Can someone explain why we have "liberal arts" yet there is no such thing as "conservative arts"

[madinmaryland]

What the hell would conservative arts consist of?

[Recursion]

1. Oddly enough, liberal arts programs are a haven of conservatives...

For anyone curious, it comes from the Roman belief that grammar, rhetoric, logic, arithmetic, geometry, music, and astronomy (the seven liberal arts, strictly speaking) were necessary to being a libero, or free human being.

Librarians and curators could be said to practice conservative arts, I suppose. As would people in conservatories; in all cases they are conserving a tradition of some sort.

[Bluenorthwest]

18. Ah, the word you are looking for is 'conservators'

Those who see to archives and the like are not called 'conservatives' in English.

[Recursion]

20. Right; my point was the term "liberal" in liberal arts is equally unrelated to the political term

Liberal arts curricula are in fact attacked much more from the left than from the right.

[WinkyDink]

28. Let's see some support for that claim.

[Recursion]

32. Which claim?

You can't seriously be saying that the academic left hasn't seriously attacked traditional liberal arts education, can you?

[Recursion]

33. Dupe

Buggy today...

[Search and Destroy]

36. Are you being serious?

Please tell me you're not being serious...

[WinkyDink]

27. How do you figure conservatives love logic, e.g.? Or music?

[Recursion]

34. I mean the people who still say that kind of education is relevant are nearly all conservative

This is what Bloom and Bennett and Strauss and all those guys are pushing for.

And WTF? What kind of self-congratulatory BS is that to have convinced yourself conservatives don't like music?

[LooseWilly]

44. What do you mean 'that kind of education'?...

It sounds like you're convinced that it's still the Renaissance and the 'conservatives' are still railing against the "witchcraft" of Mathematics, as practiced by John Dee, or the "heresy" of Astronomy as practiced by Giordano Bruno...

Business Administration does not involve as much study of "Liberal Arts" as it does involve study of Mathematics and Statistics and probably some sort of Discreet Mathematics in order to manipulate statistics...

Peace and Conflict Studies, on the other hand, tends to be a lot more willing to venerate the "Liberal Arts", if nothing else just in order to use such things as rhetoric in arguing for a change of societal paradigm.

Ohh, and just because conservatives might be willing to steal Bruce Springsteen tunes for a rally doesn't mean that they like music... though when a conservative begins to extoll the virtues of Ornette Coleman to me maybe I'll rescind that judgement.

Feel free to post some links of these Bloom, Bennett & Strauss that you speak of... but I doubt that I'll see evidence that they espouse a "Liberal Arts" education over a more marketable science & business & medicine & law education.

And that is the true mark of a "Conservative Art"... marketablility. If it makes money it's a Conservative Art... and even more so if it conserves the monies of those who already have piles.

[Recursion]

46. "these Bloom, Bennett & Strauss" that I "speak of"?

Have you really never heard of them? And you're bothering to talk about conservative education theory?

Here's a start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Bloom

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leo_Strauss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bennett

And, hell, for good measure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortimer_Adler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saul_Bellow

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_F._Buckley,_Jr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Silber

Every single one of them pushed very, very hard for liberal arts education against the wishes of liberals in academia, because it was at the expense of "identity" studies (which even I who support them have to admit are contrary to "liberal studies" despite being politically "liberal").

Business Administration does not involve as much study of "Liberal Arts" as it does involve study of Mathematics and Statistics and probably some sort of Discreet Mathematics in order to manipulate statistics...

Where to start? Business majors take very little math, usually a few hours of stats and if they're doing an economics-heavy course some diff eq. I haven't seen a program that required discrete mathematics ("discreet" mathematics would be mathematics that doesn't mention it when you forget to do the homework). Even in electrical engineering (my field) you rarely take discrete unless you're very heavy into signals, comm theory, or info theory (which I was, so I did; most of the class was comp sci people). Business majors have a lot more requirements in liberal arts than in math.

just because conservatives might be willing to steal Bruce Springsteen tunes for a rally doesn't mean that they like music... though when a conservative begins to extoll the virtues of Ornette Coleman to me maybe I'll rescind that judgement.

What elitist bullshit. People of all political persuasions love music, and make music. Johnny Ramone? Gene Simmons? Leann Rimes? Old Blue Eyes? (Hell, Mike Huckabee? He's actually a pretty decent bassist.) That's just on the popular side; I know several working pianists and hornists (those are the classical circles I mostly deal with) who are very conservative.

And that is the true mark of a "Conservative Art"... marketablility. If it makes money it's a Conservative Art... and even more so if it conserves the monies of those who already have piles.

That's either an even bigger stack of bullshit, or a uselessly narrow definition of "conservative". Conservatives also have dreams and feelings and aspirations and use art of all kinds to express them. Making a caricature of people we disagree with is not a good thing.

[LooseWilly]

49. Well, if "liberal arts" is going to be strictly defined as the study of Socrates and Plato...

then we can acknowledge that it is conservatives pushing them... because Socrates and Plato were so thoroughly, historically speaking, co-opted by the "conservative" force that is the Catholic Church.

If the "Liberal Arts" is expanded to include literature, poetry and especially comparative literature... and English and Comp. Lit. are generally considered to be "Liberal Arts"... then it isn't so "conservative" as you seem to want to paint it... because a Comparative Literature course of study which includes something like a survey of Japanese writers is no longer a course of study "at the expense of 'identity' studies" as you put it.

On the other hand—if you insist on using the definition provided by conservatives, then you come up with a selection acceptable to conservatives.

And, by the way, your cited conservatives all extoll the virtues of the Greeks and seem to feel that they are & should continue to be the be-all/end-all of philosophical underpinnings of... stuff... which does make them "conservative" but hardly makes them the "only ones promoting" a Liberal Arts education. Unless, of course, you have surreptitiously adopted their definition of what constitutes a "Liberal Arts" education.

As for your dig about discreet {sic} math... I took it for comp sci myself and it was so heavily stat and probability that it seemed a vague guess of a stat class for business majors (and forgot it had a "special" spelling... alas). Not giving a shit about business, I am not well versed in which stat classes they take.

Is that really one of the main thrusts of your argument?

Fine... let's just use Haas business school at UC Berkeley as an example that replaced what was once a campus hospital in order to make space for a well-funded business school.

It's listed here: http://www.sbcc.edu/counselingcenter/counselingquestions/files/Haas%20UCBerkeley%20Guide%205.25.10.pdf , that there are 2 required math classes for Business majors, in addition to the semester of calculus prerequisite for the econ requirements (not to mention the possibility of more math req.s for the physical and bio. science "breadth" requirements...).

Meanwhile computer science also requires 3 math classes... one of which is the first semester of calculus (1A)... and another, of course, is discrete math : http://ls-advise.berkeley.edu/major/compsci.html

In contrast, a chemistry major is burdened with 4 math classes... one of which is also that first semester of calculus (1A) and another of which seems to be our friend discrete math: http://chemistry.berkeley.edu/student_info/USLI/chemistry/#core

So... looks like Business Administration majors, in fact, generally take about as much math as some "hard science" majors... as opposed to your glib "couple hours of math"... which is closer to what a Peace and Conflict studies major taking a "physics for poets" class does. And while we're at it... a course in Midieval Lit, a Chaucer course and a philosophy course (bound to include fucking Greeks) is no more "Liberal Arts", by your Greeks/Scholastics definition of "Liberal", than the number of math classes... not counting any of the science or history... let alone the money-grubbing business shite.

Heh... though I did find this amusing: "What elitist bullshit. People of all political persuasions love music, and make music." I think you forgot to mention Ted Nugent... and perhaps Vanilla Ice... and if any of them are musicians then this is also music : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_M2HCwPSnnM
... except that it wouldn't be considered so if "conservative standards" were applied to the definition of music.

Hell... let's really get "liberal" in our definition of music, why don't we? Try to listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubjgisuitDw ... you might even "enjoy" it.

In fact, you've now convinced me... conservatives "love music, and make music"... I'm sure the Republican House would be eager to pass a bill acknowledging of the wonders of the Towlie song posted earlier in this response... because they "love music, and make music"... which will happen at any time and thus prove your point.

In fact... I'm sure that conservatives will soon be soon be doing so because "Conservatives also have dreams and feelings and aspirations and use art of all kinds to express them. Making a caricature of people we disagree with is not a good thing." ... that's why conservatives are such big supporters of the National Endowment of the Arts, right? ("Republicans' Budget Solution? Kill the NEA and Other Arts Funding, Of Course" http://www.artinfo.com/news/story/36785/republicans-budget-solution-kill-the-nea-and-other-arts-funding-of-course/)

Maybe you prefer being an apologist for people that "we" disagree with?

Or... maybe you aren't "we" at all... and you agree with those that "we" disagree with... and you're just a "wee" bit defensive?

[liskddksil]

2. Lee Greenwood

[Greybnk48]

3. Indoctrination to maintain the status Quo of the moment.

An aversion to free thinking and new ideas.

[onenote]

4. artes liberales

artēs līberālēs: works befitting a free man


Like many words, "liberal" has more than one meaning.

[obxhead]

5. They do have conservative arts.

It's called law school.

[HopeHoops]

6. A canvas that a bunch of Repukes flung their own poo at.

[BobbyBoring]

7. Conservative Arts=

Con Jobs????????????

They've managed to con a lot of Americans in to believing shit that's demonstratively not true...........

[ET Awful]

8. Ewwww, if you have conservative arts, you end up with

Thomas Kinkade

[madinmaryland]

19. LOL!!

Good one!!

[sinkingfeeling]

9. I think we do. It's called a 'business college'.

[October]

14. Agree. /nt

[buddysmellgood]

10. Conservative arts involves derivatives.

[Speck Tater]

11. Art is the creation of something new. Conservatives fear anything new. nt

[KamaAina]

12. Same reason we don't have conservative thinkers

it's an oxymoron (or an OxyMoron, if you will).

[Bragi]

16. I'm not sure this myth is helpful

The idea that conservatives do not have "thinkers" is a myth that I don't think really helps our side win any converts.

Conservative thought needs to be understood, analyzed and challenged.

Denying that conservative thinkers exist is a head-in-the-sand approach to political discourse.

[loyalsister]

21. Absolutely

I am very conservative when it comes to my personal finances, turning off the lights to save energy, and minimizing waste.
It is a positive thing that my "liberal" friends are also concerned with "conservation" in the sense of not being wasteful with resources that we will need in the future.
I think those words are understood way too narrowly.

[Doctor_J]

30. I'm way more conservative than Limpballs

I've never been bankrupt, never been on welfare, am still married to my first wife (32 years), and live on a budget.

But I think that public school and gay marriage are good for the planet, so I am a pinko

[WCGreen]

25. Well stated, Bragi, well stated....

[October]

13. MBA = Conservative Arts /eom

[guitar man]

15. I dunno

Donnie and Marie? :shrug:

[Gold Metal Flake]

17. Because conservatism kills.

[meow mix]

22. "one nation under god"

http://www.mcnaughtonart.com/artwork/view_zoom/?artpiece_id=353

:puke:

[bemildred]

23. "Liberal" was not always a dirty word.

"Conservative" used to be a political view and not some sort of shibboleth/dogma.

[Ferricadouzer]

24. Etch A Sketch

[Xithras]

26. The "liberal" in Liberal Arts has nothing to do with politics

In fact, it's one of the oldest continually existing degrees, and can trace its roots back to the "liberalia studia" in the Roman Empire.

The "Liberal" in Liberal Studies refers to the classic definition of liberalia, which simply meant "open", "free (as in rights, not cost)" or "inclusive". Again, this had nothing to do with people or politics, but refers to the curricula. A regular student attends post-secondary school to attain a vocational degree, a technical degree, or some other degree specific to a particular trade. The Liberal Arts wasn't traditionally focused on a trade (though nowadays it's focused a bit toward teachers), but were the degrees that were pursued by the free elite who didn't actually have to work. It was the degree that would be pursued by leaders in business and government, and would include everything from philosophy and poetry to music, math, and science. Liberal Studies majors didn't specialize in anything, but instead got a little bit of everything. This gave them enough knowledge to rule, govern, or run a business, and have at least a basic understanding of everything that their underlings were doing, while also providing the background education they needed to survive in polite society.

There are a lot of conservative Liberal Studies majors on my campus.

[boppers]

42. Thank you.

The madness of people using words, without understanding them, drives me bonkers.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

29. Conservatives are not creative.

They are scared of anything new and different, like art/music/drama etc.

[JHB]

31. Steve Wright? Is that you?

Cross country skiing is great if you live in a small country.

For my birthday I got a humidifier and a de-humidifier... I put them in the same room and let them fight it out.

How young can you die of old age?

I have the world's largest collection of seashells. I keep it on all the beaches of the world... perhaps you've seen it.

I intend to live forever. So far, so good.

I poured spot remover on my dog. Now he's gone.

I saw a subliminal advertising executive, but only for a second.

[Taverner]

35. Conservative Art is an oxymoron nt

[madinmaryland]

37. Heh! And conservatives are just morans.

[Recursion]

47. That would surprise Saul Bellow (nt)

[Taverner]

48. I wouldn'r really call him a Conservative

Yes, he had Conservative leanings. So did Jack London, and he was a Socialist.

But out and out Conservative? Mark Halperin is the closest they got - and he sucks. Just not as bad as others.

[firehorse]

38. They already have the finance arts...

[Nailzberg]

39. MBA programs.

[Cleita]

40. Eh, most conservatives aren't that talented or that

smart.

Really, I don't know. It sounds good though.

[PurityOfEssence]

41. liberalism is exploration and acceptance; conservatism is rote, so it would be rendering, not art

Conservative art would be painting by numbers, which is not really art, but rather a decorative craft.

Liberalism is based on the self-effacing nature of open exploration, whereas conservatism is based on rigidity and the personal need to be not only unquestionably right but holding the gate against the barbarians. Art is based on the free-ranging exploration of possibilities, not the cocksure certainty of authorized baubles.

'Nuff said.

[patrick t. cakes]

43. School of the Americas.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_of_the_Americas

Conservatism can't create, only hinder and destroy.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

45. Conservatism is about being outer-directed.

In the common political vernacular. Conservatism is allegiance to outside institutions: Church, flag, obedience to authority, conformity. The individual is not wanted to question or form their own ideas. They must take in what they are taught and act in a certain way, supporting those values.

Liberal arts are about taking in the great concepts of Western Civilization, as are traditionally taught in college, and then using your own mind and imagination to think about "What was this artist trying to say in this picture? What emotions were these composers expressing in this piece of music?"

And if you are creative, then you go within and bring forth your own creative poetry, music, musical performance, painting, or whatever.

I graduated from a liberal arts college that was so liberal I got a Bachelor of Arts in a Natural Science.

I went on a job interview back in 1979, and the male interviewer asked me why I did not get a B.S., implying that a B.A. was an inferior degree, or that I was too stupid to get a B.S. (I'm female as well, so that was probably part of it).

I told the man, "Trinity University only grants a B.A. in Biology and it is the best pre-medical school in the state of Texas. At this time they do NOT grant a B.S. in Biology."

He of course did not accept that as an answer. Idiots don't listen to plain English. :banghead:

Another chapter is the guy down at a NASA contractor across NASA Road 1 from Mission Control who thought it was his mission to show me how ignorant i was about physics and science. Fortunately I answered his questions and he stopped after two times. Thus not proving his point that 19 year old secretaries don't know anything about science.

[McCamy Taylor]

50. Country western music, obviously. And dogs playing poker. And "Atlas Shrugged."

[eShirl]

51. conservative arts might be anything involving food preservation, for example jam-making.

also something like landscaping to prevent erosion

[Drew Richards]

52. Silly Wabbit there are Conservative Arts,,,it's called WAR College

[dionysus]

53. dupe

[dionysus]

54. how to clear cut a forest, or dump chemicals into a river?