Why I left America

[Democrats Ramshield]

(Written by an American expat living in the European Union.)

The truth is I just couldn't take being lied to by the American plutocrat owned corporate media anymore knowing that there are an estimated 59 million medically uninsured fellow Americans out there. It just became too painful for me to take anymore. By contrast everyone you look at it in the European Union has access to medical from cradle-to-grave by right of law. It's considered to be a human right. Why isn't it a human right in America?

Have we in America lost our humanity? As the American plutocrat owned media works at desensitizing us at the plight of 59 million fellow Americans who are medically uninsured that we should step over them, just like when media desensitizes us to step over our fellow Americans who are homeless. But one of the things that really did it for me was understanding that in America there are schools for homeless children. This gives new meaning to the word, only in America, for no other major industrialized advanced nation has schools set aside especially for homeless children.

School caters to homeless children

By Maggie Rodriguez and Lisa Weiss, Special for USA TODAY

SACRAMENTO — Justin Bisher, 11, attends one of the few schools in the country dedicated to homeless children, and that's where he met Lazarus the cat.

"If we're feeling sad at school, Lazarus hops up on our desks and cuddles with us," says Justin, one of an estimated 1.5 million homeless children in the U.S., according to the National Center on Family
Homelessness.

Justin is a fifth-grader at the Mustard Seed School, a free, private school for homeless 3- to 15-year-olds funded by grants and donations.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-05-21-homeless_N.htm

I am greatly relieved to know that America no longer executes inmates who are believed to be mentally disabled. Although some advocates who believe that America should ban the death penalty say that developed mentally disabled people are still on death row in America. Why is this allowed to happen and why has this been allowed to happen?

US Supreme Court bans execution of mentally retarded

By Andrew Buncombe in Washington

The US Supreme Court made a landmark decision yesterday when it ruled that the execution of the mentally retarded was unconstitutional. Its decision that the punishment was "cruel and unusual" will have a huge and immediate effect in more than 30 US states that still put to death prisoners with an IQ of below 70.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-supreme-court-bans-execution-of-mentally-retarded-646006.html

Is this the America that I grew up in? The country that I pledged allegiance to the flag everyday at school and the country whose military I served. When exactly was it that America was allowed to lose its way? Was it when the Fairness doctrine was axed? Was it when the prison population in the mid 70s was increased from 200,000 to 300,000 to now over 2 million nearly 40 years later thanks to minimum sentencing guidelines that took discretion away from the judges? Speaking of judges, they've become politicians raising money to win political campaigns so that they can buy media ads and further enrich the American plutocrat owned media whose ability to lie to the American people knows no end.



I became exhausted at the idea for paying for tax breaks for America's rich by increasing the national deficit on working people. I tell you it's enough to make you want to leave the country and stick the fine folks at Fox Nation with the bill for the national deficit.



Like many of you out there I gave it my all, phone banked, I door knocked and gave money to progressive politicians, only to find as soon as they're elected they were bought by the K Street lobbyists. I felt betrayed, disgusted, exhausted. I felt ready to leave America for good, wherein my next vote would be with my feet!

Guardian.co.uk , Monday 6 June 2011
Decline and fall of the American empire
by Larry Elliott, Economics editor

The economic powerhouse of the 20th century emerged stronger from the Depression. But faced with cultural decay, structural weaknesses and reliance on finance, can the US do it again?

America clocked up a record last week. The latest drop in house prices meant that the cost of real estate has fallen by 33% since the peak – even bigger than the 31% slide seen when John Steinbeck was writing The Grapes of Wrath.

Unemployment has not returned to Great Depression levels but at 9.1% of the workforce it is still at levels that will have nerves jangling in the White House. The last president to be re-elected with unemployment above 7.2% was Franklin Delano Roosevelt.

The US is a country with serious problems. Getting on for one in six depend on government food stamps to ensure they have enough to eat. The budget, which was in surplus little more than a decade ago, now has a deficit of Greek-style proportions. There is policy paralysis in Washington.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/jun/06/us-economy-decline-recovery-challenges

Der Spiegel - Rise of the Rupee, Real and Renminbi
Rival Currencies Take Aim at Dollar's Dominance

By Christian Reiermann - 05/10/2011

There are many reasons, both short-term and long-term, for the decline of the greenback, a currency once coveted around the world. The fiscal policies of US President Barack Obama and his predecessors cast doubt over whether the US will ever be able to repay its debts. The rating agency Standard & Poor's has already threatened to downgrade the credit rating of the only remaining superpower.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/0,1518,761398,00.html

For time in America, I stopped listening to the American media altogether. I turned instead to the international media only to find that I couldn't get any local news. So it is that I am quite grateful for the Daily Kos to be able to read citizen journalist's accounts from state and regional groups. In order to support local news, some friends and I have launched the Virtual America group project. But the truth is that isn't enough, we need to encourage local news diaries from our fellow kossacks. You see because unlike in the European Union, there is no state owned media in America. There is no equivalent of the BBC in our United States. That is why the blogosphere is so important because it isn't owned wholly by the corporatists yet.

We will never be able to fix what ails America because we can never find out about it because the corporatists are killing local news. So we can't really organize around local issues to win local elections as Americans have in the past.

nterestingly enough in the European Union, this problem doesn't exist because here the corporatist media has competition from state owned media through out all countries in the great social democracies of Western Europe who regularly report on the shocking deficit in the American social safety net that allows millions of Americans to go hungry to the point of qualifying for food stamps, that allows 59 million Americans to go without medical insurance, that allows 132 million to go without dental insurance, that allows 60 million to go without paid sick leave.

study finds 45,000 deaths annually linked to lack of health coverage


Uninsured, working-age Americans have 40 percent higher death risk than privately insured counterparts

http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2009/09/new-study-finds-45000-deaths-annually-linked-to-lack-of-health-coverage/

Why is it that the for-profit plutocrat American corporate media will not report that the things that I just listed do not exist in any country in the European Union where everyone is medically insured, everyone has paid sick leave, everyone has paid maternity leave, everyone has paid annual leave, everyone has access to some sort of a dental plan and prescription medication plan.

While we can all be proud Americans, surely we do not have to be proud of the broken American social safety net. There we could, should and must do better. One way to start is for local people to publish their accounts so we can actually find out what is happening in America, instead of being told about the latest excesses of Paris Hilton and Linsey Lohan or fallen sport stars like Barry Bonds, all of whom are millionaires as are half of all the people in the US Congress. Where does that leave the rest of us? When is it enough?

There are 5 million American expats living abroad, every one of which have their own story. I have just told you my story. As a member of Global Expats at the Daily Kos I know there are many of our fellow kossacks living outside the United States. Yet we are also part of the American story. We are also America because modern America can no longer be defined by the Rio Grande river in the south and in the 49th parallel to the north. Modern day America cannot be defined merely by geography but rather by it's people and I mean all of them. That includes the 5 million American expats living all around the world (1.2 million living in Europe). We need to hear from you. We need to hear your American story of how it is that socialized medicine works for you and your American family in order to combat the lies and deception of the Tea Party.

Tell us how your dental plan works and how you receive subsidized child care and subsidized elder care and how your college tuition in the EU is almost free of charge. Tell us about what it's like to receive double the amount of paid leave that you do in the States. Tell us what it's like not to worry about paid sick leave or not having access to dental care. Tell us what it's like to look around and know that everyone you see is fully medically insured. Tell us what it's like to not to have to go to sleep at night and worry about losing your house to medical bankruptcy and having the corporatists steal your life savings by ripping off your pension plan. Tell us what's like to have escaped from the plutocrat owned American media. Tell us about your American dream in the European Union, in Asia, in Canada, in Australia, in South America, in Africa, on Pacific islands or on the Indian sub-continent. Tell us what its like to receive local political reports from state owned media about the lives of real people who were able to politically organize and tell us about how you worry about the folks back home, family and friends. Tell us how guilty you feel living under a secure social safety net while folks that you care about back home are being economically hurt by the American plutocracy whose intent is on breaking unions and hurting working class Americans. Tell us what its like to live in countries that have low crime, clean streets, good public transport and no American style national debt created by tax breaks for the rich because their citizens believe that there is no such thing as a free lunch and they are prepared therefore to pay their fair share of taxes because that's what you have to do if you want good infrastructure, good schools, a good medical system, a strong social safety net and hope for the future (both for yourself and your children).

-------------------------------------------------

The new America is no longer just an issue of geography but therefore cannot be defined to the Rio Grande River to the south and the 49th parallel to the north. America instead has to be defined by its people, over 5 million of whom choose to live abroad. American expats represent the American pioneer spirit that won the West. We love home, family and friends, we vote absentee and some are even members of the Daily Kos community. To that end, I invite you to join Global Expats at the Daily kos and share with us what your expat experience has been. Thank you for supporting this diary.

(Cross posted by author from the Daily Kos.)

[femrap]

1. Are Americans

going to be the 'new illegal immigrants/aliens?'

[BrendaBrick]

5. It would appear so according to a yesterday's segment on TDS/Jon Stewart:

Entitled: "Swede Dreams: Made In America"

http://www.hulu.com/watch/254797/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-swede-dreams-made-in-america

This is really scaring me now!!!!!!!!

[femrap]

12. The only jobs I see out there

are paying only $8 to $10/hour. It's the Decline of the American Empire.

[sabrina 1]

8. Or political refugees.

I can't decide whether it's worth staying to fight for or better to go somewhere else as so many once came here to escape political oppression.

We have spread the evil of greedy, unregulated Capitalism around the globe, but at least they are out in the streets over there. Here, even Democrats are attempting to try to defend the 'austerity' measures.

[fascisthunter]

2. The Dream isn't Over.... but this Country is going down

[Tveil]

3. I'm moving to Greece NT

[fascisthunter]

11. at least the Greek citizens have balls

and the wealthy who created the mess seem to all be the same sociopaths... real losers who do not love their own country's.

[MemeSmith]

4. In 1997, my American wife came to live with me in England...

In 2004, having started a family, and wondering where would be best to raise our kids, we emigrated to the USA.

In 2005, we emigrated back. We had been there only six weeks, when she, the US citizen, asked, "When can we go home?"

Health services (I won't call for profit health provision 'care') was a factor, but for me, the most frightening element was the utter misinformation of even enlightened and progressive people who relied on TV for their news.

Expected to work for 51 weeks of the year. (Came back and started a job with 25 days annual paid holiday)

55 hour working week (37 on return)

Exceptionalism - a complete lack of perspective of the true standing of the US in the world.

Endemic bigotry - a widespread aversion to diversity. 'Wierdo' was almost the most extreme insult. Conformism was the norm. In the UK, wierd is a compliment.

Also, endemic gullibility. British kids are cynical and suspicious. I find that to be healthy, a check and balance on the excesses of the spivs and shysters. I was shocked at what the average American would routinely believe and accept without question.

I know that it's better on the coasts, where the people can see the edge, but our options were limited at the time, and when we found ourselves sighing wistfully at a traffic roundabout on a Harry Potter film, we knew that we needed to come back.

Anyway, I almost kissed the ground at Manchester Airport, when we landed. I don't mean any disrespect to the US correspondents here, but I do consider myself extremely lucky that I was able to bring my family back to the UK.

[Romulox]

21. Britain is the country in Europe that is MOST like the US.

Similar in obesity, inequality, social mobility, etc. etc. You have the NHS, which is nice, but other than that, emigrating from the US to Britain is a mostly lateral move.

[MemeSmith]

25. That just shows how unlike the US Europe is

Britain is a post imperial nation. The US has yet to reach that point (although it is imminent).

I can only speak from our personal experience and repatriating to the UK was far from a lateral move. We are not greatly affected by the general issues of obesity, inequality or social mobility, but we are greatly affected by the issue of wierdness. We are wierd and in the UK this generally goes either unnoticed or actively celebrated.

In the US, we always had to be on our guard in case someone took exception to us simply being different.

Even people who would claim to be progressive and left leaning nevertheless had their cultural comfort zone and media programming. It's a nation with a fragile ego that is emotionally attached to the idea of being 'number one.' It's not healthy and whereas I am up for the political challenge of moving the situation forward, there was no way that I was going to submit my kids to years of discrimination over a political conviction.

As a father, my prime duty is to them.

[Romulox]

32. Like I said, most like the US: "We are not greatly affected by the general issues..."

You seem to have taken a bit of the US with you, though: "We are not greatly affected by the general issues of obesity, inequality or social mobility, but we are greatly affected by the issue of wierdness."

:shrug:

[MemeSmith]

75. Not sure what you mean here.

There are general similarities among some issues between the US and Britain, but these issues do not personally affect us. We don't eat a mainstream diet, so we're not among the number in each country that figures in the obese statistics. We are not personally troubled by inequality, due to our personal circumstances. My personal story is one of significant social mobility, so I don't fall into that category either.

We are, however, wierd, so the relative treatment of wierd people in each country is a major issue for us.

[Name removed]

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[anneboleyn]

71. My husband and I dream of moving to Wales -- Snowdonia. Someday, we hope.

It's out of reach right now, but we have dreams of the beautiful Welsh countryside.

[misanthrope]

109. Your problem was your location. I dare say...

...had you been in New York, New Orleans, San Francisco or Portland, Ore., among other cities, you likely wouldn't have experienced the ostracism you noticed.

I'm also at a loss regarding the embrace of diversity you claim to find in the UK but in the next breath talk about youth being cynical and suspicious. From my experience, there are often corollaries between suspicion (or paranoia) and prejudice.

Though I've never been to the UK myself, I have an old friend who has spent a good deal of his life there. Still visits with regularity and he often speaks of a certain arrogance he encounters in many Brits. He also tells me their racial attitudes aren't as enlightened as he would prefer.

Everyone's experiences are different, though and while no place is a paradise, I think most of us choose to see what we wish.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[MemeSmith]

26. I'll take a look, out of interest

Your suggested url doesn't work, but I'll track them down.

In the end, it's most likely that like most people in the world, they are people who are simply different to me and value different things.

At least, theirs is an informed perspective, so you have to respect at least that.

It will be interesting to see what they're about, but I can't spare too much time staring at people who aren't like me. That's most people, after all.

Thanks for the pointer.

[Name removed]

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[MemeSmith]

78. Interesting, but as I expected...

frequented by some people who don't agree with me. Also frequented by others who made exactly some of the points that I have made here.

Perhaps, again, my experiences have been distorted by personal circumstances. I live in the district that is consistently ranked second in the national quality of life survey, so I don't experience the things that many of the critics complain about.

They do make some good points, however:

Anti social behaviour - the pendulum has swung to an extreme by this, mostly by too much tolerance by authorities that were actually given the powers to deal with it and chose not to use them. It is a hot issue, however and I'm hoping for some improvement. (Not an issue where I live, incidentally)

Welfare fraud and cultural idleness - also tolerated for too long. New policies announced by govt. sound promising. Hope that they follow through.

Defence of the home - recent initiative announced by govt. to give residents statutory rights to use reasonable force to defend person and property. Good development.

Unfettered immigration - the last government were obscenely negligent, or at worst complicit, importing younger people to fund the retirement of aging natives, without understanding that a reduced population, as a result of declining birth rates, was a good thing. Not sure where this goes, or whether any government can have any major effect. My feeling is that economic cycles will make somewhere else more attractive and the economic migrants will move on.

On their complaints about high taxation, being a DUer, predictably, I don't agree. If anything, I'd like to see taxes higher and more done on infrastructure, care services, mental health, etc.

[Name removed]

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[MemeSmith]

84. El Paso Texas

My wife has lived in New Jersey, South Carolina, Colorado and Texas.

Among the things that I didn't agree with were that England is that chavs are everywhere, that you can't escape the yob culture, that taxes are too high, that the country is overrun with immigrants. There was some reasonable critical observation, but the most critical voices were complaining about things that seemed to be a personal perspective that I don't share, or perhaps worry about.

The most critical voice was a man who advised another ex pat to try to find an area of the US that spoke English. Now that I'm back, I'm glad that he's gone.

It's true that there are places in the US that are more diverse and easy to live in, but NYC has its own drawbacks and isn't a place where I personally would want to raise my kids, along with London, for similar reasons.

If I were to enjoy the same kind of small town life in the USA that I currently enjoy here, I could not expect even the same level of familiarity with diversity, never mind tolerance.

As I linked before, merely on the issue of my Atheism, I would be likely to experience much more extreme discrimination almost anywhere in the US than I could expect in the UK in all but the most extreme religious ghettoes.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/151241/10_scariest_states_to_be_an_atheist/?page=entire

[whathehell]

97. The only place in America you've ever lived was El Paso, Texas?!

Oh my.:rofl: I believe I could rest my case right there, especially

since half the places your wife has lived have been

in the Deep South, the last being...El Paso, Texas

You mention New York, as if that was the only place "familiar with the same level

of diversity, never mind tolerance" you require, another indication of your

naivete about and lack of exposure to this country.


It's hard to know where to start, but ummm....There IS life outside New York, New Jersey, Colorado, Texas and the Deep South.

We have FIFTY big states here in which, there are MANY, many "tolerant" and "diverse" cities,

the bulk of them being in the NORTHERN half of the country, the half that you and your wife, it seems, are,

in her case, only slightly familiar, and in your case, not at all.

This could require an entire thread of it's own, but, for starters, there are: Seattle, Chicago,

New Haven, Ct, Boston, MA, Philadelphia, Portland (Maine OR Oregon) New Orleans, Providence, RI

Santa Fe, NM, Taos, NM, the entire STATE of places like California, Massachusetts and Vermont, and a good deal of New Mexico,

which, as the name might imply, is heavily hispanic. I could go on, but I'm trying to fit this in one post.

As for the "small town" aspect, sorry, bro, but you're off there too, as most of the small towns or suburbs

surrounding these major cities reflect the same, or very similar levels of tolerance.

Ever heard of places like Westport, Connecticut, New Hope, Pennsylvania, New Paltz, Woodstock and Saugerties, New

York, Long Island, for God's sake?...Sorry, again, bro, we really don't have the space or time.

The atheist thing is a strawman, too, because for most people (especially in metro areas) religion is

rarely, if ever, even talked about...I've been an agnostic for forty years and few know or care.

Unlike the UK we have this thing called "separation of church and state".

Ironically enough, the most aggressive "proselytizing" I've experienced lately was by muslims

when I visited London last April!

The only time one might have a problem in self-identifying as an atheist

in the metro areas of the north and those of the other Blue States I mentioned,

is if you wanted to run for president, and personal predilections aside, lol

that opportunity is limited to native born citizens, I'm afraid.

Happy Independence day, by the way.:hi:

[Douglas Carpenter]

153. I think the British have an appreciation of personal eccentricity that would be exceptional in most

of North America. On the other hand the British can at times seem to have developed bigotry to almost an art form with defined stereotypes for almost every identifiable group. But what I think you may be describing and I would tend to agree - having spent some time myself in the U.K. and considerably more time in both small town and coastal big city America - is a peculiar British appreciative sense of humor for the off-beat character that goes beyond identities such as gay or straight, black or white or whether or not one belongs to an identifiable subculture such as an artistic or bohemian community. Even working class British seem to enjoy the company of the odd character and peculiar personality who would tend to have trouble fitting into even most subgroups in the U.S. or Canada.

[whathehell]

158. "Even working class British seem to enjoy the company of the odd character and peculiar personality"

who would tend to have trouble fitting into even most subgroups

in the U.S. or Canada".

Could this then be a particularly "British" type of

oddness that is accepted, rather than a manifestation

of openness to eccentricity itself?

I honestly don't know, but you might be interested in reading a book written by British

anthropologist Kate Fox, that was well received in

the UK. and the U.S. It's called "Watching the English:The Hidden Rules of English Behaviour"

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/288448.Watching_the_English#other_reviewsThen

[zanana1]

50. I couldn't find that website. nt

[Name removed]

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[zanana1]

95. Thanks! nt

[Pacifist Patriot]

24. "what the average American would routinely believe and accept without question"

This has to be my greatest frustration.

I'm weary of it all. If I could find a way to move to the UK I'd do it in a heart beat. I've spent time there (three week stretches every few years since 1977) so I know it's no Utopia. But somehow I still think I'd be happier in the long run.

[librechik]

29. it's true. The atmosphere in the US is just different than other countries

and not in a good way. Still the only place to buy Doritos, though.

[MemeSmith]

30. I liked your reply, so I hate to have to say...

There are Doritos in my kitchen right now. These are sold in mainstream supermarkets here.

For the more specialised US products, they are available online, but we are lucky enough to be only a few miles from one of the outlets, so we're fully stocked.

[librechik]

31. can't find them in the strangest places--

couldn't find them in Mexico, for example, although I haven;'t been there in many years. Hard to find in Australia, even nowadays. Online purchases may actually make my expatriation possible, eventually (kidding only slightly)

[Name removed]

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[whathehell]

110. Actually, it's improved a lot since you left...

:rofl::rofl:

That's assuming, of course, that one can believe a veritable

CONTINENT with very diverse regions and fifty states

to have a single "atmosphere"...duh.

Tell you what, though....How 'bout I send you

twenty bags of doritos for every year you stay AWAY?

I could afford it, and it defintely be worth it.

[Name removed]

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[bluestate10]

53. American progressives have no concept of how intolerant european

countries are. The USA is a true melting pot that has all shades of color and hair texture. Morons like Michelle Bachmann are loud and angry, but they are a minority. You mentioned electing a person of color to the highest office in Britain, try shooting a lot lower, have a person of color be a significant military officer in Britain. The grass always seems greener on the other side.

[MemeSmith]

76. How significant is significant?

Air Commodore is a high military rank, here.

Morons like Michelle Bachman are not the problem, because you know at the outset that they are bigots. The problem is the day to day people who insist that they are not bigots, and who indeed do not discriminate against the groups that they have been taught to embrace, who nevertheless discriminate against other individuals, for whatever reason, as soon as they step outside of the cultural comfort zone.

[Name removed]

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[MemeSmith]

83. I agree

If we're talking about the whole of Europe. I too have had conversations that made me shudder with people in Europe who expected me to agree with them.

There are many places in Europe that I wouldn't want to live for those same reasons.

[whathehell]

101. We're talking about Brits too

I heard a Brit and an Aussie who'd lived for the past

five years in Britain refer to the Scots as "children",

because it seems not a few of them are Nationalists

and want to break with the UK.

I heard how the Scots "didn't want to work",

which really caught my attention as it was a common accusation

about Blacks in the US about forty years ago*

They ended up agreeing that they'd "better not" leave the

UK as they'd "have to get off the dole", move out of Scotland

and "look for work".

*Besides the Scots, I learned of some other Euros who "don't want to work",

and those would include Romanian, Bulgarians, and Muslim Immigrants....I'm sure

there are more but being there for only a few days,

we probably lacked the full list :eyes:

As for the UK, it's not only Scots who are looked down upon,

It's also the "pakis" and (still, it seems) the Irish

Your wonderful "first woman" PM is well-known as being anti-Irish.

The late, lovely Princess Margaret had the appalling gall

to come to Chicago and tell Irish-American Mayor Jane Byrne

that the Irish were "pigs".

Sorry, bro...You and your country have a way to go before you lecture us.

[pink-o]

141. So the US has the Klan and you lot have these idiots.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Defence_League

Sorry, Mate, I spent 1974 to 1979 in London, and after the scales fell from my eyes, I realised Brits were not more sophisticated or educated than we were. Like here, it depends on your area, and where your standing is in society. In the US, that standing has everything to do with money, in England, your family name and occupation give you some prestige as well. But in the end, Brits and Yanks are pretty well on parity--even with your pretty accents, your language skills are no better than ours, you're just as quick to blame immigrants for your problems, and enough people are conservative enough to have given you Maggie Thatcher as a solution to your "socialistic" problems. Not a whole lotta dif, my friend.

Perhaps people might think Brits are more erudite because by osmosis they absorb some of the Continental attitude. When I lived there, I loved that Europe was so close, and you only had to travel a few hours to encounter people with different sensibilities from your own. Unlike Box Store America, where the culture can be the same for miles and miles.

However, in the 70s we didn't have the internet, or even a good phone system, so anything I might need to know doesn't require the extensive physical search it used to. Also, on a personal note I'm bloody glad to be out of that flippin' RAIN!!! If I ever move back that way, I'll live in France or Italy before going back to England!

[MemeSmith]

79. As for your true melting pot...

My wife is an American of 'dual heritage' who has lived in many locations in the US. She has informed me that she never encountered a true melting pot. She endured discrimination wherever she went on the basis of her 'background,' whether she wasn't white enough for some, hispanic enough for others, or merely the wrong kind of hispanic. In her experience, with relatively minor exceptions, the US is still largely ethnically tribal, even manifesting antagonism between ethnic sub tribes.

It would be interesting to see some substantive research on this but again, my personal experience is of a much more integrated mix of backgrounds in UK society. There are still ethnic, religious and cultural ghettoes, but the ethnic mixing of young people in social interaction is so routine and widespread here to be unremarkable.

In my youth, this was still comparitively rare, and I have only acquired friends from varied ethnic backgrounds in later life, but one of my best friends is half a generation younger than me and his 'crew' is drawn from every shade on the pallette.

[Name removed]

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[Kaleko]

105. Remarkable... you and whathehell must be identical

twins.

The same message, the same line spacing, the same grammatical errors and both of you badgering the same person with identical jingoistic tripe... what are the odds of that happening?

Cloning perhaps? But carry on, it's pretty funny to watch.

[whathehell]

111. Like you and Violet_Crumle, perhaps?

Same message, same lack of experience of the country,

same bigoted, gratuitous anti-American "tripe".

Duh...Thanks for playing!

[Kaleko]

114. Post some evidence for your allegation.

Both of you can have a go at it, lol.

[whathehell]

116. The evidence is on the thread, dear

If you can't read, I can't help you, lol

[Kaleko]

120. I have posted only twice on this thread.

Once to your sock puppet "Vegas_Baby" and now to you.

Again, what evidence do you have for your accusation that I am using a sock puppet to bolster my assertions?

You have to be specific to make your case.

[whathehell]

123. Yes, and one of them was to make an unverified allegation

that Vegas_baby and I are one and the same, just as you are now accusing

me, again without evidence, of using him/her as a "sock puppet".

When you make your case, dear,

I might feel obligated to do the same.:eyes:

[Kaleko]

126. Changing your tacticts to further obfuscate the matter won't help.

You know full well that I've detailed the uncanny similarities between your and Vegas_Baby's posting styles in my first message on this thread.

Again, here's what I said: The same message, the same line spacing, the same grammatical errors and both of you badgering the same person with identical jingoistic tripe... what are the odds of that happening?

I'll also add that both you, and Vegas_Baby tend to overuse the same green "rollseyes" smiley
:eyes: :eyes:

Now show some evidence that Kaleko and Violet Crumble are one and the same poster. If you can't do that, you have nothing left to hide behind.

[whathehell]

129. I don't know about my "tacticts"

but my spelling, unlike yours, seems to be doing okay.

First of all, stating that something has "similarities" to another is not the same as "showing" them.

You've shown nothing, and even if you do, I only said I "might" feel obligated

to do the same, so I'm afraid you're in no position to "demand" anything, lol.

Beyond that, you do seem to be under some illusion of "authority" or importance here

with respect to your silly allegations.

Before you go further out on that delusional limb, you need to understand something:

You can think and "accuse" whatever you want. I have no need

to "prove" anything...buh bye.:hi:

[Kaleko]

133. Stomping off in a huff

is not convincing and won't help your credibility. Btw, where did Vegas_Baby go? I'm still waiting for her protestations that she is, indeed, a different poster from you and to tell me in her own, unique way to fuck off :)

[Name removed]

136. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kaleko]

147. How can you reply to me if I'm on your ignore list?

Nothing you say is believable.

I'll leave it at that.

[whathehell]

156. You do have a problem keeping things straight, don't you?

I speculated that you might be on Vegas_Baby's ignore list, not mine.

As for nothing I say being "believable"...I'd suggest that

you check the thread, dear...There seems to be a lot of people here who

agree with me....Sorry. :hi:

[Kaleko]

155. Well, your alter ego Vegas_Baby has been tombstoned now.

That's good to see after all the deceptive nonsense and insults you have spewed on this thread alone.

Now that you've established your m.o., people will watch out for more sock puppets posting on your behalf, I'm sure.

[MemeSmith]

73. Been on DU for longer than that

And there is ample evidence here of the distress that DUers widely feel over the misinformation of their 'average' neighbours.

My personal experiences included worldly, well travelled, progressive relatives, who had the same routine misconceptions about the issues as everyone else who watches the evening news. It wasn't to do with a conservative area. I have communicated with people from all over the US and the misconceptions are not geographically isolated. None of this is a secret on DU. You know what the myths are:

US healthcare is the best in the world.
US education is the best in the world.
President Obama is the leader of the free world.
America is the world's most respected nation.
Our neighbours envy us.
America is a force for good in the world.
Our enemies hate us because of our freedom, not because of what we do in the world.

Of course, people who are wise to these myths can also be found everywhere, but when your supposedly progressive Secretary of State claims that the US needs to reclaim its position of leadership, you know how deep the problem is.

By the way, our deputy prime minister is an atheist, and we elected a woman to the highest office over thirty years ago.

I don't expect to see an atheist president of the US in my lifetime, but I do expect to see a person of colour as Prime Minister here.

It isn't bigotry that stops us electing a PM from a racial minority, it's the personal qualities of the individuals. Diane Abbot ran for leadership of the Labour party. She was not ruled out in popular discourse as an incredible candidate. It was her policies, personality and presentation that swung it away from her. It would not have surprised me to see her win it.

[MemeSmith]

74. Also, when I refer to endemic bigotry...

When I refer to endemic bigotry, it is, like all of my observations, in the context of the story of our return.

This was personal experience of the discrimination that we experienced in our daily lives, from even self professed progressives. On the issues that matter to us on a personal level, we were not aware of many locations in the US where we could expect to be free from this kind of experience.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/151241/10_scariest_states_to_be_an_atheist/?page=entire

Atheism is only one of the issues that concerned us. Alone, it is big enough to sway a decision, but it wasn't alone.

[whathehell]

103. I wouldn't think there would be many "self-professed progressives" in El Paso, Texas

but I'll take your word regarding your description of them:eyes:

As for this "discrimination", I'd have to hear specifics...Much of Texas can be bigoted,

but the Southwest in general, New Mexico in particularly, has had a long, and certainly

in the case of New Mexico, frequently favorable relationship with Hispanics..Bill Richardson,

half Hispanic like your wife, was a popular governor there...He's a close friend of the

Clinton's and ran as a very credible candidate for president....There are many Hispanics

holding public office, not only in the Southwest, but in Florida, for instance, very conservative

Senator Rubio.....Hispanics are the largest growing "minority" in America and their vote

is actively courted.

Again, I don't know what your experience are, so I can't respond to them as being in any way "typical"

[whathehell]

102. Being on DU is nice but

It just doesn't exactly compensate for actually LIVING in this country

for more than a year in El Paso.

I mean do you REALLY expect that DU membership of short duration as well

as a year living in a very red and, (to put it mildly) non-cosmopolitan area

of red state Texas puts you on an "equal footing" with the majority

here who are life-long Americans, some whose ancestry goes back a century or more?....Give me break

This list you lay out is common for CONSERVATIVES in this country,

Why do people (including some oft-challenged progressives here) think

that being "conservative" is more "average" than being liberal or

"moderate", especially since the "average" voter, just elected

a Black Democrat to the presidency by a COMFORTABLE margin?

If anything, I'd say that indicates that "conservatives" are LESS

average than liberals and moderates, although I'm SURE that

doesn't help your self-serving "Britain is better" theory, LOL.

BTW, you keep going on about our Secretary of State, but few if ANYONE

on this board views Hilary Clinton as "progressive"....She's

(at best) a centrist democrat, as Obama has turned out to be.

"I don't expect to see an atheist president of the US in my lifetime, but I do expect to see a person of colour as Prime Minister here".

Well, THAT is a surprise.:evilgrin:

Sorry, again, bro..but I think we have established your limitations

as an "authority" on this country, even though you seem loathe to accept them.

Beyond the "arrogance in inverse proportion to the knowledge"

given, I just had to laugh at your anticipations for our two

countries, a they so reflect your national bias toward your own

country and your skewered understanding of ours.

[whathehell]

144. What Ignored said...

I don't know

but I decided some time ago,

that I didn't find him or her

a credible source.

So there!:rofl:

[defendandprotect]

Cheers for you!! Know how many of us would do it if we could .. ?

But remember how far Hitler got before they stopped him --

Same forces behind this -- and they are taking down ALL the countries at one time

this time around --

"The Beast Reawakened" -- !!

[whathehell]

100. And yet another Brit tells "Why I'm becoming an American"

Why I’m Becoming an American
by Simon Winchester

"Forty years ago, this country embraced a broke Brit. On July 4, I’m giving back—with the oath of citizenship.

My love affair with America began with a vast disappointment, back in 1959. My father had been offered a job as an engineer in Tulsa, Okla. My mother and I, overjoyed at the idea of exchanging our shabby little life in north London for the magic of the prairies—all high grass, sunshine, oil wells, and longhorn cattle—sold the house, packed up our belongings, booked ourselves on an ocean liner. And then, the night before sailing, my father got cold feet and canceled everything.

I was crushed—but vowed to go, one day, and see for myself the dream that had been so cruelly snatched away. Four years later I seized the opportunity. I took a year off before Oxford, bought the cheapest ticket to Montreal, traveled to Vancouver, and then crossed the American frontier by way of the Peace Arch into the seaside town of Blaine, Washington"

More:

http://www.newsweek.com/2011/06/26/my-turn-simon-winchester-on-becoming-an-american-citizen.html?om_rid=DzVRRW&om_mid=_BOEcHCB8cMRL5D'''

[WinkyDink]

6. It's the military budget that is killing us. No EU nation has anything near it.

[Shagbark Hickory]

38. Why would they need it? They can outsource their warring to the u-s of a.

[whathehell]

119. Ding!..Ding!...We have a winner!

Seventy five percent of the expenses of NATO is paid for by the US.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

145. And exactly who is NATO defending Europe against these days?

Right-wingers like to brag about how the U.S. is "defending the whole world," but against whom?

Europe has no one interested in conquering it militarily. Japan is joined at the hip with China economically and has a large enough "self-defense force" to fend off North Korea.

[cali]

7. 5 million out of how many?

And I live in Vermont, thank you very much. As liberal as any place in the EU

[brooklynite]

9. So why are you writing here?

You're entitled to your opinion, and many of them are fair, but you decided to leave, rather than stay and work to change what you find objectionable. Perhaps you should focus on the problems in your new home, unless you're planning to return.

[greytdemocrat]

10. It's far easier to just knock the US

After all, everything bad since the last Ice Age is the United States fault.

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Luminous Animal]

14. Why did European expats, after coming to the U.S., write back to their homelands?

I've been working for change for 40 years and all I've got for my efforts is a decline on nearly all fronts... legislatively, judicially, economically. For the most part, we are a violent mean-spirited country populated by people too afraid to risk anything to make things better.

[whathehell]

143. I doubt they wrote to strangers on intenet message boards.

Just sayin'..:eyes:

[MattSh]

15. So, your plan is to depend on the corporate media

to inform you about how much better things are in Europe. How's that working for you?

[Bonobo]

17. You want people to shut up when they say things you find unpleasant.

THAT much is clear.

Too bad it is a discussion forum, eh?

[brooklynite]

20. No - I want to fight for the issues I believe in...

The OP says nothing about what the US should do, or what his/her new home does better.

[bluestate10]

54. If the OP was in the picture with the placards, the OP lives in a rat-hole. nt

[sudopod]

28. Implying our problems don't impact the whole world.

Especially our bestest best buddy Britain.

[AsahinaKimi]

39. I thought Canada was our Bestest Buddy?

They are right next door!

[zanana1]

52. You're right

And it is "lonely at the top". I always suspect a bit of jealousy in all the anti-American tirades.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whathehell]

142. "Perhaps you should focus on the problems in your new home",

I agree, but I was "deleted" for saying all but the the same

to someone here who had never even visited, let alone

lived here or had citizenship here.:eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

13. I sent my daughter to Europe for a month and a half. I'm hoping she will find a way to move there...

though her absence will leave a huge hole in my life.

Watch SiCKO if you already haven't, to see civilization.

[mnhtnbb]

35. My son is a German major--senior next fall--and he did summer study in Berlin

last summer. We have hoped precisely the same thing--that he will try to
find a way to move to Germany.

[zanana1]

49. My niece signed a contract to work in a library there...

She signed a three year contract. She hates it and she has two years to go. My sister is worried that she'll have a nervous breakdown. She finds the German people very unfriendly, which is something she did not expect. I really feel for her and I wish she hadn't been so eager to "see other lands".

[bluestate10]

55. She can break the contract. There may be a penalty. But if she is

unhappy enough to have a breakdown, she should get out of the contract and leave.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dana_b]

42. that's how I feel too

it's too late for me but I am hoping she will be able to move away for her well being.

[Bonobo]

16. I left because my taxes were going to wars instead of health care.

In the US, you pay taxes on the sweat of your labor to kill, but not to feed and clothe and take care of the health of your own citizens adequately.

Try working for yourself and taking care of the health and dental needs of your kids while paying off a mortgage and trying to save.

It ain't easy in America.

It became all too clear that in the US, citizens are not viewed as the strength of the country, but as a source to suck dry by the ultra-rich.

[JCMach1]

18. I am looking forward to moving back within the next year, or so

[xchrom]

19. recommend

[Romulox]

22. Unlike the author, if I ever leave, I'll never look back.

What I don't respect is the whining from "over there". Once you leave, I stop listening, because I get the sense (however rightly or wrongly) the sense that speaker won't put her money where her mouth is.

[MemeSmith]

27. What emotional reaction do you have...

What emotional reaction do you have when a US citizen states, through their actions as well as their words, that another nation is superior to yours?

Respectfully curious.

[Romulox]

33. I'd likely agree.

(Displaying "Old Glory" upside down is a sign of disrespect, or at least I intend it that way.)

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MemeSmith]

72. I'd likely agree

Being a post imperial nation, we have had our emotional shock about losing our illusions of our standing in the world. We never cease to complain about our own country and it comes as no surprise that expats are growling about what drove them out.

We don't believe that we are an exceptional nation and the great hope for the world. On the contrary, Brits are far more likely to overlook the qualities of their own country and its accomplishments.

As I mentioned before, I'm wierd, so I should expect that there will be enough people who disagree with me to fill a website. For my family, however, it was necessary to escape the US and return to this life, a life that we love.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MemeSmith]

85. "Well, it is not very long ago that you did believe yourself to be an "exceptional nation""

That's pretty close to the whole point, though. Because we have been through the culture shock of losing our empire, we are a much more healthy culture than the nation whose Secretary of State claims that her nation needs to reclaim its position of leadership.

If you own all of the guns and believe that you are the leader, you're not a hope, you're a liability.

We used to believe that about ourselves, but the fact that we endured the pain of losing that status makes the UK a much better place to just be yourself, in my view. In this way, the extent to which we resemble the US, compared to our European neighbours, is a failing, in my opinion, because it is the extent to which we tend towards conservative, rather than progressive values.

[whathehell]

98. Umm...When something lasts a very long time, like your empire

and it's hereditary class system,

it's institutions and habits of mind tend to linger for a long time as well.

and in the case of that anachronistic class system

that would be neither positive nor "healthy".

Some say that the British Class system

started dying generations ago. That didn't stop it from

screwing up Brits like my friend Frank who, in the eighties,

was denied "certain" jobs in the UK regardless of skill, because he lacked the "right" accent


Same thing with Jeff on Brits in America who, later than that,

flew with the RAF, but was refused training in their career program

(as well as that of British Airways) because, as he said, they were concerned that

his father didn't go to college, even though said father was a prisoner of war in WWII.

I'd call that shameful on more than one level.


Later than that, it didn't keep a snide brit professor of mine in grad school

from LITERALLY "looking down his nose" at me during a brief conversation,

although he'd met me only once before (ironically enough, one in which

he'd tried to persuade me to enter a program of which he was the head.)

and knew very little of my academic work...Perhaps it was simply

an old british habit, or maybe I didn't have

the "right" accent either*.:eyes:

Some, like Brit anthropologist Kate Fox

claim that Britain is STILL quite class conscious and is,

in her words, unlike America, "no meritocracy"


*A partiuclar bit of idiocy since Americans don't HAVE "class accents",

they have regional accents only, and no, they're not the same

as our three twentieth century Southern presidents would illustrate.

[hifiguy]

34. Great post!

K&R

And the story about the homeless boy and the cat was a heartbreaker.

[Puglover]

36. We are leaving.

Currently building a home up in the Northern Andes in Ecuador. But not just because I am disgusted with the US. (I am.) But also for an adventure. The cost of living is a 1/4 of what it is here. The weather is a dream. High 75 low 55 365 days a year. But of course I have mixed feelings. It's a big step.

[Shagbark Hickory]

37. and an adventure you shall have!

The Andes.
That's a bit extreme.

[Puglover]

40. Not really. The northern Andes are the

older part of the range. Very green, gentle. Here's a pic off of the courtyard facing Cotacachi.



And we are only 1 1/2 hours from Quito which is a stunning world class city. And from there it's a 30 min jump to the beach and an hour flight to the Galapagos.

[Shagbark Hickory]

41. But what are you going to do to make money?

Do you speak the language?

[Puglover]

44. My Spanish is passable and hopefully will improve.

And money isn't an issue.

[Shagbark Hickory]

45. By not an issue, do you mean you won't be working there?

[Puglover]

46. Well there are alot of opportunities down there for starting

your own business. We are actually designing our home to be B and B friendly. (The two guest bedrooms will only be accessible from the enclosed courtyard not our part of the house.

However at this point I have no plans to work. By "not an issue" I mean I don't have to work. We are paying cash for the house and we both have pensions and savings.

[Shagbark Hickory]

48. Ok, so you're basically retiring there, yes?

[Puglover]

88. Yes.

[BOG PERSON]

43. agreed. that's why i'm applying for asylum in a north korean special economic zone

[zanana1]

47. You wrote a very long post just to piss us off.

And you picked the Fourth of July weekend to do it. It's a well known fact that people who criticize their own governments don't like people from other countries criticizing their governments. It's something like criticizing your wife; you can do it, but nobody else can. You got it? And, since you're in Europe now, you'll understand this little phrase; Piss off!

[Violet_Crumble]

86. So us pesky foreigners shouldn't have criticised the Bush administration?

Even though US foreign policy has a massive impact around the globe, we're just supposed to Piss Off and not say anything?

[zanana1]

96. If you're an American...

You should have stayed here to fight along with the rest of us.

[Heidi]

106. Are you the sole arbiter of what Americans should or shouldn't do? Where we should or shouldn't live

Newsflash: No. You're not.

[whathehell]

112. No, he's not..

Newsflash: He's got lots of company.B-)

[Heidi]

118. That ought to make the misery easier to bear. (nt)

[whathehell]

121. Maybe you're projecting a little...A lot of us just aren't "miserable".

My spouse had a job offer in Canda...We turned it down.

I have the "right of return" which would make me an EU

citizen, but guess what?....I prefer living here.

Sorry....I know that's not the answer you want to hear.:shrug:

[Quantess]

168. Did your ancestors stick around to wait for their country to improve, or did they move to the USA?

Hmmm... let's think about that one.

[Lorien]

170. What do you mean by "fight"?

I've been writing, calling, boycotting, voting and marching since the 80's. Everything keeps changing for the worse. So how do you propose that we "fight" in such a way that things WILL change?

[whathehell]

108. Maybe not, but..

Some of you "pesky foreigners", have stayed long AFTER the Bush Administration

and criticize anything and everything "American" -- the people, the culture, everything.

This tendency can seem particularly noxious when it comes from those with little,

if ANY direct experience with this country or its citizens.

I've often wondered if such a "luxury" would be extended to self-identified

Americans on foreign political boards.

All of that tends to make some here wonder if the politics isn't just

an "excuse" to express nothing more legitimate than simple bigotry.

[whathehell]

104. Thank you...I've been trying to make that point for awhile

It does seem like people are catching on.:eyes:

[Marlowbc]

56. There need to be more people like the OP

[Shagbark Hickory]

58. More people to leave?

I second that. I think the tea baggers would be much happier in a country with much less regulation and government involvement. Such as Somalia.

[Festivito]

62. I look at that RIGHT-WING spun debt graph and start to question this whole article thingy.

That graph is designed to make it look like the deficits grew under Obama. Actually, they've gone down for three years under Obama.

Oddly, deficits increased under both Bushs, but, showing only the BUDGET DEFICITS instead of the ACTUAL DEFICITS make it look the opposite for W. (W did not include the wars in his budgets, and Obama did.)

We owe and will pay the actual amount.

So, why use budgets instead of actuals? To lie.

[Le Taz Hot]

87. Then oversees is where he/she should be.

Those without the stomach for the upcoming fight really do need to go somewhere else, poor little lambs. Take your smelling salts with you. Those of us who CHOOSE to stay and fight actually have spines and we will be the survivors, or haven't these people ever read "The Grapes of Wrath?"

[Puglover]

89. LOL the upcoming fight on the internets?

Give me a break. Tell me, where is the "upcoming fight" going to be? Going to go grab slack jawed sheeple away from their 42" plasmas and American Idol and get them out on the streets? The powers that be have this country right were they want it. A small upper class. A gargantuan lower middle class with just enough money to buy their beer and live their lives out in their barcoliners while living paycheck to paycheck. And the people below them are too disenfranchised and dispirited to do anything other then survive.

Or signing letters by Bernie Sanders (god bless him) and thinking that is going to make a difference? Please.

And if they do take to the streets what then? They would be crushed like bugs and happily villified by Fox News and the rest of the corporate scum media.

Because some of us choose and are able to leave hardly means we need to be called "poor little lambs" and that we have "no spines". In my case it means I want better weather, a calmer standard of living, to become fluent in another language, an adventure in a new culture. How that makes me into a turncoat is beyond me and if it does so be it.

[Le Taz Hot]

90. Then by all means, go.

With our blessing. :shrug:

[Puglover]

91. I appreciate that.

Thank you.

[Heidi]

107. "Oversees"? Really?

Oh, dear. :rofl:

[whathehell]

113. Heidi, dear..

Why don't you go yodel yourself?:rofl:

[Heidi]

117. Because I'm American,

dear. Yodeling isn't my strong suit, just as sarcasm isn't yours. But keep chasin' the dream.

[whathehell]

122. HAHAHAHAH

Yes...You too!

[Le Taz Hot]

146. A spelling error?

That's all you got? Weak, hon, very weak.

[panzerfaust]

92. Yep. The Dream is alive in the EU

[maritimer]

93. Having traveled extensively myself, I used to harbor your fantasy

Of moving to some exotic locale where the cost of living is low and the weather is sweet, but now I choose not to. Why? I went to the anniversary rally of the Iraq War back on March 19 and there were only a couple thousand people there, tops, in front of the White House. American troops are dying there, still, almost daily. If you don't get your body out in the street (I am not referring to the relatively tame act of handing out leaflets or making phone calls) then you have little right to complain. I look at the huge sacrifices the Egyptians and Syrians and Yemenis are making- some losing their lives- for the sake of their nations, and I think, who the hell are we to complain and flee the country? And take our Social Security check and spend it in another economy, to boot? Do you see hordes of Egyptians saying, ah, screw this, I am out of here?

I won't do it. By the way, Europe is no paradise- they have significant social and economic problems of their own. Frying pan, fire.

If you are happy, peace to you, but I choose to stay, for better or for worse.

[sarcasmo]

99. Health care should not be tied to your job, Medicare for all.

Worst industrialized nation on the Planet.

[whathehell]

115. If you think so..

Maybe you could make like the OP and leave?

It's always easier to bitch than work on a problem, isn't it?

[sarcasmo]

124. Saying Medicare for all is bitching?

[whathehell]

131. No, it's not

but making the country "the worst" of all

the developed nations because of that might be.

[sarcasmo]

134. Stats don't lie, look at the numbers. Stating the truth is not bitching.

[whathehell]

137. Well, then my initial question has some relevance, doesn't it?

I get this 'zine called International Living.

It's aimed at Americans who want to expatriate

and live what they see as a better, more economical

life elsewhere.

This should be the link...If it doesn't work

I'd suggest you just google "International Living".

http://www.internationalliving-magazine.com/?utm_campaign=bing

[Quantess]

128. "it's easier to bitch than work on a problem"

What do you think DU is for? All we do here is "bitch".
I worked on the problem, by moving away from the USA. Problem solved, for me. :hi:

[whathehell]

130. Yes...for you.

Thanks for all that "good citizenry", lol.

and on edit...If it's "solved" for you

Why are you still on here bitching?

Is that your idea of "doing something"

for the rest of us?

And again...did you give up your citizenship?

[Quantess]

159. You're welcome, LOL.

Why are you here "bitching"? As if you are more eligible than I am to sit at the computer and be an internet warrior! Tell me how you are "doing something" for the rest of us".
And what is the bizzarre hostility about whether I gave up my citizenship? No, I have always had dual citizenship, as if that is any of your business. I just might want to return to the USA someday, if situations improve.

[whathehell]

160. Back at you, LOL

Why am I here "bitching"?...Actually, I believe

I asked YOU that question in relation to this

response:

"I worked on the problem, by moving away from the USA. Problem solved, for me".

The obvious point was, if your problem is "solved", what do you have to bitch about?

What do I do "for the rest of us"?.....For one thing, I give quite a bit of non-tax deductible

money to progressive causes. Other types of activities include participating

in rallies, political meetings, and fundraisers, canvassing neighborhoods

Get Out the Vote work...You know, the types of things you can't do from Sweden.;-)

[Quantess]

161. That's great. I'll forgive you for your rudeness.

So why am I still "bitching" at DU? I'm an American citizen and I still care. This is a discussion board, for discussing topics of interest, remember? It should be apparent that this is a topic of interest to me.
I have a unique perspective, in that I can verify that a little socialism here and there is actually beneficial. My perspective can be insightful to other DUers, you know?

[whathehell]

162. What "rudeness"?...You asked me questions and I answered you.

Sorry if you didn't like the answers..Perhaps

they made you feel defensive.:shrug:

[Quantess]

163. Um....is that what happened? The thread shows something completely different.

You asked me twice whether I'm still a citizen, the second time because I didn't answer quickly enough. You asked me why I'm still here "bitching".

All I'm asking is, what makes you think expatriates are suddenly less qualified to participate on the DU? We can't join in the keyboard-warrior conversation just because we've moved?

Yes, I think your tone is rude and hostile, but maybe you're just jealous. :shrug:
Seriously, this is getting funny. I'd love to keep this going, but I have better things to do. :)

[whathehell]

164. Yeah, that's what happened.....The "thread" being as open to interpretation as anything else

Jealous?...Not likely, since, I have the same

right to dual citizenship myself*

I just don't use it, not finding life as a foreigner

in a foreign country very enviable..:shrug:


You come on here telling us about being an expat, smugly tell us

that you "solved the problem for myself"...tell us how

your "new" country is "kicking America's ass"...and you're surprised

and offended at being asked about citizenship?...Get Real.


*I'd suggest that winters on the Dalmatian Coast are a bit nicer than Sweden's too!

[Quantess]

167. You don't think you were rude at all.

.
.
I had you on ignore for a minute, but you are just so entertaining, for me. I asked the mods to delete this sub-thread, but they haven't yet.
What did I do to make you so angry? You sent me a nastygram today. Seriously...THIS...Americans moving out of the USA...THIS is what makes you angry?

Edit to add: you never bothered to explain why expatriates shouldn't participate on a discussion forum like DU.

[whathehell]

172. You don't think you were rude at all?

Seriously..I'm glad this is "entertaining"

for you and all, but I'm not really feeling the fun.

I never said that expatriates shouldn't participate

on a discussion forum on DU and in fact have

communicated with others (like the poster below)

in a positive way. I was irritated by some

of your remarks, but I've already addressed those.

I believe I've explained myself, and I think

we've said all we have to say to each other.

That being the case, I'm going to go with your

initial inclination and say goodbye.:hi:

[Quantess]

125. I'm an expatriate too.

There are a lot of things I really love about the USA. Until a couple of years ago, I never thought I would want to live any other country besides the US. Emotionally, I felt ambivalent until the very end. But it just is wiser for me to live in Europe. The health service fiasco is a huge factor, and it isn't smart for me to stay in the US as I get older. Health care is a deal breaker! I am still healthy, but I just can't afford the American health care system. Also, the decreasing wages. Let's face it: the USA is a sinking ship.

The people in my new country share my genetic background, and I feel like I blend in well here, except for the language. But the people are more like me than most Americans are, I agree with their values more closely. And, they are kicking USA's ass in terms of economy, standard of living, employment levels, infrastructure, well being, education, parenthood, etc, etc. Sweden took a lot of lessons from the USA, and it worked well for them. The USA would be wise to take a few lessons from Sweden, instead of holding onto the arrogant, ignorant idea that USA is #1.

I do love many things about the USA. I'm better off here, though. I moved here in hopes of a better life.

[whathehell]

127. Did you

have to give up your citizenship?

[Quantess]

151. Nope.

I had and have dual citizenship.

[ClarkUSA]

132. Isn't Sweden facing a rising nationalist fringe because of its large Turkish population?

Is that true? I read a story in the NYT about it. The Swedes' generous asylum system is at stake; the NYT story made it sound like Sweden may have been taken advantage of but I'd like to hear your take, if you are so inclined.

[whathehell]

138. They've had some problems with immigration, yes

but Quantess, as she's said,

has "the same genetic heritage"

so it seems she's not likely to be singled out

and harassed.

[Quantess]

152. I really haven't noticed, but then, I'm so new here.

That's pretty much the scoop--- Sweden is very welcoming to asylum seekers, and some Swedes feel their social system is being taken advantage of. It isn't just Turks, also Somalians, Iraqis. Sweden has taken in the most Iraqi refugees of anyone in the world, I believe. Sweden has taken in a lot more Iraqis than the USA.

[ClarkUSA]

135. A big reason why NATO nations can afford a large safety net is....

... the US is subsidizing most of their defense costs, which would be huge otherwise.

[whathehell]

139. Oh yes....They sometimes

forget to mention that.;-)

[ClarkUSA]

148. heh

:hi:

[whathehell]

157. Yup...

:hi:

[whathehell]

140. Seventy Five percent of NATO's defense is financed by the USA

[WatsonT]

149. I would like to see us start backing out of NATO

because as you say, we are essentially paying for their defense.

Europe is wealthy enough to protect their own interests.

[ClarkUSA]

150. Gates was speaking of having EU nations step up and pay their fairer share, so to speak.

He's of the opinion that NATO is a goner if EU nations think they can keep soaking US taxpayers for their defense. I'm paraphrasing, of course. A former NATO senior official from the EU itself (Denmark?) said something similar before Gates did, to his credit.

Ditto with the United Nations, where the US pays for the large bulk of the costs. Then again, to this date, only Finland has fully repaid its Marshall Plan loans. Sigh.

[Lorien]

171. That's bunk

they choose where their tax dollars go over there, and they choose to help their own people, not just the war profiteers among the wealthy elite.

Nice GOP talking point, though.

[Unrepentant Fenian]

154. I'm considering the same thing, but it has nothing to do with the US...

I am at my very core a pacifist I fought for the US when I was in my teens, not because I believed in the "conflict" as those who didn't have any skin in the game called it. I volunteered at 17 because young American men were being forced to go and fight in a war that they had no interest in. They were living and fighting like men rarely get to do. They were also shit on by every flag waving prick who supports war from the sidelines. I didn't support the war or politicians at all. I did however have tremendous respect for the poor guys who got sucked in, either by recruiter's bullshit or an illegal draft. To me, it was a situation similar when your loudmouth asshole friend starts a bar fight and even though you know he's wrong, you have to jump in just to keep him from getting his ass kicked.

Within months of returning home, I moved back home to Ireland and got involved in a cause that I really did believe in. It lead eventually to me getting shot for the second time in my life, except this time I spent 3 days in the Crumlin Road Goal (jail) developing a sever abdominal infection, sleep deprived and questioned for three days before I got to see a doctor. The exam lasted ten minutes, a shot to curb the infection and a report that my swollen eyes and missing teeth were the result of resisting a lawful arrest. Then I was finally sent to the Republicans blocks. Where my Republican Comrades gave me food and care enough to bring me back to near 100%

I don't know what roll I want to play. My old friends have leaned towards the political solution. And to their credit, they have achieved a tenuous power sharing peace.But it is no long term peace and it is a poor and gutless comprise, and certainly no victory. It is an insult to men like Bobby Sands and Joe McDonald and countless others who NEVER gave up the fight. They were in shackles in a british prison and still never gave up the fight. They gave up their lives, but that wasn't the half of what they suffered to never give up the fight. Read about them sometime, then you will get an understanding of what it takes to be a true freedom fighter. To fight for a cause that is neither supported by your government or any government. It is a fight that is supported by your very soul and your sense of what needs to be done to support your country to force a solution that even the politicians on your our own side won't support because they are ass kissing subjects to the ballot box.

It was violence that won the Republic of Ireland freedom from british rule, pure and simple. It was politics that sold out the North of Ireland and left it under british rule. Michael Collins, who was never a sell out, signed the treaty, knowing full well that it meant his death by the men who supported him. But at the time, that treaty was the only way to have a free Republic. He had to make a lousy decision, but in the long run, he got the best lousy deal he could and it got him killed by his own men who fought too hard to accept such a compromise.

I've always been proud to be known as as a Provo, and wanted to give the peace process a chance. A peaceful 32 County has Ireland has always been my dream. But that power sharing dream is a piece of crap compromise. So now my choice is to go to work for the Reals.Three years ago that would have been out of the question, but now, it seems the only reasonable action to take. Those years in the brit prisons have caused me long term lung, liver and heart problems, so I don't know what kind of time I have left. I do know that I have to make it count for something other than some kind of retirement portfolio. So if and when I leave the US it will be for life and it will end up being for a great cause. I finally left Long Kesh in Sept 1993 and mark my words, I'll never enjoy the hospitality of the crown again.

P.S.I love the US and want it to be a kinder, more caring country, and I think it will be. But I will leave it to help Ireland be the free and united country, free of british rule that it should be. Barring that, being a beach bum in Belize is my third option. But I'm not sure my liver could survive that decision....

[davidpdx]

165. I moved abroad for a very different reason, to teach

In the end I made Korea my second home and likely won't go back to the US except for visits (the reason being is I'm married to a Korean). I do disagree with your notion of things being hopeless. Even from Korea I continue to fight to help change things in the US. If you simply sit on the curb sucking your thumb and crying, then nothing good will become of it. In 2008, I spent hours registering voters and calling people in the United States. I write letters to Congresspeople and letters to the editors, not only about the United States but also on issues like North Korean refugees. The work never ends and should never end as we should always fight to make our country better.

[whathehell]

166. Thanks for your work on behalf of the country, despite living outside of it.

:patriot:

[davidpdx]

169. Well I truly do still care about the US, even though Korea is my home

I'm hoping Democrats Abroad gets fired up soon so we can help out getting people registered.

[whathehell]

173. That's very good to hear.

Keep up the good work and thanks again!