Blow it up, blow it all the fuck up

[MadHound]

Seriously, I'm tired of this death by a thousand cuts. The 'Pugs threaten to do something crazy, and Obama and the Dems give in. No public option, tax cuts and more tax cuts, spending cuts and more spending cuts, and now, here we are, looking at cutting into Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

Screw it I say, let the debt ceiling expire, blow it up. If we cannot get a truly progressive solution to our debt problem, blow it the fuck up.

I'm tired of watching our country, our countrymen die a death of a thousand cuts, and I've been watching this happen for decades now, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, on and on.

Blow it up, let us crash and burn, and rebuild something better out of the ruins. Instead of being tortured for years and decades, let us get it over with quick, let's pull that band aid off. Then we can rebuild something better. All empires have gone through this at one time or another, now should be our time.

[fascisthunter]

1. THAT'S the problem.... they do want to blow it up

so THEY get to rebuild.

[MadHound]

7. Who says THEY get to rebuild

There are, in reality, a remarkably small number of the rich and well off, certainly not enough to prevail in such a scenario, at least not entirely, and certainly not to the level they control things now. Think Germany post WWII.

Same thing with conservatives, expose their views for the madness that they are, and their numerical inferiority will be backed with with a complete lack of credence.

[fascisthunter]

9. I Hope so, because it is going to happen

and nobody is stopping it, in fact they are doing the opposite.

[Drahthaardogs]

19. Newsflash

Rich people can AFFORD to pay the people who have GUNS to be on "their" side. How many times does a coup lead to peace and tranquility? Almost never, they lead to the wealthy and corrupt paying off the violent and mighty, the weak and the poor suffer further.

The more I see of this stuff, the more I become a Second Amendment proponent.

[MadHound]

21. And when the stock and bond markets collapse,

Where is their money then? Oh, yeah, disappeared, gone. And that leaves the formerly rich just that, formerly rich with a lot of people pissed off at them.

Remember, it is the upper ten percent of this country who own over eighty five percent of such investments. If it all collapses, all that paper money is worthless, just marks on a paper, gone in the wind.

[Drahthaardogs]

26. History supports my position, not yours.

If we fall, SOMEONE has to control the military, whoever controls the military will hold the power and the money, whatever that may be. They will be jealous, as all the rich are, and they will kill the poor and crush the weak to maintain a new lifestyle. It does not matter WHO rises to the top, be it the current wealthy or a new class, they WILL be wealthy once they have the guns. Education, education, and more education are our best hopes. It worked for Europe.

[MadHound]

29. If you're using Europe as an example, you certainly don't know your history.

European history is replete with crashes and rebirths, starting with the Roman empire and running all the way through the Dutch, Spain, Britain, the French Revolution, and Germany, to name a few.

[Drahthaardogs]

65. I know my history very well

and Europe was replete with misery until the masses became more civilized and more educated. Chaos does not serve the masses well, it is times of peace that common men and women find their lives become better.

[MadHound]

122. And what time of peace are we experiencing now?

Umm, we've been involved in one war for ten years, two wars for eight years. In the past fifty years we've been involved in over a dozen major wars, and innumerable small "actions".

Pray tell, what is this peace you speak about, this civility?

[Drahthaardogs]

126. There is no peace, has not been, will not be in the foreseeable future

The thought that somehow, total anarchy is going to benefit the common man, it is ludicrous. The end result of 99.9% of all revolutions is a new despot is installed that turns out to be just as bad as the old one...most of the time they truly are a "revolution" because the populace ends up exactly where it started. I hope we pass the debt ceiling. I hope people become more educated. I hope the UN quits using our military as the police force for the world.

[sendero]

62. I don't think..

.. your history includes a country with a well-armed peasantry like ours.

[fivepennies]

70. We may be "well armed"

but our weaponry is pretty pitiful when compared with what the elites can bring to bear against us. Our best weapon would be a well INFORMED peasantry and a widespread general strike. Of course they wouldn't take that sitting down. But if their elite military forces stood down we'd have a better chance. Would they? I'm not counting on it.

[SDuderstadt]

74. "elite military forces"

You mean the same military forces that are under the command of President Obama?

[fivepennies]

77. Yeah, like he knows

what's really going on on the ground in all the countries we're beating the crap out of. All he knows is what the people who really run the wars tell him and they pretty much do whatever the $%@$ they want. Like lose 12 trillion dollars in Iraq.

[SDuderstadt]

81. "they pretty much do whatever the fuck they want to to do"

Do you have any sort of proof of that and your claim that the military "lost 12 T in Iraq"?

[fivepennies]

87. Billion. In cash.

I stand corrected. And that was just between 2003 - 2004. A drop in the bucket.

Ever heard of Henry Waxman?

The mercenaries are by far the worst, though, I will grant you that. And they cost you more, too. But we have oodles of money to launder and waste.

[SDuderstadt]

95. How does one confuse a billion with a...

trillion?

[fivepennies]

99. "A billion here, a billion there...

and pretty soon you're talking real money." Sen. Everett Dirkson

He was such a comedian that he injected this into the congressional record:

"As I think of this bill, and the fact that the more progress we make the deeper we go into the hole, I am reminded of a group of men who were working on a street. They had dug quite a number of holes. When they got through, they failed to puddle or tamp the earth when it was returned to the hole, and they had a nice little mound, which was quite a traffic hazard.

"Not knowing what to do with it, they sat down on the curb and had a conference. After a while, one of the fellows snapped his fingers and said, ‘I have it. I know how we will get rid of that overriding earth and remove the hazard. We will just dig the hole deeper.'" .

But he was so old timey. Its a new day now and we've gotta learn to think bigger holes.

[SDuderstadt]

100. Everett Dirksen never confused a billion with...

a trillion.

[dionysus]

118. why SDuderstadt, maybe math's just not their game. i know, how about an outrage contest?

[SDuderstadt]

119. Why, dionysus!

I didn't know you was in town!

[dionysus]

120. SDuderstadt , i am rolling. oh. and leave the shotgun over they-ar

[SDuderstadt]

121. Barber!

Proceed, suh!

[eilen]

128. You can see how effective a general strike is by

looking at the prison strikes. In which an enslaved population sits down and won't work. Of course, it was barely whispered about in the media and there were prisoner deaths, beatings etc.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/dec2010/geor-d13.shtml

Currently there is a hunger strike in California prisons.

The reason why I cite prison strikes is because they are people without rights, radically decreased self determination and without a voice or representation.

Sound familiar?

[fivepennies]

139. True enough

although I wasn't thinking about private for-profit prisons (or any other kind), the horrendous US incarceration rate that's probably half made up of kids who smoked a verboten herb often makes me think of the Bastille. But its possible the prison strikes might have turned out differently if the guards had gone on strike, too, as it wouldn't really be 'general' otherwise. It could turn out bad, or it could be even worse than it was, we just don't know.

I was mostly thinking of the military and police that could be called out to quell a nationwide general strike wondering if law enforcement people would throw down their weapons and join in the strike, not that it's going to happen or that I am calling for it. But yeah, there was that point made in the declaration about the right of the people to alter or abolish destructive governments and the military and police are people, too.

So whether to continue this slow drawn out destruction by yet another obscenely high debt ceiling or by defaulting is a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. I'd just like to know how many of us, like the OP, are sick to death of this long drawn out bleed-out and want to try something different. Who knows what would happen on the other end of a default or a general strike, we've never tried either one before. In the end I guess it would come down to whether we're civilized enough to do something like that without some idiot thinking its a license to kill everything in sight, and maybe even to help out their neighbors who aren't able to help themselves through the bad times.

My biggest fear in a total breakdown scenario is the possibility that they would shut down the grid and other infrastructure like they've done in so many foreign wars which seems always to be aimed more at disabling the populace than the military opposition. And you have to wonder, would a government that makes its people so dependent upon it and its cronies to fill basic needs like water if they didn't plan to use that dependency to keep the people from fulfilling that phrase in the declaration.

Sorry, I'm rambling.

[socialist_n_TN]

145. The police AND the MAJORITY of the military

are working class. They CAN be reached.

[Drahthaardogs]

102. Well armed?

The most we could ever hope for in such a situation would be guerrilla-type warfare, i.e. sniping at long range with hunting rifles. I am in the Army, have you SEEN what modern military equipment can do? It is every Bubba redneck's wet dream that one day he will stand against our government with his red man, banana handkerchief, and his .308 loaded with Winchester Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, but that is fiction.

[txlibdem]

133. Police have installed a grid of computer controlled microphones to pinpoint the location of shooter

The military has a Humvee-mounted unit that sends out microwaves at just the right frequency to affect the water just under your skin, makes you feel like you are on fire from head to toe.

A private contractor builds a crowd control device that essentially shoots a blast of air strong enough to toss dozens of men backwards and into the air.

Night vision goggles, the military heads-up display to identify friend or foe and display enemy position with precision, the tanks with armor made of ceramic and depleted uranium (impervious to small arms fire), etc.

We cannot fight against our own military. The only hope we have is to ask them to please not shoot at their brothers and sisters. The military is built up of lower and middle class people, not the psychotic rich, and we may be able to bring them to our side (especially since the rich and their conservative puppets vote to cut veterans programs every chance they get).

Our military and our police are *our* brothers and sisters. I don't want to shoot them and I can only hope that they will understand that if they are told to shoot us then that is an illegal order and the Military Oath that they swore too prior to putting on that uniform requires them to disobey an illegal order. They swore an oath to defend Democracy and they may need to be reminded of that.

If you know anyone who is in the Military or Police, please let them know that there may come a time when they are asked to side with the rich against the citizens and that they must disobey that order, they must side with the citizens who actually pay their salaries and whose people they belong to.

[fivepennies]

164. They have all these neat killing tools ...

so why have they been losing to a bunch of tribal warlords and taliban living in caves in Afghanistan for the past ten years? With all that fancy hardware you'd think they would have been able to wrap it up in "days not months" and they'd have had Unical's damn pipeline built by now.

Why can't they knock Gadaffi out of power instantly? Why has Iraq become such a quagmire?

Looks like they're either bragging about their capabilities or they're saving all the good stuff up for us because they have to know sooner or later Americans are going to stop co-operating.

Another thing, if there's a default, WHERE will the money come from to pay their loyal troops? Money wouldn't be worth anything, would it? And who would accept it for so much as a can of soda and a hot dog anyway if they're shooting at other Americans?

Or maybe they'd bring in foreign troops, but the same thing goes. They won't fight for free.

[txlibdem]

177. We can only hope

If TPTB have a plan to overthrow the country, the most likely scenario is that they mobilize all the American troops overseas then use private brown shirts like Blackwater (now called Xe). Will any of them accept payment in the form of "you'll have a place of power in the New Order?" We hope not.

And don't believe the Faux News line about our "incompetent" troops. Remember that it's the Generals who send them to an outpost at the bottom of a valley surrounded by mountains where there are a million sniping points. Who's losing these wars? It sure as hell isn't the troops on the ground. They are the ones paying the physical and psychological cost but the Generals and the Capitulator-in-Chief get the "glory" when our young men and women turn a pile of sh*t into gold.

Iraq? You mean Bush's war where we sent troops in without flack jackets, with zero vehicles hardened against mines (or IEDs)?

I'm going to stop now because, as a non-wartime veteran, you have pushed one of my buttons.
:patriot:

[SDuderstadt]

178. What nonsense n/t

[txlibdem]

179. Not sure which of the half-dozen points I made are "nonsense"

It's easy to write a two word post of condemnation. Please tell us DUers what is nonsense and why you feel that way.

[SDuderstadt]

180. How would...

"TPTB mobilize all the American troops overseas"?

Please.

[txlibdem]

181. Where are most of our troops now?

How did they get there?

[SDuderstadt]

182. Jesus...

how would "TPTB" mobilize them? Are you suggesting that American military commanders would participate in an overthrow of the United States government?

This is getting silly.

[txlibdem]

183. Praise Jesus and pass the ammunition

What would they know when they are thousands of miles away "fighting the terrorists?" Military commanders do what the CIC tells them to do. It would be trivial to keep them occupied. That's all we're doing today. What, exactly, are we accomplishing in Afghanistan? Propping up a corrupt and thieving government that most Afghanis hate, where Hamid Karzai's brother is the largest drug kingpin in that part of the world? We've changed out the top leaders of the effort how many times now? That is how you keep the brass and the soldiers focused over there instead of over here.

Why are we *really* in Afghanistan?
Trans-Afghan pipeline wins support, security key
By Marat Gurt
ASHGABAT | Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:11pm IST
... from http://in.reuters.com/article/2010/12/10/idINIndia-53482820101210


Unocal proposed building the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline to congress in 1998
... from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCbsLrdETcw

[SDuderstadt]

184. Thanks for the non-answer n/t

[txlibdem]

195. You're no Huckleberry. You're no Huckleberry at all! (n/t)

[fivepennies]

186. I didn't mean to push your button.

I was only skimming the surface with those comments and agree with you that these wars were never intended to be fought and won any more than Viet Nam. And no, I don't blame the troops for any of what's gone on for the past 40 plus years worth of wars (other than for participating in the fraud), and I for damn sure don't believe the 'we decide you shut up and listen' idiots on Faux about anyfriggingthing.

The possibility of Xe being the bringers of mayhem and death here at home in the ptb's final run up for total power is all too real and they're all over the middle east gaining hands-on experience on the best methods of brutalizing and torturing innocent civilians as we speak. Too many people still think that could never happen here when just looking at the the evidence of stacked coffins in Jesse's documentary begs the question: just when and how do they plan to use them. But how much of the human degradation and pain these mercenaries inflict everywhere they go is based on money and how much of its just the sickness inside them is what is scary.

I don't put much of the onus on the capitulator in chief or congress anymore, other than for the fact that they knowingly cover up for the people who order and profit from these ongoing invasions. Washington DC is a side note, children playing dress up. They are owned and operated by the MIC and Wall Street and the Pentagon and that's where their orders come from. We don't get to vote that bunch out.

So what's left?

[txlibdem]

196. We agree on all that, except the identities of TPTB

They're not the MIC or the Pentagon. Those are just more puppets whose strings are being pulled the same as the CIC and congress. I haven't narrowed down the true nemesis we refer to as the PTB but I am quite convinced that their dominance started centuries before any of the institutions we now have.

Is it mere coincidence or just a red herring that most of our Presidents have been members of the Skull and Bones Society?

[fivepennies]

198. Layers upon layers

to protect the real powers of the world, which as you say, goes back thousands of years.

I have a sneaking suspicion that between the two of us we could probably get this thread taken to the woodshed if we started naming names, at least if anyone was still paying any attention to it, because there are so many people at the bottom of the heap who think its their duty to protect those at the top.

I tend to look at the hierarchy like this:

The plantation owners - the 5, 7 or 13 (depending on who you're listening to) extended families that own and rule the world.

The plantation managers - members of international organizations, committees, councils and secret societies like Tavistock, Bilderberg, CFR, the Trilateral commission, BIS the World Bank, IMF, the UN, the international bar association, OPEC ... hundreds (maybe thousands) of them, interlocked over generations to direct the overseers of each nation to their own advantage. Skull and Bones seems to be uniquely American, but I couldn't swear to that. Our joint chiefs and pentagon hierarchy are plantation managers, far less interested in national security than in promoting and protecting the plantation owners from the rabble on the world's streets. Even "above board" appearing organizations like the international Chamber of Commerce fits into this category and the highest echelon of the chamber is most likely active internationally and nationally in more than just one of the "power centers", secret and otherwise.

The overseers - all elected and appointed officials of individual nations across the world, right down to the local bureaucrats and regulators of each one. Judges at every level are overseers. Local chamber of commerce organizations and NGOs are especially helpful to the plantation managers.

The house slaves - the professionals. Lawyers, lobbiests, college professors, teachers, all major business owners, the entire insurance - pharmaceutical - health care industry, union bosses and their inside circles, power company owners - communication company owners - news and entertainment industry owners and their inside circles - I've probably left out more than I've included here.

The field slaves - the rest of us who work all of our lives to maintain the comfort level of all of the above layers, including military grunts and law officers.

Co-operation and communication between these groups, at least until you reach the lowest level (us), is based on the trickle down theory but there is definitely intermingling going on in all the upper levels, its hard to say how much.

There are thousands of books outlining certain individuals in the upper levels, but I've never seen one that ties them all together to show how we at the bottom are literally being crushed by the sheer weight of the heavies above us. And throughout history the bottom dwellers have tried to throw off the weight and some succeeded, if only temporarily. The point is, if we're going to try it again, it would be helpful to understand the opposition a little better.

End of diatribe.

[txlibdem]

199. Wheels within wheels, sleight of hand and loads of red herrings and misdirection

Levels within levels surrounded by more levels and the occasional patsy setup scapegoat. When you've been at it for generations it becomes second nature to pull all the strings while remaining incognito. Hey, that sounds like a terrorist cell network doesn't it. How appropriate.

[fivepennies]

200. Hmmm,

terrorist cells using mob tactics. They've even managed to get the victims to implicate and prostitute themselves in the setup. All it takes is a signature on the dotted line and boom, you've been recruited. And you'd better perform, pay the extortionists on time and watch your p's and q's from then on or you'll get kneecapped in one way or another.

I used to have this fantasy - well actually it hasn't ever really gone away - that tens of millions of people liquidated all their institutionalized holdings with the intent of returning to a purely cash/local economy and that these rebels would meet in the centers of their towns and build huge pyres of burning credit cards, check books and other financial documents that chain us to the corporate wheel that we keep pushing around in circles for them while they profit from our sweat.

The news about the 10,000 newly unemployed Borders employees brought that fantasy back to mind again last night. But its just too much trouble to shop locally to keep the people of our towns employed. I've been guilty of that, myself. Click a few links, type a few numbers on the screen and a few days later your new junk comes in the mail. They've hooked us on convenience and that puts people just like us out of business and/or in the unemployment line. Bad plan.

They've also loaded us down with the fear of risk. ANY risk is too great, we need insurance for every damn possibility (I can see somebody coming up with revolution insurance) .. and yet there are millions of people out there who risk their privacy and share deep personal secrets every day on social networking sites. What are they thinking? IMO, our privacy and our signatures are the most precious things we could ever own and maybe its US who needs to learn how to be incognito!!! And don't you think that might pull some of the strings that keep us hitched to that wheel loose?

Yeah, yeah, I know. That's why its called a fantasy.

[socialist_n_TN]

146. So you're saying the grunts would fire on .American

citizens engaged in strike activity? Isn't it illegal to obey illegal orders?

[saras]

190. Of course it is, but when has being illegal ever stopped an American from being violent?

[TheKentuckian]

38. I have no idea how one looks at the world and thinks "what would be a good idea is to disarm

the populace".

It is like lambs campaigning for more slaughterhouses.

[socialist_n_TN]

144. I own guns and I do believe in self defense

That includes defense of my class. Some of us will shoot back. Not that I'm looking forward to it.

[Drahthaardogs]

168. I am from Alaska,

I have my own hunting rifles as well and I would fight until I could not fight any longer. However, we need to make sure it does not come to this.

[hifiguy]

176. The US had the money and the firepower in Vietnam.

All the Vietnamese had was the desire to get the fuck rid of the invaders, nutured by 1000 years of history, most of it resisting the Chinese. Who won?

[some guy]

22. Who gets to rebuild depends on who is

best organized, best prepared.

In one sense that is most likely churches. Moreso than business, I think. That's pretty scary to me.

[jwirr]

36. I hope you are right.

[kentuck]

2. Do you mean it's time to eat the peas?

:-)

[originalpckelly]

5. No, more like alphabet soup, and guess what it's spelling out for us?

"Eat cake."

[Ohio Joe]

3. An amazingly stupid idea - nt

[some guy]

4. I feel like that often.

We *could* rebuild something better out of the ruins.
We could also build something even worse. :(

[hfojvt]

10. if we cannot make something better happen now

then the odds of doing it during a catastrophe are vanishingly small. Might as well count on Jesus to come back and fix everything.

[MadHound]

12. Oh, I don't know about that

Post WWII Germany and Japan both came back with something better, and in relatively little time:shrug:

[some guy]

17. weirdly,

that was largely due to US influence - as we started going off the rails with our world-spanning imperial ambitions, we helped them build the sort of society we might have become if we had continued our post-Hoover, pre-war trajectory.

[fivepennies]

23. I agree.

Bring the damn monstrosity down already. But using Germany and Japan as examples of how to build a good economy isn't going to help your argument much. The ones who are eating our lunch today are the same ones who profited so handsomely on both the destruction and rebuilding caused by those wars. Well, all wars, actually.

[hfojvt]

32. both were occupied and propped up by the USA

maybe if we could be occupied by Canada or something.

But I guess for you that 40 million deaths would be worth it.

[some guy]

25. I agree with that too.

it's why the "could build something even worse" statement had a frowny with it.

[hfojvt]

34. either way, we'd also be guaranteed to lose several million people

in the process. Think of an electrical grid being disrupted in this heat and safe water not being available either. But what the heck, let's roll the frigging dice, eh?

[fivepennies]

57. No water, heat, electricy.

Shoot, we'd look just like Iraq. Expect that, either way this goes. Either we can't afford to pay it or they shut it off when the backlash comes. Some choice.

[Booster]

6. I certainly feel your pain. Seems to me this country is doomed.

I really do think ALL politicians in D.C. are either thinking of what's best for corporations or they just aren't thinking at all. It's apparent they really aren't listening to the people or these stupid wars would be ended and the rich would be taxed like the rest of us. Just doesn't make any sense to think anything else.

[LibwithGuns]

8. Agree 100%

The current 'Dem' POTUS touches SS or Medicare he will immediately become a lame duck and usher in a Pub sweep in 12.

That is just reality.

Might as well crash the entire country.

We would be better off.

[Hawkowl]

143. We'd be far better off

If the choice is party suicide by cutting Medicare and SS versus letting the Rethuglicans crash the economy over the debt ceiling, then the choice is hard, but obvious. Let it crash and take the entire Rethuglican party with it.

The ignorant rank and file Rethuglicans only learn by first hand hardship. This would cure many of them.

[Pirate Smile]

11. As insane as the crazy Republicans and ignores the enormous pain it would cause to those that can

least afford it.

Cruel.

[MadHound]

14. So instead we continue to torture the least among us

One cut at a time. Welfare reform, decreased mental health spending, cutting SS, Medicare, Medicaid, on and on ad nauseum.

Sorry, but that kind of torture is sick, and much more cruel.

[Pirate Smile]

24. Who do you think will be able to withstand the catastrophe? Who will be hurt more? Who will have the

resources to create what they want things to be like in the aftermath? The idea that you could blow everything up & the result would be the creation of a more just society seems ludicrous.

[MadHound]

28. So again, you want to continue to torture the least among us?

A cut here, a cut there, their kids, their grandkids, cut, cut, cut.

If you keep that up, after a while, it will indeed all blow up. Think French Revolution. That is where we're headed.

[Pirate Smile]

35. No, we're not. You can have a revolution at the polls by winning back control of

everything.

If we had the patience to work long term to take back the school boards, state legislatures, etc. we would be in good shape. Conservatives spent decades doing this and are still losing the fight against gay marriage and most social issues.

Our Revolutions are scheduled. They are called elections. We need to use them.

There is no "quick fix" by literally seizing guns & overthrowing the Government. That's just frustration, I know.

[socialist_n_TN]

148. You mean by voting for corporate candidate A

or corporate candidate B? What WOULD we wind up with then? Oh yeah. EXACTLY what we've got. The entire system from elections to laws, to the legislatures, local, state, and national, to the judiciary is set up to SUPPORT THE SYSTEM. And as long as the system is in place, nothing will ever change. The rich WILL get richer and the poor will get poorer until more and more of them die. And it will happen no matter which candidate we "elect". That's why it's called the dictatorship of capital.

[HereSince1628]

13. I hear you in pain, but I don't find that an appealling solution.

They WANT failure so they can create Wississippi's all over North America. I fear a new world order created by Koch Bro's funding.

[MadHound]

16. A collapse brings chaos and change,

And since it is the big boys like Koch who are the most invested in our debt, their fortune disappears, then where are they? Oh, yeah, a couple of aging brothers with little money and a lot of people pissed at them.

[HereSince1628]

30. yes a collapse would bring chaos and change

we agree on that.

[CleanGreenFuture]

33. And possibly an internal violent conflict (there's never anything "civil" about war).

[markpkessinger]

40. That it would...

...Whether or not it would be change for the better is an open (and scary) question.

[CarmanK]

15. that's what the GOP corporate moguls are hoping for!

Of course they are. The people give up and they don't have to worry about the back lash that is about to hit them in 2012. Obama said it: "Real change comes from the bottom up". It is starting in WI.

[LuvNewcastle]

18. I often feel the same way.

I don't see a real future for this country or this world until people agree that there are certain things that shouldn't be denied to anyone: food, housing, health care, security in old age. Feel free to add anything I missed. Until people agree that EVERYONE deserves those things, we'll never see any real or lasting progress.

[Amonester]

124. I want to add a clean environment, real justice

a clean environment, real justice (that includes an end to cannabis prohibition and the criminalization of hate propaganda) for all, no class distinction, and a free education to all who WANT to learn and better their knowledge in whatever field they want.

And a right to have a good-enough paying job after that, a taxation reform that doesn't penalize the middle class, compared to the upper classes.

AND an end to corporate personhood, as well as an end to corporate ownership of politicians (public campaign funding reform).

An urgent U-turn to prevent oceans from acidifying more is way overdue, and control plastic recycling to prevent killing the fish, sea birds, turtles, etc.

[Angry Dragon]

20. +1000

[CleanGreenFuture]

27. I agree 100%. With oil going in to decline too, it's the only chance to start over.

[AngryOldDem]

31. Been saying that for awhile.

Glad to know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[Capn Sunshine]

37. Your naivete is really dangerous

While such stuff sounds great on paper, the harsh reality, that the entire economic system of the world depends on the US Bonds maintaining their current (Never default) status is what is at stake. The entire economic structure of the world. That is why the armageddon talk. The crash of everything. It wouldn't be pretty. Bad enough they are jerking around now, the effect is a slowing of the economy...just what they are hoping for. The desire for Obama's failure means everything to these cretins. Not just because of who he is, but because he's a Democrat. If they had only had one more year, they would have totally destroyed the economy and created a whole class of slave labor for the emerging consumer cultures of China and India. So they are still at it.

[CleanGreenFuture]

43. You're reall big on the "entire economic structure, system...the crash of everything'. What do you

suppose is going to happen when oil decline begins in earnest? Do you not realize that all that stuff you described is going to happen eventually anyway...within a few years?

I would prefer it blew up now while we still have energy to pick up the pieces and so that my grandchildren can have a chance at a better life, not a worse one saddled with economic slavery, poverty, and unchecked public debt.

[Capn Sunshine]

59. Suuuuuure it will

just keep telling yourself that. If you really believe, maybe it will come true.

[alcibiades_mystery]

39. Demented

That yours is the actual position of many so-called progressives is clear enough. That it is monstrous in the extreme, utterly nihilistic, and immeasurably dangerous to human life is also clear.

A fine little rant. Luckily, most people have more sense.

[DevonRex]

41. I would die in about 2 months. So would others with chronic severe illness.

Maybe even sooner. That's why this OP shocked me to my toes.

[fivepennies]

49. I'm so sorry.

But if they cut social security and medicare and medicaid and all the other social programs that so many people depend on for LIFE so the rich can keep their loot, will the future look any better for people who depend on those social programs? Looks to me like its going that direction whether the whole system crashes and burns or it doesn't.

The only thing I personally regret is that this didn't come to pass when I was young and full of piss and vinegar so I could've gotten a few of my own licks in. Sitting around watching others pull the load is the hardest part and guaranteed, it'll be a load to pull. Either way.

[DevonRex]

55. I am speechless. Nt

[dionysus]

66. right. let's burn the whole neighborhood down because we're in a snit

[DevonRex]

79. This idea is jaw-droppingly idiotic. So much compassion!

[dionysus]

93. bless their little hearts for praying for disaster....

;)

[Ikonoklast]

69. Most people aren't insane.

The OP thinks tens of millions on the very bottom would end up just fine, when in reality, the least among us would do the suffering and dieing while the wealthy would hardly notice...or care.

[BzaDem]

42. Ah. Since you can't convince any non-negligible group to agree with you democratically, you assume

that there must be a way to do it by force. Kind of an inverse shock doctrine.

Another possibility is that

a) there will always be some people on both ideological sides that will never get what they want politically, from birth to death, irrespective of how angry that makes them
b) see a)

It is amazing to me how many people simply ASSUME that there is some mechanism that would get them what they want at some point (and then after realizing this is not true, they come up with new ones like some imaginary "blowing up" to keep the idea alive).

Of course, even if the imaginary "blowing up" scenario comes to pass, it is FAR more likely that we would get a much more conservative state of affairs (balanced budget Constitutional requirement, spending caps, etc). After all, there are FAR more people on the far right than the far left. But fortunately, this isn't going to happen outside certain people's imagination.

[CleanGreenFuture]

45. "there are FAR more people on the far right than the far left"

Could you please provide a source for this?

[Kahuna]

51. The tea party organized in one year and now control congress.

That's not enough proof for ya?

[JoePhilly]

129. The Tea Party was built by the GOP.

[Kahuna]

135. Excuses, excuses. Are there NO progressive Dems anywhere..

with the wherewithall to help you organize??? If there aren't, I go back to my original premise.

[JoePhilly]

137. Its not an excuse, its a fact.

The Tea Party was created by Dick Armey and similar GOP leaders so that disenfranchised crazy right wingers had a banner to follow, with the goal of increasing nut case turn out in 2010.

Now that the GOP has the House again, and the Tea Party has gained some traction, the GOP will defund the tea party candidates going forward, unless they fall in line.

My point, is that using the Tea Party as an example of what the left should do fails.

[Kahuna]

160. My point is, Where are your "progressive" heros to build you a movement?

Sitting at their keyboards, griping is my guess.

[JoePhilly]

170. That I absolutely agree with. nt

[BzaDem]

52. I suppose it depends on how you define it.

Let's define far left as those who disapprove of Obama from the left. According to Gallup (and other organizations that basically always get similar results), around 85% of Liberal Democrats approve of Obama, and Liberal Democrats make up less than 20% of the population. That leaves less than three percent of the country who disapproves of Obama from the left.

Conservatives, on the other hand, make up 40% of the country, and far more of them opposed Bush from the right.

[CleanGreenFuture]

68. I actually misread your comment. Somehow I missed the "far" designation. Thank

you for taking the time to respond. :)

[Telly Savalas]

64. Well, they hold the majority in the House versus less than a dozen or so reps

who could be considered far left.

That either means there are more of them, or that the far left is utterly fucking pathetic in that it gets outvoted by a 20 to 1 margin every other November despite having greater numbers.

[socialist_n_TN]

147. Yep I'd be curious to see that myself.......

Every poll I've seen have shown that the "Silent Majority" of the American people prefer "leftish" positions. No not as left as me, but a WHOLE lot more left than "far right".

[Kahuna]

50. Think of it as the Cantor Doctrine: I want what I want when I want it!!! nt

[CakeGrrl]

44. So all the casualties incurred in your "crash and burn" scenario

are acceptable losses, because it's for the correct reasons?

:wtf:

[Kahuna]

48. Some people didn't learn anything from 8 years of bushco.

:scared:

[Ikonoklast]

72. They'll die happy, and willingly, knowing that

Purity was finally achieved.

[in_cog_ni_to]

46. We're leaving this hell hole of a country....as soon as we can.

As soon as our son graduates college in 4 years, we are OUT OF HERE. We're done. We cannot afford to live/retire here and it's just getting worse. In 4 years, it could be almost impossible to live here, but we have no choice, we have to stay until he graduates. He needs a home. We have grown to LOATH this country and many of its citizens (RW assholes). We cannot wait to leave it and will only come back to use Medicare benefits...if need be....if we still have Medicare when "I" need it.

This is not the country it was when I was young. That country has been gone for YEARS now. This place is a shell of what it use to be.

Where we're going, we can live on a FRACTION of what it costs us to live on now. Our rent will be about what our electric bill here is every month (probably less). Food costs next to nothing. You can buy a weeks worth of groceries for $50-$60 and that includes all the fresh fruits and veggies you could ever want. Property taxes are almost zero (that's if you buy...which we won't do, but if you do buy, property taxes are around $75-$100 a year), taxis cost $1.50 to almost anywhere you go in town. A bus ride around town is 12 cents for a senior citizen (if you become a citizen of this country) and 25 cents for everyone else...to anywhere in town. You really don't need a car either. You can walk to pretty much wherever you want to in town or take the bus or taxi.

EVERYTHING is cheaper and it will be a much, much, much better life there. Doctors MAKE HOUSE CALLS! Seriously, they do. An emergency room visit is $20.00! Seriously, it is. You really wouldn't have to have health care insurance. Out-of-Pocket is very doable there. Though health insurance there is CHEAP...so we'll probably get some....just to be safe because I'm too young for Medicare. Young people, who are healthy, could just do out-of-pocket, EASILY. They have a Mount Sinai Hospital. Dentists are a fraction of what we pay here and are just as advanced as we are, if not better (MOST of the dentists and doctors are educated in the U.S., UK and Canada). Utilities cost almost nothing. You don't need AC or heat and electricity is dirt cheap anyway. There's also a large ex-pat community... I can't wait to go. I can't wait to get the hell out of here.

It's also PERFECT weather...all year long. Spring-like weather. My favorite season. :) It's also one of the most charming, beautiful towns I have ever seen.

[LuvNewcastle]

53. Where is this El Dorado you speak of?

Seriously, I've been looking to leave the country for some time now. I've been looking at a couple of places in South America, but I'm open to other locations. I would have to learn Spanish, but I'm pretty good with languages, so I don't see that as a major obstacle. I just have such a bad feeling about America these days. I see nothing in the future but more wars and right-wing politics. It's been going downhill since Reagan (at least} and the problems seem to be compounding every week. If I make a move, it's going to be soon.

[in_cog_ni_to]

61. PM me. I'll let you know where it is.

Then you can Google and see that everything I said is true. It's a heavenly place. :) I'm studying Spanish now. I have 4 years to learn it. I should be good to go when I need it. Though I am NOT good with languages. It's really hard for me, but I'm learning it .... slowly. I found a GREAT new program by Fluenz .... a Rosetta Stone competitor. It's a really fine software program, if you're interested you can try it for free on their web site before you buy it. I tried Rosetta Stone on their site and the Fluenz program blew Rosetta Stone away....for me, anyway.

PM me, I'll be happy to share with you. :)

[LuvNewcastle]

89. Check your inbox.

And thanks for the recommend about the software. I hadn't heard of that program and I'm going to check it out.

[in_cog_ni_to]

91. Check yours. :) And you're welcome on the software. It's a fabulous program.

:hi:

[socialist_n_TN]

150. Well maybe Venuzuela will take me as

a political refugee. Nobody wants a 60 year old as a regular emigree.

[in_cog_ni_to]

154. Sure they do.

You just haven't found the right country. :) Though you do have to have a guaranteed income of whatever amount that country decides on. If your monthly SS check or retirement fund is large enough, they'll take you. OR if you have enough lump sum money you can get an Investors Visa. :) If you want info, just PM me.

[DevonRex]

54. That was hilarious.

[in_cog_ni_to]

58. Why? Every word is true.

:hi: Sorry to burst your bubble.

[Capn Sunshine]

60. you mean the hilarious part?

Cause dude, I'm dyin' here. You and Mike Ruppert. :rofl:

[in_cog_ni_to]

63. Well, I'm glad you're amused. Meanwhile,

I'm preparing for a better life. Enjoy yours here. If that's your idea of a better life.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JanMichael]

96. I was wondering

if it was the same person. I enjoyed him on another board too. Odd.

[Capn Sunshine]

108. Thanks man.

I miss you too. Sorry my characterizations of the hysteria I see here are somehow inappropos.
Sacred cows are in everyones yards I guess. Me included

[Forkboy]

115. Not that they're so much inappropos, just that it's the only thing you seem to see here anymore.

I know there's a lot of silly shit here, but there's also a lot of stuff that isn't. On this issue, yes, there is definitely some hysteria, but that's because this issue is so vital to so many. I can't see how it does any good to stay quiet and just hope for the best, fingers crossed. That's not what this country is about, it's not what freedom is about. If any cuts are made many people (myself included) will be affected greatly. I'm already trying to survive on $700/month. You're talking to Jan about a place in Mexico. There's a disconnect there, one that is rampant in Washington these days, and people see that and it scares them. If we wait until after the fact to speak out it's too late, on this issue or any other. I'll always choose Americans speaking up, hysterically or not, over them keeping their mouth shut and just accepting a fate handed down from above.

Peace, Cap'n.

[Capn Sunshine]

116. I'm down with that

I just don't post here much anymore for the same reason thousands of like minded Democrats don't. It's not worthwhile to argue with someone whose mind is made up. That goes for me too. I know my mind is made up. I don't have a lot of time. I'm trying to get two new businesses up and running here and the last thing I want is to argue with people, but that's what DU is now. So I stop by now and again for a snarky comment and then bail.

I'm not from the "sit down and shut up" wing, and by all means don't think that's what we're saying. I just take issue with people posting here things that are wild ass speculation yet they say it like it's fact. And so much of it is actually designed to discourage voting, and sow dissention, guys coming from the other side pretending to be gay or liberal or whatever and posting crap here that the gullible and naive buy into. It's not pretty. I don't want to play.

[Forkboy]

166. "It's not worthwhile to argue with someone whose mind is made up."

This is why so many are frustrated by Obama's insistence up 'til now on bipartisanship with the current batch of Republicans. Talk about minds already being made up (what little mind they have).

I do understand your speculation vs fact point, but I also now that's all we have to go on right now, and let's face it, this a political message board. We need something to talk about. ;)

Thanks for explaining your position, I appreciate it.

[Capn Sunshine]

106. Jan, you know damn well these hysterical projections are not going to come to pass

If you put your money on that horse you made a bad bet.
Ignorance is what makes a market I guess, but I don't recall you being among the insult throwers. You used to be reasonable.

[in_cog_ni_to]

113. I'll post on DU from our new country.

In 4 years. Trust me, this isn't an "hysterical projection." We are leaving this place and are counting the days until we can.

[Capn Sunshine]

117. Buena Suerte en su pais nuevo

Desde mi corazón, quiero decir esto. Disfrutar de los frutos de su trabajo. Recuerde que no puede salir de todo el mundo. Estás entre los ricos si se puede.

[in_cog_ni_to]

151. Gracias.

Me sumerjo en su cultura y abrazar a todos los que tienen que ofrecer. Voy a honrar la vida que viven. Yo respeto a otras culturas. Tengo la intención de mostrar respeto por el aprendizaje de su lengua y adaptarse a la forma en que viven. Quiero ser un invitado de la gracia en su país. Gracias por las palabras de la sabiduría. :)

[JanMichael]

71. No, actually it's not. If you would quit smirking, and acting like a typically

ignorant American, you could use a simple google search and easily find places that the poster is referring to. As a matter of fact, I don't even know the person you are replying to, and I can name a few places in Mexico that are pleasant, easily accessible, and have a fairly large ex-pat population. I have known about them for years.

Life is good in some places in Mexico, or even further South.

Look into it; you might be surprised. Frankly, we'll probably be looking into this within 15 years.

[Capn Sunshine]

110. Jesse Ventura is living there

so you've got some good company. I have a place there. Estado de Mexico. It's raining every day for a week currently. As long as you don't speak out or attempt to help the oppressed or go up against a major polluter you'll do just fine there. Just don't expect democracy there or elsewhere. Right here is your best shot at it.

[malletgirl02]

155. Mexico

You forgot to mention the massive drug war in some areas of the country.

[Puglover]

161. So enlighten me.

What's so funny? My partner and I are building a house in the country she is talking about. And it's pretty much as she describes it to be. So what please, is so funny?

[Blue-Jay]

84. Don't forget to write.

Or do.

[JanMichael]

86. We are looking into that too. It stinks

but, we are considering an exit plan at this point. Right now, we can't because the parents are getting so old; once they are gone...there's not much left in the US for us to stick around for. The weather South is looking better.

:(

[Blue-Jay]

104. Honestly, I wouldn't mind buggering off too.

Maybe if I had a shitload of cash, I would. Until then, I'll just stay optimistic and do what I can do to make the best of things.

[in_cog_ni_to]

90. And

it's people like you and your attitude who have made us want to leave this hell hole. Though people like you are usually RW assholes.

Have a nice life being miserable here. We're going to be HAPPY, HAPPY, HAPPY where we're going. Only 4 more years to endure.

[Blue-Jay]

103. OK.

Enjoy your HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY life. I wish you the best.

[in_cog_ni_to]

105. Thanks. We will. n/t

[cottonseed]

109. Thank God for 3rd world resort towns. A fat American's dollar can go a LONG way with the natives.

What a rebel.

[in_cog_ni_to]

111. Ah. Shows what you don't know.

Have fun trying to make your pretty much useless dollar work for you here. Have a good life. I KNOW I will.

[cottonseed]

158. I doubt you'll be going anywhere.

[JanMichael]

152. The poster probably isn't talking about "resort towns."

Seriously? Are you even aware of what life is like in average towns in other countries? For the record, I do not know this poster, and have not associated with him/her before on DU that I can remember. However, the piling on, and assumptions of the subject is mind boggling.

Do your homework.

[cottonseed]

157. I know what it looks like when a busload of pastie fat Americans pour out of bus and look around.

Reminds me a lot of what I would imagine early settlers though while looking upon native american lands.

It disgusts me.

[JanMichael]

159. yeah. OK. So your travel experiences are limited to tourist areas-

Far out. Have a good afternoon.

[Puglover]

162. The discourse here just gets better and better doesn't it?

:eyes:

[cottonseed]

187. No. But to entitled Americans. Any South American country is their "resort town".

That's the point. I don't care if it's some "off the beaten path" place. White people with money plopping down on other's lands is disgusting to me.

[in_cog_ni_to]

192. That's very presumptuous of you to just assume

we are "Americans with money." You're just seething with jealously about something you know absolutely NOTHING about. Americans have embraced diversity for a long, long, long time. We have opened OUR doors to people with money/and without money... who wanted to PLOP DOWN ON OUR LAND. WTF is the difference? And why the fuck do think it's any of your fucking business what other Americans do, whether they're rich or poor? It's not.

It's not my fault you're stuck here. THAT'S your problem. You can't leave and want to begrudge the move to anyone who can. Tough shit for you. I find it disgusting that Americans like you even exist. It's people like YOU that have made us want to leave this hell hole of a country. You can have it.

[cottonseed]

193. I still don't think you'll end up going anywhere.

Just from your tone, I can tell you're the type of ugly American that other country's peoples absolutely hate. That's something that you'll need to deal with. Whether you hate me people like me. I don't care. I hope you're welcomed wherever you decide to take that great personality of yours. I doubt you will be.

[in_cog_ni_to]

194. Ooooooooh the irony!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'm just sorry I wasted 5 minutes on you. Have a nice life, dude.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4752206&mesg_id=4754016

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4752206&mesg_id=4754523

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=4752206&mesg_id=4754794

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x640897#641095

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9591888&mesg_id=9602680

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9591888&mesg_id=9602671

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=9591888&mesg_id=9602793

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4936663&mesg_id=4938344

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4936663&mesg_id=4937605

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1023673#1024108

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1016312#1016524

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4502249&mesg_id=4502965

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4502249&mesg_id=4503093

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8094028&mesg_id=8095420

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8094028&mesg_id=8095420

[Puglover]

163. I know exactly where the poster is talking about.

Coincidentally my partner and I are building a home there. And you are right. The assumptions are laughable.

[in_cog_ni_to]

174. I'm not talking about a resort town.

The city really isn't a vacation destination like Puerto Vallarta...not even close, but is 1000 X BETTER! Thank you for your input on this. I find all the snarky remarks kind of bizarre. Where are they coming from? Why?

[JanMichael]

175. I don't find it that bizarre anymore

Lots of ignorance in the US about other countries. My wife spent a month in San Miguel, and frankly never wanted to come home. SM is pricey now, but there are towns around it that aren't so bad :)

Dr.'s in Mexico are awesome!

[cottonseed]

188. I don't care how "out of the way" your new home is going to be.

Entitlement is what disgusts me. I'm sure these places are just dying for hordes of wheezing American retirees to flood their homelands.

[treestar]

134. But the son needs to go to college in this country

That part doesn't fit. Why not send him to college in ideal country?

[in_cog_ni_to]

172. There are no Universities with English ONLY courses in this country.

Though there are many Universities there and the population is highly educated. So, he starts his first year here next month and after he graduates, we're outta here. Why would it not "fit" that some country doesn't have English only courses? :eyes: Good grief. Some of you people are so damn bizarre. There really is another world outside the United States and not all people speak English. Where we are moving to, teaches English as a second language in Grade School and High School, so most citizens do speak a little bit of English, but none of the Universities offer English ONLY courses. Our son speaks English only.

Seriously, I really don't care if there are people on this board that don't believe what I say. Why should that matter to me? It doesn't. We are leaving this hell hole in 4 years and can't wait to do so.

[Kahuna]

47. Wow. Whew. I don't even know how to respond to such a

thoughtful argument. :eyes:

[SDuderstadt]

56. "blow it the fuck up"

Brilliant.

[dbt]

83. You know all about brilliant!

Before you arrived I used to waste all my time running down one dead end after another, trying to figure things out for myself.

THANK GODDESS YOU'RE HERE, SDUDERSTADT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:loveya:

[SDuderstadt]

85. Your faux outrage is...

amusing, to say the least.

[dbt]

88. Please don't hurt me when I'm trying to love you!

Seriously, I can't thank you enough for saving me from my delusions. I can't BELIEVE how misguided I was before you set me straight!

[SDuderstadt]

97. The only thing that hurts you is...

your silliness about this.

[dbt]

130. Another reason why I WORSHIP you!

You look directly into my soul and see motives that even I do not recognize. How COULD I have hidden this from myself???

You ARE a God!!!

:loveya:

[dbt]

185. Damn. Unrequited AGAIN!

:evilgrin:

[lunatica]

67. At some point everyone wants sudden death so the rebuilding can start

But I don't want to rebuild. I want us to build something totally different. Something that reflects Democratic Socialism. Something that is truly about we, the people. Something based in green technology and planetary consciousness. Something that makes people think of themselves as world citizens, not just citizens of a country.

Imagine what it would be like if we, the people, were actually central to a government. Not special interests, not the moneyed elite, not the wall street useless self-serving speculators, not the banks, not the military industrial complex, but just we, the people.

[fivepennies]

75. I think you'd have to learn to

think like an Indian before that could happen.

[lunatica]

76. American or from India?

[fivepennies]

78. American.

[lunatica]

98. That would be a good start

And it could happen.

[fivepennies]

101. It could.

"It is now time for a destructive order to be reversed, and it is well to inform other races that the aboriginal cultures of North America were not devoid of beauty. Futhermore, in denying the Indian his ancestral rights and heritages the white race is but robbing itself. America can be revived, rejuvenated, by recognizing a Native School of thought. -- "
Chief Luther Standing Bear
Lakota (Sioux)
Land of the Spotted Eagle

[DCBob]

80. sure glad you arent the one calling the shots in this country.

[Blue-Jay]

82. OK. That should work out nicely.

[justabob]

92. like others have said

I feel exactly the same... death by a thousand cuts is excruciating. In theory, I am right with you.... Blow it up! But actually dealing with it? Living it? Scares me to death. There is some comfort in the "devil you know", you know? Having said that, I do think it is better to get it over quickly. The explosion is inevitable, I think. In both scenarios, many will die and many more will suffer, it is only a question of intensity and duration.

[cottonseed]

107. Big talk for a retiree.

[Forkboy]

112. I have a serious nihilistic streak, but here's the reason I can't give in to it, ever.

These people will be among the destroyed when we "blow it up"...

[DevonRex]

114. Beautiful. Thank you. Nt

[Blue-Jay]

123. At least it's an ethos, dude.

[Forkboy]

125. Honestly, I totally understand where the Op is coming from Blue-Jay.

Those same thoughts have gone through my head a million times, so I can't harp on the Op at all. I can promise you his outlook is better than mine 99% of the time. I also listen a lot of black metal, which is big on destroying to rebuild, so I can relate to all of this completely. I just know too many millions of innocents will go down with the ship, and that's unacceptable to me. I can't in good conscience be a party to that. They might end up going down with the ship anyways (in fact, I'm rather sure this day is coming anyways, Professor Positive that I am), but I can't go along with the idea of hurrying it up. What if I'm wrong about that day coming? What if we can turn things around? It may be a slim hope, but it's better than no hope at all, I guess.

[fivepennies]

140. Beautiful.

Can you tell us what their futures will be if we continue with the status quo?

[Forkboy]

169. Probably the same, just a longer period of time away than pulling the plug now.

Wish I had a better answer.

[fivepennies]

171. I wish you did too, Forkboy

because no one else seems to have one that doesn't involve tremendous pain now or worse pain later.

But look at those perfect children's faces and know that they will not be smiling for us by the time they reach adulthood and see what we've done to them. If the government doesn't kill us first, they might try their own hands at it. And they'd be justified.

WASHINGTON, June 20, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- In roughly 20 years, the typical American's share of the national debt will more than triple.

Right now, the national debt averages $31,871 for each American.

And it grows by leaps and bounds every minute, every second.

[Forkboy]

173. THis is why the only good advice I have for people for the coming years is: Buckle up.

:(

[Cereal Kyller]

127. From the most underrated band of the 1980s:

Blow it all up/Blow it all up/Blow the world straight to Hell/
Blow it all up/Blow it all up/It's probably just as well/
Blow it all up/Blow it all up/Bring the world to its knees/
Blow it all up/Blow it all up/And do with it as you please

[blkmusclmachine]

131. The "Oak Initiative" prayed w/Obama at the WH, & then gave a sermon on "God-based" politics

at Easter. Personal invite from the WH to a group of hard right religious Christianists advocating for Church-State rule. They want the US to become a King James version of Iran. Now take a guess where Social Security stands with these people.

[Whisp]

132. always nice to see your happy camper face here

[MrMickeysMom]

136. As long as you're ready so deal with the local effects are...

.... let's see how many fixed income seniors can stay in their homes or buy food that the churches and food pantries and shelters (who have to survive with this same hair cut) can aid.

Are you ready to deal with that?

[rucky]

138. Who do you think is in a better position to implement a "solution" to the crisis?

Neoliberals or Progressives?

[blindpig]

153. Neither

Neos would raise capitalism to a state religion, progressives would make half hearted attempts to tame the beast but be devoured by it.

Ya need some commies.

[lonestarnot]

141. WTF.

[Safetykitten]

142. Well to be honest, it was all blown the fuck up in 2008. But...

Obama with his responses that made Wall Street happy but the rest of us fucked is the reason we are here now.

A more reasonable response that held Wall Street at bay, but started a new way of doing things that kept business from fucking us over every moment of the day would of been a great start.

And the crowning achievement woull of been HEALTH CARE FOR ALL.

But here we are.

[in_cog_ni_to]

156. I think the explosion happened in 2001 when the SCOTUS handed GW squatter rights

to the WH. That was the beginning of the end. IMCPO. Without a non-partisan, FAIR SCOTUS, this country cannot survive. I do agree that Obama could have made things so much better for WE THE PEOPLE, and has chosen not to, for whatever reason.

[Forkboy]

167. +1

[some guy]

191. + 1

That was certainly a turning point, and we certainly turned (or got turned) in a bad directions.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Skidmore]

165. I love compassionate progressives.

[Ikonoklast]

189. One must assume that the OP believes he will be one of the 'survivors'.

Funny no one ever seems to think that it will be they that end up as roadkill.

[txlibdem]

197. Will you or I become roadkill in the ongoing corporate takeover of Democracy here?

Status quo = guaranteed pain, suffering and death to come at an unknown time, zero chance of survival, zero chance of winning that fight, death by a thousand cuts says the OP.
The OP = let's control the timing, throw off the planning a bit and have a chance to emerge victorious.

It's like putting a lion in a cage and starving him for 3 weeks before you let him out for the fight. We, the American people, are being starved, divided, demoralized and dispirited before the actual fight is set to begin -- an eventual slaughter of epic proportions. Let the PTB control the timing and you will be sorry. But if the masses are aware and ready when the final assault begins we will at least stand a chance.