Hey California - who's progressive now?

[TomClash]

How about it? Time to tortoise into the 21st Century and put Prop 8 to rest.

Hey LA, whadda ya say?

[demosincebirth]

1. If they had to allow voters to vote on it, do you think it would have passed? Just asking, from

a Ca resident.

[krabigirl]

12. This. I think maybe it would have, but not back in 2008.

What I hate about California is also what I like about it..the initiative process. It can be good (prop 215) or really bad (prop 8 or 13)

[demosincebirth]

37. It started to allow the voters to circumvent the legislature, who at that tme were in the

pockets of the railroad and big business. Sound familiar? Now, many abuse the initiative process, probably what you hate about it too.

[Luminous Animal]

2. Our state legislature passed marriage equality twice. Arnold vetoed it twice.

[TomClash]

3. He's gone now nt

[Luminous Animal]

5. Unfortunately, prop 8 was a state constitutional amendment so it's out of the

legislature's hands.

[SammyWinstonJack]

4. And Arnold is such a shining example of hetero marriage.

:sarcasm:

[Tesha]

6. While you're at it, jettisoning Prop 13 might be useful, also. (NT)

[tishaLA]

11. No shit. nt

[shanti]

18. prop 13 should be tweaked

but not jettisoned. no corporations or second homes allowed. jmho

[Tesha]

20. Even on first homes, Proposition 13 was just the same plan recommended by Nordquist:

Bankrupt the state so they have no choice but to
defund all the social programs (including public
education) that Republicans find to be anathema.

It should be entirely repealed.

Tesha

[shanti]

26. do you own property in california?

i do, and i'm on a fixed income. i couldn't afford higher property taxes. guess we'll have to agree to disagree :shrug:

[Gormy Cuss]

44. IIRC it can only be repealed by a new prop.

The chances of that happening are slim to none unless most of the residential protections are retained.

What CA needs first is reform of the initiative process. What the voters enact can not be undone by the legislature. There are far too many initiatives (like Prop. 8) that become law based on an emotional appeal to voters rather than on informed choice.

The biggest problem with Prop. 13 had little to do with individual property tax assessment -- it was the requirement that voters needed to approve any future tax increase by a super majority of 66.6% . That's what started the state on the road to ruin.

[bemildred]

7. I acknowledge New York's superior governance.

:hi:

[TomClash]

9. Cool

:hi: :thumbsup: :dem: :headbang:

[mythology]

8. This is rather silly

As has already been stated, California's legislature already voted for allowing gay marriage. But the people of California choose to vote against it. I don't know if the people of New York would vote for or against gay marriage, but as far as I know everywhere in the US that gay marriage has been put to a vote, it's lost. That's unfortunate and will likely eventually change, but it is what it is right now.

Also there is every chance that those opposed to gay marriage will file a lawsuit to prevent this bill from going in to effect. The real question now is what will the New York courts do with that challenge.

It's one thing to be happy about the legislature voting the correct way, but the battle isn't over yet and there's no need to taunt one of the states that came closest to voting in favor of allowing gay marriage.

[TomClash]

10. NY courts will uphold it

There's no chance they will declare it unconstitutional. None.

Good luck to Cali, but if you're GLBT NY is the place to be. :applause:

Human rights should not be decided by plebiscite.

[Initech]

13. The prop h(8) battle isn't over yet - so the fucking fundies can't declare victory.

I'm hoping a judge somewhere strikes down Prop h(8) as being unconstitutional.

[Luminous Animal]

14. So far, one judge has but there is a stay on his decision pending appeal to the Ninth Circuit.

[Initech]

17. What if it makes it all the way to the Supreme Court?

I'm actually hoping it doesn't given the court's current right-wing stance. If they could kick Clarence Thomas off the court successfully while Obama's president then I'd be for it making it to SCOTUS. But that's a long shot...

[U4ikLefty]

15. lame

[U4ikLefty]

16. lame

[PeaceNikki]

19. What a cruel way to celebrate.

[Sapphocrat]

21. Hey, here's an idea from a Californian!

How about NOT fucking rubbing our noses in it?

You are clearly unaware of the deep wounds -- which are still bleeding freely -- left in the wake of Prop H8. My wife and I are just two Californians who poured time, money, and shoe leather into trying to derail discrimination, and not one day has passed in three years that we have not discussed it, grieved openly over it, and done something to try to stop, and now overturn, the slaughter of civil rights in California.

We were lucky. We were able to get married. But it hurts us just as badly as it did the night of November 4, 2008 -- and the morning of May 26, 2009, as we stood in front of the San Francisco courthouse, waiting to hear whether our marriage had just been revoked.

Coming to grips with just how much (and how many of) my "neighbors" hated me was difficult enough when the signs for Prop 22 went up during the 2000 election (shall we talk about Stuart Matis, the gay Mormon in my town who blew his brains out because of 22's passage?), but the trauma (and it is trauma) of Prop H8 is far worse, for many reasons you would probably never understand, only beginning with the fact that not one day in three years has passed without someone or something reminding us that there's a better than 50-50 chance every person we meet on the street is one of those bigoted shitstains who voted to deny us our birthright -- our very personhood.

This has continued daily, for three full years, with no end in sight, and no guarantee of a final victory -- but a very real possibility the whole thing will go to the heavily homophobic USSC, which will rule, some years from now, on the side of the bigots.

Suffice to say, for many of us, Prop H8 has the been the worst extended episode of our adult lives.

And you find it necessary to taunt us about it?

By the way, what did you, personally, do to make marriage equality a reality in New York?

And what did you, personally, do to stop Prop H8 in California? What have you done in three years to help overturn it? Please, do tell, since you make it all sound so easy. I'm sure Mr. Olson and Mr. Boies would love your advice to help them speed things along.

I am thrilled beyond words by New York's victory last night. You can't taint that, even by using such a glorious moment as an excuse to get in a cheap shot at California.

You might think you're being cute (hell, you might even think you're being supportive, for all I know), but all you're doing is fucking around with some very raw emotions, belonging to some very real people.

You want to get in a cheap shot at California? Stick with the stupid "fruits and nuts" jokes -- we've heard that crap so many times, it rolls off us like water off a duck's back.

Just stop kicking people while they're down.

[PeaceNikki]

22. This ^

[LeftyMom]

23. Exactly.

:hug:

[AsahinaKimi]

25. +10000

eom.

[scarletwoman]

28. Verily. +1,000

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NMMNG]

32. Don't pity me

I have the best wife in the world.

Pity yourself. You have...you.

[TomClash]

42. But at least I know my name

Look at the thread. No one was posting about you. Reading is fundamental.

I do very well in the wife department. Thanks for playing!

[NMMNG]

46. M'kay

The clue train obviously left the station without you. But then again that was obvious in the OP.

[Sapphocrat]

34. So, let me get this straight.

I'm one of those selfish gays. I am a "moron." You take credit for Vote #32 or #33. You are "sorry" you support(ed) civil rights because of selfish morons like me, and you are going to stop supporting civil rights because of my "selfish rant."

Oh, and the only reason you should pity my wife is that, like all LGBT*s, she has to put up with self-proclaimed "allies" who drop all pretense of "support" the moment they get their tiny feelings hurt on a message board.

[TomClash]

38. "Pretense of support"

Have it your way. You only want to attack me because you need someone to attack. Winning isn't good enough for people like you; you have to act like I took away your victory, even though you don't live or work here. What crap.

I don't take credit for anything. Thousands of people put in time and effort. I did one thing. Ironically, that's probably more than you did.

[Sapphocrat]

45. I have no need to attack you.

Nor am I the one doing the attacking. I criticized your post, not you. And where did I call you a "selfish moron"?

I don't even know who you are. I think you're just pissed off because I pointed out a few of the many reasons (I told you you probably wouldn't understand, and you've proved you don't) your OP struck me as extremely insensitive. Perhaps you thought you were being funny (why am I still giving you the benefit of the doubt? I don't know), but some "humor" is simply inappropriate.

I don't know why you're having so much difficulty accepting the fact that rubbing salt in the Prop H8 wound is not a nice thing to do. Are you angry because you're embarrassed?

You know, when somebody says, "I find that upsetting," or "You really offended me," most adults would at least step back and reassess what in their words would cause a negative reaction in the reader.

And most adults would actually listen when someone goes to the trouble of trying to get across the very deep and abiding pain real people suffer every day -- and would have the courtesy to respond by addressing each point instead of shooting off such epithets as "moron." But not you; rather than attempt to put yourself in another's shoes, you ignore all that messy stuff and attack the messenger.

Which is why I see it is pointless to reach you. I suspect your badly bruised ego is the obstacle stopping you from engaging in an actual dialogue.

Oh, one last thing: Yes, "pretense of support." You admitted that you were sorry you ever supported civil rights, and indicated that you weren't going to do it again -- all because of my reply to you.

That says one thing and one thing only: Your support was never real in the first place.

[Initech]

36. This.

You want to mock California? Don't mock us for prop h(8). Just watch TMZ at any given moment - and then you can mock us, but don't mock us over a stupid, hateful law that doesn't make sense and should be ruled unconstitutional.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Shagbark Hickory]

27. Don't think for a second NY is immune to a similar prop to prop h8.

[Brother Buzz]

29. New York is the greatest. Now, let's get back to work and go get those bastards

[Raine]

30. Stay classy

:eyes:

[devilgrrl]

33. Gay Marriage passed in LA before NY so stick it in your ear.

:P

[Incitatus]

35. CA has better weed.

:P

[AtomicKitten]

40. damn skippy

[AtomicKitten]

39. Watch out for those pesky Mormons!

edited for ----> :P

[ImNotTed]

41. Way to follow the GOP lead--

--by attacking other states. :thumbsdown:

[demmiblue]

43. Disgraceful post. n/t

[JI7]

47. what crap, there have been judges, the legislature and others who have supported this before

just as it didn't pass in NY by a vote of the people but rather the legislature and governor.

you might have had a point if the people had voted and it had passed in support of it but that's not what happened.

i'm glad this passed in ny. hopefully things will get fixed in california and everyoen will be allowed to marry who they want again.