Tough Alabama immigration law convinces some to move

[The Northerner]

TUSCALOOSA, Ala (Reuters) - Nicolas Hernandez said goodbye to his parents just days after Alabama lawmakers passed what is being described as the country's toughest crackdown on illegal immigration.

His mother and father, undocumented workers at a farm near Birmingham, decided not to chance getting ensnared by the new law and returned to their home country of Argentina.

Hernandez, 25, said his family arrived in the United States 14 years ago on a three-year medical visa because doctors in their country could not treat his epilepsy, and then stayed after the visa expired.

"It's terrible. I hate it. It's tough because me and my family were always close," said Hernandez, who is engaged to a U.S. citizen and plans to stay in America.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/tough-alabama-immigration-law-convinces-move-134436017.html

[Cyrano]

1. Good idea to get out. How long do you think before Alabama legalizes lynching immigrants?

[HowHasItComeToThis]

10. HEY Y'ALL, IT IS JUST SOUTHERN HOSPITALITY

:puke: :puke: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[pampango]

2. Minorities have been leaving Alabama for decades. If their departure led to higher wages for

the folks still living there, Alabama would have the highest wages in the nation by now. :)

[truebrit71]

3. True, but at least it must be great to have zero unemployment down there..

..I mean, as the illegals leave, all of those jobs go to the legal residents right? ;-)

[ladjf]

4. That number also includes many of the most intelligent and educated

of the population. ("The Brain Drain.")

[provis99]

5. Alabama had brains to drain?

that doesn't compute!

Like my old Alabama professor said, "Virginia is for Lovers, but Alabama is for Dummies!"

[ladjf]

7. You know better than that. All large populations of people have

a range of talent and intelligence.

[bluestate10]

25. Alabama has the Redstone Arsenal and a NASA facility.

The University of Alabama and Auburn have some excellent colleges. There are pockets of smart people in the state. But most of the state is packed with ignorant asses. When the brainy people leave the state, the concentration of red voting dumb-asses increases.

[AlabamaLibrul]

33. har har

[KamaAina]

6. The story is datelined Tuscaloosa

Exactly who do they think is going to rebuild all those homes and businesses that were wrecked in the recent tornado?

Judging from New Orleans' experience after Katrina, the answer is likely "undocumented, largely Mexican, immigrants". Or, thanks to this crock of crap, "nobody". :(

[WatsonT]

16. Because America isn't filled with unemployed construction workers?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/employment/2010-02-25-construction25_ST_N.htm

Saying "oh noes who will fill these jobs!" doesn't make sense when we have official 9% unemployment and real unemployment closer to 25%.

If we were building factories at such a rate that domestic workers cannot be found to fill the new positions, ok that'd be a different story.

But are you sure now is the time to argue that we don't have enough surplus labor in this country?

[KamaAina]

24. Well, it sure didn't seem that way to New Orleanians

when they came home and started to rebuild. Maybe the American workers didn't want the jobs badly enough to go down there? :shrug:

[WatsonT]

27. Illegal workers will be used as long as available because they are cheaper

if you make them no longer available then of course they'll hire Americans.


"Of course only slaves are willing to pick cotton. You see any free people out here picking it for wages? Of course not. Now granted we won't pay wages and we're only willing to use slaves, but the point stands! Without slaves no cotton could ever be picked at a profitable rate!"

[KamaAina]

35. All I know is no one with papers was around to fix Swamp Rat's roof

Los inmigrantes were.

[WatsonT]

8. So a program to get rid of illegal aliens is causing illegal aliens to leave

sounds like a successful program.

[pampango]

11. A wonderful sign of bipartisanship? And a thank you to republicans for a "successful program"?

Perhaps it is a sign of new-found "bipartisanship" that DU can find common ground with the republican state legislatures and governors responsible for tea party-inspired immigration laws. In the bad ol' "partisan" days the fact that civil rights groups and labor unions opposed this kind of republican legislation would have kept many DUers from giving credit where credit is due for a "successful program". ;)

My guess is that if this type of law really was good for American workers, civil rights groups and labor unions would not be promoting opposition to them. Or are we supposed to question their motives while we credit Southern republicans with looking out for the best interests of American workers?

[WatsonT]

12. Could you explain how adding new workers

at a time of high unemployment will help American workers?

Throw in the fact that they will be paid less than minimum wage and there is really no way to claim that illegal immigration helps working Americans.

It's as beneficial as outsourcing to India for our workers except it's hitting jobs that would otherwise be safe from such a move.

Are you pro-outsourcing?

[pampango]

23. Apparently organized labor agrees with me that getting illegal immigrants to just move

is not a realistic answer to higher wages for Americans. They have seen the studies that show that the best way to improve wages and working conditions for everyone is a comprehensive solution to immigration reform including a path to citizenship.

You and I know that republican politicians view that as "amnesty" and will never agree to it (the teabaggers won't stand for it). They dream that if they are just tough enough on illegal immigrants they will all go "home" one day and the problem will be magically solved. No amount of evidence to the contrary or studies that show that will not work can move them off their "attrition through enforcement" mentality.

Unions know that eliminating the large pool of exploitable illegal immigrants is the goal. They do not agree with republican governors and state legislators on politically popular "get tough on illegal immigrants" laws and are convinced that those will never achieve that goal. That's why they support comprehensive immigration reform (in addition to workplace enforcement and a number of other elements) as the only realistic way to achieve this. They know that the republicans' "law-and-order" "enforcement-through-attrition" will not achieve that goal.

[WatsonT]

28. Explain how undercutting organized labor is helping organized labor

How does adding more workers increase the value of the average worker?


Just answer me that and I'll concede the point: how does surplus result in increased value.

[pampango]

29. "In fact, numerous studies have shown that immigrants don’t steal jobs; they create them by

expanding the scope of economic activity."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-misplaced-anger-against-marylands-dream-act/2011/07/12/gIQArFwzEI_story.html

I've posted some of these studies and would do so again, but I suspect you would actually concede nothing. The point is that organized labor and the progressive caucus have seen them and which is why they support an immigration policy that based on a comprehensive reform plan, not just 'find 'em and deport 'em".

I suspect many of us believe certain things because they just seem logical or intuitive and no amount of "evidence" or "studies" will convince us otherwise. Any study or evidence that contradicts our belief must be "flawed".

"How does adding more workers increase the value of the average worker?" The US has been "adding more workers" for about 235 years - more if you count the ever-growing colonies prior to independence. We had lots more workers in 1976 than we had in 1776, but each of those 1976 workers had more "value" than the 1776 worker. Why?

Each new worker - teenager entering the workforce, high school or college graduate, immigrant, etc. - creates his or her own demand for goods as well as increasing the supply of labor. That's how a 1976 worker could have more "value" (quality of life) than a 1776 worker even though the number of American workers had increased by factor of 10 or more in those 200 years. So "adding more workers' led to "an increase in the value of each worker." It can happen.

[WatsonT]

32. A conclusion without a citation doesn't mean much

Also that is referring to a very specific kind of illegal alien: the ones going to college after having been raised in the US most of their lives.

That is not the average illegal aliens story.

And the actual studies show quite the opposite from your opinion post:

http://www.cis.org/node/238
http://www.frbatlanta.org/pubs/wp/working_paper_2008-7c.cfm
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:VI_ohD-jY-EJ:www.fiscalpolicy.org/ImmigrantsIn25MetroAreas_20091130.pdf+Fiscal+Policy+Institute,+%22Immigrants+and+the+Economy,%22+December+2009&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShudX1PzucLnd9bXFg5Be7M-rmjiDyCw5L6xa2Cve2HFQd8AEB20swRwLrHF20tM6EXDhGVyuoktk5oWK1rBoPJjLqRWG_OOr4JKCpRgGd2Qx1AS6k9pdbnjHS6s6wQBzvB4sRc&sig=AHIEtbRLf8JvFrCJsM_B4OjJpelcB4uSPg

http://www.carryingcapacity.org/huddlenr.html


I mean think about it honestly for a second with an open mind. If employers can pay an American 10 dollars for a job or an illegal 2 dollars who are they going to pick? Now the American must lower his expected wages in an attempt to compete with that.

[pampango]

34. I think you misunderstand my position. I'm not FOR illegal immigration, I'm FOR a comprehensive

solution to it. Unions and the progressive caucus are not FOR illegal immigration either precisely because, as you state, they are so easily exploited by unscrupulous employers. What they are FOR is a comprehensive solution, not the Southern republican focus on enforcement only.

What I am AGAINST is the belief that sole focus on making life miserable for these illegal immigrants to the point where they will just go away (attrition through enforcement) is a viable solution. It is a clever tactic of the right that has been shown not to be a workable solution, but is effective with its "law and order" base. If unions and the progressive caucus thought that this was a viable solution they would support it. Instead they see it as a "shift the blame" and "divide 'us' workers from 'them' workers strategy designed to preserve the status quo for employers.

There! I "thought about it for a second with an open mind" and agree with your depiction of the problem posed by illegal immigrants. How about that? Unions and progressive caucus must agree with your assessment of the problem, too, or they would not be supportive of any kind of reform. (The studies below show a lesser impact of illegal immigrants on wages and back up the wisdom of a comprehensive solution to the problem.)

Any reciprocal "thoughts" from you regarding a fair solution to the problem. Perhaps with respect to the wisdom of the unions' and progressive caucus' support for a comprehensive solution to the problem?

http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/special-reports/raising-floor-american-workers
http://factcheck.org/2010/05/does-immigration-cost-jobs/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/30/AR2010043001106.html
http://www.seiu.org/2010/03/afl-cio-seiu-ufcw-urge-senate-leaders-to-move-comprehensive-immigration-reform-forward.php

BTW. the Center for Immigration Studies is a John Tanton anti-immigration organization that opposes all immigration, not just the illegal variety and its "findings" are always consistent with their goals.

And the Washington Post's editorial statement that ""In fact, numerous studies have shown that immigrants don’t steal jobs; they create them by expanding the scope of economic activity" wasn't limited to a very specific type of immigrant. The editorial was targeted at opposition to a specific type of immigrant, but their statement applied to immigrants as a whole who "don't steal jobs; they create them by expanding economic activity" - just like Americans entering the workforce.

[WatsonT]

37. What do you define as a fair solution?

I'm not of the opinion that we need to rework our immigration system to make it easier for low skill workers to come here.

Nothing against them but frankly we don't need any more manual laborers.

Letting in doctors and engineers and other professionals makes sense.

Letting in construction workers when our construction industry is facing record unemployment does not.

So again, what is "fair" immigration? Everyone who wants in gets in?

[treestar]

30. Is it? Just "some" and one story

Furthermore, the people might just move to other states.

[WatsonT]

36. Probably they will

but you can't judge the success of a state program by the results in another state.

[NightWatcher]

9. farm workers are leaving hmm? Go ask Georgia how that worked for them

and prepare for farms to go bankrupt after being unable to find someone willing to harvest the crops for a slave's wage.

And dont forget food prices will go up and exported food sales will dry up because grocers will buy the cheaper produce in Mississippi (until they go racist as well).


But it's cool, yall hate brown people, cause they steal all the white man's jobs. Good luck finding a white man to go pick veggies for a couple bucks a day.

Dumb crackers.

Signed, Georgia Born N Raised (so dont go calling me a South basher)

[WatsonT]

13. Farms will go bankrupt if they can't pay people slaves wages

that sounds familiar . . .

Doesn't that line of reasoning (that high wages are killing companies and thus they should be dropped to slave wages) argue against the minimum wage and unions entirely?


Either labor costs matter, in which case that argues against any sort of fair compensation for American workers or it doesn't in which case there is no argument against removing illegal aliens.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. Actually son... look up how much produce is going to mulch in the fields

in Georgia.

[WatsonT]

17. Fire 90% of employees in any sector

and there will be problems in the short term.

Look up what ending slavery did to the south. Lot of problems in the short term, and those workers were still in the same basic area, they just had to be paid now and work out different contracts.

Despite the few months of disorder that may have caused I still think it was the right move. You agree don't you?

[WatsonT]

18. And BTW, have you always been for cutting wages to benefit owners

or is this a new revelation?

[nadinbrzezinski]

19. No I want them to be paid market wages minimum wage at the least

why we should go to VISAS... but fact is Muricans do NOT want to pick lettuce in the fields, or work in chicken coops. It is hard, miserable work. So how about giving these people the VISAS they need.

also you should do some research as to who went recruiting for ielgal workers in the Mexican Bajio... before you go scream too much... a practice that landed a few of those recruiters working for Tyson foods in Mexican Jails.

As they say... things are NOT as simple as you think they are.

Oh and the argument you are making is as old as before the US was born. We have always had a class of workers that is despise dby other workers who will not do the same work either. First it was slaves, who did undercut salaries, then it was immigrants of all kinds of colors and flavors. The only thing that has changed is the fact they are brown, speak Spamish and are catholic,.

[WatsonT]

21. Why should we go to the effort to import manual low wage workers

when so many Americans are out of work?

Americans ARE willing to do this work. At a reasonable price. They won't for 4 dollars an hour. Get rid of the competition and we'll either all starve to death because no one will work on a farm (apparently some people believe whites are incapable of physical labor) or we'll adjust and start hiring Americans instead. I'm going to guess we won't simply starve rather than work.

Many a plantation owner swore that anyone but a slave could be used to pick cotton. I think they were wrong. History has shown me to be right. History will show me to be right here too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Georgia PROVED Ameircans are NOT willing to do it

and Alabama will prove it again.

Also you want cheap food, which is FEDERAL POLICY... CONNECT A FEW DOTS!

As to plantation owners, do some readying as to what happened after the civil war. If you think share croppers were paid better I got a bridge to sell you in brooklyn. It is a cheap bridge by the way, slightly used.

[WatsonT]

26. Whoa hold on there

you believe that there are no Americans willing to do manual labor?

Ok, so you believe whites are above such things. Fine, I disagree, but whatever. Certainly there are other kinds of Americans more suitable (as you say) to such labor.

"Also you want cheap food, which is FEDERAL POLICY... CONNECT A FEW DOTS!"

Preventing illegal immigration is also a federal policy.

You can have cheap food by subsidizing it on the consumption end via food stamps. Not by using de facto slave labor. I really find this amazing that it has to be argued.

Your whole point is A) white Americans are too good for some kinds of labor. B) poor brown foreigners are a good exploitable cheap labor source so C) why not use those disposable sorta-people to provide cheap goods for us?

"As to plantation owners, do some readying as to what happened after the civil war. If you think share croppers were paid better I got a bridge to sell you in brooklyn. It is a cheap bridge by the way, slightly used. "

Were they paid better than slaves? Uh . . . yeah. Something is always > than nothing. (crack open an old math book if you don't believe me)

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Yep, dumb assess, The racism will byte them in ass

also how long until it is not just them brown people from 'ther countries, but goes to them N... and then poor whites?

Yep, it is lovely.

At times I wonder how long until it is time to pack and leave.

[RebelOne]

31. Nope, doesn't seem to be working.

I see on the local Atlanta TV news station about how the crops are rotting in the fields because the farmers can't get any workers now.

[baycityMI]

20. well, at least we have a state we can send bigots to!