My guess is that Loughner is psychotic

[cali]

that's how his ramblings present. Was he influenced by the wingnut talk? Don't know. It's certainly possible, but he absolutely comes off as delusional.

[WingDinger]

1. How then, do you think the average FR poster would sound with only their juicy parts quoted?

[cali]

7. huh?

the average freeper doesn't come off as psychotic, but as hateful, petty, mean spirited, etc. there's a difference. I spent years and years working with psychotic folks. No, I'm not a psychiatrist. I worked as an advocate for those with severe mental illness.

[WingDinger]

10. Any FR poster, after commiting the same acts, and viewing their posting, etc, would not appear to yo

you as psychotic?

[CTyankee]

42. I was temporarily and briefly psychotic ("ICU pyschosis") and I

hallucinated after my 3rd surgery in 3 weeks, probably caused by sleep deprivation. I "saw" things that weren't there. Is this what happens to people like the shooter...do they actually interpret reality very differently from what it actually is?

[readmoreoften]

12. Nothing like this. FR posters are mean and vicious. This person is schizophrenic/delusional.

He is clearly mentally ill. Certainly right-wing rhetoric influenced his actions. I also think any kind of strong rhetoric could've done it. If we had real health care in this country--real care for veterans--this wouldn't've happened. I don't think people understand the depth of psychosis people are experiencing after engagement with the US military. I've even seen people have PTSD BEFORE deployment. It's that bad.

[Cetacea]

22. He seems perfectly normal to me.

It's the normals who fight in wars and commit murders. "Crazy" people are generally too withdrawn to be violent.

[WingDinger]

38. Aggression, seems to be the new normal. And if they took your country

not to mention your rock and roll, you would be jusified by any action to stop, or even slow the ENEMY. Thereby giving the insane a glorious ending, and eternal relevance. The right wing is trolling for the insane, that ups the threat factor. And lets be real here, the intent, of the summer of insane, was to threaten all left of Beck. With fascist payback. There are many out there that you would determine, psychotic. And they have been hearing the dog whistle, for two years now. The Republicans thought that the crazy's wouldnt actually kill. Just make being a dem like Jews in Hitler Germany. Well, next to subsistance farmers forced from Mexico, to feed their families.

[readmoreoften]

41. No. Poor people are usually the ones who enlist so that they can go to college.

And then they become crazy. If you think Jared Loughtner--someone who hallucinates and rambles using incoherent syllogisms is "perfectly normal" then you must hang around a lot of schizophrenics. Whether or not he was influenced by right-wing rhetoric, he is clearly mentally ill. And schizophrenics are not usually reclusive. Why would they be, they aren't aware that anything is wrong with them. They think everyone else is fucked up.

[WingDinger]

23. Certainly all true, but I think you mihgt find most of them would be to you psychotic.

What does that mean, as far as punishment? or prevention?

[cali]

29. because they're clueless about the actual condition.

[WingDinger]

34. My business partner developed shizophrenia. They denied him, ignored any treatment

and kicked him to the street. He chose to jump off the Coronado bridge. I know all about paraniod shizophrenia. In fact, all lot of the UFO types are schizo.

[Faygo Kid]

2. Reminds me of Arthur Bremer - Wallace's shooter.

About the same age, and a loner who was bright but nuts: "After graduating from high school, from September 1970 Bremer briefly attended Milwaukee Area Technical College where he studied aerial photography, art, writing and psychology. He dropped out after just one semester in college, where he was recalled as a "strange, aloof and argumentative" student who "rarely talked to anybody."

Fascinating stuff: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Bremer

[Cleita]

3. Of course he was influenced to act in a tragic manner, which is why the

media needs to be responsible about using trigger words and phrases. If they can't be responsible, then we need laws that outlines what is unacceptable and that presents truths instead of hyperbole, but then you and I have disagreed about this in the past. The result is that in trying to avoid censorship, we get censorship anyway. Their message is out there, but ours isn't.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cleita]

31. No but an effort can be made.

No effort has been made up until now. I mean I'm shocked with what is said on Fox News on an hourly basis seven days a week.

[bluestate10]

35. Hate speech and hate imagery is not sane.

Palin, Beck and Limbaugh are practitioners of hate speech and hateful images. They know exactly what they are trying to bring about. Why should they be let off the hook?

[readmoreoften]

47. I agree. He's likely schizophrenic, but there are aggravating factors: military involvement,

a lack of reasonable/rational left-wing explanations for pain and suffering in the media (e.g. corrupt insurance system killing us=accurate, govt. death panels=irrational) and of course the ever-present right-wing propaganda machine.

[Sparkly]

4. I thought the same thing when I saw his YouTube greeting. nt

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

5. yes, obviously he was delusion

but my thinking is this - A certain percentage of the population will always be delusional, or criminal or whatever. Even if it is .0006% of the population, that population will be susceptible to violent rhetoric. Keeping your audience in a panicked frenzy can come to no good end.

Whether he listened to the righwing spewers or not, the leaders of the pub party need to publicly denounce this type of speech, and just ratchet it down a little.

imho only, of course.

[RZM]

6. I think we'll know a lot more in the coming days

Right now, all I can say for sure is that he's a disturbed individual.

[mavigozler]

60. isn't that really the automatic or obvious characterization of anyone committing political violence?

[Cetacea]

8. Was he gay, too?

Your type of guessing feeds the notion that criminals are always mentally ill.

[cali]

14. No. I'm basing my guess on his writings and my familiarity with the writings of those who are in

a psychotic state.

[Cetacea]

28. I've seen that type of writing from artists.

But I don't want to get into a long discussion about it. I just read an MSNBC report that puts a lot of the blame on right wing hysterics, a good thing.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40978517/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[WingDinger]

9. There is great utility in calling it all one lone insane freak, not afiliated.

[cali]

11. that may well be true, but as someone who spent

a decade working with people with severe and persistent mental illness, I was struck by how familiar his writings felt. I've read reams of stuff like that penned by those who are frankly psychotic- which doesn't mean that they can't come off as sane much of the time.

[readmoreoften]

19. Absolutely agreed. Anyone who has experience dealing with schizophrenics/affectives

would find this very familiar. Still--would this person be in the same condition today if they weren't enlisted or surrounded by rightwing rhetoric? Probably not.

[cali]

26. oh, I'm not denying that he may have been influenced by right wing rhetoric-

or he may have been influenced by The Phantom Toll Booth- or both or a myriad of other possible influences. I'm simply noting the frank psychosis presented in his scribbling.

[Mike 03]

13. The line between ideology and psychosis grows thinner and thinner.

I don't see how you can make that assertion, as much as I respect your posts.

Mainstream beliefs have progressively become more delusional--"Intelligent Design", there is no such thing as Global Warming. These are irrational beliefs held by tens of millions of Americans who are otherwise functional.

[cali]

18. I can make it because I spent a decade working with people who

were severely and persistently mentally ill, the majority of them psychotic. There are distinctive patterns in psychotic speech- and that includes writing.

[Mike 03]

21. Okay. I'm too tired and depressed to argue. NT

[bluestate10]

37. Delusional people are the easiest to induce to kill people.

The shooter had an abundance of hate speech and hate images to draw from. I have no idea of why you are working so desperately to untangle virulent haters such as Beck, Palin and Limbaugh from this situation.

[datasuspect]

15. we'll need scientific evidence and a press conference including the shooter, his treatment team, and

an opposing viewpoint before we can claim he is psychotic.

we need medical proof that he is in fact schizophrenic. anything else is speculation.

[Crystal Clarity]

16. Wondering if this is him... A pic from The Arizona Daily Star

w/a guy by the same name. Shown here as a volunteer at a book festival. {Link takes a long time to load}

http://azstarnet.com/events/collection_aebeb63c-2f9e-11df-9021-001cc4c002e0.html?photo=8

[Little Star]

36. Probably. Guess we'll have to wait and see though.

[WinkyDink]

17. Very precise targets for a psychotic.

[cali]

20. what make you think that someone in a psychotic state can't be precise?

Simply not true.

[Thunderstruck]

24. From one of his videos on YT;

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

[cali]

27. Circular nonsensical thinking. Classic of its kind.

[bluestate10]

30. News flash.

Delusional people are typically the VERY people that are most impacted by and act out hate speech and hate images. Right wingers like Palin and Beck knew exactly what they were doing, put the seed out there and let some nut pick it up and act on it. Don't write the shooter off as a isolated nut, that is just the narrative the the Right wants the Left to swallow whole.

[cali]

33. where did you get that idea?

that's actually not true. Again, I'm not saying that he wasn't influenced by wingnut rhetoric, but your claim is not factual.

[bluestate10]

40. No. YOU name one assassin in history that was not psychotic.

And was not influenced by hateful people. Name ONE!!! I will not fall into your game, you are making the big claim, you prove your point.

[cali]

46. huh? there's no evidence that I'm aware of in psychiatric literature

that supports the claim that all assassins were/are psychotic. Psychotic is a very specific medical condition. You seem to be using the term casually.

[bluestate10]

50. Psychosis.

Wilkes-Booth was psychotic, so was Garfield's killer. The killer of JFK, the killer of RFK, all psychotics that were driven by hate speech because of something their targets had done. All were driven by hate speech by individuals that did not actually pull the trigger.

[cali]

52. evidence please.

[bluestate10]

61. You provide evidence to support your claim. The historical record

supports mine. What support do you have for yours?

[readmoreoften]

53. Psychotics are not by definition "influenced by hateful people." Someone can be in a psychosis and

very placid and calm. Your logic is circular: someone who politically assassinates is psychotic because they have assassinated someone. Psychosis means psychologically unable to process sensory data in a way that corresponds to the material world: i.e. seeing birds that are not present materially.

An example of political assassinations not driven by psychosis: any attempt by an 18th or 19th century Republican (by Republican I mean someone who is against the concept of monarchy) committing regicide in order to end the order of a royal family. It's not "hateful" or "psychotic" to depose a monarch through assassination. If they are left alive they can always return to destroy the new democracy.

[woo me with science]

32. "The government is implying mind control and brainwash on the people by controlling grammar."

Sure looks that way from here.

[Odin2005]

39. Schizophrenia usually starts in ones late teens or early 20s.

Would not surprise me.

[cali]

43. yep. and it could be psychosis

from bipolar or drug induced or whatever.

[bluestate10]

45. All assassins in history have been mentally deficient.

Every one of them was influenced by hateful speech and/or actions. So what is your point?

[cali]

48. nonsense. some assassins do so for monetary gain.

and mentally deficient is NOT the same thing as being psychotic.

[bluestate10]

58. Name a historical assassin that killed for money.

You blow claims out of your ass, back them up. You have repeatedly attempted to dismiss based upon your alleged expertise. Again, I ask you, why are you so desperate not to hold the Palin's and Beck's of this country responsible for the actions of the killer today? A random psychotic is a person that goes into a random mall and shoot it up, this shooter knew exactly who he was hunting and who to shoot.

[TBF]

44. And this is what happens when folks don't have health care ...

and when they are incited by the media. Of course he's crazy.

[cali]

49. yes.

[B2G]

51. How do you know he doesn't have healthcare? n/t

[readmoreoften]

54. Not "health insurance." Health care.

If he's a vet he has Tricare and Tricare is terrible and particularly terrible on issues of mental illness.

[LisaL]

55. I don't see any evidence supporting the idea that he is a vet.

[shanti]

57. well, he didn't have a job

(from his myspace rantings)

[B2G]

62. He lived with his parents

Chances are he was on their coverage. He was only 22.

[backscatter712]

56. I agree - he's seriously mentally ill.

His videos are full of the kind of nonsense that comes out of the mind of a person who's got some seriously bad wiring in his head.

[Call Me Wesley]

59. Great thread!

I love when the psychiatrists experts chime in; always something to learn from. Makes wikipedia blush. :hi: