I say don't raise the damn ceiling.

[DLnyc]

The choice is:
A: give in to Tea Party/Republican blackmail, cutting the hell out of all basic services sending us into a much deeper recession, not to mention more firmly establishing the precedent that the nut-cases can get anything they want because we're afraid to call their bluff
or
B. Just don't raise the damn ceiling, causing the stock market to crash, interest rates to skyrocket and sending us into a much deeper recession -- but at least in this case it's clear the rethugnicans are to blame and the pattern of giving in to blackmail is broken.

In other words, we're fucked if we give in and we're fucked if we don't -- might as well take the hit now instead of signing up for an endless series of blackmails not to mention the insane policies of giving more tax breaks to those at the top and squeezing those of us who are barely surviving even harder.

Forget the 'negotiations' which won't produce an inch of movement. Our position should be bring a pure vote on the debt ceiling or else just don't raise it. And then we'll see who wants their name on the first default in U.S. history.

[Devil_Fish]

1. We don't negotiate with terrorists. NT

[Uben]

2. Those are not the only choices

The president has other options available, if necessary.

[DLnyc]

3. Do you mean 14th amendment action?

I agree, that would be better than these ridiculous 'negotiations' which just keep moving the goalposts further into nut-land. But I'm not sure an executive order to raise the debt ceiling would work so cleanly. Presumably there would be a blizzard of court challenges, so I'm not sure the effect on the markets would be a lot different then just not raising the ceiling.

[dkf]

4. Well you can raise the debt ceiling, not address future spending, see a downgrade in our credit

Ratings and see some bad ramifications anyway. The debt ceiling isn't the issue anymore because we assume it will be done eventually. The real issue is if we cut enough of the deficit to keep our AAA rating. .

[DLnyc]

6. I think the real issue is how we cut that.

Bad way: keep the obscene top-level tax breaks and estate tax breaks and corporate mega-loopholes, cut the hell out of services regular people need.

Good way: raise the top tax rates back to what the were under Reagan, put the estate tax back and cut corporate give-aways, keep the current (minimal) level of services.

Bad way kills the economy, good way helps it.

Although this is a simplification, the point is these are key issues that are NOT EVEN BEING DISCUSSED in the current 'negotiations'.

Eventually your back is against the wall and you just can't pay the ransom any more!

[dkf]

7. Getting rid of the Bush cuts is the only tax increase that will pass because it doesn't need to pass

Other than that good luck.

[DLnyc]

9. Yes, exactly

We can't get what we want (and what is the more reasonable, survivable option). So in a normal world we might compromise: some correction of the tax imbalance and some cuts. But in this bizarro world we're being asked to give them all of what they can't reasonably expect to pass (all cuts, no revenue) and at the same time accept NOTHING of what we perhaps can reasonably expect to pass without compromise.

Call their damn bluff, I say, and pay the whole price now instead of getting cut to death over a period of months.

[dkf]

11. I want to know why we are asking for $1 trillion in revenue when we've got $3.8 just in the distanc.

What a stupid fight to hang this all on.

[Waiting For Everyman]

5. That's the truth of it.

[liberal_mama]

8. I agree in a way

Let these assholes destroy America and pay the consequences. There won't be another repuke elected for a century while the dems try to rebuild our country.

[Control-Z]

10. You forget?

The fuckheads always find a way of turning the blame back on us.

[DLnyc]

12. Say the demand was a straight vote on the ceiling.

If they refuse to bring that vote, it's hard to say the Democrats caused the crisis.

If the call the vote, and vote party-line Republicans against raising the ceiling, Democrats for, that's hard to spin whose fault it is that the ceiling didn't go up.

It was stupid to tie the ceiling to the fantasy of working out a grand compromise on budget policy. It's even stupider to continue 'negotiating' when the Republicans have only move further toward the nut-base.

Maybe the best thing now is:

"We want a straight-up vote on the ceiling. You won't give us a straight-up vote, then the ceiling doesn't move."

[Control-Z]

14. I do think it's time for

Obama/Dems to call for a clean bill, and nothing more. They can negotiate with us. Well, they can try.

But I know how good they are at the blame game and it worries me. There is never a true win when dealing with them.

[jwirr]

13. It is too late to do that. If he gives in now when the ball is in our court

we will be blamed. The only option we have is to win or lose it all (2012 election).