Why Chinese Mothers Are Superior

[Cruzan]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

[Bonobo]

1. Disgusting. Xenophobic. Myopic. Self-Hating. Close-Minded Trash. nt

[Liquorice]

2. I have a close friend who moved here from China as a young adult. I have to say that

her theory on parenting is very similar to the Chinese mom in the article. She is strict and demanding with her kids, by Western standards anyway. She sees parenting much different than most Americans do, but of course that doesn't mean she loves her children any less. I thought it was an interesting article.

[alp227]

3. As a Chinese American I read this article and am familiar with this "valuing education" thing

among many Chinese American families and growing up surrounded by a heavily Asian-American community. I do know many Chinese/Asian friends (I include other Asians because my community has lots of Vietnamese, Indians, and Filipinos too for instance) who violate those rules that Amy Chua set for her own kids (and apparently she's in an interracial marriage judging by the photo in the article?) When I read those rules (e.g. no playdates, etc.) I began thinking: "Sharia law right there." She also points out that some families of other cultures like Jamaicans and Ghanians have similar rules too, and I may assume some Arabs/South Asians/Muslim families too. And that part where she talked about her parenting style at a dinner party and scared away a guest into tears...wow.

"Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything." <---That's the American Dream model right there: the parents raising their kids in America because they feel that America offers the best opportunities for their children. Thus they vicariously live through their kids. But once again that's not culturally exclusive. What about the "child beauty pageants" in American culture? I think that there was a reality show or two on cable TV (Toddlers in Tiaras, I think that's the title) about those. And all those American parents who pressure their kids into being great at sports, in contrast with the Asian parents who want their kids to be academic superstars. Oh, don't forget that Westerners (as Chua calls them) also value education much and can also be academically competitive.

So overall Chua does a good job explaining cultural values, but broad-brushing "Westerners" like that? That sorta tarnishes her article.

This article links to another one, "In China, Not All Practice Tough Love", that offers a brighter perspective.

(on edit) Wait, George W. Bush was actually a mediocre high school student yet made it to the White House by some gimmick of the 2000 election (and his wealthy father, a LEGITIMATELY elected president). Maybe Chua sorta has a point about Western parents?

[MattBaggins]

44. Delete... didn't mean to comment to this post

[Brickbat]

4. This woman has issues, and if she wants to brag about it, that's her problem.

What a thoroughly unlikeable personality.

[MadHound]

5. Ah, so that's why so many Chinese kids committ suicide due to stress,

Their moms ratchet the stress up throughout the kid's life.

[jallo]

6. Japanese Americans also value education highly

and any look at Japanese Americans show they, on average, are better educated than many other demographics, and make much better income.

They also have a significantly higher suicide rate.

Many people rail agains the "model minority" thing, but it's pretty hard to argue with those levels of overachievement.

[Hannah Bell]

8. ...

[MadHound]

9. Pretty hard to argue with a mother who decides everything for a kid

I have no problem with parents pushing their kids to get A's, though the fact of the matter is that in many cases grades aren't a good indicator of how successful a child is going to be in life.

My main beef is with the parent deciding what activities a child will participate in. No instruments besides piano and violin? No chance for the kid to explore the world through extracurricular activities? No playdates?

Sorry, that sounds more like totalitarianism to me rather than responsible parenting.

[jallo]

10. I'm not making a value judgment

I'm just commenting on the stats.

[Gormy Cuss]

33. A significantly higher suicide rate is an odd measure of achievement

and it's certainly not one that supports the "model minority" thing.

[jallo]

I agree and

I wasn't saying that was an example of why they receive that moniker. They have much lower rates of committing crime, to include homicides. But a negative is the much higher suicide rate, obviously.

It was more a counterpoint. I should have made that clear

[Cleita]

54. I had a Japanese American friend when I was in

college who was a straight A student. One semester she got a B in one of her classes. She completely fell apart because she couldn't face her parents who were hard working Japanese immigrants. She didn't commit suicide, but dropped out of college, ran away and married the first guy who would have her. I lost track of her after she married so I don't know if she reconciled with her family or was disowned by them.

Thanks, but no thanks to that kind of parenting.

[BlueJazz]

7. Interesting. Have not processed all the ramifications yet.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. Stopped reading at the "list of things not allowed to do". She's a psycho.

I'd rather be a street bum than be that madwoman's offspring. Fuck her.

[cherokeeprogressive]

12. Superior to what? n/t

[Quantess]

13. Well, it was halfway buying it, until I got towards the end,

at the paragraph about Lily not being able to play the piano and ridiculing her daughter for it, while forcing her to keep practicing.
She sounds like an awful woman.

[pnwmom]

15. She's got a personality disorder, and she's glorifying it. n/t

[pnwmom]

14. She is glorifying narcissistic, perfectionistic, controlling parents

who think their children are nothing but extensions of themselves and will do anything, up to and including abuse, to mold them to fit the parents needs. There are parents like that in every country of the world. Do certain cultures promote that type of behavior more than others? I don't know.

She doesn't really love her children, as much as she might think so. Real love requires the empathy she lacks. What she loves is the reflection of herself that she sees in her children. (And what she hates is anything that might reflect badly on her -- including her children, if they fail her.)

Too bad we can't read now what they will have to say about her some day.

[Quantess]

18. Yeah, she is patting herself on the back prematurely.

People with extreme parenting styles can inflict a lot of damage onto their children. It may not even show up until they get older.

[wickerwoman]

16. Interesting read.

I do remember when I was teaching in China some of my students told me their philosophy of parenting was: "Give a child a happy childhood and you have given him a failed adulthood."

I thought she made an interesting argument about self-esteem coming from genuine achievement, but it's not as simple as drilling and screaming at a kid who may not be developmentally ready until they achieve. If it took her daughter a month to learn the piano piece, maybe if she had waited a month until the kid was ready she could have learned it in a few hours.

This is something I could never get my ESL students to understand. They would come to class and brag about spending six hours a day studying English but then they could still barely speak a word. Whereas I could generally learn in 30-40 good, focused, well-rested minutes what might take hours when I was tired or burned out.

And all of that pressure is going to be released somewhere. This article made me think about the Chinese girl on a recent series of the Biggest Loser who weighed about 300 pounds and talked about all the horrible things her parents used to say about her. Check in with these kids in ten years or so... I'll bet anything they have eating disorders, drug or alcohol issues or massively dysfunctional relationships.

What "super-mom" doesn't realize is that being a violin or piano virtuoso or a straight A student or a doctor or engineer are not the only paths to a successful adulthood. And drilling a kid down those paths, if he or she is not naturally inclined towards them, is just going to make the kid miserable. Isn't that something a "superior" mother should be concerned about?

[LisaL]

36. The girl from the biggest loser was already obese as a child.

As for this mother, she was probably raised in a way similar she is raising her kids. She doesn't appear to have any of the issues such as "eating disorders, drug or alcohol issues or massively dysfunctional relationships." I don't know much about her, except what I gleaned from the article, but it appears she has a career and a family. So why exactly do you presume her children will have these issues in 10 years?

[wickerwoman]

85. Why do I presume they'll have issues?

Because every emotionally abused person I know does. And calling your child "garbage" is emotional abuse.

Of course I'm sure she's all about honesty and full disclosure so she'll admit to all of her problems in an article she wrote about what a fabulous mother she is.

[LisaL]

88. Do you actually watch "the biggest loser?"

The trainers are certainly practicing "tough love" approach, wouldn't you say?
They certainly don't tell the participants to go sit down and take a break if the participants are having a hard time, do they? I mean, the trainers (especially the female one) are screaming at the participants to make them actually move even when participants say they can't.

[wickerwoman]

95. Link, please, to the episode where Bob or Jillian calls someone "garbage".

You can motivate people without disrespecting them.

And that woman who couldn't jump onto the foot high platform wasn't made to stand there and do it for six hours without food, water or bathroom breaks. She was given weeks to work on it and when she went home, she still couldn't do it.

Some tasks are simply not developmentally appropriate and what "superior" parents do is leave it for a while and try again when the kid is a little older and can accomplish it without such a struggle. Forcing someone to do something they can't do over and over again just makes them hate the task, hate themselves and hate you.

[LisaL]

102. Considering I have never claimed that Bob or Jillian called

someone "garbage," WTF would I provide a link?
At the latest one, the guy fell and claimed his leg hurt. Neither Bob nor Jillian were impressed.
They wanted him to get up and keep going. They certainly aren't cuddling these contestants, are they?

[wickerwoman]

111. You are claiming that this mother takes a similar approach to Bob and Jillian

and I am showing that she does not. She calls her daughter "garbage"- Bob and Jillian would never do anything like that. Nor would they force a contestant to keep going for six hours if it was obvious that the contestant was honestly trying but was not capable of doing whatever was asked.

No, they don't cuddle contestants. But they don't disrespect or emotionally abuse them either. And this mother does with her kid. Critical distinction.

[LisaL]

113. Similar approach in terms of "tough love."

Even when some of the contestants say they can not possibly continue they are made to continue.
So please don't twist what I am saying.

[lbhuang]

126. Why do you not comprehend?

Oh for the love of analogy and metaphor. Do you have the faintest inkling what Wickerwoman was even trying to say? You seem to be completely missing the point.

Parenting and coaching = not the same thing. But let’s just explain with your example for the sake of clarity.

A coach motivates you. MOTIVATES. YOU. They yell and scream, encourage, and sometimes get extremely frustrated at you. But in the end, who stands up? You do. The coach is not going to run into the middle of the game and haul you up. It’s all up to you to get up off your ass because they’re pushing you, because the more they say it the more you believe in it a little, and because you know you’ll be letting others down—and letting yourself down.

And when you do get up, you end up walking off the field—well, in my experience it was often a field—with a sense of motivation, of pride, that you can do this. You’ll work harder. And maybe your coach claps you on the back and says he’s proud.

So let’s think of Chua as a softball coach yelling at her daughter. Her daughter falls and it hurts, so she doesn’t want to get up. She didn’t want to play softball to begin with. Chua yells and yells, but she doesn’t get up—so Chua walks out on the field, picks her daughter up by the neck, calls her names, and threatens her with no food if she doesn’t keep playing. The daughter ends up winning the game. Chua says “you keep getting worse. You need practice on our vacation, and if you don’t get it right, you’ll never get to see Italy.”

Yeah. Awesome. Great. See how both softball games were won, but only one showed tough love and the other just…simply pointless abuse? The Biggest Loser is an example of such a good balance between negative and positive reinforcement—tough love, so to speak, and not pointless abuse. One builds a healthy, confident person who knows softball is competitive but also meant to be enjoyed, and the other builds a prodigy that will probably kill herself, wouldn't you say?

To sum it up, Wickerwoman is saying Chua is not exhibiting tough love. Name-calling, threats, demeaning someone and then never really letting them make the choice or rewarding them with anything is just...not. Pushing someone to keep going even though they say they can't, but then they do, and you make them realize how far they can push themselves with determination, and then it all ends with telling them how proud you are--now that is.

[pnwmom]

17. Her book should be read in conjunction with "The Drama of the Gifted Child,"

Alice Miller's classic work on the children of parents who drive them to perform out of their own narcissistic needs.

http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901

"As charming performers who skillfully reflect their parents expectations, far too many children grow into adults driven to greater and greater achievements by an underlying sense of worthlessness. Never allowed to express their true feelings, and having lost touch with their true selves, they act out their repressed feelings with episodes of depression and compulsive behavior. They in turn inflict the same legacy of repression on their own children.

"This poignant and thought-provoking book shows how narcissistic parents form and deform the lives of their children. The Drama of the Gifted Child is the first step toward helping readers reclaim their lives by discovering their own needs and their own truth."

[vanlassie]

35. I second this suggestion. A classic.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

107. Expanded upon by John Bradshaw.

Read John Bradshaw's works where he expands on Alice Miller's work.
BRADSHAW ON THE FAMILY
HEALING THE SHAME THAT BINDS YOU
HOMECOMING - CELEBRATING AND CHAMPIONING YOUR INNER CHILD

He says we have ALL been emotionally abused by the negative labels society and our parents put on us.

And that's why we have an addicted society -- addicted to work, sex, talk, gossip, alcohol, drugs, Christianity, food, TV, exercise, spectator sports...yada yada. Anything to distract us from our basic shame. People telling us we were never good enough.

Original sin is the most evil and pernicious concept ever invented. An imaginary problem in a fairy tale with an unnecessary solution - substitutionary atonement.

Evil and sick.

[nolabear]

108. Amen to that!

I'm not shocked that people raise kids this way. I've seen them as therapy clients for years. But that WSJ would tout it, geez.

We have terms for it...soul murder, colonization of the mind, narcissistic objectification, etc. but the pain lots of these kids go through, never thinking they're good enough no matter what, not being able to think for themselves, being overwhelmed with shame, is tragic to see.

[pnwmom]

109. As I said somewhere else, these are vampire parents,

sucking the life out of their children -- as their own parent probably sucked the life out of them. I'm so angry to see this kind of parenting being promoted.

[alp227]

120. WSJ touting this...that's how Republicans are raised?

Because conservatives believe in authoritarian parenting, and I guess that the WSJ editors felt that this opinion piece would be appropriate for WSJ's target audience.

[provis99]

19. and now we know where angry Chinese-American porn stars come from.

Raised in households like this, I'm not surprised so many Chinese girls turn up in San Fernando Valley making porn.

[alp227]

23. were you thinking about Tila Tequila?

She, who went on to host an MTV reality show, is actually Vietnamese.

[FedUpWithIt All]

20. Sad that she is incapable of finding pride through her own accomplishments

and must abuse her children so that she can feed off their success. She is welcome to keep her superiority (abuse), I'll stick to my own way of parenting as i find her parenting style limited and cruel. I wish her children peace and personal contentment, even if only in spite of their mother's drive and methods.

I hope my own children grow to be kind, generous and increasingly aware of themselves. I do not care what they do with their lives as long as it makes them content. I feel that there is a richness that comes with finding your own way and achieving personal goals.

[provis99]

22. you sound like a much better mom.

This Chua sounds like some kind of psycho.

[pnwmom]

24. She appears to be a vampire mother,

sucking the life out of her children, as her parents probably sucked the life out of her.

And they're probably good little robots for her . . . . at the moment . . . . and maybe they'll even survive to abuse their own kids someday.

[lumberjack_jeff]

45. Did you read the bio?

—Amy Chua is a professor at Yale Law School and author of "Day of Empire" and "World on Fire: How Exporting Free Market Democracy Breeds Ethnic Hatred and Global Instability." This essay is excerpted from "Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother" by Amy Chua, to be published Tuesday by the Penguin Press, a member of Penguin Group (USA) Inc. Copyright © 2011 by Amy Chua.

Do I think she's right? No. Could I do what she did? No.

Do I think that western parenting is indulgent? Yes.

[FedUpWithIt All]

52. And? Success is different things to different people.

To myself, personal success is in finding ways to make little detrimental impact, practice forgiveness and live honorably within my personal moral and ethical framework.

Is she more successful than myself? I guess it depends on your definition of success.

I could not point out, based on one article, exactly what she feels is the pinnacle of success but i can gather some idea of where it lies based on the info she chose to share. She herself suggested that her children OWE her social pride and unquestioning obedience. I don't need that from my children to find personal value. I am thrilled to share their accomplishments but these do not define ME.

I also take umbrage with her insinuation that her "type" invest more in their children. If you add the ages of my children, it adds to a number greater than my own age. I have been a hands on, stay at home mother nearly the entire time. I have invested many many hours, but my investment has always seemed more valuable when used to form individuals who are able to find inner strength as determine their own place in the world and then successfully navigate it.



And truth be told, i would not trade lives with her.

[lumberjack_jeff]

96. I think most people would say that ability to persevere is a good success trait.

I think that many parents won't impart this lesson.

The key is to encourage kids to achieve all that which they are capable - but no more. I think more people (myself included) undershoot that mark rather than overshoot it.

[FedUpWithIt All]

114. "The key is to encourage kids to achieve all that which they are capable"

This is something the woman in the OP did not succeed at with her own kids. Her self centered and very rigid framework was too narrow to allow determine the freedom to determine what they PERSONALLY would excel at. Who knows what they would be capable of if they had been allowed to develop outside of their mother's rigid preferences based on her need for status and social pride.

[wickerwoman]

89. What difference does it make what her job is or how much money she makes?

I know three year olds with a better developed sense of empathy than she has.

She is not a successful human being.

[lumberjack_jeff]

97. The post to which I replied observed that she wasn't taking pride in her own accomplishments.

I think she does take pride in her own perceived success.

I'm not suggesting that she's right.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

21. That woman's a control freak and emotionally abusive

The part about threatening her daughter if she doesn't learn a certain piano piece by the end of the day...yikes.

My parents were stricter than those of most of my friends, but even they realized that kids get tired and have their limits and need to make choices.

And what's this about not allowing them to be in the school play? What if one of the girls' real talent lies in acting instead of in music?

This is ONE of the types of environments that can produce runaways and street kids.

(I agree only that playdates are silly, because they're parent-controlled. If parents weren't so paranoid about kidnappers, their children would run around the neighborhood and find their own playmates.)

[treestar]

66. And she picked the instruments!

what is it to her if the child wants to play the flute or the guitar?

She really is just a control freak.

[Prometheus Bound]

25. That lady's not going to get a lot of respect for that article. For starters, she's an idiot.

[datasuspect]

26. so when the chinese take over they can use us for televised target practice and gladiator fights

it'll be the new NFL, except for chinese entertainment.

[datasuspect]

27. only a true loser could be perturbed by this mother's words

good job Chinese mom!

she's the one writing in the WSJ: the rest of us are writing here.

[dionysus]

49. !!!

:spray:

:rofl:

[datasuspect]

57. i was being sarcastic

but i can agree with not coddling children and telling them they are special wonders and every poop they take is a marvel of creative brilliance.

that's how we ended up with these 20 somethings who navelgaze around each other and ruin perfectly good bars with their "chola" pants (that the guys wear), general scruffiness, and studied poor hygiene.

plus they all have cameras and take pictures of each other all the time while having halloween dress up theme parties FOR EVERYTHING and just generally possess this irritating precociousness that makes me want to slap the shit out of them, take them to a proper barber, and ship 'em off to the marines.

that being said, it is important to be strict.

jesus christ, as late as the 19th century, to be considered educated by any educated people, you had to know the classics, latin, and ancient greek by the time you went to college.

now? mollycoddled little shitstains who all think they are special and creative. and they all want to be famous for some reason. and dumb as fucking bricks in the sense that they couldn't have made it 10 minutes in the 1930s.

[pnwmom]

99. She's a narcissistic, controlling parent. The Chinese factor has little to do with it.

Parents like that exist all over the world.

[chrisa]

28. Stopped reading after the bullet points.

It sounds more like, "You should force your kids to do activities that they might not enjoy, and make life for them as stressful as possible.

[lonestarnot]

29. w/o going to the link, just reading posts sound like a serial killer creator.

She related to Babbsie? Beautiful minder?

[KossackRealityCheck]

30. Let's refer this to the experts (ROFLMAO!!!)

Asian kids are getting famous making videos lampooning their "Crazy Asian Mothers."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKnloiM-0Ns

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob9xEadiDNU

[LeftishBrit]

31. A frightening article; and no, it does NOT describe 'Chinese mothers' in general

There is a fairly large Chinese-British community in the area where I live; and one of my closest friends is Chinese, and the mother of two children, one now grown up. I know quite a few Chinese parents. It is true that they tend to value education and academic effort and achievement more than many native English parents, some of whom actively distrust 'swotting', 'geeks', and 'book-learning'. The Chinese-British (followed by those of Indian origin) are the highest achieving ethnic group in public examinations in the UK. My friend's children were expected to study. They attended selective academic schools, took extra lessons in Chinese at weekends, and did learn the piano. The oldest is now studying medicine in London.

But it was NEVER the case that my friend's children, or any other Chinese children whom I've met, were forbidden to have a playdate, be in a school play, watch TV, choose their own extracurricular activities (within reason), get any grade less than an A, or not be the No. 1 student. Nor were any of the Chinese children whom I know called 'garbage', at any rate in front of others. That is not typical parenting from any ethnic group; that is obsessional hothousing, bordering on emotional abuse. The mother, by her own description, is a control freak: being Chinese may influence the *particular types* of things that she seeks to control, but it does not explain or excuse the basic control-freakery.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

32. This is the correct answer. -nt

[dawg]

34. Wow! All you guys are missing the point *entirely*

This article is from WSJ. This is not about how most Chinese mothers are. This is about how our *masters* want us to raise *our* children.

[hayu_lol]

43. There are always truths in the midst of garbage...

and this article has much of both. There are reasons within the Chinese and Japanese American communities for both, but the actual truth has to be observed from the perspective of both the long-existing communities and those, like the writer, of the FOBs--fresh off the boat people. Big difference between the two as evidenced by the mass of reading material available from the major university Asian Studies Departments across the nation.

Not all Asian families are wealthy. Many, just to continue to exist, have all family members working long hours at low pay rates to survive. The latter do not have time to pursue the sort of demanding study regimen discussed in the article.

Among the long-established families in this country, discrimination from all the Asian Exclusion Acts forced the bright students to overachieve academically. They were encouraged to join the growing number of doctors and other professionals since no one was hiring Asians at regular jobs. Professional class parents usually saw to it that their children followed in their footsteps. No surprises there. Those parents who were dishwashers in restaurants or garment workers in sweatshops did not--do not--have the time to personally supervise their children as the writer proclaims. They are more like their counterparts in the greater community(American mix)who don't have the time available.

Keep in mind too, that Confucian thinking puts total emphasis on family over all--the absolute supremacy of the family first. This still exists very strongly.

Hard to properly answer such an article without a thorough study of the past 150 year history of the Chinese in America and a study of the Asian in America for a somewhat lesser period.

There are some truths in the article. There is also considerable fiction and untruths. Generalizations are pretty useless when looking for truth. One such example would be the emphasis on piano and violin. One has to understand that such instruments are readily available to many students where other instruments are not. Had a high school chum with an extraordinary sense of humor(50-53)who played bass trombone. Gotta take this article with a real grain of salt.

One could probably write a similar article about American parents who do the same things with football, soccer, cheerleading and so on...with much less emphasis on the academic side of school.

Truths and Untruths.

[TwilightGardener]

37. Wow--withholding food and water and bathroom breaks until a difficult piano piece was learned.

That's just abusive. There's no other word for it. Why does her (American) husband let her do this?

[LisaL]

38. How does he not let her do something?

[TwilightGardener]

39. No--I'm suggesting he could divorce her and sue for custody.

Because she's got a screw loose.

[LisaL]

40. Why? From what I gleaned from the article, she is quite

an accomplished woman, who successfully raised two beautiful children.

[TwilightGardener]

41. All sorts of people look good from the outside shiny surface.

But in private they abuse their kids. Not allowing your child to use the bathroom, drink water, threatening to starve them--that's not a "cultural difference", that's abuse. I have no problem with having high expectations of a kid. I do have a problem with creating actual physical discomfort as a motivator to achieve perfection. And edit to add: If white fundie Christian parents were using the withholding food/water/bathroom breaks to make their kids memorize the bible, the attitude here would be "STRING THEM UP!!!"

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

121. Oh, she "accomplished" something, all right.

Her life is miserable, and she's making sure her daughters' will be too.

[lumberjack_jeff]

46. Is he not a parent?

He stops her from abusing his child by saying "stop".

[MattBaggins]

53. No shit

If he ridiculed her and refused to let her sleep, eat, drink or use the bathroom just to "train her to be a better woman"; people wouldn't be praising him either.

[LisaL]

70. Since when having expectations for a child is abuse?

[treestar]

73. If they are beyond the child's ability and the child is put down over it?

That's not OK.

[LisaL]

75. Since the child learned to do it, clearly it was not beyond

the child's ability.

[treestar]

76. Are you talking about that piano piece?

because that was evil. There was no need for that child to play that piece ever - she could have done a different one.

also parents often ascribe ability that is not there, due to their own pride.

[TwilightGardener]

94. You'd learn to do all sorts of shit you never thought you could, too--if it meant

you could finally eat, drink, sleep, or relieve your bladder. I wouldn't treat an animal that way, let alone a child.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. Expecting a 7 year old to master the piano before peeing is an unrealistic expectation. n/t

[Brooklyns_Finest]

42. Chinese Mothers

Are Superior.

I think they put the Jewish mom to shame.

[pnwmom]

110. That kind of parenting isn't superior, it's the result of a personality disorder

called narcissism and it's sick.

And those kind of parents exist in all cultures.

[ironrooster]

47. OK have to weigh in here -

My oldest daughter calls me her "Asian Dad" (I'm not - but I do tend to share some
of the parenting characteristics). For example, I was really tough on her
and equally tough on her younger siblings as far as school grades.
3 of my 4 kids are straight A students. My oldest is an accomplished
musician (she plays a wind instrument) who practices
enthusiastically on her own, without my prodding. She scored not perfectly -
but high on the SAT and is applying to RICE among others. My children
were/are allowed to watch movies (DVDs) on the TV - b/c although we have
high speed internet, we have no cable TV. Before they can
"play" on the internet - e.g., Youtube etc..., they must put in
the requisite amount of reading/studying time. We also eat as a family
together at dinner. I tolerate not disrespect.

That said, and the hardass dad that I am, the author of the WSJ article comes
across even to me as somewhat unstable and overly obsessed with her children's
performance. Only piano or violin - no play dates - no sleepovers? (give me a break
that's just crazy).

I agree that Asian parents have something to teach - but the reverse is
true as well. The lady needs to chill.

[WinkyDink]

48. Well, I'd say, "Yeah, and her brother, too! " Except.........

[zanana1]

50. That was sick.

The parent who wrote the article obviously never thinks she might be wrong about anything. That is a form of sickness in itself. The Chinese parents she writes about are most definitely not superior--a robot could do the same thing and not harm the child emotionally. Both the parents and the victim children of these parents need help.

[XemaSab]

51. I've had three close Chinese-American friends

I know anecdotes are not data, but 2/3 of my friends had MONSTERS for mothers.

One of my friends was taken away by CPS for the level of physical abuse that she suffered, and the other one SHOULD have been taken away. The one who should have been taken away, her mom got a bamboo cane, and when my friend did ANYTHING out of line her mom would give her 50 whacks with the cane. She'd be covered in welts for weeks.

This was in San Jose, CA in the 1980's, BTW.

That Asian parenting style often comes with a VERY ugly down side.

[Dappleganger]

56. Sadly, I know a similar situation.

American husband, chinese mother (mainland) and 3 kids. All of them rebelled against her big time and got into a shit-ton of trouble. She used to try and force them (physically) to do things until the son one day turned on her and she never touched him again. I know for a fact that she denigrates her daughters constantly, believing that shame or abuse is the only way to get them to change. She completely failed as a parent.

[alp227]

123. MY HOMETOWN! So unbelievable.

I've lived in San Jose since '98 (2nd grade) and one of my Chinese friends as far as I can remember lived in a corporal punishment household, another had a devoutly Christian mother who threw away his Harry Potter/scififantasy books.

[Dappleganger]

55. This woman is legitimizing her abusive behavior by the results.

And yes, her husband should have stepped in to protect the children and remove them from that environment. I grew up in an abusive family, and I made mostly straight-A's and did extremely well in sports. The only time my father ever approved of me was when either I or my team "won." That made my life pretty miserable.

I'm in agreement with the other poster who said that if this woman had been a fundamentalist christian this forum would be ready to string her up.

[LisaL]

58. The proof is in the pudding.

If she was able to raise successful children, why shouldn't she look at the results as a proof that the way she raised these children is working?

[datasuspect]

60. and results are what matter

sometimes consolation is the slimy balm that soothes the sting of being a loser.

[Dappleganger]

62. She raised compliant robots.

I would not consider them successful children.

[LeftishBrit]

64. First of all, we only have her word for it

And secondly, what is 'success'? Is it measured only by formal measures of achievement?

If her children get A grades, but end up with mental health problems, or end up bullying others in the way that they were bullied, is that success?

I don't agree with the anti-intellectual culture of parts of Western society, but I also don't agree with bullying children into achieving their mother's chosen goals. And as I stated earlier, this extreme of it is not typical of any ethnic group.

[LisaL]

80. No we don't just have her word for it.

Of course the children are still quite young but from what I could google about at least the oldest one she is doing very well academically and playing the piano.

[LeftishBrit]

92. A lot of children who are NOT threatened and pressurized and deprived of ordinary social activities.

do well academically and play musical instruments. It generally has more to do with growing up in a home where books and music are part of everyday life than with the amount of pressure applied.

I know quite a few people who are academically and/or musically able - including the children of the Chinese-British friend whom I mentioned - without having grown up in a pressure cooker.

Maybe the girl will continue to do well academically, and live a happy life. Maybe she will have a breakdown. Maybe she will rebel against all academic and musical activities. Maybe she will become the kind of conformist who can do well at things that she's specifically told to do, but lacks the originality and self-motivation for achieving anything that is not prescribed for her. Who knows?

[pnwmom]

105. If you are in favor of education, you could try

educating yourself about these kinds of parents -- the ones who would call their children "garbage" if they don't perform on command.

Here's Alice Miller's classic work on the children of parents who drive them to perform out of their own narcissistic needs.

http://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised...

"As charming performers who skillfully reflect their parents expectations, far too many children grow into adults driven to greater and greater achievements by an underlying sense of worthlessness. Never allowed to express their true feelings, and having lost touch with their true selves, they act out their repressed feelings with episodes of depression and compulsive behavior. They in turn inflict the same legacy of repression on their own children.

"This poignant and thought-provoking book shows how narcissistic parents form and deform the lives of their children. The Drama of the Gifted Child is the first step toward helping readers reclaim their lives by discovering their own needs and their own truth."

[whatchamacallit]

115. Mission Accomplished!

"Judging by my child's progress in the only things that matter in life, report cards and piano recitals, I'm a great mom!" L O L.

[pnwmom]

100. Her children are still children. And we don't know how many years

as adults they're going to spend in therapy -- or whether they'll even live to adulthood.

Or, if they live, what they're going to write about their controlling, narcissistic, witch of a mother someday.

[LisaL]

116. It sounds to me like the woman herself was raised in a similar

way she is trying to raise her kids. She certainly made it to adulthood and by all appearances is very successful.

[pnwmom]

117. That's the typical course for surviving narcissists. The parent sucks the life out of the child,

the child goes on to suck the life out of her own children.

Some of them do go on to become great successes, in the eyes of the world. But they have a sense of worthlessness inside that they then attempt to fill through their own children.

Those who are less successful self-medicate, kill themselves, etc. The narcissistic model of child-raising produces people at both extremes of the "success" scale.

[datasuspect]

59. to make an omelette, you must break eggs.

nt

[LeftishBrit]

67. Children aren't a food for others to eat, and don't need to be broken. (nt)

[datasuspect]

68. if the worst a child gets is a demanding parent who holds them to standards . . .

and if THAT is so freaking horrible, they will in no way be prepared for the savagery of the command, control, and obey capitalist machine that will swallow them whole from the first day they set foot in kindergarten until the day they die.

people may not agree with the mother's methods, but those kids will be in the upper 1% of ANYTHING they attempt. they won't need consolation and self-esteem building.

kids like that will end up being your boss by the time they are 23.

[treestar]

61. I hate that crap about how a B is not good enough

A teacher pointed out to us once that a C means average, you are doing what you are supposed to be doing. As and Bs are very good.

[datasuspect]

65. win, win, always play to win . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_UqGtFu2eM

[LisaL]

69. If one strives to just being average, I suppose C is just fine.

[treestar]

72. Somebody has to be average

I don't see that there is reason to be ashamed of that.

But the point was that it means you are passing the class. So there is no reason to look down on it. And a B is above average. The woman in the article insisted on As only. which is unrealistic. Kids should not feel bad because they got Bs.

[LisaL]

81. If her children are getting As only then it's not unrealistic, is it?

[treestar]

86. Someday one of them will get a B in something

And for them, it will be a disaster. When B is above average.

[whatchamacallit]

77. Cranking out the shiniest widgets...

Only two (western) instruments are legitimate? She's a zealot. Dogmatic and self-impoverished. Prideful fail.

[mainer]

63. she is NOT like every Chinese mother

She's an exaggerated cartoon of one.

Yes, they value education. Yes, almost every Asian kid knows how to play an instrument (usually strings or piano). But this woman takes it to an extreme that's unrecognizable to most Asian kids,

[Lucian]

71. That woman is certifiably insane.

If she was my mother, I would've ran away a long time ago.

[Book Lover]

74. What bullshit

As many others have pointed out upthread - this is abuse, plain and simple. Maybe not actionable, but abuse nonetheless.

Secondly, I really wonder how she would have handled a disabled child.

[onpatrol98]

78. Talk about smug...

The smugness of the mother from the article was almost palpable. I consider myself a strict parent, but she makes me seem tame in comparison.

Did I read it right that she's a college professor? I would not want to be in her class. I remember once when my husband was between jobs...finishing grad school and looking for a new position. A woman from India asked me why my husband didn't like to work.

I told her that my husband had always worked, he was a graduate assistant at that time. With a straight face, she went on to tell me how disappointed she would have been if she had married a lazy man. For them, if you didn't work at something all the time, you were lazy. Unemployment compensation...unnecessary, it would encourage laziness. Mind you, she didn't work.

Her husband owned huge hotels in our area. They lived in a huge, huge (one more time), huge home. She didn't work. Her sons were straight A children. But, honestly they generally looked miserable. They're older now, and still look miserable. They're well mannered. They do play a couple of instruments very well. But, I can't imagine what kind of men they'll be with that general aura of unhappiness they seem to have hanging over them.

[LisaL]

79. She is a professor at Yale and published a couple of books (so far).

I'd say that's quite accomplished.

[whatchamacallit]

82. Again, if the only way to measure success is by resume

she's doing well. Rather narrow way to regard the human experience IMO.

[LisaL]

83. How else could possibly measure success of someone I

don't know? I'd say being a professor at Yale and publishing books is quite an accomplishment.

[treestar]

87. At what cost?

Others have published books without being raised like this.

It's arguable she could have done more had she not lived under such a cruel regime.

ANyone who is that much of a control freak will have problems. Something uncontrollable comes along in life, eventually.

[LeftishBrit]

91. FWIW, I know quite a few people who have published academic books - including myself

We managed it without being bullied by our parents.

There's a difference between encouraging academic achievement and being a power-freak.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

112. I've also published an academic book

and I did it on my own initiative without being browbeaten by my parents.

[onpatrol98]

90. I'm a bit conflicted...

I believe there is value in the article. Her perspective of assuming that your child can do it...as opposed to not being able to do it, seems alright to me. Another point, by the time our children decide what they "want to do when they grow up", they've lost years of proper preparation. We're the adults. We should be more proactive.

I tell my kids to read over the material until they understand it. For me, an A means mastery of a topic. I want my children to aim for mastery. I expect A's from them and typically see A's and B's. For me, anything less assumes you weren't prepared or that you lacked a proper foundation. Our goal is always an A. I don't expect a complex about a B.

My children do play musical instruments. I encouraged it. I didn't choose the instrument. However, if you want to play it. You should practice it. I haven't had to push practicing. At times I wish I could hide one or two of them. We don't encourage sleep overs. We're not nearly that familiar with other parents. So, maybe as teenagers, we had that one child whose parent we knew very well...then yes. Otherwise, no. People do and believe all kinds of things these days.

My parents told us, we would need to be "twice as good". They meant it. We believed it. At times, it has turned out to be true. So, although I don't tell it to my children. Why share that chip? It is still in my head. In America, my child will have to be better in order to get a fair chance. Just because Johnny can walk down any street at Midnight, doesn't mean you should try it.

The reason I think the article may actually have value is because it is people like this young woman who will be setting the standards. Like it or not. It helps to know her perspective. I think she's a bit unhinged...and a bit condescending in her general attitude. But, it's an article I'll share with my sons. Some universities in America are watching a transition. More foreign students (from better schools) in our undergraduate and graduate schools. In fact, at the graduate level in some programs, more foreign students than American students.

In a world where opportunities are becoming fewer and fewer, she's telling us how one part of the world is preparing their children to compete. We don't have to use her methods. But, we can't stick our heads in the sand, either.

[pnwmom]

101. So? I lived in a university town and know many more accomplished people

with highly accomplished ADULT children who weren't abused to get these results.

[LisaL]

104. Abuse? Oh please.

Apparently the fact that someone doesn't cuddle their children is considered abuse.

[pnwmom]

106. I hope you don't have children if you think

calling them names, telling them they are "garbage," or calling them "fatty" isn't abuse.

Or that this description of how she forced her child to learn a certain piano piece doesn't describe abuse:

"Lulu couldn't do it. We worked on it nonstop for a week, drilling each of her hands separately, over and over. But whenever we tried putting the hands together, one always morphed into the other, and everything fell apart. Finally, the day before her lesson, Lulu announced in exasperation that she was giving up and stomped off.

"Get back to the piano now," I ordered.

"You can't make me."

"Oh yes, I can."

"Back at the piano, Lulu made me pay. She punched, thrashed and kicked. She grabbed the music score and tore it to shreds. I taped the score back together and encased it in a plastic shield so that it could never be destroyed again. Then I hauled Lulu's dollhouse to the car and told her I'd donate it to the Salvation Army piece by piece if she didn't have "The Little White Donkey" perfect by the next day. When Lulu said, "I thought you were going to the Salvation Army, why are you still here?" I threatened her with no lunch, no dinner, no Christmas or Hanukkah presents, no birthday parties for two, three, four years. When she still kept playing it wrong, I told her she was purposely working herself into a frenzy because she was secretly afraid she couldn't do it. I told her to stop being lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic."

[LisaL]

118. Her method of raising the kids appear to be one end of the

extreme. The way is to let the child do whatever it is the child wants.
The best way to raise the kids is probably somewhere in between.

[pnwmom]

119. I agree. The opposite extreme is not effective, either.

In fact, the opposite extreme is neglect, or worse.

Children do need guidance and discipline, and they need to learn and to persevere. Letting them get away with anything might make things easier in the short run but doesn't help them in the long run.

[Frank Booth]

127. I had her as a professor, and really wasn't impressed.

She seemed to be very good at promoting herself, but she wasn't a very good teacher and, academically, she didn't have much original thought.

[KossackRealityCheck]

84. Worst part: Chua justifies her abuse with ethnic chauvinism. Not Chinese at all.

I have to preface this by saying I grew up in diverse NYC and had friends of every ethnic background, including Chinese, Korean and Japanese, and still have Chinese friends.

While Chinese people do value education -- probably in part because China developed civil service exams as a means of advancement about 1000 years before the rest of the world, and for hundreds of years, studying and taking exams was one of the few ways out of grinding poverty for virtually anyone -- this extreme level is not typical.

In fact, I went to high school in the Bronx in the 1970s. I mean, "Escape from New York" era Bronx; I mean "The Bronx is Burning" era Bronx. As a black kid from Brooklyn arriving in the Bronx, who had to get through the South Bronx every day on the train, I looked around for "protection." Fortunately, I found it among the Chinese gangster kids from China town.

She is stereotyping her own race, because there are many, many ways of "being" Chinese. Yes, there are upwardly mobile, upper middle class Chinese parents who focus on model minority status, but there are many other Chinese "styles" -- from artistic, to business, to stone cold original gangster.

This is just an abusive parent trying to dress her abuse up in ethnic pride.

[fortyfeetunder]

93. She's only playing the game WE set up

From what I read elsewhere in DU, have seen the opinions supporting anti-affirmative action, meritocracy, hire & promote only the best. And there are at least 5 states that have enacted anti-affirmative action legislation (and one of them is the author's residence). Given that, what is a concerned parent to do? Instill a model of perfection. She's only playing the game WE set up and wants her children to be successful and their accomplishments are beyond reproach.

It is no secret in the minority community that we have to work twice as hard to be considered as competent as the dominant community. She's playing that game too.

[LisaL]

103. I don't think so.

She appears to be raising the children the same way she herself was raised. It has to do with cultural differences more than anything.

[pnwmom]

122. Except there are people like that in all cultures.

There are many Chinese immigrants in my city, and I don't know any who are raising their children as she describes. But every culture probably includes some narcissistic, perfectionistic parents who view their children as mere extensions of their own perfect selves.

[whatchamacallit]

124. It makes sense this was in the Wall Street Journal

For some the only measure of success is material success. A cherished but bogus conservative belief is that the only thing between you and riches is sloth. This poor wretch has reduced parenting to preparing her kids for a Wall Street Journal world.

[tnvoter]

125. I grew up in similar environment -- and I'm grateful for it

As it turns out, I am also a mother. I am also Chinese. I share some of this woman's opinions, though not all.

Do I push my kids? yes. Do I tell them that being lazy is unacceptable? Yes. Do I make them stay up until they finish their obligations (homework, music practice, chores)? Yes.

Are they better for it? Absolutely. My kids are not out doing drugs. They are not skipping school. They are sensible, responsibl and mature (for their age) with a wonderful a sense of humor to boot.

They jokingly refer to me as their "Chinese Mom" when explaining to caucasian friends why they can't stay overnight or have to play the violin. My kids are proud of the fact that they get the attention they do, because many of their friends do not.