What the public has to understand is that the planet is in peril ....

[defendandprotect]

and certainly our ability to survive on the planet --

And this has nothing to do with 50 or 30 or 20 years from now --

And, no -- neither Kyoto or new light bulbs is going to help this --


The first thing that has to be understood is that we had a 50 year delay in our

feeling the effects of Global Warming -- this gave the oil industry the opportunity

to spend tens of billions of dollars on a campaign of lies to confuse and fool the

public about Global Warming.

Currently, we are now only experiencing the effects of the burning of fossil fuels

up to about 1960. THINK ABOUT THAT --


Global Warming is about HEATING up the atmosphere which brings chaotic weather --

droughts/floods, storms, hurricanes, cyclones, tornados -- and earthquakes.

Earthquakes in turn generate more volcanic activity.


The melting of the glaciers, the removal of pressure on the tectonic plates and the

new water weight on other technoic plates is increasing the number of earthquakes

and the severity of earthquakes.

Global Warming has the power to change weather systems -- and it is happening.


We have known about Global Warming for more than 50 years -- in fact, scientists saw

more than 100 years ago the negative effects of the industrial revolution on nature.


We have long known that we have to stop burning fossil fuels --

The only way that can be done is to NATIONALIZE OIL and our natural resources which

should have been done decades ago -- no private company should have control of over our

natural resources.

Additionally, the MIC uses 80% of our oil -- which makes oil a national security issue.

So behind "Drill now - think later!" is the MIC -- and that might make a bit clearer

just why Obama was so protective of BP during the Gulf disaster.

No oil/no war --


It is impossible to say how all of this will compound and how rapidly Global Warming will

move now -- our scientists watching have been repeated in shock at the speed.


But, certainly, unless we are unable to hear and have lost all our common sense we must begin

to convert every car to electric -- solar batteries are available --- much new technology

has been suppressed. The government can subsidize the manufacture of electric cars --

it can subsidize the purchase prices -- but most of all we have to stop burning fossil fuels!


Meanwhile, also notice the news from Australia last week that their own Global Warming scientists

are under threat of their lives. Not difficult to think that the same thing has been happening

in America and everywhere -- as scientific information is suppressed and oil industry propaganda

is pushed.

For those who have never seen it before, here is the 1992 Wrold Scientists Warning to Humanity -- *


Dollar bills are meaningless -- always have been - but most especially when this much reality

hits us -- we need a complete culture change.

We are all threatened by capitalism because we are all labor.

Those who have gained control of our people's government think only in fascist terms.


Global Warming is becoming more severe now -- it should be a topic of conversation for every

American - every day --



http://www.ucsusa.org/about/1992-world-scientists.html

[canadianbeaver]

1. If you love this planet...Helen Caldicott.......the warning cry....n/t

[defendandprotect]

53. Caldicott is a marvel -- she keeps on tellin' it --

:)

Loved that she was speaking out re Fukushima --

And, if you noticed last week, Australia was reporting that their Global Warming

scientists' lives are being threatened!! :eyes:


Pressure, imo, is being applied more and more forcefully to keep the LID on everything

the rightwing doesn't want us to know --

:(

[cleanhippie]

2. The planet is not in peril, humans are.

The planet will evolve and continue long after we have made it uninhabitable for ourselves. The planet is just fine.


Now, if you want to say that humans are in peril because we are destroying the environment that sustains us.....I'm on board with that.

[defendandprotect]

3. Nonsense -- there is NO guarantee the earth will continue to turn ...

We have earthquakes moving the earth off it's axis --

FUKU by 3" --

We have increasing numbers of earthquakes and increasing severity of earthquakes --

which also generate volcanic activity --

and no one can say how this will all compound --


Again -- the dams and reservoirs our Army Corps of Engineers built are "impacting the

rotation of the earth" --

Nor do we have any real idea what damage the atomic era has done to our planet and

its systems -- Hiroshima, Nagasaki -- and atomic bombs exploded on land -- Bikini Islands --

in the oceans -- and underground! We were even nice enough to let the British test their

weapons at our facilities!!

Even more insanely, we exploded nuclear weapons in space -- !!


And we are no where near even beginning to take control of this threat --

it remains in the hands of suicidal corporatists/elites who control our MIC

and our natural resources -- and our people's government.

[cleanhippie]

5. the dams and reservoirs our Army Corps of Engineers built are "impacting the rotation of the earth"

Source that?


And yes, the planet will continue to turn, with or without us.

[defendandprotect]

21. New York Times ...

probably almost 20 years ago now --

And you might have noted around that time the discussions began about

undoing the dams -- based on many reasons, of course -- including the

harm they were doing to the environment and fish -- etal.

[defendandprotect]

54. HERE . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/03/news/dams-for-water-supply-are-altering-earth-s-orbit-expert-says.html

[redgiant]

104. Did you read the article?

The building of dams mitigates, to an *extremely* small degree, the slowing of earth's rotation caused by tidal effects. Humankind's effect on global rotation is totally inconsequential. Now you can breathe easier.

[defendandprotect]

114. Those "conclusions" are not necessarily the conclusions that others might reach ... in fact,

I'm sure you are aware that going back to about that time there was an

effort to undo the dams --

naturally there are many reasons to undo them --

but "slowing the earth's rotation" might well have been one of them --


And, btw, the article simply testifies to the impact -- that was not the

article which I read.

[defendandprotect]

130. kr

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nichomachus]

9. Earthquakes, volcanoes, and floods

Were how the earth was formed in the first place.

[defendandprotect]

22. And you're suggesting that earthquakes, volcanoes and floods are now having a positive effect?

[nichomachus]

26. For the earth -- kind of neutral. For humans -- not so much. But

your contention was that the planet is in peril. The planet is changing, not being destroyed. So, it's different -- neither positive nor negative in geological terms. Humans, a latecomer to the planet, and not very good guests at that, are in peril -- and their suicidal demise may save the planet, as well as other species, all of whom live in harmony with the planet.

[defendandprotect]

31. The planet is in peril . . . due to Global Warming which exploiters have put in place ....

Nothing to do with any natural "change" -- it is created by human activity --

especially exploitation of nature -- and pounding down of natural resources.

Again -- we don't know if the planet will keep turning --

the turmoil will be immense and we have only yet seen a small part of it --

[redgiant]

105. Not...

...in peril. The "planet" will be just fine, although never unchanging, until that time when the sun has exhausted it's nuclear fuel and swells to swallow the inner planets in a fiery death. And not a damn thing we do will change that.

[defendandprotect]

115. Try reading Gore's Rolling Stone article ...

Page 2 --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1354117

[Maine_Nurse]

12. Of course it will...

With the possible sole unbelievably unlikely exception of a man-made black hole, you give humans far too much credit for the small influence they have on the earth itself. We are a fart in the wind of this planet.

We are going to end our species (and thousands of others, no doubt) no matter what ridiculous lengths we go to trying to stop it. We keep breeding and that is all it will take. Every human life emits over 250 million BTUs (due to biological processes) in their lifetime. In a given year, the humans on the planet emit 21 quadrillion BTU's. Hmm, might just impact global temps, don't you think? And that is just the heat of being alive. How much energy (which ends up as heat) does each human consume in electricity, combustion, chemical energy, etc? I'd have to guess it is an awful lot more than our body temps. The only thing that will save us is plague. Mother Nature keeps coming up with new diseases to try thin the herd, but we keep fighting back with medicine. We will lose in the end, though, one way or another.

[defendandprotect]

32. Again, there is no guarantee -- as scientists have told us clearly ... no one knows how

all of this -- i.e., Global Warming -- will compound --

In fact, it was Ted Turner who raised that question at a National Press Club speech --

You may consider yourself to be earth's "fart" -- however if you've read anything of

the pollution of the planet since the industrial revolution began, you may see it different.

Hit the library --

The planet is a living organism just as capable of being severely harmed as our own bodies are.


So you're worried about HEAT from human bodies -- ?

Not from atomic bombs being set off by any chance ... including in outer space???

Just a yawn, huh?

And you actually think that populations have been "breeding" -- ???

No -- populations have been forced to breed by separating them from nature --

and the plants/drugs which are our medicines and our birth control.

Most of those plants which provided birth control and even infertility if one wished

were destroyed and so was knowledge of them.

Nature is pro-choice -- patriarchy is not.

Did you think the witch-burnings were about keeping warm?


:rofl:


Some of the info and plants do still exist -- RU486 is based on one of those concepts --

keeping a fertilized egg from adhering to the lining of the womb.

[Maine_Nurse]

102. Uhhh, the planet has endured worse cold and heat before and...

will do so again until the sun decides to incinerate it. You might be confusing the planet with the organisms on it. We might all die, the planet will be fine and will regenerate yet again.

[defendandprotect]

116. "Before" ... didn't include nuclear reactors, amassing of atomic weapons ...

hundreds of oil drilling rigs in the Gulf, etal --

on and on --

And, the sun is growing hotter because the earth can now absorb less heat

from the sun.

No one can guarantee that the planet will survive this chaos --

but the central point is Global Warming and the role capitalism has played in

creating it --

Try Gore's article in Rolling Stone -- page 2 --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1354117

[Maru Kitteh]

38. Holy SHIT. I hope I never land in your ER, or on your ward.

I'd hate to get caught wasting BTU's n' bein' alive and stuff. I've never met a medical professional who lamented so completely the success of medicine in preventing widespread death and suffering.

I kid. But really - nurse - you might need some self-care. Meditate, renew, get a massage, go on a vacay. Something.

[Maine_Nurse]

100. Lol, that wasn't the nurse in me, it was the biologist.

We may not have reached the true carrying capacity of our species yet on this planet, but we get closer every day. In the end we will likely cause our own severe decline, if not our extinction. I don't lament medicine at all, but it is factual that as we live longer due to medical progress, we rack up more massive costs of care due to wear and tear items and cancers, at the same time consuming more resources and adding more to pollution of every type (including excreted medications), than we did back when we all died by our thirties. That added longevity adds greatly to the overall population of the planet. If we suddenly cured all cancers next week and found a way to keep us all alive until 100, you'd see a spike in the rate at which our population increases in short order, speeding up our own demise. If we don't figure out a way to massively colonize other planets/moons pretty soon, we are going to have some very bad things to deal with.

[Scuba]

60. Nonsense. The planet will be spinning merrily away billions of years...

...after humans ceased to exist.

[glinda]

65. Humans have polluted far beyond what the creatures long term can sustain if we are gone. Nuclear etc

[hobbit709]

83. Nothing humans have done is on the scale of the planet.

[defendandprotect]

117. And yet our dams and reservoirs are

impacting the rotation of the earth --

The Fuku earthquake -- like previous ones -- moved the earth off it's axis by 3" --

and seismic activity is increasing -- due to the Glaciers Melting.


The last drop off was something the size of Manhattan Island!

No worries about BP or the Gulf, either !!

Dead zones in our oceans -- holes in our ozone --

but we on the human scale don't do anything that could possibly effect the planet!!


Especially if you discount nuclear reactors and atomic era/weapons!


:eyes:

[defendandprotect]

124. "20% of the Global Warming pollution we spew into the sky will still be there 20,000 years from now"

Gore --

If you haven't read his new Rolling Stone article --

recommend page 2 --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1354151

Using an indirect link cause something in the RR script is bothering my computer --

[anarch]

79. about 7.6 billion years

give or take. Then the sun will expand and engulf the planet.

[snooper2]

84. As the earthquakes move the tectonic plates together...

eventually all of the land mass is going to be in East Asia as one large continent...

Then the earth will start to spin more with a wobble. As that gets worse and worse it will throw the earth off it's orbit with the sun and the planet will careen to the edge of our solar system.



D&P, we still have space left on our craft destined to check out those distinct shapes on Mars if you are interested. We may try to colonize.

[burrowowl]

43. Yup! It is humans

who are in peril!

[robertpaulsen]

107. Sounds like Carlin.

George Carlin - Saving the Planet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw

[RandomKoolzip]

4. Earthquakes have nothing to do with global warming.

The rest of your post I agree with.

[cleanhippie]

8. You agree that dams and reservoirs are impacting the rotation of the earth?

Really? The OP will not provide a source for that claim. If you agree with the OP on that, can you provide some support for that claim?

[JHB]

10. If you go to enough decimal places, it's right...

...for the same reason the earthquake affected it. The effect of distribution of mass on angular momentum.

On a human scale, though, the technical term is "jack-shit nothing".

[RandomKoolzip]

20. Jeezis - I must have missed that. Ugh.

Sorry. I hate when righteousness is mixed with woo. Makes it difficult to extract one from the other.

[cleanhippie]

23. No worries, most cannot keep up with the OP's conspiracy theories and Woo anyway.

[Wilms]

24. Then I'll provide the link for you.

Dams for Water Supply Are Altering Earth's Orbit, Expert Says

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/03/03/news/dams-for-water-supply-are-altering-earth-s-orbit-expert-says.html

Took as long to find it as it would to post something snarky.

[cleanhippie]

25. "they pose no danger to people or the global environment"

Thanks for the link, I stand by my snark.

[defendandprotect]

35. I'm sure neither does shifting the earth off its axis ...

as earlier earthquakes and FUKU have done -- !!

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

33. You are wrong ... and it's what the Pentagon told W ...

There was a Pentagon warning to Bush re Global Warming -- something like 2002 or

so -- and among the list of chaotic weather ... it included EARTHQUAKES.

After a few years, "earthquakes" were scrubbed --

about the time that W and his EPA were scrubbing scientists papers -- I'm sure you

recall that --

Meanwhile, Australia is reporting last week that their Global Warming scientists are

being threatened -- their very lives are being threatened!

I doubt that is happening only in Australia --

We have heard very little from our world scientists re BP -- Fuku -- nukes in general --

or Global Warming of late --


Additionally here's a report on how they tried to shut down the FUKUSHIMA nuclear reactos

because of their age and because their SCIENTISTS WERE REPORTING INCREASING SEISMIC

ACTIVITY -- the Fuku nukes were built to withstand only a 7.0 earthquake --

the last was a 9, of course with more than 350 immense aftershocks -- some still in the

range of 8!



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x309897

[defendandprotect]

56. kr

[truebrit71]

73. But global warming could very well have something to do with earth quakes, no?

...

[ergot]

7. No offense, but may I ask what you're smoking?

:scared:

[defendandprotect]

36. Wish I was smoking something -- unfortunately, no --

And it looks like you have a long way to go to catch up with what's going on --

If you're truly interested, here's an excellent book on Global Warming --

"The Heat Is On!" by Ross Gelbspan -- most libraries have it --


You might track down the Pentagon Warning to Bush --- about chaotic weather, including

droughts/floods, storms, hurricanes, cyclones, tornados -- but "earthquakes" was

scrubbed about three years after the memo was out.

About the time that we later learned W's EPA was removing scientific info from scientists

reports on Global Warming --

Also note that NASA has largely been taken out of the business of reporting on our planet

-- ozone hole - Global Warming, etal --


Don't know how much of my OP you read -- but it was the 50 year delay in our feeling the

effects of GW which gave the oil industry the opportunity to lie to the public, spending

tens of billions to do it --

Given that delay, we are only now beginning to feel the effects of Global Warming based

on our activities AFTER 1960 -- !!

[sabrina 1]

89. Pentagon Report on the threat of Climate Change and how

it is a top national security issue was leaked in 2004.

Leaked Pentagon report warns climate change may bring famine, war: report

[defendandprotect]

Thank you -- K/R -- everyone should read it ....

Last week the Union of Concerned Scientists, an influential and non-partisan group that includes 20 Nobel laureates, accused the Bush administration of having deliberately distorted scientific fact to serve its policy agenda and having "misled the public".

However, the original report stated that Global Warming was a greater threat to

the US than terrorism --

and among the chaotic weather and events to be expected they included earthquakes --

About three years later, "earthquakes" was scrubbed from the report.


Haven't been able to find any source for the original comments and note that this article

didn't pick up that reference either -- it passed by me the first few times I read it --

but I went back many times and to double check that it was in fact in the report.

And it was!


I've picked up your link to add to my file because I think the reporting on the memo

in this article is itself important.

And thank you, again!


:)




Note -- repeating the LINK --

http://www.timeenoughforlove.org/saved/LeakedPentagonReportWarnsClimateChangeMayBringFamineWar.htm


And -- btw, Australia reported last week that their Global Warming scientists' are

being threatened -- their lives are being threatened!!

[Springer9]

11. It's 110 in Phoenix right now, 112 tommorrow

At what point will we get that earthquake and volcano? I'm only about 50 miles from the worlds largest operating nuclear power plant at Palo Verde.

I'm thinking we should pack up and leave RIGHT F'ING NOW!!!

[defendandprotect]

37. We had 100 degrees here in NJ in MAY ... your temps may just be rising based on

your Governor's activities?

Trust you have a pool?

Presume you didn't look at the World Scientists Warning to Humanity ---

so won't suggest any books --


Melting of the glaciers is redistributing weight on the tectonic plates which is

increasing earthquake activity -- and the severity of quakes --

Every weather condition will be increasing in number and severity --

hurricanes are traveling further north -- El Nino and La Nina are part of Global Warming --

they were once very rare occurences -- wind patterns are being changed --

I'm sure you've noticed the severe fires from California to Texas?


We have two nukes in every state -- one or two have been in the path of the floods recently.

It takes 6 months to properly shut down a nuclear reactor --

In fact, it takes a year to properly shut down those in FUKUSHIMA given their design --

and that what do we do with the waste?

[amborin]

13. knr the planet will be fine; other species, decimated; humans won't last too much longer either,

we're only here for a fragment of cosmic time

[defendandprotect]

39. Actually, the question about the planet was raised by Ted Turner/CNN at a National Press Club lunch.

many, many years ago --

there are no guarantees because there will be immensely chaotic weather ---

look at the recent weather -- tornadoes -- even tonight we had a tornado warning

in NORTHERN NJ --

As scientists made clear -- there is no way of saying how all of this will compound.

Hurricanes are coming further north --

and, yes, earthquakes will be increasing in number and severity.

[lpbk2713]

14. How did we ever let it become a political football?

Humans may just be too stupid to continue from this point on.

And this is how it ends. Not with a bang but with a whimper.

[defendandprotect]

40. Because we never found the solution to deal with the few violent among us -- the bullies ...

and it wasn't a little thing --

the violence against females which turned the planet upside down about 50,000 years ago!

We are the only species where the males are at war against the female majority.


From Palace intrigue/murder/plots by Royals who later morphed into elites/corporatists --

to the days when your land could be taken by someone willing to be violent --

and if you protested, your daughter might be raped -- or your son killed.

It's the same old thing -- violence of the rightwing --


And it has continued on throughout history without a solution --

Though I think "The Day the Earth Stood Still" came close to finding one! :)


We've had more than 50 years of out in the open right wing political violence -- the

assassination of our president which also took our people's government --

and the continuing assassination of liberal leadership --

When they couldn't kill any more they turned to stealing elections by computer --

Was there ever a "Southern Strategy" or was there only ever Diebold computers --

and the LARGE computers used buy MSM which were used to REVERSE the 2000 decision?


Btw, the LARGE computers began to come in during the mid-1960's --

the electronic voting computers in the late 1960's --

Two journalists in Florida began to investigate the nonsensical and unverifiable

election results in late 1960's --

If you're interested, here's a link to the family website where you can read their

book which is available for $3 here and there --

They wrote this book under contract and it was delivered to bookstores --

and then immediately taken off the bookshelves --


VOTESCAM -- THE STEALING OF AMERICA --

http://www.constitution.org/vote/votescam__.htm

[kelly1mm]

15. So, assuming you are correct, is there anything we can do about it now? Or,

since we are 50 years behind in the warming cycle, are we all going to be cinders in 50 years no matter what we do? If the latter, I say we should just party till the end! Margaritas and really good suntans for everyone!

[defendandprotect]

41. Basically, I'd prefer to hope -- and I'd prefer to know what's going on ... and who's responsible...

However, obviously you have your own decisions to make about that --


If I were Queen ... I'd begin converting every gasoline car to solar battery/electric --

I'd subsidize production of electric cars/solar --

and I'd subsidize purchase of them --

US also subsidized the gas station on every corner cycle -- so I think we could also

subsidize electric posts in neighborhoods and in parking lots --

The recharge cycle should be considerably shorter now --


And given the fact that we have two nuclear rectors in every state -- I don't think we're

talking about 50 years unless we begin to dismantle them -- and to disarm and lay down

nuclear missiles.

You might even meet up with some oil executives also partying -- they might even buy!!

[kctim]

16. I bet it all comes to be

on Dec. 21, 2012.

:nuke:

[Gregorian]

17. The true impact of our emissions over the last decade will not be felt until the 2040’s.

That is quoted in this link. People don't like the histrionics of those who call out a warning. I try to keep it simple, in terms of just decreasing our size. All of the rest follows. But the truth is, we have a very serious problem when one takes this lag into consideration. Because if all we've felt so far is the result of what we did up until 1970, well that is when we just got started with the co2 acceleration.

http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-the-40-year-delay-between-cause-and-effect.html


I was under the impression that this had been proven wrong. But after searching due to your thread, I found that this is indeed the case.

[defendandprotect]

44. 50 years ago was 1960 -- not 1970 --

It is also of course the immense pollution of our oceans, drinking water, lakes, streams --

BP connects to MIC -- national security state -- that's why Obama was going so gently on

on the "spill."



if you want to do something active, give up eating animals, for one --

but if you've been looking at reports here -- or if you do any of the family grocery shopping

you know that we've had disruptions in vegetation -- and the condition of our vegetables.

There are no animals, of course, without vegetation.





http://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-change-the-40-y...


I was under the impression that this had been proven wrong. But after searching due to your thread, I found that this is indeed the case.
Boycott war.


The nuclear reactors and the atomic weapons have to go -

Didn't have a chance yet to look at your link -- but will do so shortly --


Also, again, we don't know how all of this will compound --


:) and :(




PS: Getting a "broken link" report on your link --

[RevStPatrick]

18. I think we should all just kill ourselves now.

You go first!

[defendandprotect]

47. You know, back to the time of Katrina ....

there were still many here who could not believe that Katrina was part of

Global Warming --

that is aside from the complications of the W non-response and other idiocies

like the levees being insufficient -- government knew that and did nothing.



Basically I hate this subject -- would you rather not know?

[cleanhippie]

19. Wow, I think this belongs in the September 11 forum.

Wow, just wow.

[Codeine]

34. There should be an app that automatically routes all the OP's threads there. nt

[zappaman]

57. I would buy that app! n/t

[defendandprotect]

48. Are you saying you don't believe Global Warming is real?

Or are you saying you didn't know the severity of it?

Or about the delay?

or that it would cause increasing droughts/floods, storms, hurricanes,

cyclones, tornados -- and earthquakes?


Don't know where you live, but have you not noticed extreme weather conditions --

immense fires CA and TX -- etal?

Did you know nothing of the pollution of our oceans -- our lakes and streams --

our drinking water?

Did you miss BP's "spill" -- or FUKU?

[Name removed]

62. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[taught_me_patience]

27. There are a whole bunch of DUers unwilling to give up their trucks

because they might have to haul a refridgerator once every five years. If DUers won't give up their trucks, how do we expect the general public to?

[defendandprotect]

50. No one person is responsible -- government and oil industry lies are responsible ....

do you think oil industry spent tens of billions of dollars over 50 years

because they weren't sure?

Or because they were willing to lose control of our nation's oil?

Rather, they made the choice to destroy our ability to survive on this planet!


Leadership is required -- vs what we have now which is collusion with corporations --

we could begin converting every gasoline driven car to electric/solar battery --

the recharge cycles will be greatly shorter --

US government financed the "four gas stations on every corner" and they can finance

electric recharging posts along streets and in parking lots --


Government can demand that ONLY electric cars are produced -- subsidize the production --

and subsidize the purchase --

And capitalism cannot exist without POLLUTING THE PLANET --

Let's give up the meaningless striving for dollar bills and get back to things of true

value and worth!

As Native Americans asked so long ago --

Can you plant a dollar bill?

Can you eat a dollar bill?

If you stare at one long enough, will you see a sunset?



:(

[ProfessorGAC]

28. Your First Phrase. . .

. . .makes your title hyperbole.

The planet isn't in peril. It won't be until the sun goes nova. If we push it too far, the planet will shake us off like water off a labrador's neck.

The planet isn't in peril. The human race is.

You seem to know the difference. Maybe your title should reflect that.
GAC

[defendandprotect]

51. Actually, it was the question raised by Ted Turner/CNN ....

at a National Press Club luncheon many, many years ago --

and there is NO guarantee that the earth will keep turning given the

chaos that could be created with two nuclear reactors in every state --

which take 6 months to properly shut down --

and atomic weapons everywhere --

Have YOU had a tornado come thru your area yet???

[ProfessorGAC]

61. Yep!

Took a branch off my silver maple that was 14" in diameter. Pretty scary. Also, since we've gotten spoiled by technology, not having electricity for 5 days was a drag.

I'm just kind of a stickler for properly phrasing the correct reason for being environmentally conscious. The earth doesn't need us to survive. We need the earth.
GAC

[defendandprotect]

69. A long time ago ....

feminists pegged all of this kinda this way --

That there is thinking out there which suggests that we can ruin this planet

and move on to another one -- ruin that one and move on to yet another --

And, if you watch the disinformation you'll notice they suggest that any minute

we could be moving on to other planets -- get your tickets now!


Certainly I stand before nature today embarrased at the destruction of it --

many see animal-life as food -- at one time they may have been our brothers and

sisters on the planet --

It's not just losing our ability to survive here -- it's also the threat of nuclear

reactors with two in every state -- and major chaos ensuing.

Vegetation is already being widely effected by weather -- both quanity and condition.

[ProfessorGAC]

70. Reminds Me Of The Aliens in Independence Day

Use up all the resources and move on. Look how well that worked out for them.
GAC

[defendandprotect]

71. Two recommendations for you --

Read "The Day After Roswell" -- at most libraries --

and try to find the hardover with the foreward by Sen. Strom Thurmond

in his comments re the threat of "aliens" to us -- though he later denied

that he knew/beleived Roswell/aliens ever happened --


Watch for the original -- black and white -- "The Day the Earth Stood Still" --


Humanity is failing because of ....


Patriarchy -- and it's underpinning =

Organized patriarchal religion -- and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinity


Others call it -- "The bird with one wing" --


Even if 375,000 years ago aliens engineered human hybrids, violence is not a natural state --

it's a choice. Patriarchy has chosen its war on nature and women --

[ProfessorGAC]

72. Read It. Saw It.

Michael Renny is great in the original. He's so calm and collected as he's here to tell humans to get with the program or suffer the consequences.

I do like the remake, mostly because i like Keanu and Jennifer and John Cleese plays the professor. But, the original deserves its fame, 100%.

I read that book quite a long time ago. Back during the Roswellmania of the 80's, i think. A guy at work gave it to me. He was way into that stuff. He's the guy that also lent me Velokovsky's "When Worlds Collide". He had a whole library of UFO and quack-science books. Smart, educated guy, but kind of around the bend on that stuff.

GAC

[defendandprotect]

75. Interesting ---

and, yes, LOVE Michael Rennie -- and the central idea of dealing with the violent

almost by remote control --


Re the book -- did it include Thurmond's foreword -- and what did you make of his claims?


He had a whole library of UFO and quack-science books. Smart, educated guy, but kind of around the bend on that stuff.

Evidently, you don't feel there is any truth to alien observation of our planet -- ?

Or alien involvement with our evolution -- ?


Then -- what do you make of Edgar Mitchell, astronaut -- was he hallucinating BEFORE they

selected him to join Apollo?


Apollo Astronaut Speaks on UFO, Alien Claims : Discovery Channel
... Edgar Mitchell chats with Discovery Space about media reports of his claiming UFOs and ... got two of them and right now they're ... there working with The Disclosure Project ...
dsc.discovery.com/space/qa/alien-ufo-edgar-mitchell.html - Cached


And what do you make of the Disclosure Project and the many speaking out -- ?

http://www.disclosureproject.org/


What do you think of Reagan's sighting -- ?

Or Carter's sighting and his subsequence go-around with then head of the CIA --

Poppy Bush -- who told Carter that he did not have "high enough security clearance

to see the UFO information" -- ?

Keep in mind that would put UFO information on a higher level of secrecy than atomic weapons!

[ProfessorGAC]

78. I Was Separating The Two

Sorry if that was confusing. I meant to separate the UFO thing from the quack science thing. My fault.

As to the book, i don't remember the Thurmond thing. It was hardcover. This guy NEVER bought paperbacks. He even had some classics in leatherbound editions. He was (probably still is, i just haven't seen him for a long time) a voracious reader.

I neither believe nor disbelieve anything about alien observations. Some credible people have come forward, others not so credible. So, the jury's out.

But, i'm open to the possiblity. I'm quite certain we're not alone in the universe.

And sorry about misspelling Rennie's name. I forgot the spelling. But, i sure remember him in that movie.
GAC

[defendandprotect]

91. Understand --

I'm more than open to the possibility --

but there's no denying that I certainly sense that what I may be open to

and try to understand intellectually, the emotional is a whole other ball game!


And think as a female, I've probably been a bit more interested in everything

Michael Rennie than you are -- :)




Just for your info -- as I recall it ...

Thurmond was relating that he had been clued in on Roswell in a timely way --

-- can't recall if he said he had seen any of the aliens -- or just heard about

it in reports. But his presentation was the threat we face from aliens.

Later, Thurmond denied it all -- and by then he was so old his office could just

lean on that. :evilgrin:

But Sen. Strom Thurmond was one of the right wing members of Congress who got

funding from the CIA -- which raised money from any rw sources -- including the

KKK and Nazis.

Later --

[opihimoimoi]

29. solve for ignorance and ye shall have a good life......good grief guys....

[Codeine]

30. There is so much bullshit in that post it's hard to know where to start.

Jesus fuck.

[Maru Kitteh]

42. Did you read it ??? !! ???

'Cause I sure didn't. :rofl:

[Codeine]

45. I also crane my neck to look at car crashes.

:evilgrin:

[SammyWinstonJack]

46. rec for my climate changing denying repub neighbor who also has a "No Socialism" sign

in his yard, pointed in my direction.

[defendandprotect]

52. As I was mentioning up thread ....

Even at the time of Katrina here at DU ....

there were many DU'ers who couldn't believe Global Warming was real or serious!

They had trouble believing that increasingly severe storms/hurricanes were part

of Global Warming.

We've come some distance since then -- but sadly so have weather conditions which

I think are kind of waking them up!!


Otoh, I really dislike talking about this with young families with children --

though when you see some of them still think that the "trick" of the e-mails traded

by scientists means that there is no Global Warming ... you have to try!!


:(

[bongbong]

68. Your possible reply

A sign pointing at his property, "Brainwashed corporate tool"

[SidDithers]

49. Oy vey...

Unrec for nonsense.

Sid

[Warren DeMontague]

55. Plus, we bombed the moon.

So technically, we're imperiling the entire solar system!!!! :o

[lumberjack_jeff]

134. +1 n/t

[Frank Cannon]

58. This planet has survived perfectly well for more than 4 billion years.

Homo sapiens has been around, at best, for only about 200,000 years. That is 200,000/4,000,000,000 or .00005 of the time the Earth has existed. Barely even detectable, from a geological standpoint. The Earth laughs at us.

Our planet is just fine, as it will be for countless eons to come. And I wouldn't be so quick to count humans out completely, either. We've survived some pretty awful things. I guarantee that we won't be sitting around eating Cheetos and watching American Idol for much longer, though.

[defendandprotect]

76. Nature is not laughing at us --

and you are drawing a conclusion about a planet FREE most of that time from

nuclear weapons, nuclear reactors -- and the destruction put in place

by capitalism's exploitation over the last 500 years or so.

Picture what this continent was when Columbus arrived and the great destruction

of it in such a short period of time!

In but a few hundred years where originally the forests that provided a canopy

of trees over which a squirrel could travel from coast to coast has become thin

ribbons of trees bordering our highways!

Oceans, rivers and waterways, streams and drinking water -- now destroyed.

In 37 of our states, women have rocket fuel in their breastmilk --

We have huge holes in our Ozone layer which some might have taken for granted would

have taken a lot to even damage!

Exploding nuclear weapons in outer space certainly couldn't have helped the ozone layer --

Of course, our oceans were also too large to ever be damaged by pollution - !!

Huge dead zones in the Gulf -- even before the latest BP "spill" -- !!

Species after species being damaged from pole to pole --

We also have no idea as to whether the oil we've extracted from the planet is actually

the earth's ballast --

In other words, no one can guarantee us that this planet will keep turning --

and certainly as we've destroyed the planet and nature, we've been destroying ourselves.











Rocket fuel' found in US breast milk
... is widely present in breast and cow's milk across the United States. ... 1970s"; and that "pregnant women ... it cannot be coming from rocket fuel, since many of the states ...
www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/24/perchlorate_in_milk - Cached.

Perchlorate found in breast milk
... chemical in rocket fuel, is contaminating breast and cow's milk across the United States at ... however, that women are probably getting most of their ... officials have ...
www.cnsfoundation.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=... - Cached

[ImNotTed]

59. The planet will be just fine

When the time comes, it'll do a biological Gramm-Rudman on homo sapiens.

[slay]

64. If not the planet itself - then surely the species that live on it

many species have gone extinct thanks to man - and many more will too - we'll probably even kill ourselves off in the not too distant future - but hopefully the planet itself will survive, and eventually recover from the attack of the humans. :(

[defendandprotect]

77. Again -- the damage is so extreme -- that the question of the very

survival of the planet has been raised --

in fact, it was raised by Ted Turner/CNN at a National Press Club luncheon --

It's an open question --

[TransitJohn]

66. Unrec for scientific illiteracy and fearmongering.

Yes, I wish the public cared about the effects of burning hydrocarbons for energy, and no, earthquakes are not one of those effects.

[defendandprotect]

80. Sadly, earthquakes are part of Global Warming -- and melting of the glaciers ....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4837036&mesg_id=4837639


http://www.livescience.com/7366-global-warming-spur-earthquakes-volcanoes.html



The notorious "Ring of Fire" is the area around the Pacific Basin which produces some of the largest earthquakes (about 80%) and tsunamis on the planet. Earthquakes are produced when the earth's tectonic plates shift against or collide with each other. Scientists have mapped these fault lines all over the world, and many might be surprised where they are located. An interesting but little known fact is that this stress builds and is usually unnoticeable, until it suddenly erupts into tremendous destruction. Major cities, nuclear reactors, and some of the heaviest population centers on the planet lie atop some of the largest faults.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2775162/recent_earthquakes_may_herald_more.html



The accelerating thaw and the earthquakes are intimately connected, according to Mr Kallio, as immense slabs of ice are sheared from the bed rock by melt water. Those blocks of ice, often more than 800m deep and 1500m long, contain immense rocks as well and move against geological faults with seismic consequences. The study of these ice quakes is still in its infancy, according to Professor Correll, but their occurence is in itself disturbing. "It is becoming a lot more volatile," said Mr Vallio. Predictions made by the Arctic Council, a working group of regional scientists, have been hopelessly overrun by the extent of the thaw. "Five years ago we made models predicting how much ice would melt and when," said Mr Vallio. "Five years later we are already at the levels predicted for 2040, in a year's time we'll be at 2050."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4837036&mesg_id=4838408



Additionally Pentagon issued a Warning to W. Bush re Global Warming --

which originally included "earthquakes" -- that reference later scrubbed.

I'd also suggest that volcanic activity should have been included in that warning.

You might also recall that during the Bush administration we saw numerous instances of lying

and falsifying of public documents -- such as a report on Global Warming and an EPA report

on air quality in NYC after 9/11 -- among many other lies.

[TransitJohn]

109. My geology degrees are evidently worthless, then.

Thanks.

[defendandprotect]

118. Could be -- ? Check in with Live Science . . .

Meanwhile, if you haven't read Gore's article in Rolling Stone --

Page 2 pretty much states the case for what he is calling "Climate Crisis" --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1354117


Here's some other info from other discussions on this subject --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4837036&mesg_id=4837639

http://www.livescience.com/7366-global-warming-spur-earthquakes-volcanoes.html

[B-Stupid]

67. Given the current state of the economy

good luck with that. I agree with you 100%, but all this is going on the back burner for a while. The last thing this administration is going to do during an election cycle is put any more environmental mandates on industry.

[defendandprotect]

85. Notice that as severe as this economy is -- a depression imo -- it's not getting Americans ....

up off their couches and out into the streets -- in any united way --

we have Wisconin and a few other things going on -- but America has not

yet risen up all together --

Even seniors aren't united against attacks on Social Security and Medicare!


However, should there be an awakening -- a full understanding of what capitalism

has done to nature and the planet and our ability to survive upon it, then I

think there will be immediate reaction.


One of my reasons for trying to get the information is not only to awaken those

here, but because Global Warming is already causing serious damage to vegetation --

and there is no life without it --


It would be very easy for a Goebbels's style propaganda campaign to convince the

public that food is simply unaffordable and therefore unavailable to them --

One of the last things elites will want the public to understand is Global Warming

and their role in creating it -- and lying about it for 50 years and more while

the planet burned up.


We've seen this in the propaganda surrounding genetically engineered food -- the

argument being that we need to increase production of food because so many go

hungry -- that's a lie. The truth is that so many go hungry because they can't

afford food.

[slackmaster]

74. This will all seem sadly ironic when the next Ice Age arrives

[hobbit709]

81. Planet is in no danger

We as a dominant species may be. Other species may be, but the planet has survived far worse in the last 4.5 billion years.

[defendandprotect]

87. Actually ....

I didn't know that we had hundreds of nuclear reactors in the last 4.5 billion years

and atomic weapons all over the map that long ago --

I had the strange idea that our oceans were clean -- as was our drinking water!

And that our forests were intact -- not thin ribbons of trees along our highways!


Silly me!

[hobbit709]

90. St Helens was a wet firecracker on the scale of volcanic explosions

It vaporized about a 1/4 cubic mile of rock with the equivalent of a 250 megaton blast. Largest nuke detonated was about 50 megatons. How long you think all that concrete and steel will last without constant maintenance. If humans disappeared all evidence of our existence would disappear within a few hundred years.

The biggest ecological catastrophe in the history of the planet was when it changed from methane to oxygen, killing off just about all previous lifeforms that breathed methane because their waste product, oxygen, is pure poison to them.

On a planetary scale, we are diddly squat. We just may be the first species since the methane breathers to do it to ourselves.

We are not important to the planet and the universe at all.

[defendandprotect]

93. Well, never knew anyone before who could speak for the planet -- and the universe ... !!

So you're saying that the atomic era and exploding nuclear weapons in our oceans --

in our skies -- nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki -- underground testing and in testing on

the Bikini islands is just as natural as the ash from a volcano?

Not to mention the bright idea of exploding nuclear weapons in outer space!

Didn't know volcanos could reach that far!

By the way we have 106 nuclear reactors in the US alone -- most of them old and

poorly maintained and leaking. And the waste that goes along with them.

It takes 6 months to properly shut down our nuclear reactors.

One year, to shut down the FUKU GE-designed nuclear reactors!


And who knows how many atomic weapons stored everywhere -- we actually store some

of our nuclear weapons in Israel!


But I am pleased to hear that if our planet implodes, the universe won't be effected --

or even care!


:evilgrin:

[hobbit709]

106. You seem to be claiming to speak for the planet as Chicken Little.

[stuntcat]

96. .

.

[sabrina 1]

82. 'We need a complete culture change'

Yes, but before that can happen, something must be done about the corporate media. Everything is under the control of Corporations, including our SC. They were planning while we were obvilious.

Great OP

:kick:

[defendandprotect]

86. That's the great truth of it all -- and the "warning" was met with complete silence by MSM ... !!

[NeedleCast]

88. This Thread Has An Alarming Lack of Scientific Fact. Amusing, But Mostly Alarming

Global warming mixed with woo.

When you mix fact with woo, it all becomes woo.

[defendandprotect]

94. If you have FACTS, let's hear them --

[hobbit709]

108. YOU're making the claims, you back them up.

The sky is falling is your claim.

[defendandprotect]

111. Have you read anything of Gore's article on GW in Rolling Stone... ?

Here's a link to Page 2 --

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/climate-of-denial-20110622?page=2

[hobbit709]

113. Global Warming yes

But then you threw in the woo and i quote
"We have increasing numbers of earthquakes and increasing severity of earthquakes --

which also generate volcanic activity --

and no one can say how this will all compound --


Again -- the dams and reservoirs our Army Corps of Engineers built are "impacting the

rotation of the earth" --

Nor do we have any real idea what damage the atomic era has done to our planet and

its systems -- Hiroshima, Nagasaki -- and atomic bombs exploded on land -- Bikini Islands --

in the oceans -- and underground! We were even nice enough to let the British test their

weapons at our facilities!!

Even more insanely, we exploded nuclear weapons in space -- !!"

As for the last line do you even have a glimmer as to how much radiation is beyond our atmosphere?

But I'm wasting my time arguing with woo.

[defendandprotect]

120. True ...

the number and severity of earthquakes are increasing --

Fuku a 9 -- the reactors were only built to withstand 7.0 -- and that's why

the Mayor and the town and the scientists wanted to shut down Fuku reactors

more than 5 years ago --

Evidently, Bush and nuke industry put a stop to that -- sadly.

Scientists were worried because of the INCREASING seismic activity re an

island which is earthquake-prone --

There were more than 350 aftershocks following the last earthquake, many of them

still at very high numbers, including 8.


And evidently you doubt that earthquakes generate new volcanic activity?

Hit google -

"and no one can say how this will all compound --"

That is a QUOTE from the scientists -- and I'm sure you read the 1992 World Scientists

Warning to Humanity? It is something they frequently point out.


Evidently you never caught up with one of the articles on the dams -- "impacting"

the rotation of the earth -- google -- NY Times.


And further, you seem to think that dropping atomic bombs here and there was good for

the planet?

And seemingly you don't know that indeed in the 1960's we exploded nuclear weapons in

outer space -- and possibly with a view to knocking out the Van Allen Belts which are

in our way! google -


If you know the amount of radiation beyond our atmosphere, you must know that man is

basically earthbound?


:rofl:

[NYC Liberal]

119. "NASA to bomb the Moon" n/t

[defendandprotect]

121. Probably some will think that's an ONION piece ... LINK here ...

NASA's mission to bomb the Moon
NASA will tomorrow launch a spectacular mission to bomb the Moon. Their LCROSS mission will blast off from Cape Canaveral, Florida, carrying a missile that will blast ...
www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=nasas-mission... - Cached

More here --
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=nasas-mission-to-bomb-the-moon-2009-06

[NYC Liberal]

123. And more here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x6712126

One of DU's finest threads.

[defendandprotect]

126. Interesting -- thank you ... two posts there I really liked ....

winyanstaz (1000+ posts) Wed Oct-07-09 01:44 AM

96. I am going to stick my neck out here...but I don't care if I get flamed.....

I am Native American and I also am a Pagan. There are many earth-based religions on this planet and we all see the Moon as a representative of our Mother/female aspect of the Goddess. To us, bombing the moon or shooting rockets at it or even going up there stepping on it would be the same if one of us went and shit in the vatican on the alter.
You can bet the Christians would understand that insult but no one seems to understand this insult.
You might not like it or understand it but thats the way it is. There is no reason to be messing with the moon..especially when we have absolutely NO idea of what could be the possible consequences of those actions.

Maybe it would only take one tiny little nudge from the wrong direction to push the moon off course. Maybe the Goddess will be angry..we can see the Earth mother is getting angrier every day already.
Even if you don't believe in the Goddess and only in a male God..don't you think the Creator might get pissed at the mess we are making of his creations?
Even if you don't believe in a God at all..are not somethings beautiful and wonderful enough without mankind tearing them up?
Not everything is worth raping for a dollar. Somethings should not be messed with


That's the old native American concept -- what value is a dollar bill -- ?

Can you plant it? Can you eat it? If you stare at it will it show you a sunset?


and Kentuck's --

I have thought much about this subject you mention.
"Science is catching up to the psychics and even now admits that beyond matter is energy and beyond energy is thought. The next leap will be when they discover beyond energy is pure spirit."

I tend to believe that the Spirit moved across the water...

Energy creates thoughts. Thoughts create Actions. Actions create Reactions. But what creates Energy? Or is Energy nothing but a Spirit?



Everything begins on a spirtual plane -- :)

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lorien]

92. K&R

It's the Big Issue that trumps all other (and effects all others profoundly) yet almost no one talks about it.

[stuntcat]

95. thank you

"We have known about Global Warming for more than 50 years -- in fact, scientists saw more than 100 years ago the negative effects of the industrial revolution on nature."

For decades I've watched my fellow citizens not caring. And right now I can't escape it, I have the examples all over me.. my in-laws, my neighbors, the people I work with. Even if they've been bullied into pretending to care they will not change much more than their lightbulbs.

For the rest of my life I will watch the most beautiful, innocent, interesting parts of the Earth die. My heart is broken further every day. I'm just glad I'm 40.

[Pisces]

97. People won't be moved until the ground opens up under them. We need to see apocalypse shit

before it gets our attention. Americans can not be bothered with somthing that will happen 10, 20 yrs from now. They live in the here and now, paycheck to paycheck.

[defendandprotect]

98. Imagine just what HEMP oil alone used for cars would do for us ....

Thom Hartmann was talking about that the other day --

evidently it's like Ethanol --

but just growing HEMP helps the ozone layer -- nature --

We have really had nature stolen from us in every way!

Not to mention pot -- !!

:evilgrin:

[Romulox]

99. As long as a billion people are added every 10 years, our acts of "conserving" are futile.

NOTHING is more damaging to the planet than having a child. NOTHING.

[defendandprotect]

112. No ... nothing is more damaging to the planet than ....

Patriarchy -- "The bird with one wing" --


Nature is pro-choice -- plants are our medicines/our drugs and our birth control --

Free will and choice -- and nature -- were taken from the people long ago --

and that effort continues on today --

That's part of what the witch burnings were about -- women's wisdom -- wicca --

However, patriarchy did destroy plants which provided birth control, ways to permanently

end fertility if one wished -- and ways to interrupt conception -- etal.

The plants and the information about them were destroyed as a threat to patriarchy --

and man's desire to have control over reproduction one way or another.

And women --

Patriarchy's war on nature and women is ongoing --





We can hardly suggest that every sexual act is an effort to breed --








Patriarchy -- and its underpinning =

Organized Patriarchal Religion -- and its economic invention =

Capitalism =

The Unholy Trinit

[WinkyDink]

101. Lost cause.

[defendandprotect]

135. Even if that were true ... there is still much to fight for ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1355982

[caraher]

103. The severe ignorance of basic science in this thread is frightening

Yes, we're having a big impact on the planet as we know it, but many of the scare claims in this thread are inconsistent with, for instance, basic orbital mechanics.

[TransitJohn]

110. Tell me about it.

:hi:

[defendandprotect]

122. Have you read Gore's Rolling Stone article ...

Recommend Page 2 --


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1354151

[defendandprotect]

125. I'd recommend you read Gore ...

Page 2 --

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1345690&mesg_id=1354151


and do some googling --

Also try "The Heat Is On!" by Ross Gelbspan -- available in most libraries.

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. Save the earth's rotation!

On the count of three let's all run east as fast as we can. Earth is a spherical treadmill. Yay!

[saras]

127. The planet is undergoing a mass species extinction event - it's not just humans

It doesn't really matter how much of it you attribute to global warming, how much to pollution, how much to development, how much to various other causes. It's happening, and humans are the main cause of it.

So in a sense it IS already too late. Even if we magically got our shit together, and within thirty days had put everyone on the planet to work shifting the entire world's societies to sustainable industry and production, we have already initiated an event that will result in the extinction of a substantial number of the world's species.

So the world will recover, and life will recover, but life as we know it may not recover. Mammals may not be on top next time, let alone primates.

[defendandprotect]

133. Well, I would always try to fight to preserve nature ... HOWEVER ...

what you are basically saying is that those who put these horrendous systems in

place and who are still in control of the nation shouldn't be stopped --


Should we really continue to permit the exploitation of nature by capitalism to continue?

Should we continue to pound down natural resources and to burn fossil fuels?


Should we permit Obama to allow more oil drilling in the Gulf or Alaska?

Or anywhere?

Should we permit Obama to push for a new generation of nuclear reactors in US?

Should we fail to try to preserve species of animal-life?

Should we try to protect our children from leaks from nuclear reactors and pollution

which causes asthma?

Should we continue on with the gasline drive auto -- or push to convert all cars now?

Should we try to STOP the acid rain which falls down upon Canada's forests destroying them?

Should we continue to subsidize the oil and coal industries?

Should we create yet more nuclear waste - ???


You see, even if you've decided that it's "too late" you still have to recognize the suffering

ahead for animal-life and humans -- and try to prevent more of it, imo. :(



So the world will recover, and life will recover, but life as we know it may not recover. Mammals may not be on top next time, let alone primates.


Again, we don't know if the planet will survive the upheaval --

No one can say that -- but the question was raised long ago by Ted Turner/CNN --

We certainly don't know if the earth will keep turning.


And what if there is such a thing as reincarnation -- what kind of an earth would we be

willing to come back to -- ?


Don't know if you read the Al Gore/Rolling Stone article -- up now in one or another of the

threads -- but he is calling it a "Climate Crisis" -- and he also noted that ...

"20% of the Global Warming pollution we spew into the sky will still be there

20,000 years from now" -- !!


If you do care even about animal life making a comeback on the planet, the time to stop

capitalism's suicidal exploittion of nature if now --



:)

[The Wizard]

129. "We could have saved the Earth,

but we were too damn cheap."
(Kurt Vonnegut)

[defendandprotect]

131. Never came upon that quote before ...

Thank you -- !! Wow !!

[caseymoz]

136. I hate to rain gloom on this, but it's impossible to do without oil.

To meet our country's energy needs with solar, we would have to cover the entire state of Arizona with solar panels. If the whole world were to try that, we would be competing with plants to solve our energy needs. Similar with wind.

The earth has been converting solar energy into fossil fuels for eons, and we've fueled our population explosion because we unleashed that stored energy. We probably use up a century or millennium worth of solar energy stored in the earth every day to power our global system. You are not going to make up for the lack of that with solar energy shining down daily. The available energy from the sunlight falling on us is far less than we need with our current population.

Other problems: converting every car to battery doesn't give us a new energy source. A battery won't matter if its energy supply comes from fossil fuels. It's just a way to store energy. By itself, it's just as polluting (because of toxic chemicals in the battery). You always have energy losses from batteries, so they are, by themselves, less efficient than running your car directly with fossil fuels. Though they give you flexibility on how to supply the energy.

You're not going to run a car on solar- - actually, that's not quite accurate. You're not going to run a car on 20-40 miles of driving a day with solar. Instead of the current 12,000 miles a year average, think a thousand. That's 20 miles a week. Get used to that whether we go solar or not.

This "culture" can't change except the way Rome changed, or perhaps the way Spain in the 17th century changed. That is, it ceases to be geo-politically or Nation-states grow to exploit resources within their borders in competition with other nation-states. The government of the a nation supports itself on a system that does this. It's always by it's nature reactionary. If the natural resources are used up, or are used incorrectly, then the nation isn't viable anymore, the government Whether you "believe in" the nation won't matter.

I would do as you say, but I would expect radical suffering and strife. Our food supply is tied intimately to our energy supply.

But I would expect those anyway because nature is going to force our hand very soon.

[BillsCatz]

137. The Industrial Revolution -- the reality.

Great inspiring rant, I must say. Once again, unfortunately, you appear to have missed a vital point, as have all the current Green-heads. More than half the U.S. population lives within 10 miles of one of the 1,304 Superfund sites listed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as the nation's worst toxic waste dumps. Yes, the sky is falling and, no, all the little battery-powered cars in the world won't prevent that. Or the newest light bulbs. Or switching to natural gas. Or eating granola. All that may help in the future, but it won't stop the shit-storm that's already underway.

Long before 1960 fossil fuel and it's consequences the country was being duped, bullshitted and poisoned. The great Industrial Revolution that swept America also allowed those same industries to dump toxins in the air, water and soil. A wink and a nod from the politicians, an indifferent shrug from working folks who really needed those jobs and dared not question, and big money for the labor barons. More than half the U.S. population lives within 10 miles of one of the 1,304 Superfund sites listed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as the nation's worst toxic waste dumps.

Oh labor barons? Those guys from the 1800's who paid pennies and endangered workers? The same swine are still around and now hidden behind multiple corporations. DuPont. Remington. Boeing. General Electric. Massey Energy. Cargill. Monsanto. In fact, some of these are today on the top ten list of worst corporate polluters in the US. TODAY, as in currently, in 2011 and not 65 years ago! Pay-off the hanks and kill the environment, business as usual. More than half the U.S. population lives within 10 miles of one of the 1,304 Superfund sites listed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as the nation's worst toxic waste dumps.

Lets not forget 1600 above and below ground NUCLEAR tests in Nevada and Utah from 1946 to 1962. Duck and cover, kiddies! That stuff won't hurt you, we said so!

Did I mention that more than half the U.S. population lives within 10 miles of one of the 1,304 Superfund sites listed by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency as the nation's worst toxic waste dumps? Yeah, that's my point. There are about 40,000 Superfund sites in total, those are the worst of the worst -- places that have been declared unsafe for human habitation.

The rest, eh, well there are fences and signs to warn folks away while all those toxins continue to seep into the water table. Nobody lives there anymore, no problem. Remember when the there was too much mercury in the swordfish? I do. No sweat, The Government just raised the acceptable level people could eat, problem solved. Cancer and leukemia rates continue to climb, new deadly illnesses appear with no known cause or cure, birth defects and Alzheimer's and flesh eating bacteria.

But take heart because Big Pharma has a pill for everything, even if they have to create the malady to fit the cure. In twelve years of public school -- 1960 to 1972 -- I never met anybody with ADD or ABCD or EIEIO, only one girl was allergic to strawberries and almost every kid I knew in the first grade graduated from a high school. Mercury, lead, plutonium, DDT, PBCs...

The government and it's agencies that were and are supposed to clean-up the past and create a better future are daily selling us down the river. The major corporations that did all the damage were allowed to file bankruptcy and walk away. When the EPA implemented saner rules, the the same industries moved all the jobs out of the country. In case nobody noticed, American labor has been used up and tossed away like an old condom.

And all this while we sat there laughing at sitcoms, taking our medications, drinking our drinks and believing the party line. Do not questions authority! Work! Sleep! Consume! Obey! The cure? Be glad we're alive today, celebrate this fragile gift we call life and be as kind to the environment as possible. But it's not going to stop the legacy of the past from biting us on the ass.