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Democrats Groovy New Plan to Cut Social Security: Don’t Call It “Cuts”

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:01 PM
Original message
Democrats Groovy New Plan to Cut Social Security: Don’t Call It “Cuts”
Democrats Groovy New Plan to Cut Social Security: Don’t Call It “Cuts”
By: Jane Hamsher
July 8, 2011

Democrats are all unanimous in their opposition to “massive cuts” to Social Security, so they have decided to just call it something else. Brian Beutler at TPM reports:

What’s In A Name? Dems Support Social Security Benefit Cut — By Calling It Something Else
Social Security benefit cuts may be a bridge too far for House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D-CA). But what if Republicans and Democrats alike just agreed to refer to a benefit cut by another name.

That’s how key negotiators have decided to treat one policy proposal, popular in Washington, that would simultaneously raise tax revenues and reduce Social Security benefits. As explained at length here, the idea is to peg federal Cost of Living Adjustments to a new, stingier measure of inflation.




Democratic leadership apparently believes that you won’t be able to figure out what the chart above quite clearly represents: a benefit cut.

http://firedoglake.com/2011/07/08/democrats-groovy-new-plan-to-cut-social-security-dont-call-it-cuts/


-------------------------------------------



What’s In A Name? Dems Support Social Security Benefit Cut — By Calling It Something Else
By Brian Beutler
July 8, 2011

Experts say the new index (the so-called Chained Consumer Price Index) is a more realistic metric for measuring inflation's impact on peoples' behavior. But the fact remains that if the change goes through as part of a grand bargain to lower deficits and raise the debt limit, retirees will receive less money each month than they're currently promised.

"We make the determinations right now for benefits based upon CPIU," Rep. Jim Clyburn (D-SC), one of the Dems' principal debt limit negotiators. He's referring to the current index the government uses to calculate Social Security's Cost of Living Adjustment. And that's what they're talking about changing. "Now the question is will some other look at CPI make sense? And I think that it makes sense to look at it all to see what is an accurate account, a better way to determine benefits. I certainly wouldn't walk away from that kind of discussion."

Reducing the COLA is something top Obama administration officials have wanted to do for a long time.

"The Consumer Price Indices currently used for indexation employ an outdated procedure that overstate inflation," said Jason Furman, now the Deputy Director of the National Economic Council, in 2007 expert testimony before the Senate Budget Committee. "If all federal programs and taxes were switched to by the end of a decade the government would save more than $40 billion, with the bulk of the savings divided roughly equally between preventing de facto Social Security benefit increases and tax cuts that Congress never intended. Over time the savings would continue to grow."

Read the full article at:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/whats-in-a-name-dems-support-social-security-benefit-cut----by-calling-it-something-else.php






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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. Fuckem, can we default on all three branches of govt and start over?
All these options suck...I keep pressing the button for victory, but all I get is an ice cold bottle of failure-sauce. :(

Can we try a different vendor?
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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. I have already unequivocally warned all my elected officials that any
benefit cut, regardless of how disguised, whether age increase or whatever, will result in my active opposition to them in the next election.

I do vote, and I have not missed an election since 1968.

This is my single issue.
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ProfessionalLeftist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. It is also mine. It's where I draw MY damn line. n/t
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
11. +1
Edited on Fri Jul-08-11 03:22 PM by woo me with science
Any "Democrat" who would cut SS, Medicare, or Medicaid is not a Democrat I can support in any way. Primary time.
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indepat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
86. Many kudos
;) :patriot:
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Fuck Jane Hamsher...nt
Sid
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jaxx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:07 PM
Original message
+1
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
46. -1000
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
59. +1001
Now what?
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. Simple.
1000-1001=(-1)
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Pholus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. The use of profanity underlines the lack of any better response to the topic. nt

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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. Wahhhh, the bad man swore!...nt
sid
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Pholus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Are you *really* a bad man? nt
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. "You want the truth!? You can't handle the truth!"
Joker.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 05:31 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 10:08 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 01:59 AM
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. What? No personal opinions on chained COLA?
That was the ISSUE raised in the OP.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:26 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:25 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:46 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:53 PM
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
38. The personal attacks on Jane only enamour you with like minded
people who hate her but borders on a point of the ridiculous. But it's a nifty way to change the subject I suppose.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:34 PM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 05:28 PM
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45. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:27 PM
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Maven Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
58. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Truth hurts.
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
81. Fuck right wing "Democrats". (this is, those that cut and destroy liberal & progressive policy)
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d_b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
82. no u
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #3
87. that's not much of a response
Edited on Sat Jul-09-11 03:20 PM by hfojvt
the trouble is that I think she is full of crap.

Should we really call it a benefit cut?

What is really happening is this

age ** monthly benefit
65 *** $1,000
66 *** $1,030
67 *** $1,061
68 *** $1,093
69 *** $1,125
70 *** $1,159
and so on

That is what Hamsher wants to call a 'cut'. Suddenly a slower growth rate becomes a cut.

As I understand it, the difference is between wage-inflation and price-inflation. Historically wages have risen, on average, faster than prices. For my own example. When I started my job in 2002 it paid $10.69 an hour. According to the inflation calculator that is now $13.43 an hour. However, my current wage is $14.27 an hour. So I have an extra 83 cents an hour in purchasing power that I didn't have in 2002 (at least in theory. In practice, I will bet the cost of health insurance has gone up much more than the CPI, leaving me with less.)

Workers gain over the cost of goods, because, supposedly, of increasing productivity, but why should retirees also gain? Why shouldn't their pension merely keep pace with the cost of goods and services instead of keeping pace with wages? I get a gain because I am working for it, why should they get the same gain?

Of course, one huge trouble is that this should have been done years ago, but was not because of the political power of the senior lobby. The trouble is now when I say we and they, that I will soon be a they, and one of the people getting a smaller return on my social security taxes, which are already a very crappy investment, paying an average return of about 2%.

But even so, I do not see why pensions should keep up with wages instead of keeping up with prices. You cannot claim to be worse off if your pension only buys you just as much as it did ten years ago. That's not a step down. Maybe a step down from unlimited expectations, but not a step down.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Far out man!!1!
:smoke:
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DJ13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. The Consumer Price Indices currently used for indexation ..."
"... employ an outdated procedure that overstate inflation,"


After two straight years of no COLA under the existing CPI it takes some real balls to lie that that inflation was overstated in factoring the COLA.
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Which is a clear indication that the proposed "new" CPI will be even worse than the current one!

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
67. Especially when any $1 anyone had pre-W is now worth 50 cents -- !!!
As I presume we all know -- ?

Removing COLA's -- gimmicking the CPI -- which has been going on a long, long time --

is just another way to impoverish seniors while preserving the SS Surplus Slush fund

for elites!!

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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
7. As long as it's not slashing!
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:19 PM
Response to Original message
8. Seems we retirees have a promised baseline monthly income that won't change. It'll remain the base.
What looks up for discussion is how our annual COLA increases to that set baseline are figured.

One year I got a pretty good COLA. Last two I got none under the system's formula. But my baseline benefit never decreased - my basic benefit has always remained the same. That was set from when I first went on Soc Security.

I think that's the confusion here, fueled by some of the terminology being used in the media. Looks as though politicians want to discuss a different COLA formula for scheduled annual increases in the baseline monthly rate.

I realize the press is often more about a headline that content, but the COLA discussion is one I'd like to see explained more fully. And for all our benefit, more as a stand alone discussion to support making an informed decision in the political arena.

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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. Future cost of living increases will be reduced using a new formula.

It's really that simple and that's why Republicans might go for it.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
37. I think the idea is to go after CPI / COLA changes. That's the crux, no?
There's more of an informational curve to meet there for print and internet media. But, imho, the greater fact based info available fosters the greater, more effective political involvement. We need to take the "some say" style discussion out of this issue, for one. And I mean that either as a party partisan, a loyal opposition or a neutral health care advocate.

We all realize these decisions have real world results. And I think it's upon us to take that lead.

:hi:
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. There are at least three other measures to cut Social Security benefits that are "on the table".

Increase the early and full retirement age to qualify for benefits which would decrease the total benefit payout to recipients.

"Means test" benefits.

Tighten the eligibility requirements for Social Security disability benefits.

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Pholus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
23. Kind of reminds me of a really bad old joke from the 80's.
So this millionaire guy gets cancer and decides to go to one of those cryogenic storage services. After 100 years they can not only cure the cancer but they can thaw him out so they do. The first thing he wants to do is find out what his investments are worth -- he gets on the phone and asks his brokerage. They tell him his investments are worth 490 billion dollars. The guy starts dancing around the room until the robot operator says: "Deposit 90 billion dollars for the call, please."

Yup, you still make the same amount of money. 'tis a shame everything will be more expensive though...

Anyway, if that's the plan to save money it seems like a lot of enron-style accounting to me.
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
29. I am not concerned so much about the COLA.
I have been receiving SS benefits for the past 6 years. I am concerned that those monthly benefits will be cut. I receive $1400 a month minus $110 for Medicare. I could not live on anything less than that.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
40. I'm in a similar boat. Don't think we'll lose any of that. Medicaid may depend on your State though
That's a Fed/State partnership.
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Renew Deal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
12. This has already been debunked
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Dept of Beer Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #12
22. It's not debunked until the ink is dried on the bill.

I look forward to seeing and believing.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
72. NO, it absolutely has NOT been debunked. In fact, just the opposite.
Edited on Sat Jul-09-11 02:04 AM by woo me with science
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FLAprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
14. "We are circumcising social security."
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WillyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Oh That'll Get This Thread Goin...
:evilgrin:
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Jack Rabbit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
24. No, Obama isn't Bush
But using euphemisms like that is still Orwellian and I don't like any more now than I did eight years ago.



Branch of the National Union of Journalists, 1933 form Wikipedia (Public Domain)

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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
25. Because anonymous sources should be trusted over top Democrats like Pelosi and Frank who deny this.
But hey, if useful idiots repeat this over and over, then the propaganda machine is satisfied another day.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #25
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
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Better Believe It Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
27. Nancy Pelosi doesn't rule out changing the way the CPI is measured.
mmmmm Saying two different things on the same day. Flip,flop. BBI

Pelosi Reassures House Democrats Inflation Measure Switch Not Likely
By Kristina Peterson and Corey Boles, Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
July 8, 2011

WASHINGTON -(Dow Jones)- Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi (D., Calif.) reassured angry House Democrats that a proposal to change a key measure of inflation linked to Social Security was not likely to be part of a debt ceiling deal, lawmakers said Friday.

Pelosi calmed Democrats upset over a proposal to change how the Consumer Price Index is calculated that would curb Social Security benefits, dimming the prospects of an idea once floated as an area of bipartisan support.

But speaking at a press conference shortly after the meeting with her caucus broke up, Pelosi didn't rule out changing the way the CPI is measured. She did say that any savings that were generated for the federal government as a result would have to be reinvested in the Social Security program. Pelosi also said it's possible that the move could be phased in over time, accompanied by protection for the poorest Americans.

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2011/07/pelosi-on-key-social-security-cut-the-dirty-rotten-devils-in-the-dirty-rotten-details.php
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Deleted message
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Good catch. I missed that altogether.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Deleted message
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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #32
60. You missed clicking on the link altogether too.
:shrug:

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
30. Deleted message
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Faryn Balyncd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
35. Why "cut" anything? It's (sl)easier to just cook the books by (once again) rigging CPI/COLA....



After the Boskin Commission in the 90's, the CPI/COLA calculations were rigged, resulting in our current "no inflation" figures (which have already reduced COLA'S to zero for at least 2 years.

The "chained CPI" concept is, by definition, extremely flexible, depending on at what point manipulators decide that a "substitution effect" should be inserted. Since they are no ;onger required to compare apples to apples, the "chained CPI" substitution effect allows manipulators virtually infinite ability to FURTHER rig the CPI/COLA figures downward in the future without new legilation.
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peace4ever Donating Member (434 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
36. FIX or SHORE UP or PROTECT or STRENGHTEN are the preferred terms
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
39. Why not? Works for ''War.''
We've always been at war with Iraq.
We've never been at war with Iraq.
It's a friendly occupation.
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chill_wind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 05:24 AM
Response to Reply #39
75. It's all of that and none of that. It's a Kinetic Military Action! n/t
Edited on Sat Jul-09-11 05:25 AM by chill_wind
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democracy1st Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 04:21 PM
Response to Original message
41. K & R
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
48. How is an increase a "cut"?
the purpose of the Cost of Living Adjustment is to adjust for increases in the Cost of Living or inflation. If the current method of calculation inflation is wrong, then they should change it. In any case, it's still an increase, not a cut.
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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #48
69. The current method shows NO inflation for the past two years, so no
increase was allowed to retirees for the past two years.

You know, and I know, that there has been inflation (gasoline,anyone? Just to name one).

And so when there is inflation, but no increase in income, your money buys less. That's a cut.
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johnaries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Actually, that's not exactly the way it currently works.
Edited on Sat Jul-09-11 02:55 AM by johnaries
It's based on the 3rd quarter and compared to the 3rd quarter of the last COLA. We actually had deflation in the 3rd quarter of 2009 according to the CPI, hence no COLA. Although we did have inflation during 2010, the 3rd quarter average still did not come up to the 3rd quarter average of 2008. Hence, again, no COLA.

So, yes, we have had several periods of inflation BUT we also had some periods of deflation that offset the inflation from 2008-2010 3rd quarters. the average CPI in 2008 was 215.495 compared to 214.136 for 2010. Therefore, the dollar bought more in 2010 than it did in 2008, thanks to the deflation we saw in 2009. The inflation you're thinking of (gas prices, anyone?) happened after 3rd quarter 2010. We're currently in the middle of the 3rd quarter of 2011, so those figures are not all in yet.
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plumbob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #73
78. The real problem with the CPI is that it does not include food nor energy
prices. They're "too volatile", in other words, they accurately reflect that the dollar buys less every year for many years and that deflation is a simple myth in this country.

When housing prices fall, that lowers the CPI, even though most Americans do not buy a new house in any given month, and housing prices are included in the form of a mythical rent number.

So what I should have said is that the CPI is designed to not show increases if possible and tiny ones if not otherwise possible.

http://www.bls.gov/cpi/
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21st Century FDR Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
50. Well, what did you expect?
These are the people who brought you mandatory payments to corporate criminals and called it "health care reform".
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Deleted message
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21st Century FDR Donating Member (398 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. I'm not really FDR, you know
I do wish he would come back though. And bring his cousin Teddy with him. Between the trust busting and the Rand groupies trying to give away the national parks he created, I have a feeling he would be "carrying a big stick" and smacking them upside the head with it.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. .
:spray:
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #50
85. You're not alone 21stFDR, I know it might seem like it here, but you're not.
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:44 PM
Response to Original message
55. keep that anti-dem campaign going by pushing hamshers lies, BBI
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theFrankFactor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
84. Hamsher, anti-dem? LOL! Yeah, attacking your base and going after social programs-THAT'S PRO DEM!
Edited on Sat Jul-09-11 12:24 PM by theFrankFactor
I swear, it really would be hilarious if not for the fact that these circle D ranchers and actually helping to erase as much Progressive progress as possible under the umbrella of the "Democratic" party.
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
57. This in incessant framing campaign is tedious.
Do you do anything else?

Seriously....
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #57
66. that's a rhetorical question, right?
;)
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blue neen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #57
76. How true.
Tedious, constant, and repetitive.
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Dept of Beer Donating Member (957 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
61. Getting back to the OP at hand...
kick.


The discussion should continue and is worthy of a debate not based in personal barbs.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Deleted message
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Harry Callahan Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 07:15 PM
Response to Original message
63. It's a bit like Obama's "not war" in Libya.
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blkmusclmachine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-08-11 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
65. It's change-licious.
:puke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
70. Deleted message
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Tx4obama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
74. Unrec'd due to having to see the name Jane Hamsher on my screen n/t
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
77. k&r
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blindpig Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
79. 'D' is for dissemble.

The only surprise is how little they try to hide it.

k&r
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
80. A Big Kick &Rec!
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divvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-11 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
83. Oh, now you've done it .... the TWEED HAT'S will say we're whining.
It must be Obama is playing 8-dimmensional chess again. Why does it always have a simple-to-explain outcome?

can you say "CHOPPING BLOCK"?
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