For those in your sixties and think you're at death's door...............

[Fire1]

Here's something to consider when you think you won't live long enough to reach the age of eligibility. Age is largly a state of mind and some who will have to work a part time job to make ends meet certainly will not engage in the stressful strenuous jobs of the past but can certainly pursue part time employment in libraries, colleges, hospitals, doctor's offices and even walmart as greeters if necessary.

I know there are exceptions to every rule but I'm very glad baby boomers don't have the mind set of our parents and grandparents. I also realize that economics plays a pivitol roll in the state of one's health and that's why I further advocate that healthy foods and free health care should be available to everyone.

http://www.freep.com/article/20110713/FEATURES01/107130356/1025/rss05

[BeFree]

1. Who wants to live till they die? (TIC)

Best to just get it out of the way.

Only the good die young, The rest of us are meant to suffer. That's life

[Fire1]

33. "Who wants to live til they die?" EVERYBODY!! LOL!!! n/t

[Starry Messenger]

2. Well, I'm only 40, but we tend to cork off early in the Messenger family.

I'm not likely to live long past retirement, if I actually live that long. These days I have no hope of golden years of old poopdom whatsoever.

[Raschel]

29. Thanks for the laughs post 1 & 2

the rest are meant to suffer, cork off early...

:rofl:

[WinkyDink]

3. Liberalism turned on its head. It isn't a matter of MIND-SET or individual FITNESS.

It isn't a matter of being ABLE to find a part-time job.

It is a matter of the GOVERNMENT'S KEEPING FAITH WITH OUR MONEY.

And as a Boomer I have no clue as to what you mean by "the mind set of our parents and grandparents." Those people worked hard their entire lives and for a longer time.

[Fire1]

5. Then you need to skip this op. n/t

[WinkyDink]

24. Oh, I see; your rule is skip all posts we might disagree with? Yassuh, BOSS.

[cali]

4. What mindset of our parents and grandparents?

Hell, my mother is 92 and still going strong.

[Fire1]

7. Then she's an exception. Generally, they didn't work after

retirement. They weren't anywhere near as active and vital as we are. They didn't swim, go to the gym, Yoga, ride bikes, jog or eat what we now consider healthy foods (perhaps b/c everything back then WAS organic!)and sex? I don't think so. I'm not trying to insult anyone but I can certainly see a huge difference between the two generations.

[cali]

9. Many, many people of our grandparents' generation never stopped working

Furthermore, people of those generations were less obese and less likely to be "couch potatoes".

[Fire1]

10. I think we're going by what we saw in our experiences and

my experiences are in sync with the article.

[Raschel]

25. AND ate better foods.

:hi:

[Fire1]

28. Said that. n/t

[Raschel]

31. you said they didn't eat what we consider better foods

[Fire1]

34. "Perhaps because everything back then WAS organic" n/t

[swilton]

49. ++++

Our grandparents' generation did not stop working because there were more mom & pop businesses and more Main Streets vice shopping centers populated by franchises.

As for finding jobs at the now dominant franchises or local libraries - they aren't so plentiful. With unemployment as high as it is older retirees are at a disadvantage for even the jobs in the libraries, doctors offices....

[WinkyDink]

27. You're talking crazy. My now-87-yr-old mother of this Boomer was a golf champion.

And no, she was NOT an exception insofar as sports for her generation.
Who do you think belonged to country clubs, bowling leagues, etc.??

You are completely ignorant of the Boomers' parents' generation, ca. 1950---1970.

[Fire1]

35. Comment noted. n/t

[Skidmore]

64. Tell us, who belonged to the country clubs.

No one I know from mine or my parent's generation--all working class people. Green fees and memberships are not in many people's budgets and are in a class of luxury expenses. How many grandmothers do you think are out there who are golf champions anyway?

[Fire1]

72. LOL!!! Good one. n/t

[Raschel]

40. or eat what we now consider healthy foods (perhaps b/c everything back then WAS organic!)

they didn't eat what we consider healthy, but everything was healthy..

They ate healthy or didn't? Your posts are really confusing.

[pitohui]

44. she's NOT an exception

i was brought up in the south, mom in her 70s, dad in her 80s

we had yoga inflicted us from tiny toddling age

yoga, going to gym, swimming, working out...all that good happy crappy was popularized around 1920 or maybe earlier

if YOUR parents didn't go to the gym, swim, camp, do yoga, patronize real health food stores into of the GNC vitamin seller crap they have today that just sells chemicals...YOU are the exception

it isn't like i was brought up in california, fact is, people who are the true "OLD OLD" greatest generation were and ARE active people

yoga has existed for thousands of years, believe it or not, it was not invented by madonna in 1987, shocker, i know, but you could look it up...

[Fire1]

59. I grew up in the south as well and you're right my parents

probably ARE an exception. They didn't have access and/or I guess even the interest in those things. But then again, I guess they did get some exercise marching and protesting during the civil rights movement but that was BEFORE they retired. Even after retirement, segregation in the south was still very much a factor. My father was the most active as he played golf until he couldn't any longer.

[LiberalAndProud]

47. "Generally, they didn't work after retirement"

Is that a statistic included in the link? If so, my apologies, but my understanding tends to derive from my personal experiences. I find that the people I know don't generally fit your generalization. I know a great many people who continued to work after "retiring" in my parents' generation. They tended to garden and preserve home grown produce more. They didn't consume vast quantities of mass produced processed foods over the span of their lifetimes. Fast food was an extravagance, not a staple. And they exercised in the course of their daily lives far more than the current video game generation.

Your OP doesn't come out and explicitly say it, but there is an underlying sense of it that says, "It's your own fault if you get sick." You know, healthy living can have an affect on illness and frailty, but we can't always delay or prevent disease. What are you, 20 something? I feel far less immortal now than I did 30 years ago.

[Fire1]

52. Boomers are not the video generation and my post

basically compares the vitality of the boomers vs that of our previous generations. I'm inclined to agree with the article that 65 is the new 45. Yeah, our parents were active to a degree but I didn't see much jogging after they retired, yoga or Ti Chi, there were a few avid women golfers but not as many as there are now, etc. etc. I saw working in the garden, cooking , sewing, a little traveling and playing bridge.

[Art_from_Ark]

94. Whose generation are you talking about?

You know a lot of those hippies and free-lovers of the '60s, who are now old enough to have grandchildren, if not great-grandchildren, went swimming, did Yoga, rode bikes, jogged, ate organic, and yeah, even had sex.

[Ex Lurker]

95. I kind of see your point. My parents are in their seventies, and while they aren't

without a few health issues, they seem "younger" and more active than my grandparents were at that age. OTOH, retirement was generally unknown to the generations before that. They worked as long as they could, because they had to. When they "retired" it was because of some severe illness or disability.

[pipi_k]

42. Sounds like my mom

She'll be 77 in a few days.

She's always busy doing something or other. Bingo. Dancing classes. Trips with her "man friend".

Up till a few years ago she worked at Dunkin Donuts. She would get up at 2 AM to be there for 4 AM, work until noon or maybe a bit later. She would tell me about the younger people she worked with. Teenagers...young women in their early 20s. They would work an hour or two, then complain about how "tired" they were.

Always has a good attitude.

She's amazing

[Ineeda]

6. I want to collect SS for many, many years to make up for

my hubby (dead at 57), my sister (dead at 62), my best friend (dead at 62), and my SIL (dead at 53.) It pisses me off that none were able to retire and enjoy their 'golden years.':mad:

[Fire1]

8. I mentioned the "unfairness" of that dilemma just yesterday to

a few posters. I understand.

[Blue_In_AK]

11. I'm 64, healthy, retired and receiving early social security.

I don't feel guilty at all, and I have no intention of going back to work unless it's an absolute necessity. Younger people need those jobs, even the part-time ones you're talking about.

I'm not quite catching the drift of your post.

[TheKentuckian]

12. What is your underlying point? I don't mean to put words in your mouth

but are you implying people shouldn't mind delayed benefits because of the power of positive thinking and they should keep working in a reduced capacity anyway?

I hope I grossly misinterpret but I'm not sure what else to gather here.

[Fire1]

17. My point is the following:

Many seniors who are able to work want to work. I know too many right now who were laid off, pushed out or whatever and still wanted to continue working, well beyond the age of eligibility. Some out of necessity and some just to remain active, productive and maintain their social network.

The thing about positive thinking is mainly in response to people saying that Obama is "pulling the rug out from under" seniors and trying to "impoverish" them by delaying the age of FULL benefits. My response to that is most people don't wait to reach the age of full benefits, apply as soon as they're eligible and supplement those benefits with part time jobs inspite of those disabilities which may not be that debilitating. I guess I went all around robin's barn to say that. Sorry.

[Raschel]

37. so you're saying "most" people with disabilities should wait because their disabilities aren't

really all that serious? They should be working full time?

[Fire1]

39. I don't know how you got that out of that post but no that's not

what I'm saying.

[Raschel]

48. This is what you posted:

"The thing about positive thinking is mainly in response to people saying that Obama is "pulling the rug out from under" seniors and trying to "impoverish" them by delaying the age of FULL benefits"

Don't worry use positive thinking?

"most people don't wait to reach the age of full benefits....inspite of those disabilities which may not be that debilitating"

They can work full time a couple years more, their disabilities aren't really that bad


:shrug:

[Fire1]

56. You are obviously along way from receiving retirement

benefits. Get more info on how it works, then post. You seem to be itching for an argument and I will not accommodate.

[Hawkowl]

41. State of mind is a bit ridiculous

I am guessing that you must be on the younger side. The mind can only accomplish so much as one ages. To assert otherwise is simple denial and fear of the inevitable death.

I just turned 45, am in excellent health and am mistaken for being 30 years old all the time. Yet, my body requires about 300% more maintenance than it did a mere 10 years ago. Sleep, food, exercise, and now doctor visits are simply no longer an option but a necessity. I have a few role models who are senior citizens who are in excellent health and retired. Not surprisingly, they are wealthy and have the free time and medical care to maintain a high degree of health and activity. Those who slave away in physically demanding jobs or don't have access to health care simply break down faster, no matter their "state of mind", and simply aren't going to make it much past 65.

Life gets progressively harder as one gets older--if you are lucky to get older at all. Mix into that equation that you never know how much time you have, plus all the young people who need jobs, the age discrimination against getting a job once you are over 55, and the SS benefit edibility should be dropped to 55.

[Raschel]

53. +1 we have a lot of retirees from manufacturing jobs (that are now gone)

who's bodies' have been beaten up for years.

[Fire1]

63. Ah, that explains alot. n/t

[Fire1]

57. I didn't imply this should be a rule of thumb across the board.

I was careful to include terms like "some," "many," and disabilities that MAY not be debilitating.

[Hawkowl]

60. Incoherent

All that does is muddy your message. I'm saying it is the EXCEPTION that doesn't need to take benefits earlier. You are saying that it is the NORM, but are willing to grant exceptions.

Do you see the difference?

[Raschel]

61. like this? most people don't wait to reach the age of full benefits,,in spite of those disabilities

which may not be that debilitating"

[SDuderstadt]

13. I plan on living forever...

so far, so good.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

14. Budgets for libraries and colleges are being slashed -- try to keep up.

For example, the UNC system is set to lose $414 MILLION from the state:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/07/08/1328998/unc-system-will-lose-414-million.html

Unemployment? What unemployment?!

Dealing with the public -- the sick, injured and dying -- in hospitals and doctor's offices can be incredibly stressful. (I know -- my mother did it for nearly 45 years.)

Yeah, and working as a Walmart greeter during your golden years is an $8.50/hr dream come true.

My parents and grandparents worked hard, paid into the system, and had a comfortable (not luxurious) retirement. THAT is what Americans should be demanding. If a senior choses to work so be it, but there's no reason whatsover that a senior should have to struggle staying afloat when this country spends BILLIONS PER WEEK on endless wars. God Bless America.

Surely you can't be that clueless. Or maybe you can.

[Fire1]

16. Budgets have been slashed but it really depends on the state

you're in. Libraries in my county are thriving and the main library in the city is thriving, as well. I've been to the hospital a couple of times last year for tests and seniors were everywhere and not as volunteers. They are patient advocates, working at the information desks, gift shops, etc. No, these are not jobs from which you build a career and if you think that, you've missed the point. These are jobs to SUPPLEMENT benefits, IF NECESSARY.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

67. RAISE THE CAP, not the age requirement.

Then there's no need to work some $hit retail job -- on your feet all day -- at age 70.

Problem solved.

[NotThisTime]

15. A friend of a friend died last night at 52, I had a friend die at 38, both heart attacks

Genetics play into how long you live... both massive MI's, the 52 year old had a MI 14 years ago...

[shanti]

43. sorry to hear about your friends :(

they passed very young!

one of my ex-coworkers (and friends) was just 60 when she died in her sleep from a heart attack a few months ago. she only had a couple of years to go before she was eligible to retire, and sooooo wanted to retire and leave her stressful job/boss, but never got the chance. she talked about retiring all the time.

[JuniperLea]

18. 99.75 is the oldest... 89 is the youngest...

of the women in my family who have died in my lifetime.

I hope to be able to work on into my 70's... or to develop a taste for Spam and day old bread.

[Fire1]

23. OR get a part time job to supplement those benefits. My

husband does it everyday and LOVES it! He's an IT person for a college.

[JuniperLea]

30. I was just talking about post-retirement 'jobs' with a friend...

I do see it in my future! Good to hear your husband loves it too... I've always felt that some people just shouldn't retire... too active to be idle for long, too smart to let it happen!

A friend of a friend lives in retirement housing that was once dormitory space, and she sits in on all the classes she likes! What fun that would be. And I've always liked the idea of being a Camp Host in one of the State or National Parks Campgrounds. When I took my kids camping when they were little, they got a kick out of the hosts... and we saw the same ones over and over. What a great retirement... I don't know if it pays, but it sure doesn't cost much!

[Fire1]

50. Thanks for the post. You obviously get it. n/t

[Vinca]

19. I've been thinking about this very subject quite a bit lately.

I'm 62 and my husband is 64. In March I had a hip replacement and was out of commission for a few weeks, but now I'm back doing everything I've always done. This morning I mentioned to my husband that I can't think of one thing I couldn't do now that I did in my 20's and 30's including laying a real hardwood floor during one house project. It really is a state of mind. About a week ago I heard that Ringo Starr had turned 71 and was about to go on tour. Never get old.

[Fire1]

21. I hear ya!!! If you don't use it, you lose it. n/t

[joeybee12]

20. Good Lord...no, the jobs you speak of are not the ones people will

have to take...they will be the ones cleaning hotel rooms, stocking shelves at Walmart, frying burgers at McDonald's...THOSE are the jobs that are out there.

[Fire1]

26. Then you haven't looked very far. n/t

[rug]

22. I'm on the RJReynolds retirement plan.

[RebelOne]

32. I am 72 and do not feel as if I am at death's door.

I have been collecting social security for 7 years. And I plan to live into my 80s. And there is no one who is going to hire a 72 year old, not even on a part-time basis. I'm not worried about working part-time right now. I have enough money in the bank to last me a few years. Right now, I have not needed to touch it.

[Fire1]

36. Good for you but I disagree. I've seen too many 70 and 80

year olds who don't even look their age and are working part time jobs BECAUSE THEY WANT TO!

[pitohui]

38. age is not a state of mind, it's a physical fact

and those of you in your teens and twenties who haven't yet encountered the HARD facts of aging should shut the fuck up and stop talking down to those who are actually in the process of aging

it is not a fucking state of mind, it is not my fucking imagination, it's a hard fact that our bodies age and the only reason we live longer than we did in 1900 is medical technology -- even jesus asked if a man ever added one cubit (inch) to his height by taking thought -- if jesus thought positive thinking was bullshit, that's kinda almost good enough for me, but science thinks it's bullshit too

ever notice how rich celebs "age" much slower than "real" people, even tho rich celebs use more drugs, go on shitty diets, and keep terrible hours jet setting all over the world (using drugs, anorexic diets, and changing sleep patterns are correlated to shorter life span, more heart disease, and more diabetes in the poor and middle class -- but the rich who do this look terrific and live long)

it's because they have more access, because they have more money, to medical technology

you can't buy the tech you need to stay healthy working as a walmart greeter, much less by VOLUNTEERING and working for nothing, so you're actually losing money to get to work, at the library

what the hell is the matter with people????

many of my relatives thought like you, that eating health diets and doing an hour of yoga a day meant they would never get old, they found out the hard way...and so will you

age is not a state of mind and saying "oh well, it doesn't matter if you can't afford good food or medicine, you can always work at walmart" is just disgraceful, in my view

[Fire1]

45. Hate to break it to ya, but I turned 60 this year and I'm

inclined to agree with the article that 65 is the new 45. If you and Jesus think it's NOT a state of mind, FINE, but I don't care to go down that road. I'm well aware that all the cream and lotions in the world are not going to turn back the hands of time and I don't think I'm suggesting that, AT ALL!!

[Raschel]

51. Hey, if you want to work till the day you die great. That doesn't make raising the retirement age

okay.

[Fire1]

54. That's YOUR opinion and that's ALL it is. n/t

[Raschel]

58. What a stupid answer. Why are you posting this right wing propaganda to raise the retirement age?

It's all positive thinking...blah blah...people with disabilities can keep working full time...blah blah...it's okay to raise the retirement age...

What crap. And don't ask me where I got that from, it's in your posts. Go back and read them.

[Fire1]

62. Comment noted. n/t

[Xithras]

46. Reminds me...

My great-grandmother famously sat my grandfather and his five brothers down when she hit 61, explained her will to them, and told them how and where she wanted to be buried. She was "old", and expected her life to end at some point in the following few years.

By all accounts, she was as suprised as anyone when she lived another 42 years and had to bury four of the six sons around that table before her time finally came.

Live your life like you're going to live to 105, because you may end up being around a lot longer than you expect.

[Fire1]

55. Absolutely!!! n/t

[LiberalAndProud]

65. You are conveniently ignoring the effect of longterm chronic disease.

Type II diabetes: On the rise, more of it at younger ages. Insulin ain't cheap, and diabetes has long-term overall health effects. Raising the age of Medicare may actually decrease our life expectancy. Not to mention, we have yet to experience the long-term health effects of extended radiation exposure from nuclear power plant failure and other environmental pollution.

We have wonder technologies to extend life. My own mother's life has been extended by 11 years and counting because she has access to dialysis treatment. What happens to those people who don't have access? They die.

I'm happy for you that you enjoy a healthy life. But I think you're being rather ego-centric to apply that same outlook to the population as a whole. I think you're trying to sugar coat a bitter pill. If you're happy with the idea of a later retirement, I guess that's your prerogative. I wouldn't expect the majority of the population to join you in your rosy outlook.

[Cleita]

66. Sure, there will be oodles of easy part time jobs available

for seniors. :sarcasm: Gawd another Freeper disconnect from the reality of what seniors do have to face up to. And anyone who thinks work in a library, college or doctor's office is an easy ride obviously never worked in any of those jobs. I have done all in the past and they are hard work, not to mention that senior memory can cause you to be a liability in any of those venues.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

68. OP Summary: "Hey, old fucks: eat better, work longer, think positive, enjoy losing SS benefits."

:*

[WorseBeforeBetter]

69. Anything as long as Obama WINS! (n/t)

[Fire1]

76. Actually, I hope he doesn't. He's already made history and

I think he's done a tremendous job.

[Fire1]

70. It's all in one's perspective. I'm not going to wait to get my

full benefits, so I expect to work. Personally, I'd prefer that it stays at 55 and extends to some age rather than reducing payments.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

71. You prefer SS "stays at 55"?

[Fire1]

73. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of pensions. I'll re-do that to 62 for SS. n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

75. For a second there I was beginning to wonder if you had any idea what you were talking about.

Now I stopped wondering.

[Fire1]

77. ok. n/t

[WorseBeforeBetter]

74. 55? RAISE THE CAP -- no need to extend the age or reduce payments.

No offense, but are you dense? This is pretty basic stuff.

[Fire1]

78. I guess I am cause I'm responding to you. n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

79. Come on, youngster, let it out.

Say what you really mean. Cut the horseshit.
You want to cut SS & you don't want Obama to win.
What's that add up to?

[Fire1]

80. That's NOT what I mean! I paid into SS and I want at least

SOME of it. I'm already only going to get a percentage then they wanna reduce THAT!! Come on!!!

[A-Schwarzenegger]

84. The problem may be that you don't know what you mean yourself.

And youre working it out in this thread.

[Fire1]

86. I think my last post said the bulk of it. If anyone bothered to read

the article and further explanations to specific posters, it makes alot of sense. People may not agree but it is still logical. The problem comes in when folks attempt to distort what is actually being said and that IS ALSO quite obvious in this thread.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

87. If your message were twice as mysterious as you'd like it to be,

it would still be as transparent as gas, I mean glass.

[Fire1]

88. Well, it isn't a mystery to a few folks in this thread, so that tells

me alot. It seems if more people ACTUALLY KNEW how the retirement system worked this thread wouldn't be such a "mystery."

[A-Schwarzenegger]

89. It isn't a mystery to anybody:

you want them codgers to eat organic, do yoga,
& swallow those SS cuts like good little codgers,
and you don't want Obama to win.

[Fire1]

90. Whatever. Have a nice day. n/t

[A-Schwarzenegger]

91. You, too, kid.

:)

[WorseBeforeBetter]

92. And not have sex.

Shoot me now.

[LiberalAndProud]

81. Are you being disingenuous here?

Most people aren't able to take early retirement. People born in 1960 have to work until the age of 67 to qualify for full benefits. That's 67. Medicare eligibility still starts at the age of 65, early retirement or not. Raising the age is irresponsible, unjust and unnecessary.

But you're fine. You've got it all worked out. Jeebus.

[Fire1]

85. Coming out and getting SS at 62 is not "early retirement." The

people who WAIT until 67, get FULL benefits. Jeebus is right.

[B Calm]

82. Recent studies show if you retire early you live longer.

[Fire1]

83. Oh hell naw! Don't say that!! Run for cover!!! n/t

[Manifestor_of_Light]

93. I wish they would reduce Medicare eligibility to 55 then I could get it.

I'm 56 and have some chronic health problems but they won't kill me immediately, like hypertension and allergies and a dead thyroid.

I may have heart trouble, I have an irregular heart beat which is easy to hear on my BP monitor.

I couldn't get a job anyway, with three degrees including a doctorate in law. I also need more sleep than a lot of people because of my dead thyroid and having to take thyroid hormone, and have vague aches and pains.

I can't stand up for long periods of time. I have foot and ankle edema every day.

On edit: No insurance by the way. Will have to check into my state's insurance plan for a quote.

[LooseWilly]

96. My mom died at 61 while getting ready to go to work in the morning...

stressed by the prospect of hoarding enough money for retirement and gobbling pain killers for her arthritis to make it through the long days in order to keep her output high enough so she wouldn't be laid off before she could collect social security.

Age is only a state of mind when your body isn't a wreck because ... of your age. The idea of trying to encourage seniors to put off collecting social security in order to work longer, and the implication that collecting on the benefits of social programs that one has paid into for decades is a cop-out of some sort... offends me.

" ... I'm very glad baby boomers don't have the mind set of our parents and grandparents." ?? Do me a favor and go fuck yourself...

Seniors who want to work can feel free. Sure, in this economy, they're taking the jobs of teenagers and possibly others whose career work has been completely exported to China or India or somewheres... but that's their choice.

But, for fuck's sake, stop trying to proclaim this as some sort of new fad, thusly justifying things like raising the age of benefit distributions for Social Security and Medicare... meaning more poor old fuckers will die while getting ready for work in the morning like my mother did. Just shut your pie hole on the subject already, yeah?

[sabrina 1]

97. I think this comment attached to the article in the OP says it all about these

kinds of 'studies':

dodger41
5:37 AM on July 13, 2011

I was talking to a retired friend recently, and he mentioned that he enjoyed retirement because, for the first time since he was about 5 years old, his time was finally his own, to enjoy life as he saw fit. Not all of us belong to the "Work 'til you drop' school of thought, and I view these type of studies and articles as subtle propaganda from those who want to keep 'adjusting' the eligibility age for SS higher and higher.

Lol, we are always being manipulated. Perfect timing for that article, just when the usual suspects are getting ready to steal as much as they can from the American people again.

What gets me is that this is a democratic board where no one should even be whispering about destroying the Social Safety nets. I would expect to see it all over rightwing boards, but now it has started to find its way over to left forums. Clearly we have a lot of work to do to stop this rightwing garbage from infiltrating the left.

I suppose it was clever to get a Democratic president to do the dirty work they know a Republican president could never get done since the Left wouldn't let him. And I bet they counted on some on the 'left' turning a blind eye if a Democratic president were to do it. We'll see.