I keep hearing about how anders breivik isn't a "true" Christian

[Search and Destroy]

By definition, isn't one a Christian if they believe that Jesus was the son of God? So aren't the "true christian" people really arguing that you cease being christian if you sin?

[Warren DeMontague]

1. Here it is, in a nutshell:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

[KittyWampus]

71. So there's no such thing as a "True Liberal"? LOL! So many DU'ers fling the words DINO around.

[Warren DeMontague]

88. No, there isn't.

And it's even more applicable to something like a "Christian". A Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian. Period.

[hifiguy]

129. +1

And yes, it's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy that the apologists are spouting. And it is still a logical fallacy.

[mindwalker_i]

2. Don't they always say that?

Gee whiz, he believes all the same stuff but we don't like what he did. He's not really one of us.

It's the p**** excuse of them all.

[OHdem10]

3. People say anything to protect the Right.. To think a person

from the Right and on top of that a Christian, let
me clutch my pearls. I am being sarastic.

It is the same thing when the Klan does something.
Klan Members are often the biggest church goers.
They profess the chrisitanity openly and carry
their bibles.

[Ferret Annica]

4. Makes sense to me. Christians have a violent history and have destroyed many cultures...

in the name of their religion. That's what the Doctrine of Discovery was for.

It is a faith concerned wth social control and domination of others every bit as much as the good stuff in it.

I'm not impressed with it.

[cali]

11. oh for fuck's sake. If you said anything similar about Islam here, you'd be jumped on for being a

rank bigot. Christianity is a large multifaceted religion- and the vast majority of Christians like the vast majority of Muslims are simply people going about their lives.

[Ferret Annica]

14. I have nothing against anyone's religion....

... But s a Wicca practitioner, I know Christians killed many people like me HISTORICALLY. I know the Doctrine of Discovery and it's offshoot viewpoint concerning racial superiority, 'Manifest Destiny' was used to wipe out many indigenous people and their culture.

And the beat goes on in the Buddhist Temples desecrated and vandalized in South Korea by overzealous evangelicals there. Who also vandalize Hindu shrines and temples in India.

I have many friends in Portland who are Muslim, and that religion is too concerned with promoting itself at the expense of others too.

And Israel just banned calling for boycotts of settlers who violate the human rights of Palestinians which is an act contrary to any good democratic principles.

I believe in religious tolerance and freedom, But I know of the checkered history of many religions; particularly those that are too aggressive about conversions.

http://ili.nativeweb.org/sdrm_art.html

[cali]

19. Oh bullshit, you don't practice any fucking form of religious tolerance.

[Ferret Annica]

21. And your opinion is because...?

I am of Wicca and we believe people can reach a higher plane through most religions. I have a Mormon brother and many in my family are Roman Catholic.

I was forced to go to Catholic church and study Christianity even though I can honestly say I never even remotely believed in that faith.

I also experienced bigotry against me for having Wicca on my dog tags in the U.S. Army.

You are free to believe what you want, but don't just attack, give a reason for your opinion.

I don't mind sharing and discussing this topic, but I can't do it if you just attack just to attack. ;)

[Mimosa]

24. Who forced you to go to Catholic church?

The Catholic church couldn't force you, Ferret, so it must have been your parents.

I haven't been a practicing Catholic for a loooong time, but I am grateful I had the advantage of a catholic education and being able to attend Catholic church sacraments. My parents almost never attended church but allowed my sisters and I to make informed choices about religious and educational matters.

In my youth and through the decades I've been curious about matters of aith and have known people of all religions. No faith is actually monolithic. People often shape their religions to suit their needs.

If any idiot is going to claim the Norwegian mass murderer Anders Breivik somehow represents 'Christianity' they should then logically say Major Nidal Hassan represented Islam. (He believed he did.) Are you sure you want to go there?

[mr blur]

29. You mean DELUDED People often shape their religions to suit their needs. (nt)

[Ferret Annica]

35. Christianity, Islam, and Judaism were created by man to suit our species' needs

Your point cuts both ways.

[Behind the Aegis]

42. So was Wicca.

[Ferret Annica]

55. And you feel this is something that is a revelation to me?

I have always felt religions were mankind's manifestation of their half of the interface with the Goddess. ;)

[Behind the Aegis]

58. It very well may be.

[Ferret Annica]

59. Indeed; believe what yoi want, discuss what you want,

or take my views to task all you want. I don't feel threatened by your views, in fact I welcome any lively discussion on this or any other issue. Cheers. ;)

[Behind the Aegis]

61. Nor am I threatened by your views or illogical remarks.

Your 100 year old religion is just as prone to bigotry as others, so it is best not to broadbrush other religions.

[Ferret Annica]

62. There is that little old ad hominem thing again...

... as we can most certainly debate the actual age of Goddess based religion and why a reconstitution of a rubbed out religion was necessary, and impossible to suppress by the old practice of burning people as witches and by the use of various tools to co-opt aspects and things about my religion.

It's much older then a century, and I am not a nudnik who became a Wicca practitioner overnight.

Also, I spoke of problems with Zionism which date back to Israel's friendship with the Nationalist party in South Africa, and how they helped that government skirt sanctions against it concerning arms and other material. As an activist working the Apartheid issue, that is where I first started to see things I did not like seeing happening in Palestine.

I have been a political activist for many years, and actually respect Islam and Judaism both. And I read much about both, but I would never pretend to know it as well as someone who belonged to either faith.

And I am happy to go into specifics and to move away from the broad brush of generalities if this is what you feel more comfortable doing so.

[Behind the Aegis]

83. Your posts are sorely lacking.

First, look up ad hominem and use it correctly. I did not attack your character, nor did I say it invalidated your opinion.

Second,I didn't say Goddess-based religions, I said WICCA. This is something you have done in almost every post; moved the goalposts or changed the setting. The first was conflating Judaism and Israel, the second was questioning me about anti-Semitism when the topic was Israel NOT being a religion, and now this. Wicca is not older than a century, do not think the several shelves of books I have on the subject have gone unread. Most "witches" who were burned, were not witches.

I will not address your anti-Zionism propaganda. This thread is not about this and is yet another red herring.

As for the swipe about my knowledge, I was practicing Wicca, almost 20 years ago and did so for several years, and continue to read about it. I know more than you think.

[Wait Wut]

127. Excellent.

I see Wicca as the "Catholicism" of Paganism. I couldn't handle the zealousness of most Wiccans, Dianics, etc. There was a lot of religious bigotry. The claim that Christians killed so many of "us" without the acknowledgment that "we" killed a lot of "them" is arrogant and self-righteous. Wicca is just another organized religion with a bunch of books telling people how they should think.

Pagan is simpler. We just don't give a damn.

[greyl]

102. "species"? Absolutely not. Particular human cultures out of thousands. nt

[Ferret Annica]

34. I distinctly remember rejecting Christian religion at a very early age.

I fought going to Catechism and objected to being labeled Catholic at the Kindergarten/1st grade portion of my life and going to church and listening to this indoctrination was a test of my patience and I was very grateful to get large enough to stand up to my Mother and tell her "enough" when I was 13-14.

My feelings were so strong I remember the biggest joy of doing Confirmation was that the pressure to conform to this faith would abate and I would regain my freedom from it.

My earliest recollections of opinion of the teachings of the new Testament was this was a load of crap. I have since then tempered my opinions into respect for others. People have a right to believe in fictional; figures like Jesus and I respect that. but I never for a moment believed that person to be a real, historical figure.

I very strongly and unshakably believe these religions, Judaism, Christianity, Islam and others were invented my man to help with socialization and the problems involved with creating civilization.

They do not respect all life and allow the world to be degraded and defiled by greed and I feel it blasphemy to the Goddess to destroy forms of life and to disrespect the right to other species of plants and animals to live and flourish.

I also believe Cetaceans are intelligent lifeforms just as capable of language and culture as the species-centric humans are.

I very strongly and profoundly believe mankind will someday get out of the religious cradle and find real religion that respects all life and recognizes the need for hominids such as us to live in a biological niche -- unless we continue on our journey of destruction and defilement of this planet.

You have a right to your religion, but I have been prosecuted and suffered for my interpretation of the truth and my religious paradigm is set in stone and I have no desire to worship at your alter or that of any other of the current religions.

As far as Breivik and Major Hassan go, they are criminally insane and not representative of the faiths they claim to profess. They reject the good parts of their faiths that will outlive them when mankind evolves socially and ethically beyond them.

You may not agree with me or even like my religious take on things, but you did ask.

[SwampG8r]

70. all good except the cetaceans

i spend a lot of time in and on the water here in florida in an area rich with sea mammals
i would rate the average cetaceans i encounter (pilot whales, several dolphin species, the occasional right whale )as clever but not much more clever than a smart dog
in fact i find a barnyard pig much more intelligent than your average sea mammal
as to their communication ability its more like the alarm cries of gibbons they do not share more info it seems than "here is food" or "here is danger"
they are a lot of fun to hang out with though
thry love to get in my wake and surf behind the boat
funny stuff and at least they arent a bunch of autoeroticists like manatees are (or as we call them here "speed bumps")

[Angry Dragon]

104. I hope you were kidding about your last sentence

[SwampG8r]

117. yes a common florida waterjoke

[backscatter712]

20. My problem is with all religion...

So much destruction and death happens over arguments about which magical sky daddy has the biggest penis.

[Behind the Aegis]

25. You do realize "Israel" is not a religion, right?

Perhaps you are confused.

[Ferret Annica]

37. You do realize that not supporting Zionism is not anti-Semitism I hope.

There are many Jewish folks that don't like it and advocate against Zionism, and the numbers of members of this religion who do so will continue to grow unless Israel heals itself of hatred and intolerence.

Israel has a real problem with intolerance and hatred of their Muslim brothers and sisters currently. With the oppression of Palestinians and moves like not allowing judges to rule on bad law or allowing people to organize boycotts of settlements build on violence and theft, this nation drifts toward fascism much like the one that so foolishly sought to destroy them from the face of the Earth.

I see the Farmhouse in Orwell's satire 'Animal Farm.' And the oppressed looking in through the windows see only oppressor as the animals blurred the humans and pigs together as being much the same sort of creatures.

I have long supported Israel and hate the injustice of the Shoah, but this dos not give anyone like the Israelis the right to become too much like those they justifiably hated and loathed for the injustices they did to them.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Behind the Aegis]

80. Irrelevant nonsense. And doesn't answer the question.

[Wait Wut]

124. As a former Wiccan...

...and current Pagan, I know "my people" killed plenty of Christians, as well. It does no good to lump all people in a group into one stereotype.

Folks is folks, no matter what label they fall under or claim.

[WolverineDG]

33. thank you nt

[cherokeeprogressive]

13. Don't be offended if I ask you to name which "cultures" have been destroyed.

Thanks in advance.

[Ferret Annica]

The Spanish had what is called 'the requirement'

which was a legal announcement read to Aztec and Taino Indians -- and others they encountered -- that in their language told them they had this one chance to declare loyalty to their crown, religion, and various trappings of Western Civilization. And if they did not accept this (and usually they did not understand what was being said) then the Spanish were self considered to be blameless for what mis-fortune befell them.

http://ili.nativeweb.org/sdrm_art.html

Read for yourself. Read about the Pequot War, the French and Indian War, The Sand Creek Massacre, Wounded Knee, the trail of Tears (which judging by your nick you should know about) and see how the U.S. Army and colonial fighters were very much into wiping out anything not of their culture.

That's just here in North, South and Central America. Africa, Asia and people in Europe suffered from violence and intolerance of people who felt Christianity was undeniably better then anything else as far as religions go.

Christianity and Islam did not get big because they were just and the best religions, they just were and can be ruthless and violent in their methods of spreading their faiths.

As I said, I believe all religions should be respected and tolerated, but people should also study history and current world situations concerning religions and not look at a faith like Christianity as not having had it's problems, or without them today.

Look at the way the brotherhood -- a coalition of U.S. Religious Evangelicals work to kill and harass gay, lesbian and trans gender people in countries like Uganda where they used influence to try to get laws against these normal human sexual and gender variations of people.

I would never tolerate doing to Christianity or Islam any of the worse things that have been done in the name of these faiths, but I am going to remember that they have their faults. As any religion developed by humans have always had.

[Ferret Annica]

16. double

I hate comcast -- double

[Ferret Annica]

double

double

[Ferret Annica]

17. double

double

[FourScore]

5. The bigger question is this:

When Muslims say Muslim extremists are not true-Muslims, the Christian Right don't buy it and claim all Muslims are dangerous terrorists. So how can they say that Breivik isn't a true Christian? They can't have it both ways.

[sakabatou]

6. They're just using the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

[Blue_Tires]

77. +1000

The next spin will be that he wasn't a "true" RW conservative, either...

[MADem]

7. Well, if to be a "true" Xtian one must follow the rules, he pretty much screwed the pooch

when he blew off that "Thou shalt not kill" one.

Of course, if you're going to go by those rules, there probably aren't a helluva lot of "true" Xtians wandering about.

[bluesbassman]

8. You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. James 2:19

You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? Matthew 7:16

Sin does not cause you to cease being a Christian. Not being a Christian in the first place is more likely Breivik's condition. But that's not a human call to make. He'll be judged for his actions, Christian or not.

[SwampG8r]

9. was he a true christian? only god can judge

my opinion as a christian is probably not
"as ye do unto the least of these so also do ye unto me" is right out of jesus mouth
so if a definition is needed i will defer to his
i realize this entire OP is just a denigration of christianity
you do not cease being a christian if you sin

[cali]

10. I think what people are saying when they say that is that he isn't representative of Christianity an

I accept that just as I accept that Muslims who commit similar acts of of murders and terrorism aren't representative of Islam.

[Union Scribe]

28. I think that's a good interpretation

I hate it when people try to score points on whole groups of people when one of them does something horrible.

[AlabamaLibrul]

12. K&R

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. So the gist of your post is an attempt to tie him to "true" Christians?

You're point is that this monster MUST be a "true Christian"?

You go guy.

[Ferret Annica]

23. This guy was no Christian

Give me a break; he is a hateful loser who used that faith for his own ends.

[Search and Destroy]

46. No, the gist of my post is that there is no such thing as a "true" christian

There is Christian (you believe Christ is the messiah and the son of God), and there is non Christian (you don't). The phrase "true christian" was invented to shirk responsibility.

[Kennah]

18. Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius.

Perhaps a true Christian woulda used a sword and a bow?

[Ferret Annica]

22. interesting quote:

"Kill them all. The Lord will know His own."

I like people that do the right thing because they are convinced that is the only way to operate in the real world. Anyone who just doesn't kill rape pillage and burn out of fear of what a god will do is someone I don't necessarily consider a moral person or good.

There are many really great Christians and Muslims out there. But with all due respect, I will never buy into their faiths. I am not angry or vengeful unto hatred merely because of the bad pennies in their ranks.

It has cost me to not give lip service to the Roman Catholic church, or any other Christian entity, but I feel compelled to be honest in stating my beliefs.

And one of my strongest beliefs is I may not agree with what a Christian or Muslim believes, but will defend to death their right to do so as Voltaire is believed to have said.

[U4ikLefty]

26. He certainly wasn't a true Scotsman.

[Critters2]

118. !

:rofl:

[divvy]

27. You are Christian if you say you are .... there are NO other requirements

It is so simple that a cave man can do it. Just say you are and PRESTO ! Another ass-hole goes to heaven.

It is FAR more difficult to be a member of other religions.

[noel711]

30. I disagree and I'll tell you why...

To be a Christian, the church (who are the overseers of the faith,
according to tradition- be it the Roman Catholic church, the various expressions
of Orthodoxy, or the manifold expressions of protestantism)

proclaims that the sacrament of baptism is the door to being a Christian.
ANd most of these churches expect some sort of cathechesis before the
rite (either the baptismal candidate herself or the parents of the child)-

The catechesis involves what the life of a Christian entails, and it
certainly isn't 'do what you want.' Involved in most baptismal
expectations is the promise to be involved in the life of the congregation,
to learn, and study the christian faith and tradition, and in my particular demonination:

"to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ in word and deed,
to serve all people in the example of Jesus,
and to strive for justice and peace in all the earth."

It isn't an easily taken promise; yes, there are some loose, free churches
that'll baptize anyone (the garden hose variety baptism), and whatever happens,happens,
but there should be oversight and accountability.

No, just saying it doesn't hack it.

IRonically, and I don't mean to start something here, to convert to Islam,
one must subscribe to the Five Pillars of Islam. the First Pillar is the
Shahadah, a confession in Arabic to another Moslem that proclaims faith in
One God, and that Mohammad (bless his holy name) is the true prophet.
All ya gotta do is say it... and you are a Muslim.

[divvy]

52. Sorry, but your argument is limited to Orthodoxy

Take a look at your average Pentecostal church. There are NO requirements to be the preacher. Just call yourself one and you are good to go. Likewise, to be a Christian, you only need to call yourself one. Sorry, but that is reality and not some monastery experience lived by only a few.

[noel711]

60. Go ahead, speak for pentecostals..

I addressed that by my comment about 'firehose baptisms.'

The exception does not change the fact that the CHurch has been
setting the standard for almost 2,000 years.

Pentecostals don't invalidate our teaching.

Calling yourself a Christian doesn't make you one.

Or else I'm a 21 year old millionaire supermodel.

Just checked the mirror: didn't work.

Monastery experience lived by a few?
You need to get out more,
get to know some liberal Christians,
many of us are out there in the trenches,
many of us have advanced degress,
many of us work with the poor and homeless.
Many of us live in the inner cities.
Monasteries? right.

Many of us take seriously the call of Jesus to
feed the poor, take care of the elderly,
visit those imprisoned.

[divvy]

75. Lets try the acid test which is more to my point.....

Read this short essay on the Christian Identity movement and tell me if they are christians. If so, or if not, then for what reason(s)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/cr_ident.htm

If you need something more, then please try this wikipedia reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Identity

So, are they Christians?

[divvy]

53. duplicate

The same reply posted twice

[Arugula Latte]

91. "to proclaim the good news of Jesus Christ in word and deed" -- UGH

That explains the door knockers trying to convince me this nonsense is true.

It's so obvious it's all mythology. I'm amazed at how many people still buy this snakeoil.

On edit: Applies not just to Christianity. All religions are based on man-made stories created a cosmic second ago. The universe is billions of years older than these fairytales.

[WinkyDink]

63. Not quite. And CERTAINLY not in Roman Catholic Christianity.

[hlthe2b]

31. If he had self-identified as a Liberal Progressive American Democrat....

would you likewise argue with those who would say he wasn't really a "true" Liberal Progressive Democrat, as he did not espouse the tenets held by liberal progressive democrats? Do you not argue with most here that those who espouse RW views, though claim to be Democrats are DINOs?

But, a "nice" way to smear countless millions of kind compassionate (and yes, liberal) people across the world who actually hold to the beliefs and tenets of Jesus--as opposed to those who would claim the mantel while promoting a bastardized and opportunistic viewpoint of that religion.

I'm an agnostic... but I strive to be fair.

[Critters2]

119. Well said. Thank you. nt

[SidDithers]

32. Christians don't kill people...nt

Sid

[Bragi]

65. They have done so throughout history, and still do /nt

[Arugula Latte]

92. Hmm, tell that to the victims of the Inquisition & the Crusades & Salem witchhunt

and natives of colonized countries and untold victims of Christianity the world over.

[BiggJawn]

36. Well, at least they aren't trying to make an Atheist out of him.

Like they do that Schicklgruber guy.

[Taverner]

38. The way I see it - he was a Christian. So was MLK

Far be it from me to judge someone's self identification

[kestrel91316]

39. He was a CINO. Kinda missed the parts about "Thou shalt not kill" and

"Love thy neighbor as thyself".

But go ahead and use this opportunity to denigrate ALL followers of Christ. Tarring everyone with the same brush is a time-honored tradition of the anti-religious.

[Fumesucker]

43. Eh, I would say that tarring with a wide brush is a time-honored tradition of humans..

A long and proud tradition that is upheld by almost all of us at one time or another.

[LeftyMom]

47. But he totally got "I came not to bring peace but the sword."

There's a bunch of stupid, violent shit in the new testament and it can be used to justify all sorts of deviant behavior. Sure, people can ignore that stuff in favor of the stuff about being decent to each other, but those are the people who'd manage to be decent to each other in any case.

[Search and Destroy]

50. Sinning does NOT make you not a christian anymore

The ONLY requirement for being a Christian is the belief in jesus as the messiah and the son of God. How you behave is irrelevent to the label itself.

[Peacetrain]

40. You can call yourself a turnip.. does not make you a turnip

Being a Christian means you have to accept the two great commandments.. there is no way around it.. All laws are drawn from those.

So killing 90 plus people is not a Christian, no matter how a person wants to try and paint themselves.

Using Old Testament values like an eye for an eye is not a Christian value because in the New Testaments, it is turn the other cheek.

I could go into depth that an eye for an eye is about appropriate justice for the people of that time..but that is best left to experts in the Torah and prophecy books


But Christians are far and few between, because most who claim to be Christian gravitate to passages in OT to try and get around the teaching of Christ in the NT

I am a Christian, but on my best day of days I am working hard at it.. I have never attained it.

[upi402]

44. comparing apples and oranges a bit, I think

Some religions require certain things. Christianity just requires that you accept Christ as the your favorite savior above all the others. If you state it, it is so for you - and nobody can read your mind.

[LeftyMom]

48. That would mean that in two thousand years of Christianity there were almost no actual Christians.

Please google "no true scotsman fallacy" and spare me the trouble of explaining just how goofy an argument that is. Thanks.

[Peacetrain]

56. You finally understand and did not need to ingest that famous haggis

You can call yourself anything you want to.. does not make it so. Christianity has two great laws. If you do not accept those.. you can jump up and down and piss up a rope, and call yourself the third coming (as many have done).. does not make it so.

Accepting those two laws, tough thing to do, and the best any one will ever do is work hard at it.

So if you accept there is no other God and to love all others as yourself..

You cannot kill 90 people and claim to be a Christan.

It don't work that way.

[LeftyMom]

67. Oh for pity's sake.

What a crock of shit.

[Peacetrain]

69. Oh I get it...you get to define what a Christian is

But a Christian does not get to define themselves..

A Christian does not have a defining set of rules to judge behavior that fall in the perimeter of what their stated belief is.

A Christian cannot state, those types of things done in the name of Christ are not Christian ethics.

A Christian is supposed to accept abhorrent behavior just because some said I am a Christian.

Behaviors that go 180 degree opposite of the 2 major commandments they are taught to work through their lives with

Yeah that works :crazy:

[Bluerthanblue]

74. your perception of what a Christian is

and mine are pretty much the same.

If indeed everyone were to embrace the commandment to love others as love themselves, what a different world this would be.

The fact that they don't, is no excuse not to keep trying to do so.

:hi:

Jesus did say to those who claimed to be followers "get away from me, I never knew you". People who'd no doubt call themselves "Christ"ians" today.

[LeftyMom]

79. You know the rest of us read you guys' rule book too, right?

Atheists tend to know it a lot better than Christians, actually... So no, you don't get to argue from authority. Sorry.

Christian churches have been trying to distill all that contradictory codswallop down to succinct statements of faith for ages, and none of the typical statements about what underpins Christianity (the Nicene Creed, the Apostle's Creed, etc) appear to contradict what he believes.

Again, you keep asserting that his violent actions mean he's not a Christian, but Jesus' words through the new testament use violent imagery and he is at times depicted engaging in violent action (such as against the moneylenders in the temple) or promising future violent action (the second coming) so there is no reason to define violent people out of Christianity except that it pleases you to do so.

[SwampG8r]

73. he is right its from jesus own lips

i always give what jesus actually is recorded saying precedence

from luke chapter 10 or 11 near the end

[dawg]

109. No, Peace Train is exactly right.

You can't truly accept Christ if you reject most of everything he ever taught. You might think you have accepted him as your savior, but if your true desire is to judge others, exalt yourself over others, and to cause harm, then you have accepted nothing but your own selfishness.

[Angry Dragon]

105. Christianity is not a religion

Catholic is a religion
Lutheran is a religion

Christianity is a state of mind ............. and you would judge a person's mind??

Where are these laws stated that you quote??
They come out of a book that the catholics put together??
That seems to me that is the catholic religion and not the Christianity state of mind


Are you saying that a belief system has to have rules??
That would mean that one has to prove their beliefs ........ something that religions fight all the time

[trotsky]

113. Christians themselves don't even agree on the "two great laws."

What does it truly mean to love your neighbor? Or for that matter, who IS your neighbor? Entire bookshelves have been filled with musings on those very questions. So while you insist that your interpretation of Christianity is the only true and correct one, just like the religious fundamentalists of all stripes do, there are millions of people who apply the label "Christian" to themselves that disagree with you.

And neither of you can prove the other one is wrong.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

131. Killing 90 people could make you a Christian.

Psalm 136:

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against stones. (King James Version)

They didn't have guns back then, but the idea is the same:Kill lots of children.

[Cerridwen]

45. It is easier to distance oneself from the actions of others

as not part of ones belief system, than it is to question what it is in ones belief system that enables such actions to be attributed to ones belief system.

[fujiyama]

49. I am kind of sick of hearing this defensive measure

from members of all religions when someone kills people in the name of their God.

The simple fact is that Breivik considers himself a Christian, just as Osama considered himself to be Muslim. All members of every religion should seek tolerance and respect for other beliefs. If those two ideals are not followed by any member of a respective religion, they are in turn helping create an atmosphere where more hatred and in turn more violence is created. Not every racist is a KKK member or violent, but their tacit beliefs kept lynching rampant for decades in this country.

[PurityOfEssence]

51. It's based on the unfounded bigotry that religion is "good"

and thus, anything "bad" can't possibly be springing from the belief. It's a form of moral aristocracy that's widely accepted: a person who's devout is obviously good, and by inference better than outsiders.

Nuance is the enemy of certainty and simplicity, and many believers consider even the mention of such a thing to be a direct threat. Having one's superiority and right to dominance questioned is persecution.

Obviously, many believers understand the dangers of such thought and don't subscribe to it, but many others demand to be considered automatically "good" and "better" regardless of actions, and to be absolved of any actions of those of the faith that aren't up to snuff.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Breivik HIMSELF says that he's not very religious

He uses Christian to mean Non-Muslim European.

[Critters2]

120. Interesting. I hadn't read this. Thanks. nt

[slackmaster]

57. His multiple acts of murder are inconsistent with the version of Christianity that I was taught

I stuck with the church into my late teens because a lot of attractive girls were in the youth choir, and have never given up some of the moral teachings.

[WinkyDink]

64. One can be a Christian while breaking its tenets, just as one can be a Democrat who......

Heh.

[KittyWampus]

72. Yup, I've started using the phrase "No True Democrat" when this nonsense crops up.

Good many of those who insist anyone who calls themselves a Christian IS a Christian would bend over backwards explaining how just because Zell Miller was a Democrat it was DINO.

[Critters2]

121. +1 nt

[Bragi]

66. The problem isn't "insufficient religiousity" it's religion itself /nt

[LanternWaste]

68. I believe the argument is predicated on the perception

"So aren't the "true christian" people really arguing that you cease being christian if you sin?..."

I think no; I believe the argument is predicated on the perception that in giving one's hart to Christ, one becomes a Christian-- that being something no one else can possibly be aware of, and must then take the acceptance or denial on faith of the person claiming it. The belief that someone else is a Christian is then further built on both the person's statement, and that person's acts and deed-- which would either strengthen or weaken the claim.

As to what a true Christian is... just saying so doesn't make it a so. Regardless, it makes little difference to me whether the individual was a Christian or not as his episode was hardly indicative of church tenets.

[WildEyedLiberal]

76. Was Joe Lieberman a "true" Democrat?

Was Osama a "true" Muslim? If Christians are to be tethered to their most odious extremists who by their actions refute everything they claim they stand for, is the same true also of adherents of other religions, or political parties?

[Critters2]

122. Apparently so. nt

[Octafish]

78. He's a feminized mama's boy, by his own admission, is what I've heard.

Oh, yeah. And welcome to DU, Search and Destroy. What's the story behind your handle?

[KamaAina]

81. "No True Scotsman"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman

No true Scotsman is an intentional logical fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion. When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim, rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original universal claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it.

Origins

The term was advanced by philosopher Antony Flew in his 1975 book Thinking About Thinking: Do I sincerely want to be right?.

Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the "Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again." Hamish is shocked and declares that "No Scotsman would do such a thing." The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, "No true Scotsman would do such a thing."
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking
A simpler rendition would be:

Alice: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Bob: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Alice: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.
When the statement "all A are B" is qualified like this to exclude those A which are not B, this is a form of begging the question; the conclusion is assumed by the definition of "true A".

[AlinPA]

87. You nailed it.

[KamaAina]

82. Hitler wasn't, either

or so I am told. :eyes:

[timtom]

84. Give it up, already!

You're going down a rabbit trail.

[LynneSin]

85. Many folks who say they are 'christians' really are following what paul did

Paul came after Jesus and was probably the first fundamentalist. Much of his teaching more aligned with the old testament and NOT jesus. You can google about this for more details

[Taverner]

86. Agreed

You can't pick and choose your followers

You can only pick your nose :)

[roomfullofmirrors]

89. I'm actually an alien who hails from the Pegasi sysytem. It's true because I said so.

we Pegasians all look just like humans. I came here to see a Jimi Hendrix show back in 1969 and now I'm waiting on a ride to see his next set of shows over near the Betelgeuse system. The man you know as Elvis Presley will be opening. It should be a good show. I also have a 12 inch penis incidentally. That's also true because I said so.

[krabigirl]

90. I get SO tired of hearing that phrase...

[RagAss]

93. I never met a "True Christian".

[11 Bravo]

94. No more that Mohammed Atta was representative of "true Muslims".

[nomb]

96. Atta had people with him, directing him and following him - and when he was done he was hero to many

Big difference with our lone killer. Fuck religion yes, but I fail to see the moral equivalence here.

[pitohui]

95. i haven't heard anyone say he wasn't a "true" christian

i've heard his entire motive was to somehow stir up hate of islam, which is certainly a goal of some of the more racist extremist branches of christianity

[Angry Dragon]

106. bill o'reilly said today

That a Christian would never kill anyone

[JackRiddler]

97. Are you a Marxist if you believe Karl Marx existed?

As someone born into a Christian church and an atheist since around the age of 12, I urge you to acknowledge the relative complexity of categorizing several billion people. You're surely aware that there are many Christian churches and that they've been at war with each other at times and that many of them consider other churches to be apostates.

But in modern societies there are furthermore at least four broad categories of "Christian" based not on church or sect, but on individual behavior: 1) Those who believe in the teachings of the Christ as their moral guide in life; 2) Those who emphasize belief in the magic parts of the story like resurrection and eternal life as though these were literal facts; 3) Those who are culturally and usually chauvinistically "Christian," who may not even go to church but nevertheless dislike Muslims and other non-Christians; 4) Those who are lip-service Christians from childhood and remain so to get along with their society, and who don't think very much about it, but would never renounce it.

As far as I am concerned, believing there was a Christ and that he was the son of God who resurrected after death etc. etc. has nothing to do with being a Christian.

You are a Christian if you follow the teachings of the Christ as given in the Gospels.

You can be an atheist and a Christian. As long as your moral inspiration for action in this life comes from the Gospels, it doesn't matter if you think their literal content is sheer fairy tale.

If you love your neighbor as yourself and share with those in need (BECAUSE of the teachings), then you are a Christian, in the same way that a follower of Marxian theory is a Marxist.

If you murder a thousand people in the name of Christianity, you are not a Christian. (You are also not a democrat, or a socialist, or a peacemaker, or whatever other nice name you may want to claim to cover up your crime.)

Again, this covers a minority of self-professed Christians. Also, I am not a Christian.

[Search and Destroy]

98. No, because Marxism isn't based around the belief that Marx is the son of God

Christianity is.

[JackRiddler]

99. Now I understand your username...

Nothing suggests that you read my post, only the title. Are you only here for the combat? Why bother.

Christianity is not the belief that Christ was the son of God.

The Jesus character is almost certainly a fiction. I mean the so-called historical one, let alone the magical one who is supposed to be the literal "only son of God"

However, you don't have to believe in either, historical or magical Jesus, in order to follow the teachings. If you follow the teachings, you are a Christian. If you don't follow the teachings, you are not a Christian, even if you believe in the literal existence of the magic son-of-god Jesus. The Gospels are very clear on this. Doesn't matter what the Pope or Pat Robertson say.

By this definition, if you murder 90 people in cold blood, you may be a "Christian" as various churches define it, but you are not a Christian as the religion's only authoritative text defines it.

[Demeter]

100. "Amen"

I find that the only "christians" I've met had no truck with any organized "Christian" church.

[txlibdem]

115. Pie Jesu Domine, dona eis requiem.

Your post is pure truth. I was raised as a Baptist, went agnostic for 40 years before needing the crutch of belief in Jesus and a higher power. I have absolutely zero trust in any organized religion. Look at the opulence the Pope lives in, the multi-million dollar money collection facilities (aka the churches in your neighborhood). I've visited a number of Shinto shrines and Buddhist temples: they are equally ostentatious so someone is raking in cash and using it for their own aggrandizement. Christian churches have more gold on display but the Shinto shrines are fantastically architected: I highly recommend you visit one, the craftsmanship is so impressive.

When I was a teenager I promised myself that if I ever needed the crutch of Christianity (or other religion) that I would begin believing again. When I became disabled and weeks later my wife had a miscarriage I reached a point where I needed something to cling to that would help me through this tough time. That was close to 3 years ago so I'm not advocating anyone follow my path or my example. You must do what is right for you.

But I certainly will never "belong" to any organized religion. I believe in God and Jesus his son because that is how I was programmed early in life. I also like Buddhism, Shinto and Judaism but one would have to be a part of their church before fully absorbing their culture/teachings so that's out of the question for me. IMO, if any human claims to have all the answers about origins and the only path to enlightenment then I know that person is a fraud and probably a huckster.

[dawg]

110. But surely you don't think a business owner ...

who ruthlessly exploits his workers for large profits, votes republican, and is obsessed with amassing a fortune, could actually be a real Marxist because he likes to call himself one?

If your personal beliefs and actions are opposed to a teacher or philosopher, it doesn't make you a follower of that philosphy, even if you happen to think the philosopher is now a magical cloud-being who can grant your wishes.

[dawg]

111. I don't think the 9-11 bombers were true Muslims either.

Their beliefs and deeds were inconsistent with the teachings of the religion.

[Search and Destroy]

116. Does sinning automatically make one not a christian?

[Duppers]

101. well, even Sam Harris didn't think so

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/christian-terrorism-and-islamophobia/

Surprise.

[greyl]

103. Interesting! nt

[Angry Dragon]

107. This is an enjoyable thread ..............

[octothorpe]

108. I always disliked those "...wasn't a true XXX because true XXX don't do that sort of stuff" lines.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. As I already posted, Breivik himself says that he's not especially religious

He uses "Christian" as a synonym for non-Muslim resident of Europe.

This is similar to the way a Long Island acquaintance of mine in the 1970s used "Christian" as a synonym for Gentile.

[trotsky]

114. Strange that someone "not especially religious"...

would "pray to God as (he is) rushing through (his) city, guns blazing" or would "pray to God for strength ... during that operation". Or express his wish that he "be allowed to enter heaven as all other martyrs for the Church in the past."

[Critters2]

123. He claims in his own manifesto that he is not religious, and considers

religion "a crutch for the weak". Who ya gonna believe? Him or him?

[trotsky]

125. Well I guess the thing we need to take away here...

is that OBVIOUSLY only a non-believer could do something this evil. That's what everyone means to say, isn't it?

[Critters2]

128. Where did I use the word "non-believer"? I said he doesn't claim to be religious.

Honestly, if you read the manifesto, he sound pretty Nietzschean, claiming Christianity makes a person weak. Still, doesn't claim to be an atheist, and I never said he did. Here's a surprise-- a guy who blew up a government building and shot 70+ teenagers because of their political views, expecting a revolution to begin in his wake, seems confused. Trying to argue that he's coherent in any way is probably not going to find a lot of support in the facts.

[trotsky]

130. Don't worry, you're as clear as can be.

I know what's being said.

[TheBigotBasher]

126. It isn't a true christian

it is however a true Republicant,