Greek anti-austerity protesters surround parliament

[marmar]

ATHENS (AFP) – Thousands of Greek protesters surrounded the parliament building in Athens on Wednesday as a general strike paralysed the country and the prime minister held emergency talks on a controversial reform package.

Riot police and barricades blocked approaches to parliament as 20,000 people gathered in the capital, summoned by a popular protest group that has occupied central Syntagma Square for weeks after a similar mobilisation in Spain.

Lawmakers inside the building are debating a new austerity package worth over 28 billion euros ($40 billion), a condition demanded by Greece's creditors in return for a badly-needed new aid bailout.

Prime Minister George Papandreou began an emergency meeting with the Greek head of state, President Carolos Papoulias, after a government deputy defected on Tuesday, reducing the government's majority to five seats. ..............(more)

The complete piece is at: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110615/ts_afp/greeceeconomystrike_20110615113842

[socialist_n_TN]

1. I cannot for the life of me figure out what is the best for

the working class in this whole Eurozone debt crisis.

I don't like banks and feel they should be nationalized without compensation (at least the large shareholders), which means I'm inclined to tell them to fuck off when it comes to the paper they hold. OTOH, will a crash be worse for the aerage worker?

[girl gone mad]

7. You need to understand that no one making the decisions in government..

is even considering the needs or interests of the working class.

Geithner is one of the forces pushing for a full bailout (no haircuts whatsoever). American and European banks have hundreds of billions on the line in CDS and that is largely what is driving some of these particularly idiotic decisions.

[inna]

9. What's there to figure out? Default. Go the Argentina way.

Say "f*ck you" to the IMF and WB and neoliberalism in general; reject reactionary, anti-workers, right-wing policies. Fire their reactionary government, possibly exit the Euro/Eurozone and/or form new alliances. The only bad option is to stick with austerity bullshit.

See, for example, http://www.cepr.net/index.php/op-eds-&-columns/op-eds-&-columns/a-response-to-krugman-on-greece-and-the-euro

[joshcryer]

11. +1

And burn down the parliament.

[socialist_n_TN]

15. Yeah I thought about it a little more

(see post #4). Renunciation of the debt by a worker's government, along with the nationalization of all industries under worker's control and expropriation of all assets of the wealthy. Then organization of a worker's militia to defend it.

And that's for ALL of the countries in trouble. Then they could join together and help each other defend themselves.

I think I was still thinking in terms of getting out of the debt trap without revolution. And it ain't gonna happen.

[joshcryer]

16. I don't think the Greek youth are up for it though, unfortunately. I hope I am wrong.

They can do it in a matter of days. This is the largest longest going protest in a very long time, usually they get squashed down but this time they're for real I think. Before they went after the banks, now they're going after the government (who are the ones responsible for the banks' authoritarian policies). It's a nice move to see, unfortunately I think that the PM's claims for "making a new government" are going to subdue the rioters. Again, a "friendly capitalism" being shoved down their throat.

"Hey, you complain, we listen, OK?"

It's actually unfortunate that true revolutions happen only when governments refuse to "pretend to listen" and start attacking the people who want that change.

[socialist_n_TN]

20. Well that is what the capitalists do.........

when they get scared. They make a pretense of "change" so they can damp down the immediate crisis. Anything to keep their hold a little longer.

It MAY be that the Greeks have been fooled enough times that they won't be fooled again. We'll just have to see. I think there are a few Trots there. Maybe they can show the way. :)

[joshcryer]

24. The anarchist movement there is alive and well. Unfortunately the Communists denounced them in 2008.

Let's hope they can get along this time around and hopefully the Communist Party of Greece will not see the "hoodlums" as pissants, but actual people who want actual change and who want to reform if not revolutionize their government.

[socialist_n_TN]

32. Yeah the KKE has taken a more leftist turn

in the last few years, but I'm not sure they even WANT to take power anymore. I honestly think that they'd rather be elected into power. And that of course, would lock them into the bourgeoisie system, albeit as the far left of same. Even now, they're not calling for a worker's government, just a return to nationalism.

United front time as far as I'm concerned. An enemy of the capitalists and their system is my friend.

[joshcryer]

38. KKE is afraid of the street hoodlums because they represent an anti-authoritarian policy.

They won't ever support them because if they did it would mean the end of the KKE, since they are as corrupt as the rest of the parties.

[Fool Count]

33. Precisely. It's been done before and every time it

resulted in an extended period of spectacular economic growth fueled by steady stream of new investments. It may seem counter-intuitive
that default would increase credibility and trustworthiness, but who would you rather lend money - a bankrupt who can't even pay interest
on his huge debts or someone who is debt-free? Screw the banks and foreign creditors, they already got plenty of dough out of this scheme.
The first bailout was already a huge mistake, so reverse it and screw the european central banks too. Haircuts all around.

[sabrina 1]

19. They should all do what Iceland did. Do not bail out the corrupt

banks, arrest the crooked bankers, as they have done in Iceland, and start looking for the money they have hidden in offshore accounts etc. As they are doing in Iceland. Iceland is now the only European country whose economy is rebounding. Maybe everyone else should take a lesson from them. Real anger at the banks and politicians for what they did to Iceland's economy motivated them to do the logical thing. Do not reward the thieves, make them pay back what they took, and prosecute them.

[socialist_n_TN]

22. There would be the FIRST ally for a new Greek

revolutionary worker's government. There are enough Euro countries in trouble now that they COULD form a pretty solid bloc to help each other out.

[sabrina 1]

26. I think so, but first they have to get rid of the collaborators

in their governments as Iceland did. But I do agree, there is a chance for a workers revolution throughout Europe, if they can take advantage of the situation and not allow themselves to be scared by the usual suspects.

Iceland was hesitant at first, but a majority wanted to change course completely and they won in the end.

That country is a microcosm of all the others and proves, on a smaller scale of course, that there is another way.

[socialist_n_TN]

27. Well that's the first thing that a worker's revolution

SHOULD do is relieve the collaborators of any of their power. And their money. The next thing would be to staff and even expand the "general welfare" industries like food, transportation, and public utilities. Then form the worker's militia. Workers would know where the armories are along with any munitions factories. These gains would have to be defended, after all.

It actually does look like some of Europe is ready for a worker's revolution. I have a feeling that workers even in the countries that are NOT in trouble would support them if it comes down to it.

[joshcryer]

28. I don't think being afraid is an issue, it's being manipulated and being exhausted, imo.

If they buy any of the governments bullshit and they're exhausted from the protesting then they might give up too soon before real change is effected. It doesn't help that a lot of the leftist parties there are complicit, and they have their own asses to look out for. They're going to be doing a lot of manipulating that's for sure.

[sabrina 1]

34. Well, I was referring to those who want to go after the banks

and politicians who were responsible. When Iceland formed a new government, the first thing on their agenda was to go after the banks, NOT to bail them out, and to stop foreclosures, I think they made the banks cover those loans actually. But then some in the new government began to worry that they might have to do what other countries were being forced to do, or risk huge consequences. You can't blame them since no one had tried what they were planning to do.

I think even a new government might weaken out of fear, caused by 'manipulation'. But now that Iceland has demonstrated that it really wasn't as bad as predicted, maybe some of those fears might be allayed.

But yes, they are all being manipulated as we are here. I wish we had let the banks fail, taken them over and gone ofter the corrupt bankers and their collaborators in Congress. How much worse could it have been?

Levin's Committee has worked for two years to find out what caused the problems and he, together with Republicans on that committee have sent their findings to the DOJ because, they said, they have definitely found evidence of fraud and corruption that must be investigated and prosecuted. So far, nothing has happened.

[BOG PERSON]

2. It is simply not possible

that the policies being inflicted on Greece, Ireland and now Portugal will reduce the debt burden of those countries – the very opposite will happen, as was seen from Zambia in the 1980s to Argentina at the beginning of the last decade. Similar policies to those being inflicted on Europe saw Zambia’s debt-to-GDP ratio double in the 1980s as the economy shrank. Argentina defaulted on its massive debts in 2001, after a 3-year recession brought about by IMF policies. Like Ireland today Argentina was told it had partied too hard, even though the debt had been run up by a disastrous set of privatisations and a currency peg foisted on the country by the same IMF. Its economy started recovering within a month of the default.

So why are these policies still being pursued? Almost every commentator has known from day one that the ‘bailout’ packages would not make the debts of Greece or Ireland sustainable. But delegates at last weekend’s conference were clear – that isn’t the point. The point is to recover as much of investors’ money as possible, however liable those investors were for the crisis, and transfer liability to society.

Even if Greece and Ireland need additional bailout money or restructuring through some sort of bonds – the same measures imposed on Latin America in the 1980s which created mountains of debt so big that those countries are still suffering the fall-out – the private investors will have been paid out. The argument becomes one between German and Greek populations as to who will foot the biggest portion of the bill, creating a dangerous nationalism already very evident.

http://www.redpepper.org.uk/debt-audits-and-a-new-economic-vision/

[ljm2002]

3. Thanks for that brief but IMO excellent analysis...

...bottom line, the current rule is that private investors MUST be paid off at 100% while the masses (most of who had nothing whatsoever to do with the problem) MUST bear the burden. And this of course ensures that governments will cut back, and that unemployment will be rampant, thus allowing those same private interests to further exploit working people in every country.

Yes, nationalism is showing its ugly face as a result of the financial stresses. It is another manifestation of "divide and conquer", with us little people fighting among ourselves while the rich continue on their binge and take an ever larger share of the wealth.

I wish ALL the little people just decided one day that ALL of us would stop serving them -- i.e., their limo drivers wouldn't drive for them, their maids wouldn't clean for them, their nannies wouldn't care for their children, their pilots wouldn't fly them, their delivery boys wouldn't deliver to them -- if we really wanted to we could cut them off and show them who really holds the power. That is extremely unlikely to ever happen, of course... but I can't help indulging in the occasional pipe dream.

[socialist_n_TN]

4. I'm really beginning to believe that a real worker's

takeover is the only way to get these guys out of the deep shit they're in. Renunciation of all the debt, nationalization without compensation of all the banks and major industries, the workers take over the industries AND the governmental duties, including setting pension and unemployment compensation rates and payments. Formation of worker's councils and a worker's militia for the enforcement of worker's laws. In short, REAL socialism. Otherwise, the average Stephanos is going to be in even MORE trouble.

Even the KKE isn't talking about this. They're just going back to nationalism, dropping out of the European Union and reinstating the drachma. THAT would just lead to the rise of fascism. Don't try to out nationalize the nationalists.

It's a real mess and it's coming to us, sooner rather than later.

[joshcryer]

13. They've had their riots but they fail to take it to the logical conclusion. The Polytechnic needs...

...to get it's act together and do what it did before, but this time actually affect change: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athens_Polytechnic_uprising

Sadly I fear for our youth of today because they've been sufficiently propagandized by "friendly consumerism" or "feel good capitalism."

[Fool Count]

35. As Lenin said, revolutionary situation (clearly in existence

now in Greece) is not enough. It takes a revolutionary party, a vanguard, which could lead a disaffected populace into economic and political
overhaul of the system. That, sadly, is lacking in Greece or any other european country. KKE is clearly not up to it. It is just another bourgeoisie
party devoid of new ideas and narrowly focused on electoral politics. The truly revolutionary movement may still emerge. If not, it is just decades
of misery and deprivation the Greeks have to look forward to.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. I agree. There definitely needs to be a vanguard

that has not shown up in Greece yet. There are groups that actually have the programme, but they don't have the support. Yet.

[joshcryer]

37. The vanguard is the first step toward authoritarianism and it fails every time.

They need to remove all people of people from office, by force if necessary, and create a new society not based on such trivialities. It's easy to see when you're being fucked over, and the vanguard is just another wolfs in sheeps clothing, creating within itself a new bourgeoisie class that does not affect actual change.

[socialist_n_TN]

39. That won't work. This is the age old argument

and, at times, I've even had this argument with MYSELF. There has to be the vanguard party or everything just collapses. Anarchy can POSSIBLY make a revolution (although that's debatable), but anarchy can never KEEP a revolution.

Without the vanguard, what does the worker's government do when the capitalists counter attack? A vanguard will at least have a programme, including defense of the revolution from the INEVITABLE capitalist counterattack.

[TBF]

5. It will happen.

Not sure workers will be united in my lifetime, but then things have changed dramatically in the past two-three years.

The thing about the top 1% owning everything and "austerity" for everyone else is that there will be no more middle class anywhere. With no middle class to defend the upper crust it is simply us against them (with billions more of "us").

Then we have a chance at socialism - maybe even worldwide (or close to it).

[locahungaria]

29. Those same policies are being inflicted on America right now,

but most Americans are too stupid to realize it. Athens 2011, Washington, 2015?

[socialist_n_TN]

30. Sooner than that, IMO...........

I'm looking at those policies within the next couple of years. And that's no matter WHO is elected in '12.

[joshcryer]

31. Heh, the US hasn't had Athens-style activists in over a decade.

After Seattle '99 the decline was rapid, possibly due to the Green Scare, but more likely due to the consumerism of our lives through gadgetry (this is not an anti-technology observation, I think technology is enabling Athens and could enable it here, but we have to dump the iPods and iPhones and such).

So to answer your postulation, not in a million years. There is a plan to "occupy" DC against the war, but the "occupiers" will be quickly arrested and removed.

[girl gone mad]

6. k & r

[roamer65]

8. This is the second wave of the 2008 economic crisis.

Get ready for a full blown currency crisis as the euro unravels.

[inna]

10. K&R - Is It Time for the Greek Revolution Yet?

Could someone start a daily thread, complete with pictures and links and updates? }( :D

[Harmony Blue]

40. It would be an interesting task to do

But hard to find information that isn't slanted by the MSM.

[inna]

12. Pictures, Pictures!! Go Greeks! Looks like they're getting new government!

http://www.reuters.com/article/slideshow/idUSTRE75D6JK20110615#a=1

[joshcryer]

14. LOL, they won't get a "new government" until the PM and the bankers are in chains.

:rofl:

[socialist_n_TN]

17. VERY good point..........

The only new government they'll get is ANOTHER bourgeoisie government that will be STILL be shackled to "austerity". Tinkering around the edges.

The Greeks need a revolution. Of course, we all do, but they, along with Portugal, Ireland, Spain and a couple others, need it more than we do. Right now. But our time is coming.

[inna]

18. Not necessarily - but you could be right!

And hey, wanna start a new daily revolution thread?? :evilgrin:

[joshcryer]

21. Actually, if Greece goes that way I'm game. The "2008 Greek riots" really have been ongoing...

...and one might even argue helped spur other countries to rise up.

But I fear it will just be yet another round of Greek kids rioting and not forming organized committees to overthrow (or demolish or reform) the government.

[sabrina 1]

23. And that's what they did in Iceland, refused to bail them out

arrested them, took over the banks, kicked out the government, arrested the PM and started looking for the money that was stolen. They were warned that if they did this their country would fail. That has not happened, they are the only country in Europe whose economy is on the rebound.

[joshcryer]

25. Indeed.