe the Revelator]

56. 'President Ben Dover'? Thanks for proving my point.

[spooky3]

40. I have a relative who was a big donor and volunteer to the Obama campaign and he is angry as hell.

He is extremely disappointed and he is not naive about politics.

And he is most definitely not alone. I think he is typical of the DU voices here expressing similar sentiments.

[Forkboy]

51. Well, he has to be a PUMA or a troll.

Sorry, the matter has been settled by Joe and 11 Bravo, and there's no way they could be wrong.

[spooky3]

55. You're right; he's going to be surprised when I enlighten him.

:-)

[QC]

71. He might also be a racist, you know. n/t

[Historic NY]

47. Wow its like the dam opened up........

pizza boys would be having lots of trouble here in Paradise.

[MannyGoldstein]

68. You don't think it comes from these?

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-june-15-2010/respect-my-authoritah
http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/07/obama-demands-the-bill-i-sign-must-include-public-option.php

etc?

I strongly supported Obama against Clinton. But President Obama is a whole different thing than Candidate Obama.

[Joe the Revelator]

72. Self delete

.

[MannyGoldstein]

75. You are 100% wrong.

I supported him early on and contributed to his campaign. $25 reward if you can find a post to the contrary.

[Joe the Revelator]

84. You are 100% right and I apologize.

After a cursory search, it would appear that I do have you confused.

Seriously, sorry.

[MannyGoldstein]

162. No worries

I appreciate that you did the legwork.

[SwampG8r]

192. can i have the 25 bucks?

[Snoutport]

76. PUMA?

[Forkboy]

79. PUMAs are everywhere you know.

And they're coming for your strawberries.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uSNpfk4dbL4/SqYwjFi-LRI/AAAAAAAAAOM/XFMddJyZIi0/s400/Bogart+CaineMutiny+trial+b%26w.jpg

[cui bono]

102. Lock up your small children and pets!!!

[MADem]

166. It stands for "Party Unity, My Ass" and refers to voters who were

angry that Obama got the nod and Clinton did not.

Frankly, I see less party unity here today than I did after the primary. The irony is, the disunity today is coming from many of the people who were yelling at the PUMA people because they weren't happy with Obama as the candidate.

I voted for Clinton in the primary, and Obama in the general. I intend to support Obama in the next election.

Funny, Obama and Clinton are getting along fine now; they've managed to get past the acrimony of battle to work together. Wish people here could do the same.

[Hotler]

95. The dislike for Obama right now comes ....

from the fact the man has never showed any spine. Obama is not one of us and never will be. All he and his family has to do is make through these four years and they are set for life. Flame away.

[Joe the Revelator]

105. What do you mean 'not one of us'??

[U4ikLefty]

150. us = working class.

You do know what that is...right?

[Joe the Revelator]

157. Save the victimization bs for someone else.

[U4ikLefty]

160. I guess that's all you've got...pretty sad.

I'd love to tell you where to stick you "victimization" line, but that's against the rules.

[MADem]

167. Obama was raised by his grandparents, and gramps was often unemployed.

The check came from granny's job at the bank. They lived in an APARTMENT, not a single family home.

He was a scholarship kid at that fancy private school.

He led an interesting life in an idyllic setting, and got to travel to Indonesia when young, but he wasn't from the upper classes. He didn't start making serious money for quite some time after Harvard, too, because he was doing that community work.

[U4ikLefty]

186. When did he ever have to struggle from paychek to paycheck?

You know what I mean.

[MADem]

193. I doubt he was living large in college, law school or the years immediately thereafter.

He took his time starting a family, which was sensible--it's easier to live on the poor side when you are single.

[CakeGrrl]

158. Your 'reasoning' is pretty flawed.

You really think President Obama got into this to make some money and get out ahead?

His wife held a six-figure prestigious job, they're both attorneys, and he was already an author. As President of the Harvard Law Review, he could write his own ticket in the private sector.

But it's much more of a kick to take a job where the Secret Service has to field an unprecedented number of death threats against you, where the criticisms come fast and furious from every direction, where you make pressure decisions that will always anger someone, where you have to make decisions that affect lives.

Yeah, it was much easier to go this route for some fast money rather than living the life they led.

What is the threshold, by the way, for being considered "one of us"? Is there a dollar amount? Is there a standard by which others can be comparatively measured?

:eyes:

[cui bono]

101. What is that supposed to mean? If you think I was Hilary supporter you are dead wrong.

I didn't lie in my post. I just know she is a lot braver than Obama and would have been outspoken and he is such a HUGE disappointment. Worse than a disappointment really. I am sad for this country because I fear he has pushed it over the brink. And willingly. Without a peep of protest. He invited them into the administration, right through the front door, for fuck's sake.

[tnlefty]

122. Not for me...I took a lot of crap for not supporting Hillary

during the primaries.

I don't hate the president, just disagree with his policy positions, I'm not a PUMA, and I don't think that she would've appointed an Arne Duncan, and I've said to my Dem friends who supported her, that I don't think she'd take this shit from the right after what they put her and Bill (who is one of the biggest reasons that I cringed while she was running) through.

You are mistaken.

[Skip Intro]

131. Bullshit.

It's not hatred to criticize a president who has failed to stand for even basic Democratic values, and dismissing sincere discontent and disillusionment with Obama from Democrats and others on the left as part of some fringe element does no one a service.

[readmoreoften]

165. Clearly. That's why this thread has zero recs. All that love for Clinton.

:eyes:

[lumberjack_jeff]

176. No. I think it's mostly newspapers. nt

[MADem]

205. That's horseshit.

I was a Clinton supporter, and I wasn't happy when she was demonized and ridiculed, and that "Carolina stunt" was pulled to put her on the Yay Gay side, while Obama was allied with the religious cadre that was quoting Leviticus to get him that primary.

All that said, when the handwriting was on the wall, I got over it. I reluctantly supported Obama, and now I'm one that will actually do some hard work for him to get a 2nd term, which is more than I can say for a lot of the folks here who were screaming hate at me because I didn't get on their bandwagon fast enough.

I don't know a single Clinton supporter who isn't on the same page as I am--they believe that it is more important to keep a Dem in the WH than carp about old issues.

The hate isn't coming from what you call "PUMAs"--it's coming from "True Believer" 2008 Obama supporters who are angry because they superimposed THEIR beliefs and desires on Obama, and those beliefs and desires were NEVER Obama's to begin with.

[mmonk]

5. She would have had many of the same advisors.

I chose Obama based on hos advisors but he canned many of them for Clintonites. Who knows, maybe she would have chosen new ones?

[ingac70]

6. The Hillary that was President of the Young Republicans?

Do your fantasies really make you feel better?

[Bluebear]

10. Better a young republican than making the switch in your 40's

[leftstreet]

12. snap

:thumbsup:

You're quick

[Bluebear]

22. Merci :)

[ingac70]

14. She's never "switched"....

she's more conservative than her husband. And he had no problems cutting spending on the poor, etc.

[Bluebear]

20. It flew over your head but whatever

[Starry Messenger]

52. !!

You're like Zorro.

[Karmadillo]

Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier!

nt

[Bluebear]

99. Lolol

Thank you thank you very much

[Ikonoklast]

77. You look good for your age.

[XemaSab]

7. I dunno if she would have been better

but I strongly doubt she would have been worse.

I was meditating this afternoon on leadership. Once the confidence of the people is gone, can you still call someone a leader?

[gauguin57]

8. My friend and I were just talking about that yesterday. How would this all play out ...

... if Hillary had been POTUS?

I think she knew the players in Washington better than Obama does (though Obama has Biden at his side) ... and you KNOW Bill would have been working the phones behind the scenes.

But we'll never know, will we?

[XemaSab]

11. I don't think she would have been naive enough

to have any delusions about bipartisanship.

[ClarkUSA]

34. DLC Hillary never raised her voice in opposition to BushCo FUBARs during her Senate career.

What makes anyone think she'd do it when she was POTUS?

As SoS, she's constantly chosen the hawkish route as expressed by Gen. McChrystal for Afganistan (she advised Pres. Obama to add 80,000 troops for 10+ years) and sided Bob Gates and the Pentagon on advocating a much smaller troop withdrawal size over a longer schedule. Thank goodness President Obama rejected her advice in both instances.

[Dawson Leery]

53. It was Bill Clinton who said invoke the 14th amendment.

[Ikonoklast]

81. Well, 'Ol Bill knows a thing or two about impeachment proceedings.

[marmar]

16. But Bill was in favor of "entitlement reform"

Different dish, same taste.

[searchingforlight]

26. Didn't Bill make some comments recently about compromise?

I think that the better question is where would we have been if Dennis Kucinich had won.

[DURHAM D]

37. Bill first raised the question of Obama using the 14th. nt

[ClarkUSA]

13. Did you want an 80,000 Afghanistan troop surge for 10+ yrs under Gen. McCrystal like she did?

[Coyote_Bandit]

15. I've yet to find

a politician that I liked.

Does that mean that I am excused from ever again having to vote for one of the fuckers?

[readmoreoften]

17. I don't think she'd be any better. Or worse for that matter.

Just lower expectations from most.

[ej510]

18. No one can accuse me of being a Puma if you look at my posts from the 2008 presidential election. I

defended Obama harder than anyone.

[whathehell]

62. No PUMA here, either. I voted for Obama in primary & general, and I think she may have been better.

[rufus dog]

19. Bullshit!

One was a proven sell out, the other was a potential sell out.

[Poll_Blind]

25. Between the two of them, I'd STILL vote for Obama again in the same situation.

I still believe Obama was and still is the finer of the two candidates in that race. Draw what conclusions you may.

PB

[seabeyond]

27. she is on the right of obama. think twice about clintons NAFTA and own cuts on poor. nt

[DURHAM D]

35. Obama said he was going to change NAFTA.

What happened?

Oh that's right. He had Samantha call Canada to say he was "just kidding".

[seabeyond]

38. what does that have to do with what i posted?

and really, i am not familiar with obama saying... just kidding so not gonna argue.

[DURHAM D]

41. It has everything to do with what you posted.

Obama campaigned on "changing" NAFTA. But he had Samantha Power secretly call to tell everyone he was not serious.

[seabeyond]

54. so? really. had nothing to do with what i posted. out of obama and hillary,

i think hillary is more right than obama. and an example of the right hillary would be is taking a look at her hubby's presidency. i dont think there is a lot of difference. but i had a tad bet more hope with obama than hillary.

i do not think they would have done their presidency much different at all.

i like hillary fine

i had no great hopes for either

i have received about wht i expected out fo obama.

[AtomicKitten]

135. LOL. That's not what happened. Keith Olbermann explains --

The clip starts with Chris Mathews and then goes into the reporting by Keith Olbermann: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPTvuaGBfG8

[seabeyond]

139. with all the rhetoric about obama, i didnt buy it or not. but wow, thanks for the heads up. nt

[AtomicKitten]

148. Just something I remember from the campaign and Keith's a good source. nt

[seabeyond]

153. i stayed out of this shit in the primaries and dont want to wade in it now. nt

[DURHAM D]

142. I guess you forgot that when the dust settled it was the Obama campaign

that lied about the events.

[AtomicKitten]

159. LOL. Sure despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Keith's a journalist and an infinitely more reliable truth-teller than you are.

From the Atlantic
link: http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2008/03/nafta-gate-update/219235/
quoting from: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/article671375.ece

NAFTA-Gate Update
MAR 6 2008, 9:44 AM ET


We now know it actually began with alleged hypocrisy from ... the Clinton camp:

"Quite a few people heard it," said one source in the room.

"He said someone from (Hillary) Clinton's campaign is telling the embassy to take it with a grain of salt. . . That someone called us and told us not to worry."

Government officials did not deny the conversation took place.

Will the press take this back to the Clinton campaign? Or is the one unvetted candidate in this race going to get a pass again?

[Little Star]

197. fyi: Obama was talking out both sides of his mouth on this one!

SLATE.COM

Canada's Obama NAFTA Memo
By Bonnie Goldstein
Posted Tuesday, March 4, 2008

Canada's Obama NAFTA Memo

On Feb. 9 Austan Goolsbee, the senior economic adviser to Barack Obama's presidential campaign, had a meeting with Georges Rioux, consul general for the Canadian government. The two men met in Chicago, where Rioux maintains a consular office for the states of Illinois, Missouri, and Wisconsin and where Goolsbee teaches economics at the University of Chicago. (Slate readers may also remember Goolsbee as a onetime "Dismal Science" columnist.) Afterward, Joseph DeMora, a consulate staff member, wrote an enthusiastic summary (see below and the following two pages) for Canadian Ambassador Michael Wilson. In the memo, DeMora praised Goolsbee's "intellectual prowess … approachability, curiosity and youthful enthusiasm" and alerted Wilson that the Obama brain-truster "appeared genuinely … impressed by the magnitude" of the economic relationship between the United States and Canada (see below).


For the Canadians, a key point of concern was Obama's sharp criticism of the North American Free Trade Agreement. DeMora wrote Wilson that in the Chicago meeting, Goolsbee "candidly acknowledged the protectionist sentiment that has emerged, particularly in the Midwest, during the primary campaign" but reassured Rioux that Obama's NAFTA-bashing "should be viewed as more about political positioning than a clear articulation of policy plans." Three weeks later, Canada's CTV News reported that a "senior member" of Obama's campaign had phoned Wilson personally to advise him to "not be worried about what Obama says about NAFTA." The Obama campaign denied that story, which (if you believe DeMora's account) was only slightly off the mark, and declined to elaborate. On March 3 the Associated Press released the DeMora memo, which by then had circulated widely within the Canadian government. Asked once again to comment, Obama said his campaign provided Canada no such reassurance while Goolsbee maintained that DeMora "misinterpreted" his comments. For its part, the Chicago consulate smoothed things over with a statement saying, "there was no intention to convey, in any way, that Senator Obama and his campaign team were taking a different position in public from views expressed in private." It looks like President Obama may owe one to our friendly neighbors to the north.

[seabeyond]

140. durham, did you listen to the video? that was clinton that did that and let obama fry

for it.

you really didnt know better before passing it off tonight?

[DURHAM D]

143. That was Keith's take but it turned out that it was the Obama

campaign that lied - Samantha Power.

[seabeyond]

151. ok, so i like accuarcy and wasted my time on this garbage issue which i didnt want to do

in the first place.


"It’s now clear that a Canadian news report that started this flap wasn’t accurate. No evidence has surfaced to show that any Obama "staffer" telephoned the Canadian ambassador in Washington, and all concerned deny that any such conversation took place. But it is equally clear that Obama’s senior economic adviser did visit Canada’s consulate in Chicago on Feb. 8, and that NAFTA was one of the several topics discussed.

Exactly what was said is not so clear, however. The memo says Obama’s anti-NAFTA stance was described as just "political maneuvering," but the adviser says he said no such thing. The campaign says the adviser wasn’t authorized to convey any message from the candidate anyway. No audio recording or verbatim transcript of the disputed conversation is available, and there’s no reason to expect that any exists. So the best we can do is to provide readers with the essential details as they have unfolded over the past several days, with links to original sources when available. On this one, you’ll have to be the judge. "


http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/the-facts-about-nafta-gate/

and there is more to the article, but i dont have any interest in reading it.

[Little Star]

198. You are right DURHAM D and it's all over the internet for anyone

who likes to at least know the truth!

[Little Star]

199. I love KO but he was 100% wrong on that issue.

[Leopolds Ghost]

188. Didn't that happen before the election? He literally informed Canada he was lying to his base

Nixon style.

On edit: Lest anyone accuse me of being a PUMA, I'm quite sure Hillary was on board with that.

NAFTA was her husband's legacy and I'm sure she wanted to protect it. :-(

Really, the person pushing it was that fatass -- what's his name? Larry Summers?

Is he still welcome in the White House?

[arcane1]

28. I have no reason whatsoever to believe she would have been different n/t

[Auntie Bush]

29. Elections have consequences.

As an original Hillary supporter...I've often thought I'll bet she's glad she isn't president. She would have been treated just like her husband by the Tea baggers and been pillared long ago..
No way she would have ever been elected in 2012. I'm happy for her for not winning. Who would ever want to deal with this disgusting group in congress? I feel for Obama for having to deal with them and trying to compromise. I hope he has learned his lesson.

[DURHAM D]

30. Don't start this shit.

It doesn't matter.

[hyphenate]

32. Well, I would disagree with you

on the one part, but I agree that government would be totally different if Hillary were president. Her devotion to the left was greater and more consistent, and we would never be in this current predicament.

[HereSince1628]

33. I'm wishing Gore had assumed his presidency

but wishes don't even soothe my sleep.

[Liberalynn]

49. +++++100000

Since we wouldn't have invaded Iraq and there would have been no Dumbya tax cuts we wouildn't have this massive debt. Same thing if Kerry had been able to assume office.

But you're right wishing can't change anything. We are stuck with reality.

[cui bono]

104. Wouldn't that be nice to start over back then?

Oh well...

[bluestate10]

108. Would the people that voted for Nader change their vote?

History is history. Screw up the present and assuredly the past can not be undone.

[roamer65]

39. Tweedle dum and tweedle dumber.

You can pick which one would be which.

Their policies would be almost exactly the same.

[cascadiance]

42. I just wish Russ Feingold had run...

I'd kept trying to push him earlier along with others trying to draft him to run. He insisted in wanting to stay in the Senate. And of course now we're paying double for that loss with him no longer in the Senate either.

[Prism]

45. I voted for candidate Obama because I feared Hillary would behave like President Obama

Funny little ironic world we live in.

[Odin2005]

48. There is no substantial policy difference between Obama and Hilary.

[StevieM]

57. I think Hillary would have been a great president and I think Obama has been a great president (eom)

[Maru Kitteh]

61. me too. n/t

[fadedrose]

69. I like Obama, and I think I always will.

He can never be mean, so maybe he won't be a great president. But he is a great man. There's a difference.

[SusanaMontana41]

58. I'm not. Her foreign policy is Bush on steriods. n/t

[Auntie Bush]

67. BS on steriods. nt

[Ikonoklast]

85. Hillary wanted to bomb Iran.

That is NOT B.S.

[Leopolds Ghost]

190. Agreed. n/t

[SusanaMontana41]

185. No it isn't. She's as hawkish as Dubya. n/t

[shockra]

59. Yup.

"If Hillary gave Obama one of her balls, they'd both have two." -- James Carville

[cui bono]

106. LOL. That's what I'm talking about! n/t

[Whisp]

63. no, she wouldn't have. she is awful under surprise and pressure.

angels dancing on the head of a pin sound familiar?

if not, here you go:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tngWyRHIjYU

that was a legitimate question to ask of a politician, conflict of interest. But I suppose that one snuck through and caught her off guard and she is horrible at thinking on her feet. This is presidential material? I think not

[fadedrose]

64. I was thinking this was the perfect opportunity for her to enter the race again

They were saying somewhere on TV that Bill Clinton came out of this on top, because the negotiators were his - 2 or 3, don't recall. None of Obama's staff were negotiating and I think that was his biggest mistake. Lots of groups are saying they won't back him in 2012.

And Hillary did resign, and her supporters are as strong as ever here in DU.

I would feel more comfortable if Obama would, oh, never mind.

[Blue-Jay]

65. It's funny when people accuse Obama of being a DLC stooge.

Because Sec. Clinton (who, btw, is doing an awesome job) was never involved with the DLC.

You dig?

[Demonaut]

70. Really, that magic 8 ball tell you that?...nt

[krabigirl]

74. yeah, she would have been worse.

[fadedrose]

78. Ya, but when Boner cries, she could keep up. Wouldn't that be a sight?

The both of them negotiating crying with hankies and blowing their noses. :O) :)

[Raffi Ella]

80. I've been thinking about her a lot lately too.

I was for her in 08. REALLY wanted her to win after I heard Obama praise Raygun...I just couldn't understand WHY D.U. wanted this nice guy over the bulldog that I thought Hillary would be.

She'd been there and done that and woulda EXPECTED them to do this sort of thing and been ready for it.

Don't come at me with I just hate President Obama either b/c I have been FULLY on on board and voted with enthusiasm for him by the time the general rolled around. and I hardly EVER criticize the man.

but I really don't think he was ready on day one. I don't. Hillary would have told them to go fuck themselves and done 50+1 and rolled OUR agenda through. She's worked for single payer health care reform since the early 90's, there's no WAY she woulda let owning the White House slip through her fingers like President Obama did.

There's NO WAY She woulda let Kennedy's seat go to a fucking Scott Brown.

on and on.

He was not ready.

[cui bono]

107. I'm with you. And I was very much against Hilary as president at the time.

But I want someone to FIGHT! And call out those rat bastards who are purposely trying to destroy the economy for political reasons. She would've been telling us that's what they're doing instead of saying "my friends on the other side of the aisle don't want to do anything bad". BS. They do, they are and they need to be called out!

[Raffi Ella]

172. YES, your frustration is my frustration.

I do believe We, the Democratic Party, made a huge mistake with Barack Obama. After 8 long years of buSh appointment by Supreme Court/Die-bold we needed a bulldog not a capitulator.

SHE would have reveled in the chance to go at them, gone full force with the entire White House at her disposal. Not invited them to dinner! They deserved to be SHUNNED after the buSh years!

I'm just sick at this point over it all. We had a Golden Moment in 2008. I can not believe what it's turned into.

[Middle finga]

82. Who knows, she may have taken a different path than

her husband, she probably knew liberals were skeptical of her, so she may have thrown us few bones to try to win our trust. Where as Obama totally took us for granted, we celebrate if he throw us some crumbs every now and then. And she couldn't have been more right wing than Obama is right now, if he moves anymore to the right he'll be in T-Bag territory.

[workinclasszero]

83. Me too although

Considering her and Bill's (Mr NAFTA) ties to the DLC I don't know that Hillary would have done anything different.

She wouldn't have let those gutless coward rethugs push her around though, agreed.

[DURHAM D]

86. What I love about this kind of thread on DU...

The same people who are now insisting that Clinton is just as conservative as Obama are the same people that were constantly telling us back then that Obama was waaaaaaay more liberal than Hillary.

[Forkboy]

87. I didn't much like either of them.

:P

[whathehell]

91. Yes, I'd say that's correct...Hillary had way more experience, and, I think,

more spine than Obama.

I voted for Obama in both the primary and the general

and I think I made a mistake.

Flame away, if you'd like..I's my perception.

[nadinbrzezinski]

93. Some of us told you that BOTH were center right

:hi:

In fact we used the word neo liberal.

But yes, I get what you are saying.

But no, some of us were not fulled by either.

[mitchtv]

94. very good point, Durham

and she doesn't kiss repub ass

[bluestate10]

111. And the same people that swallow the horseshit that there is no difference

between the democratic and republican parties. And the same people that voted for Nader in 2000 when they had an opportunity to vote wisely instead and change history. Let them wallow in their self imposed pity, I personally have better things to do than get wrapped up in their bullshit.

[Forkboy]

156. "I personally have better things to do than get wrapped up in their bullshit."

As you prove by talking about it all the time lol.

[joshcryer]

124. Oh, yes, it's quite bittersweet. And the Krugman switcharoo.

[lumberjack_jeff]

178. +1000

I guess "fate, destiny and providence" has a grudge against us.

[MadHound]

88. Not that it would have made much of a difference,

One corporate Dem or another.

[emilyg]

89. I never stopped wishing.

[FrenchieCat]

90. We know!

:rofl:

[AtomicKitten]

138. So you weren't fooled by the switch to a Kucinich avatar?

:rofl:

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Yes she would

DLC is DLC

[Zorra]

97. Not voting for Hillary in the primary was probably the biggest

political mistake I ever made in my life.

I didn't vote in that presidential primary, the first time in my life that I did not vote in a presidential primary.

I thought there was little difference between Hillary and Obama.

I'm pretty sure I was wrong.
:(

[rug]

98. "she would NEVER have let the Republicans run circles around her and play her like a fool."

That sentence is the truth. Regardless of whether she ultimately conspired with them, that sentence remains true.

[ClarkUSA]

109. Yeah, DLC Hillary sure showed BushCo when she refused to give them a blank check via IWR!

She was a strident righteous voice for liberal Democrats against BushCo for eight years!

---------

Oh, no, that's right, she wasn't. She never was.

Not once did she raise her voice in protest in the Senate chambers against BushCo's FUBARs. And while she's been SoS, she's sided with Gen. McChrystal in advocating for a 80,000 troop surge for 10+ years.

And she never wanted to repeal her hubby's DADT, much less DOMA. She's always been against gay marriage, too.

Anyone who thinks she'd have been a better POTUS is forgetting history.

[Blue-Jay]

110. Don't mind him, he's always sarcastic or ironic or something.

At any rate, he's waaay smarter than the rest of us, so he deserves some leeway.

[rug]

113. A problem, Bluejay?

[Blue-Jay]

115. No. I'm a big fan.

[rug]

117. Change your noun.

[Blue-Jay]

119. "You're" a big fan?

of yourself?

[ClarkUSA]

121. You got it!

:fistbump:

[rug]

125. That's a pronoun.

Keep trying. Only three more words.

[Blue-Jay]

132. A pronoun is not a noun?

All pronouns are nouns, but not all nouns are pronouns.

*R*ug stepped on his penis. ("rug" is a noun, as is "penis")
He must have a long penis. ("He" serves as a noun - that's what a pronoun is - , and "penis" is still a noun)

[rug]

134. No, it's a pronoun.

And jays are medium-sized, usually noisy, passerine birds in the crow family. In archaic slang it means a person who chatters impertinently and inanely.

I have neither knowledge nor interest in your penis. As you say, I only consider great matters.

[Blue-Jay]

144. Ha!

You're reduced to going after my DU handle? How awesome!

You win, Sir. That was a masterstroke. Devastating. I backed myself into an Epaulette mate. Brilliant, as usual, rug.

[rug]

152. Imagine going after a screen name.

How juvenile. Reminds me of when I was in sixth grade ranking on dicks.

[Blue-Jay]

184. Indeed. Imagine that.

Strange.

[rug]

112. Regardless, she's not been plated a fool.

[ClarkUSA]

114. Neither has President Obama.

[rug]

116. This deal is the work of genius.

I don't think there's a need to return your epithet.

[ClarkUSA]

120. Pres. Obama protected SS and Medicare benefits from any cuts, contrary to many who said he'd "cave".

Who's the "fool"? Not he.

[rug]

126. His term isn't over yet.

Here's a song for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjLP83-KjLk

[ClarkUSA]

136. Never said it was.

<< Here's a song for you. >>

Not interested.

[Awsi Dooger]

127. She dominated the debates

That used to matter around here. But in 2008 the only debates that counted were the 4 or 5 in which Obama clearly bested her. Among what, 25?

Look, anyone elected in 2008 was in huge trouble, given an economy that obviously had yet to drag bottom. But my argument then is the same one I'd make now, that I'd prefer a bulldog Clinton in office when the economy is front and center every day, rather than an unknown upstart. We'll never know but I'm confident she (and Bill) would have used equal or superior judgment 55-60% of the time.

[quaker bill]

128. You are correct

She would never have let the republicans do anything. Second place finishers in Presidential races do not have such a role.

[Luciferous]

129. I'm not a fan of Obama, but I really don't think Hillary would have been any better.

[center rising]

130. Hillary would have handled this a lot better than Obama has.

[Skip Intro]

133. The Health Care Reform effort would have been far more successful.

She would have fought back from day one against the ridiculous attacks from the repubs and the tea party. She wouldn't have waited as long as Obama did, wouldn't have let the bs charges go unanswered. This in and of itself would have led to a better outcome for us in 2010, perhaps we would still have kept the House.

Man, things would have been far different with Hillary. It's not even a question. Blows my mind when I hear a disillusioned long-time Obama supporter say things woudldn't have been different with Hillary. What a show of support for Obama, you know?

[AtomicKitten]

141. She got ZERO votes on her healthcare plan. Couldn't even get it out of the Dem-controlled committee

How 'zero success in actual practice' translates to 'far more successful' is an, um, interesting analysis.

[Skip Intro]

183. Wow, you're not serious are you?

Isn't it a bit insincere to compare an appointed position of heading a task force, almost twenty years ago, to an elected position of president nearly two decades later?

Isn't it also insincere to ignore the bungled health care reform effort of 2009-2010, and the wide berth given the teapartiers and their corp interests to organize and spread misinformation. Had Hillary been president, I think it safe to assume that the fight would have been engaged far earlier, and the outcome likely far different, limiting negative repercussions for the 2010 elections.

[NoodleyAppendage]

137. I Agree. Obama is a Weak Leader. n/t

J

[CakeGrrl]

145. Yeah, the Tea Partiers would have TOTALLY fallen in line under her command.

:eyes:

[cui bono]

163. Never said that. I just want to see someone call them out. :eyes: n/t

[CakeGrrl]

209. I seriously doubt you'll see any POTUS doing the firebreathing.

Even at the height of impeachment, it was Hillary as FLOTUS who talked about the "vast, right-wing conspiracy". You did not hear that from POTUS, and point out where he called out the RW for impeaching him.

So it is with Obama and Biden; Biden is the one who called out Tea Party 'terrorists'.

It wouldn't instill confidence in any leader (I mean global, not DU approval) if they sounded as if they were as embroiled in bomb-throwing rhetoric as others.

[AlabamaLibrul]

146. Unrec

Hillary is a DLC tool

(and I'm not racist so I guess there goes that other thinly-veiled "10%".... because you gotta be a PUMA or a racist to disagree with Obama)

[PufPuf23]

147. With HRC we would have had more and faster aggressive war and less

domestic economic problems.

Both were headed in the same direction with the same neo-liberal ideology.

POTUS Obama and HRC were my last and next to last favorite D's in the primaries.

I favored Edwards because he got rural American and the poor and anti-war more in rhetoric.

Plus I thought Edwards would prosecute financial, war, RICO, and political crimes.

I switched when Edwards dropped and went full out and gave $ and lost friends and posted signs for Obama in my State's primary and the general election.

I knew something was seriously wrong when he started making appointments.

I voted for POTUS Obama to keep HRC and cohorts out of the administration.

Ooops.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

149. Hell, I'd take John Edwards at this point

At least it would be entertaining as we are getting f'd in the a.

[ibegurpard]

154. someone needs to kill this meme dead and put a stake in its heart

Hillary is just as much a corporatist if not more so than Obama

[Creideiki]

155. You realize, of course, that your opinion means nothing on any subject now

If you point to the sky and say, "Look! It's blue!" You'll have the Faithful coming along to tell you that in fact it is orange! And you NEVER REALLY LOVED HIM! (Or his sexy, sexy abs.)

[cui bono]

164. Kinda like my vote in the presidential election. n/t

[The Doctor.]

168. "DLC Clinton"?

Really?

[zanana1]

170. Hillary would have been a "Republican-Democrat".

She would have caved into anything the Pugs wanted. That's why I didn't vote for her. She's weak.

[zanana1]

171. I'm volunteering for the OBAMA campaign again.

I went to my first meeting last week. I didn't think many people would show up, but there were alot of people there; some of them hadn't volunteered the first time around. I think the idea that Obama is unpopular now is overblown. Don't listen to the damn media.

[Arkansas Granny]

174. Why even bring this shit up. Didn't we have enought Hillary bashing during and after the primaries?

To try to compare what you think she might have done with what Obama has actually done is just counter productive. We don't know what Hillary would have done and we'll never find out.

[lumberjack_jeff]

177. The last forty years are a story of wrong choices.

Americans can be counted on to do the right thing, after they've exhausted all the alternatives - Churchill

Sadly, there's an infinite variety of wrong things to choose from.

[jpak]

179. Horseshit

yup

[chrisa]

181. Clinton-Bush-Clinton

No thanks! :thumbsdown:

[TNLib]

212. More like Bush-Clinton-Bush-Clinton

nt

[Unvanguard]

189. Me too. Neutral during the primaries, but I think now Clinton would have been better. n/t

[MilesColtrane]

194. "she would NEVER have let the Republicans run circles around her and play her like a fool."

You mean like when she was in charge of Health Care Reform back in 1993?

[inna]

195. amused by this thread; not as if the Clintons are any sort of lefties, to say the least....

but it is simply a matter of public record at this point that Obama is massively to the right of theirs. :shrug:

[Raine]

196. I wish I had supported her. Hillary never pretended to a liberal

at least I would've known that I wasn't getting a liberal president.

[Le Taz Hot]

200. There's no difference

between Obama and Hilary. We would have had the exact same outcome.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

202. incorrect

one difference is that you now would have had 80000 more troops in afghan with a 10 year plan enacted if Hillary was pres.

[Township75]

203. I can see people are giving you a ton of shit for that comment, but..

I have no problem with it. I don't agree with it, but I don't have a problem with it. You can think as freely as you like.

Who knows how it woudl have turned out.

[upi402]

206. jesus

:facepalm:

no wonder we're fucked

[Taverner]

208. Not me - would have been same shit, different channel

Honestly, we're fucked

Stick a fork in it, its done

[TNLib]

211. I kind of do too. I'm not sure she would have done better.

But at this point I have buyers remorse.

[Fire1]

213. S.O.S. and more lies. n/t

[Scurrilous]

214. While we're on the subject....

Tim Gunn: Hillary Clinton Dresses Like A Man

http://gothamist.com/2011/07/29/tim_gunn_hillary_clinton_dresses_li.php


:P