Greece On The Brink Of Revolutionary Situation.

[white_wolf]

I thought I'd post this from Marxist.com about the situation in Greece, feel free to give me your thoughts on it. http://www.marxist.com/greece-on-the-brink-of-revolutionary-situation.htm

[unkachuck]

1. it might....

....have been an Arab-Spring, but it's looking like a Greek-Summer....power to the people!

....and you know, people power is such a beautiful thing....

[Harmony Blue]

2. I have to concede that

no one anticipated events unfolding in such a manner. But one could argue it was inevitable with the absurd demands from the "Troika". One round of austerity cuts, and then another? More than likely a third would be around the corner, and this lunacy would continue.

[socialist_n_TN]

3. Yep. Now THAT is a program

It sounds like that trade union program in that other post. Good find, wolf.

[white_wolf]

4. It is a good progarm.

I'm rather annoyed at the reactions of the so called Communist Party in Greece. They should be acting as the Vanguard right now, not campaigning for votes.

[socialist_n_TN]

5. Yeah exactly. They've become a left bourgeoisie

political party. I don't think that they even WANT to take power like a good revolutionary Marxist party should. The want to be "elected". The Greek situation won't be solved within the constraints involved in an electoral remedy. They'll wind up a slave to the IMF-ECB just like the Socialist Party is.

As I said in the other thread, something's amiss when a trade union organization is more revolutionary than a supposed "Marxist" vanguard party. That would be like the AFL-CIO advocating a more revolutionary agenda than CPUSA.

Somebody in that trade union HAS been studying some Trotsky.

[DonCoquixote]

19. is election

a bad thing?

[white_wolf]

23. Not necessary so.

However, for a revolutionary Marxist party to be focused on elections at this point when they should instead be focused on organizing and united the various factions of the working class is a bad thing. The ultimate goal of any Marxist party should be to act as a Vanguard and help prepare the working class to overthrow capitalism. The communist party of Greece however is not doing that and is instead focusing on working within the bourgeois system which the Greek people may very well reject.

[joshcryer]

24. Remember what I said about Trotsky placing the party (Vanguard) above democracy?

You and I got into a spat about it before. You seem to repeating the same meme.

Well, it didn't work.

I'd tell the Marxists to stay out of it, myself, personally. Let the Greeks figure it out and in particular embrace democracy and toss out the vanguard. Decentralized democratic councils are the only immediate solution.

Unfortunately it won't wind up that way and I feel bad for you being so optimistic about the Greek situation. This has been ongoing for almost a decade now...

[white_wolf]

25. First of all Trotsky's method has never been tried.

Secondly when he said that he was being brought before the party for being disloyal. However, let's say that in his early days he was loyal to the party without question. Later on he seems to have a change of heart and warns against too much centralized power when he says:"In inner-party politics, these methods lead, as we shall yet see, to this: the party organization substitutes itself for the party, the central committee substitutes itself for the organization, and, finally, a ''dictator'' substitutes himself for the central committee."

[joshcryer]

27. Lenin and Stalin did put the party above democracy, though.

And I think that the protesters would be mistaken to do that in this instance. They have no vanguard but themselves. They don't need a "leadership" but themselves.

[socialist_n_TN]

30. "They don't need a 'leadership' but themselves"

With an anarchistic "leadership", you have what you've had for 5 years now. Upheaval without any changes. No matter WHAT government has been in place through the upheaval, Greece is STILL in mortal danger of being tied to IMF/ECB slavery for the next generation or more. Even if the KKE won an election, the results would still be the same. With electoral remedies, EVERY bourgeoisie party is going to be saddled with the IMF/ECB "solutions".

I have some problems with a vanguard party myself (see Trotsky circa 1907 or so), but I don't see any other way around the impasse. Without a vanguard party to, AT LEAST, put out a guide to revolution and the remaking of society IOW a REAL programme for change, any revolutionary situation INEVITABLY loses impetus. Futher, EVEN IF an "anarchistic" revolution becomes possible (which is NOT a given considering it's NEVER HAPPENED), it's WAY too decentralized to DEFEND the revolution from the inevitable capitalist counterattack. Ergo, a vanguard party is necessary.

Now if done correctly, the NEED for a vanguard should become less and less through a few decades as socialism becomes more and more established. Even Lenin (and Trotsky agreed) had plans for anarchist "enclaves" at some point in the future when the danger of counterrevolution had passed. Of course, Lenin died and Trotsky was ousted by Stalin and that was that. For a LOT of the ACTUAL Bolshevik programme.

But until the revolution has been accomplished, socialism established, and the capitalists are under TOTAL control, there's a need for a vanguard.

[socialist_n_TN]

32. That depends. What kind of choices do you have

in bourgeoisie elections? Corporate candidate A or Corporate candidate B? No matter who wins you still elect a Corporate candidate.

In Greece, no matter WHICH bourgeoisie party you elect, from the RW party to the KKE (Communists) you're still electing a party that is a slave to the IMF/ECB "solutions" to the debt situation.

Is it any wonder that the actual PEOPLE are looking for another way? This ENTIRE worldwide crisis was CAUSED by finance capital. The bankers were bailed out by TAXPAYERS of these various countries, so they haven't lost ANYTHING. In fact, the bankers ARE RICHER THAN EVER! THEY MADE MONEY BEFORE, DURING, AND AFTER THE CRISIS. Did the PEOPLE of Greece (or the United States for that matter) become obscenely rich through the buildup to this economic collapse? The answer is no. Yet now the PEOPLE are being asked to PAY FOR THE CRISIS CAUSED BY THE FINANCE CAPITALISTS. AFTER bailing them out of their immediate problems in '08. Yeah that's fair. :sarcasm:

And every bourgeoisie party "elected" in Greece has played along with these rapacious exploiters. THAT'S why the people or looking at extra electoral remedies. So the people are calling bullshit on the whole SYSTEM. It's about time.

[dkf]

6. I am curious to see if revolution really does improve people's lives...

Especially when they had a pretty nice standard of living even with the austerity cuts.

Is it worth it to give up what you have in exchange for who knows what?

[white_wolf]

7. Clearly the people don't have a pretty nice standard of living or

they wouldn't be even considering this option. As Jefferson said "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security." The people of Greece are being threatened with absolute financial despotism to a bunch of thieving bankers. Clearly if they are on the edge of revolting then the evils have no longer become sufferable.

[dkf]

11. 22nd highest standard of living in the world in 2005...above France and Germany.

The economy of Greece is the 27th largest in the world by nominal gross domestic product (GDP) and the 34th largest at purchasing power parity (PPP), according to data by the World Bank for the year 2009.<1><2> Per capita, it is ranked 24th by nominal GDP and 23rd at PPP according to the 2009 data.

A developed country with the 22nd highest human development and quality of life indices in the world,<17> Greece is a member of the European Union, the eurozone, the OECD, the World Trade Organization and the Black Sea Economic Cooperation Organization.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-of-life_index

[white_wolf]

12. Do you live in Greece?

Clearly the people feel that they shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes of a bunch of criminals with their children's future and I agree. The bankers should be thrown in jail and their assets seized.

[dkf]

15. Which bunch of criminals?

It looks like Government corruption was more of a factor than the bankers. Are you all sure it is the bankers fault or are you guessing?

[white_wolf]

16. Goldman-Sachs alone pretty much took down Greece's economy.

[dkf]

20. As far as I know they were just helping to disguise the amount of debt.

Is that what you are referring to?

[tsuki]

18. They were co-conspirators. The banksta gangstas showed the

government how to cover up their real debt when they applied for admission.

[socialist_n_TN]

9. I think that's the problem. They see that standard of living

being taken away by the bankers and finance capitalists. And they're standing up to them.

[girl gone mad]

8. Have you seen Madrid from today?

The global insurrection won't be stopped.

[socialist_n_TN]

10. Nope. I've missed Madrid. I've been paying so much

attention to the Greek situation that I haven't heard. Fill me in girl.

[girl gone mad]

13. Here is some video footage..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x593553

[socialist_n_TN]

14. Thanks girl. It's happening all over

but apparently Greece is closer.

[roamer65]

17. Hang on to your hats...here comes an old fashioned currency crisis.

This is going to get interesting very quickly.

[joshcryer]

21. I find it touching that the rioters have been finally noticed by the Marxists after they've been...

...doing this almost constantly since 2007...

[socialist_n_TN]

29. First of all, that's not accurate. The KKE

(as bourgeoisie as they are) have played a LEADING role, and maybe THE leading role, in ALL the demonstrations since the beginning.

Secondly, it's apparent that the trade union organization that recently upped the ante by calling for, basically, creating a "dual" government, the trade union took a page out of a Marxist/Trotskyist programme and NOT Trotskyists taking over the trade union. As far as I know, the Trotskyist groups in Greece are like Trotskyist groups worldwide, not very influential as far as raw NUMBERS go. But apparently the Trotskyist PROGRAMME struck a chord WITH that trade union.

IOW, in this case it seems that the trade union took the lead by ADOPTING a Marxist programme, NOT Marxists trying to take over a trade union.

[PoliticAverse]

22. There are different types of 'revolution'...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974

[Mudoria]

26. When it's all said and done

however it turns out they'll still be broke.

[white_wolf]

28. However at least if they do default

they won't be slaves to international bankers. They can rebuild their system.

[Taverner]

31. Let's hope it stays a "People's Uprising"