Why are some people so anti-union? This isn’t anything new.

[raccoon]

Back in the ‘70’s my then brother-in-law, who worked at a textile plant, blue-collar job, was very anti-union. (I should add this was in SC, a so-called “right to work” state.) And nowadays, it appears there are many others like him.

I can see why the CEO’s, and the rest of the 5%, would be against unions. But the ordinary working stiffs—I don’t get it.

[Odin2005]

1. Corporate brainwashing.

[KittyWampus]

2. Corporate brainwashing with little counteraction from Unions themselves.

Advertising and marketing of that corporate message has grown more sophisticated and complete over the years.

Union outreach has been close to non-existant.

[el_bryanto]

4. And let's be blunt about this; often times when you encounter a union it's not a positive experience

Additional headaches and inefficiencies.

Bryant

[Bluenorthwest]

21. Do you have an actual experience to share?

Because without my Unions I'd be fucked, and would have been so for years on end. What is your story, or is it just 'often times'? Some say? You have heard?
What Union are you a member of?

[el_bryanto]

39. I'm not a member of a union; I had some experiences with them

when i worked at the university. Not being allowed to resolve simple computer matters because of union regulations; instead we had to wait days for the IT people to come out. But if you scroll down you will see some additional complaints.

I'm not a member of a union.

Bryant

[Dogtown]

22. GOP anti-union talking point.

Is that blunt enough for you?

[Bluenorthwest]

25. We have a couple of posters doing the 'I hear' tap dance.

The very best at that particular form of entertainment was Ronald Reagan. That man could tap dance a Morse Code of right wing rhetoric like no one's business!

[Dogtown]

34. Indeed.

Fire a shot & didi mau.
It's disruptive and that's why they never defend their RW nonsense, they know in a real discussion they'd get themselves dirtnapped.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fascisthunter]

3. Think Tanks and Corporate Media Brainwashing Americans

[Bragi]

5. Unionism is the antithesis of individualism

The good old "American Dream" is that everyone has the opportunity to work hard, succeed and become whatever they want.

It's bullshit, but this vision is sold constantly and mercilessly in schools, churches, media, everywhere in America.

This vision is hostile towards any form of collective action, which is the premise upon which unionism is founded.

This vision helps to sustain the disempowerment required to sustain a society built on serious and growing social and economic inequalities.

[EstimatedProphet]

6. Maybe because some unions control job availability

If someone who isn't a member of a union tries to get into a union shop, they have to join that union. Some people think that's coercion, and that the union is keeping them from getting a job.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

37. A simple majority can decertify.

Sounds democratic to me.

[EstimatedProphet]

53. Me too

But I'm pro-union...

[MicaelS]

7. Anger / envy / jealously toward fellow workers

There are lots of people out there who believe they work harder than anyone else, no matter the evidence. And anyone who works less than them is "a lazy bastard". Since the job of unions is protect worker's jobs, members can't be fired for being "a lazy bastard".

In their mindset people should constantly live in fear of being fired for being "a lazy bastard", since that is the only "proper" way to motivate workers.

How's that?

[HockeyMom]

17. That is EXACTLY my Republican husband's view of it

+1000

[LibDemAlways]

55. My husband is a Dem but had an anti-union bent for

just that very reason. He was a non-union employee in a company where certain workers were unionized. He would complain that the union people didn't work a hard as he did. However, when he was eventually laid off and realized he had no union protection, he changed his tune significantly. He came to understand the value of a union the hard way.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Because unionism means equality

And a lot of folks I know are not about to give up their white privilege. They would rather take a cut in pay themselves to avoid that.

Did your then brother-in-law ever exhibit any overt signs of racism in your presence? I am betting he did.

Don

[raccoon]

14. Yes. You must be psychic. nt

[Marrah_G]

19. Your first comment is your opinion, but your second is a nasty assumption ...

... based on your own prejudgements of others.

[NNN0LHI]

29. I have belonged to a union for 40 years

What is your past experience, if any, on this subject?

Don

[Marrah_G]

70. I am very pro-union; I was raised by teachers and my ex-husband is an active Teamster

I do not, however have any experience with the posters Brother-in-law and therefore would not make the assumption that he was either white or a racist. Instead he may just be ignorant and mislead.

[izquierdista]

9. Same reason they are against single payer

A penny saved not having to pay union dues or a medicare (for all) tax, is worth more to them than a higher wage or no-pay health care.

[Bryan Buchan]

10. I am pro Union

But I know from personal experience in construction in New York that union workers have consistently delayed projects and have been reported to project managers, etc. of slacking off on the job. A few times they had to hire a non-union company to come in an finish the job on time, and these companies put the union companies to shame in terms of work ethic, job performance, and punctuality. Every time I hear this it makes me sick to my stomach. Just like when I hear teachers getting paid to sit in a room and read a magazine and not work. Our unions need to be strong and efficient, dependable if they are to be able to compete and thrive.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Post some cites please.

This 'every time I hear' routine is thin as can be. Hear from who? Where do you hear this? You 'hear' about teachers and also about NYC Construction workers. Which Union in NYC do you speak of, exactly? For a personal experience, the details seem sparse. Links would help. Thanks.

[Bryan Buchan]

I would love too

but I don't want to loose my non-union job ;) But it is the truth...and it makes me sick to my stomach. I am pro-union and progressive as they come.

[Bluenorthwest]

28. You can not because you do not have any.

Why would you lose a Non Union job for criticizing a Union? That does not make sense at all. They are alright with you posting vague bullshit but if you stand up like an adult and back up your assertions with fact they would fire you? So they are cool with slander, but not with truth?
Bullshite on toast.

[Bryan Buchan]

35. Believe what you like

I just wanted to give the person who asked this question an example I have been witness too, but I cannot disclose companies my employer contracts with...sorry. I have work ethics to abide by as well.

[zanana1]

60. um...I wouldn't call it "eithics".

I agree with the previous poster. You may be gutless and not want to admit it. Then again, you may not have any proof of your assertions.

[FLPanhandle]

11. Stories/experiences of union excesses

I've been at clients where I wasn't allowed to plug in my desk lamp. Plugging in a desk lamp was a union job, so I had to call someone, wait for the union electrician to show up and plug it in for me. At one client I couldn't carry a box of binders or I'd be breaking a union rule. I had to carry two binders at a time and make lots of trips.

At times Unions have gone a little overboard on some of the rules and the stories of their excesses make the news. People form opinions from that.

The fact that these are minor things and in the grand scheme the unions are doing more good than bad is then lost.

[raccoon]

16. Great post. It's just like the frivolous lawsuits you hear about in the news.

Rarely if ever do you hear of the outcomes of these ridiculous lawsuits.

[Sherman A1]

26. As much as it may seem those rules are absurd (and perhaps they are)

one needs to consider why they were put into place. Was there something going on in the past that made those seemingly absurd rules necessary?

:shrug:

[KharmaTrain]

12. The Unions Fell Asleep...

In the 70s and 80s many unions become top heavy with administration and politics...alienating a lot of rank and file and opening the doors to the problems they now face. I saw the union in my industry disintegrate during those years thanks to infighting and arrogance that led many to losing interest and the corporates able to divide and conquer...offering union members secure jobs if they leave the union. Today it's all but non-existant and still does little than offer a group insurance policy to its members.

Many unions lost focus from their origins...becoming "partners" with management that was used to further divide the ranks. By the time people started waking up the number of union households had dropped and its effectiveness waned as well. I can't remember the last strike that really effected the economy or forced an industry to accept union demands...it's all been compromise and give backs non-stop since the 80s.

[NNN0LHI]

20. Wait a minute

Didn't you say before that you drive a non-union made car?

And now you are saying the unions fell asleep?

Something is funny here.

Maybe your union went to hell because a lot of union members like yourself had non-union made cars in the employee parking lot? After all they stick out like a sore thumb and I avoid doing business with or support people who drive them whether they are union or not. I know a lot of other UAW members who feel the same way.

Perhaps you are the one who fell asleep and people like myself noticed it and figured screw you too?

Ever considered that possibility?

Cheers ...

Don

[KharmaTrain]

23. I Drove Fords Until 2003...

My father used to buy LTDs that were made at the South Works. Everyone in my family drove Fords...no matter the troubles we had with 'em. In the 90s I also had a Saturn...union made in a right to work state but that's another subject. So I doubt my blue Large Tin Dog sitting in the parking lots in the 70s and 80s had anything to do with the union busting that was already underway. Not sure why that is relevant anyway?

As far as my experience with unions...I wanted to join but when I was breaking in and taking whatever job I could they were non-union shops. At one place we tried to unionize...and the union did precious little to help us organize other than to tell us that our employer couldn't stop us from having a vote. Unfortunately when management caught wind and a couple of people were fired (the union did nothing to help) that was the end of that. I saw union shops vanish one by one and a union that did little to help recruit new members or help those who had lost jobs...if anything, if it was known you had a union card there was a good chance you'd miss out on a job. And I had something to do with that to? I only wish I could have had the chance to join a union. To use an awful paraphrase..."I didn't leave the unions, the unions left me".

Today I'm watching my children who are teachers and union members and the struggles both they and their unions are facing. Last Fall after two years without a contract the union at my daughter's school struck and immediately were under attack by the local media. There was little solidarity other than students...other unions didn't send help. This is what I'm refering to. I remember a teacher's strike in my school district at a kid where not only were there teachers marching but also policemen, pipe fitters and other union members.

I make my comments and observations out of frustration Don...

[Romulox]

32. Do you think that UAW workers and their families stopped eating in 2003?

Your PAST support for unions is just that...in the past.

If you drive a Toyota or similar NOW, and then whine about the treatment of your children, well...ever hear of cause and effect? :hi:

[KharmaTrain]

45. I'm Definitely Not Whining...

Just describing my experiences. I'm glad to see the union movement starting to energize but the OP was trying to get a handle on how the unions have fallen over the years. I see a tremendous amount of union resentment from friends who paid in for years and saw their jobs eventually gone to younger pups who worked cheaper or outsourced and the union did nothing. You don't win hearts and minds that way. Just sayin'...

I'm hoping my next car is an electric or hydrogen cell car made in the U.S. My Nissan was assembled in Tennessee and is maintained by union mechanics. A lot of Fords are assembled in Mexico. So you can't tell a book by its cover.

My hopes are my children find a purpose in the unions that many in my generation didn't. It's hard to compare a teachers union to the UAW to ASCME or AFTRA or any other union...they've all had their struggles. I'm hoping that we can see more solidarity these days...back to where unions were in the 20s through the 50s when they were at their strongest and most influential.

[Romulox]

47. You don't seem to understand what "Solidarity" means!

Your excuses are convoluted. Unions didn't prevent outsourcing, so you went with a non-union car? When perfectly good union made alternatives are available? It's ridiculous.

"My hopes are my children find a purpose in the unions that many in my generation didn't."

In other words, you want people to support you and yours in a way you are not willing to support others. Again I ask you: ever hear of cause and effect?

"I'm hoping that we can see more solidarity these days..."

You don't seem to understand what "solidarity" means though. :hi:

[KharmaTrain]

57. So My Car Brought Down The Unions?

You're losing me there Don. Of course I never can understand "solidarity" from a union standpoint since I have never been a union member. I won't take the guilt trip as the problems of the auto industry or the failures of the union movement. No, I don't expect anyone to support me...have spent most of my working life making sure I didn't have to rely on others cause there was no one to turn to...no union...just a lot of hours and hard work. But again this isn't about me...this is an observation of what I've seen over almost 40 working years. I see your point, but I don't see how buying a "Made in America" car helps strengthen the teachers unions my kids belong to or preventing the busting of unions in Wisconsin...

:hi:

[Romulox]

59. You're calling for "Solidarity!" for *YOUR FAMILY*, but giving yourself a pass from supporting

others.

It's your attitude, writ large, that has accelerated the destruction of the working classes.

And NOW you call for "Solidarity!" for your children, when you showed none for someone else's? This is what I mean by "cause and effect". :hi:

" I see your point, but I don't see how buying a "Made in America" car helps strengthen the teachers unions my kids belong to or preventing the busting of unions in Wisconsin..."

You need to start with a dictionary. Then a history book. You use the word "Solidarity", but haven't a clue what it means!

[NNN0LHI]

56. Let me try to explain this problem

When in the past public employees like your daughters needed a raise or better benefits, which by the way I knew would raise my property taxes, I was all for it.

Want to know why I was all for it? Because I knew that I had the ability to go to my union leadership and request and receive a raise myself to keep up with such things as rising property taxes.

But now I no longer have the ability to go to my union leadership and request and receive a raise. Instead all I get is cuts in my pension and benefits.

So naturally now when I see a public employee parking lot full on non-union and imported cars and those employees are asking for a raise and better benefits, which I know will raise my property taxes, I can't be for it any more.

Not because I don't want to help them. But because I am going broke and don't want to lose my house.

See what happened now?

Take care and see you later.

Don

[KharmaTrain]

67. They Were Just Hanging On To What They Had...

The strike was to prevent further cuts and freeze their salaries and benefits. The district wanted...and eventually got...more give backs. They were striking just to hold the line. Even then she ran into a lot of resistance from family and friends...fearful of their taxes being raised. Also didn't help the local papers ran articles stating the "average salary" was over $100k...averaging in administrator salaries in with the "grunts". Some of these critics held union cards...yet when it came to self interest they looked at "what's in it for me" first.

The problem of funding education in this state...I don't blame you for your attitude. Remember waaaaay back when they set up the lottery and that money was supposed to fund education. Guess where that money ended up. The collapse of the real estate bubble (which made states a ton of extra revenues in over-priced assessments (including yours I'll bet)) and depression of retail is at the heart of the financial messes faces schools but the unions have gotten the blame. Damn those teachers for wanting a fair wage...and their high faluten six figure incomes (:sarcasm:) Combined my kids don't come close to that kind of money.

I feel very forunate...and it pains me to see so many struggling. I've also been around the block too many times to feel positive about how things are going to go in the short or long term. There are too many good people like you, Don, who also worked hard and have seen things deteriorate in the past decade. Instead of looking forward to being rewarded for work now struggling to get by.

Cheers...and thank you for your contributions here and understanding.

:hi:

[NNN0LHI]

72. I do remember the lottery that was going to fund all our education needs when it began here

Like it was yesterday. Someone gave my dad a $.50 cent ticket for the first drawing. He was passing them out to all his friends. It was 1, 2, 3. And it won! I think it paid about 60 bucks? And the guy who gave it to him came back and wanted half the money. Can you believe that?

Funny world isn't it?

Yea, it was good talking to you today as usual.

Thanks for the discussion.

Learned a lot from you over the years.

Don

[Ikonoklast]

46. Unions got complacent under the leadership of George Meaney.

He stayed way too long, and instead of pushing for organizing even more employees, trades, and shops from a position of strength he decided that things were fine as they were and not worth expending the effort.

Meaney became the consummate Washington insider, and lost sight of what his job actually was.

Picking Kirkland as the heir apparent was a huge mistake, Kirkland sat by and did exactly nothing as union membership declined precipitously under his non-existent leadership.

The AFL-CIO leadership at that time was its own worst enemy.

The "Go along to get along" crowd was getting their lunch eaten by big business while they stifled people like Andy Stern of the SEIU.

[alc]

13. bad press

They need to work on their PR. You don't often see good things they accomplish. You do see things like
* shutting down a high schooler's summer job
* stopping volunteers from cleaning a park
* "inconveniencing" people with a strike
* taking 7 years to fire a union teacher
* union teachers playing cards all day because they can't be fired

I hate seeing the "official spokesperson" reply to situations (police, governments, military, corporations), but union leaders show why it's important to fill that role with someone who's good at it. I don't know if it's the media seeking out someone to embarrass the union, or the union not sending a qualified PR person, but the union message that makes the news usually doesn't help their cause.

[Zorra]

15. I believe this may be a large part of the reason why:

“Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires” - John Steinbeck

[locahungaria]

43. +100! n/t

[Marrah_G]

18. I think many find it easier to complain about other people benefits then to demand their own.

It's the bring them down to the same level instead of move them up to the same level sort of mentality.

[Sherman A1]

27. There are lots of reasons

some are noted above this post and they all in some way contributed.

[Township75]

30. Sometimes jealousy, sometimes based on experience.

My experience has been that many people don't like unions out of jealousy of how good they are reported to have it. Especially when nonunion people take paycuts and they hear about a contract negotiation with union people where the union is asking for more pay and/or benefits.

I also work at a unionized place. I am not union, but the majority in my group are. They HATE the union. They said the union is a bigger threat to them than anythign management can do. The leaders are corrupt and interpret rules, or ignore them and make deals with management, to their own benefit. When discplinary actions are taken it depends on if you are a union leader or not. Some feel it restricts their ability to do certain jobs, because it is about seniority and not skill set with a union. They are not in a right-to-work state, so they have to stay members and/or have dues paid to the union.

I think unions would do better if they stopped pretending that it is 1970 where there isn't competition for companies outside the US and started basing things on skillset and not seniority. Those 2 often correlate very well.

[Populist_Prole]

31. My own observations of co-workers and friends at and away from work, 3 main reasons,

I'm unionized and have worked in that environment all my professional life. 3 reasons, in descending order:

1) Hard-right social conservatives that are hostile to unions because they ostensibly support the Democratic party. This is very big where I work.

2) The envy factor pointed out very well in reply #7, somewhat related to the next point below.

3) Amongst my non-union and white collar friends and acquaintances: Pure corporate media brainwashing.

[Romulox]

33. Sooo many DUers demand that you support THEIR union, but won't reciprocate

It's the "Solidarity bumper sticker on my Prius!" syndrome. It's a microcosm of America.

[NNN0LHI]

41. Part that kills me is they act like no one notices. Like they are invisible or something

They stick out like the proverbial skunk at the picnic and they think no one can see them.

And a lot of them are educated people. At least that is what many of them claim anyway. I sometimes wonder if they got their "degree", at Donald Trumps college.

Don

[Romulox]

42. Both Anthony Weiner and DNC chair Debbie Wasserman Schultz drive Nissans, for example

(well, Debbie's is an Infiniti.)

I'm sure to Ms. Wasserman Schultz, it was a good idea to buy a foreign luxury car while people in my home town suffer. But for the life of me, I don't understand how the Party thinks hurting Democrats in Detroit and Cleveland are supposed to take that. How can she advocate on behalf of unions when she refuses to support them in her personal life? :shrug:

[NNN0LHI]

63. I'm convinced that was one of the deciding factors here in Illinois that we kept a Dem governor

It was a dead heat right up until near the end when it was disclosed the GOP thug was driving an imported car and the Dem was driving an American union made car.

Went all downhill for the GOP thug after that came out and the Dem won. And this was right after the Blago fiasco here. We still kept the Dem.

Don

[Romulox]

68. Wife's Taurus was made in Chicago.

Chicago Assembly (frequently Torrence Avenue Assembly) is Ford Motor Company's oldest continually-operated automobile manufacturing plant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Assembly

"It was a dead heat right up until near the end when it was disclosed the GOP thug was driving an imported car and the Dem was driving an American union made car."

Call me a one issue voter if you must, but my ears are deaf to Ms. Wasserman-Schultz. :shrug:

[StevesRedLens]

36. My opinion on some reasons

Capitalist propaganda, corruption scandals of union bosses and sometimes whole unions (Mafia, etc), exportation of jobs oversees that was all spinned as the fault of uncompromising unions (true in certain instances), established unions focusing too much on 'traditional' union jobs and not supporting workers of a changing economy enough (service workers, farm workers, retail, etc), leaving them to become organized by the more 'radical' union movements (SEIU, UFW) which tends to be immigrant and minority oriented and that tended to turn off many prejudiced people towards unions plus give ammunition to the conservative movement to turn WASP Americans against the union movement.

Just a few reasons I believe many are anti-union. Sad. Hopefully this will change and I am a somewhat encouraged now that more people are starting to come back around to the thought that maybe unions are not as bad as they have been taught. We'll see.

We need SOLIDARITY for workers; whether they are union or not (yet). Strong, positive support from unions and members to non-union workers support sets a good example and may take away some of the 'scare' factor for those that have been indoctrinated that all unions are bad. More organizing and leadership from the working ranks of the unions are important too.

[Maru Kitteh]

38. My parents bought the idea that all unions were simply branches of the mafia

They thought that being in a union meant contributing to prostitution, drug rings, etc.

They both broke their bodies working in factories. It probably took 10 years off my dad's life, at least, and as a reward for over 30 years of service, my mom got a cheap tea set and a whopping $190/month pension.

[BOG PERSON]

44. there is an unwritten social compact b/w capital + labor in this country

i'm not sure how it originated. but it still holds, even if it is now a compact b/w a zombie bourgeoisie and a zombie working-class.

[PatSeg]

48. There are a lot of bogus reasons to be anti-union,

but over the years there have been a lot of negative union stories that were sensational enough to make the news.

I knew a paramedic who worked for the Chicago Fire Department during the 23-day fire fighters strike in 1980. People died because of that strike and this particular paramedic refused to strike because he had taken an oath to save lives. He had to live in his ambulance and hide it in alleys. He also had to hide his own car because it would be vandalized. He is NOT anti-union, the union has been very good to him, but he was and is against certain professions going on strike.

Stories like this feed anti-union sentiments, though I've found most people opposed to unions to be petty and jealous as a rule. Unions are comprised of people and they will make mistakes. Perhaps that is why it is important they set high standards for their conduct and behavior. Any weakness will be exploited by those threatened by existence of unions.

[Cleita]

49. My Republican father, who was in management, had

union workers under him and he hated unions. Imagine his shock when I joined a union (open shop) and he found out because we went out on strike. About two weeks into the strike he started coming around when I explained things to him from my POV, the worker's POV. The company I worked for had both union and non union departments as well. I told him if I worked in the non-union sector, I would be making less in wages, wouldn't be getting the overtime and wouldn't have any recourse if my manager decided to demote or fire me. He started coming around and seeing the light.

Also, in the same job, we had non union workers, who wouldn't join because they didn't want to pay the dues and didn't want to go out on strike if called for. They scabbed when we went on strike and the company gave them all kinds of extra perks during that period like free lunches and coupons to go shopping. However, when we ended the strike and went back to work, every single one of them got fired when the company did its seasonal downsizing. They were the first on the chopping block because there was no organization behind them to protect their jobs. The union members were untouchable. So because they didn't want to pay dues and go out on strike, they lost their jobs at good union wages instead.

[Ganja Ninja]

50. Having worked for GM at one time I can tell you that it has a lot to do with envy.

Most of the anti union commentary I hear comes from people who work in low paying jobs and feel that union workers are overpaid. It never seems to dawn on them that they are underpaid. And many times they are people that couldn't hold a union job or any decent job. They couldn't take the mind numbing boredom of an assembly line. They sometimes are just too fly-by-night to hold a job of any real responsibility or one that requires a person to take the time to learn a trade. They only want to put in their hours and get a check. Don't ask them to lead or think or take pride in what they do. Don't expect a skill from them. Just plug them in and send someone reliable by to fix the mess they make later.

[Logical]

51. My issue is that many union people call the Honda workers in Ohio....

SCABS because they vote NOT to go union because they are happy with the way Honda is treating them.

I have two friends working there that LOVE their job. And Honda has been great to them.

But many union people say they are scabs because they trust Honda more than the UAW!

That puts unions in a bad light to me.

[Ganja Ninja]

54. But the wages and the treatment they enjoy is because the unions exist in the first place

Without the fear of unions Honda would likely not be so accommodating. That's what makes them scabs. They enjoy the benefits the unions fight for without contributing to the fight.

[Township75]

58. Horseshit

One reason I know people hate unions is that they either take or are given credit for everything that workers today enjoy, such as benefits, even if it were because of salary people not unions that we have them.

If that were the case, only union professions would get payed well. Any profession can unionize, but many professions like engineers, lawyers, doctors do not unionize and they are doing very well so it can't be because of unions.

Honda is a Japanese company, and Japan is the world's role model of how employers and employees can work together. That has more to do with them treating their workers well than the crumbling UAW.

[Ganja Ninja]

66. Professionals are rarely unionized.

You can't seriously be comparing assembly line workers and skilled tradesmen to doctors and lawyers. And you might want to check and see what sort of working conditions and wages Honda is paying over in China before you crow about how wonderful and generous they are.

(Here let me do it for you)http://www.caradvice.com.au/69389/honda-workers-win-pay-raise-after-china-strikes/

[Ganja Ninja]

71. And the news form India shows just how generous Honda is when they don't have to fear unions.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/dec2008/hond-d24.shtml

[Ikonoklast]

64. Bingo.

Without the fear of the UAW organizing their plants, Honda would pay their employees quite differently.

I do understand that Honda is one of the companies that treat their employees like human beings, but the underlying question remains, do they treat their employees well because they want to do so, or because they have to?

[raccoon]

80. Great post. I believe there are a great many employers who, if there were no unions and never had

been any, would pay everyone the minimum wage and NO BENEFITS.

Heck, what am I saying, many employers do that now!

And if there was no such thing as a minimum wage...all bets are off.

[Romulox]

69. It's the definition of the word.

"But many union people say they are scabs because they trust Honda more than the UAW!"

If Honda workers side with management over other workers, what the hell do you think that makes them? :silly: :hi:

[Logical]

73. You do realize some people trust the UAW less than Honda? Don't you?

[Romulox]

74. Right. They're called "scabs".

You don't like it, because you wished "scab" meant something other than its usual meaning. :shrug:

[Logical]

75. And you are the reason I do not like unions! n-t

[Romulox]

76. ...because I own a dictionary and know the definition of common words?

That's a lame excuse! :hi:

[Logical]

77. So anyone not in a union is a scab? Brilliant!

[Ganja Ninja]

79. That is so much bullshit.

Those people enjoy the benefits the unions fight for won over many years. Their trust in Honda is hogwash. They're just cheap and selfish. They don't want to pay union dues and they would rather let other people fight for the wages and benefits they enjoy. And if you don't think that's the case just check the links I posted in posts 66 & 71 to see how Honda treats workers when they don't have to deal with the threat of a union.

[EC]

52. Jealousy

They can't get the union jobs, so they are jealous.

[joeglow3]

61. I am more ambivalent

I support people's rights to unionize. However, as an accountant who is successful, I am happy to not be in a union. I consistently get above average reviews that I objectively believe I deserve. I consistently work harder than and outperform my peers. Every year, my raise has been higher than the average raise and I believe I also deserved that.

On the flip side, I had a client in Wisconsin that we audited whose accountants were unionized. I envied the fact that all left at 5:00 every day, but also knew they all got the exact same raise every year (as dictated by their contract). I have benefitted from the ability to get raises commensurate with the work I do, the ability to personally negotiate mid-year raises and, in 2 instances, negotiate better deals with different employers.

Again, I am not anti-union and support people's rights to unionize, but have come to the conclusion that a union is not for me.

[Gregorian]

62. Because they increased worker's wages.

I remember back when plumbers were making $50 per hour in the 70's. That is exactly the kind of stuff that got this going.

I'm only repeating what I've heard over and over.

[PurgedVoter]

65. How the Brainwashing happens.

When a corporation kills, maims and robs, they either get away free, or a manager is blamed. A manager. The wealthy owners are protected from all blame even if it happens over and over. When a corporation kills, maims and robs, and the evidence is not clear, it is liable if you say anything. When there is union unrest however, the news talks of worker greed, selfishness, trespassing and mob connections.

When you work for a non union corporation, you are absolutely not going to get the advance or raise if you seem sympathetic to unions. Ever. But you can say anything bad that you want about unions no matter how wild. The stuff you hear about unions in Chicago makes you wonder how there is even a city there.

It does not take long a person to be convinced that everyone hates unions in that environment. After that it does not take long for the majority to be absolutely certain that unions are evil.

[ThomWV]

78. Because he and his kind are stupid fucks who would not know what was good for them if it kissed them