as much as i hate to admit it

[AlanCranston]

I believe that to get what you want, you have to experience the worst (ie rock bottom). People aren't going to want progressive reforms until unemployment gets to around 16-17 percent. But the most important thing is that you have to play hot potato with the economy. You can't let an economic meltdown happen under your watch. Think of it this way. The New Deal Coalition from 1932-1968 was when the democrats dominated everything. They held the US House and Senate for 32 out of 36 years and the presidency for 28 of those 36 years. But this coalition wouldn't have happened unless the stock market crash of 1929 had happened. If Al Smith was elected president in 1928, the democrats would have gone the way of the Whigs.

[MannyGoldstein]

1. Real unemployment is about 18% already

and has been for well over a year.

(As measured the way we did before Clinton redefined it to take out "discouraged" workers, whatever the fuck that means.)

[pinqy]

9. Let's see your source

Particularly with a .gov for the site.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. So you think a gubmint website is going to tell the truth about our current situation...

:eyes: :silly: :wow: :shrug:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[pinqy]

11. I think a govt site will give the definitions used.

All the false info about "how the govt used to measure unemployment" comes from blogs and other dubious sources.

[LAGC]

2. Underemployment is already 18.1%.

How long are people supposed to last and get by with only part-time jobs?

[Uben]

3. I borrowed some money to create myself a job.......

...it paid real good for a couple of weeks.

[JoePhilly]

12. Almost every small business starts out with borrowed money.

[provis99]

4. progressive reforms? Dreamworld, dude.

That kind of stuff died with the Great Society. Right now the choice is between rampant corporate feudalism and somewhat restrained corporate feudalism.

[Xithras]

5. "Rock bottom" doesn't guarantee a move left.

In 1932, one of the worlds most powerful countries was stuck in an economic quagmire and its unemployment rate hit 25%. It's conservative government, responding to business interests, cut taxes and social programs hoping that the reduced government spending would stimulate the economy.

The result of this "rock bottom" economic state was the rise of the Nazi party. Similar stories occurred in Italy, and have happened in other countries.

An economic crash can fuel the rise of the right just as easily as the left. When people are desperate, they'll follow anyone who promises them a way out.

[ImNotTed]

6. True

If Aug. 2 comes and we default, say hello to Weimar America.

[AlanCranston]

14. yes but Germany today is more liberal than we are

sometimes you have to experience something as bad as that to finally reject conservatism.

[MilesColtrane]

7. That's Naderism.

...and its premise is demonstrably false.

Eight years of Bush, which brought attacks on American soil, huge budget deficits from a surplus, torture, spying on citizens, the largest economic crash in 60+ years, etc., etc. only resulted in a incremental swing back to the center with the election of Obama.

By your theory, voters should have been so shocked and disgusted that they not only should have elected a government intent on dismantling Bush's influence, but one that has pushed beyond that into true progress toward a more equitable and just social and economic system.

[Kaleva]

8. The premise isn't demonstrably false.

Millions had been killed and many were starving before the people rose up and overthrew the Tsarist regime. An incremental swing back to center with the election of Obama would suggest to me that Americans overall did not think the situation was very bad.

[JoePhilly]

13. The right wing doesn't fear hitting bottom, they love the idea.

That's how they prove that the love God and America more than you do.