Enough with the "getting treatment"! I can understand someone with a drinking

[hedgehog]

problem needing support to stay off the bottle. But, really, what part of "don't talk dirty and flirt with strangers when in a committed relationship" is it so hard to understand? If I may appropriate a commercial slogan, sometimes you "just don't do it!"

[JDPriestly]

1. What do you know about AA?

[ChrisBorg]

6. They have the best stories.

"I remember when I was drinking. My buddies and I would get stinking drunk and go running around hootin and hollarin and having the best times of our lives. Thank God that's over."

[JDPriestly]

34. It is a good way to deal with self-destructive behavior.

I also have friends in overeaters' anonymous.

I've never personally belonged to any of those groups, but I have seen what a positive influence they have had in the lives of people I have known.

Addiction is a really tough problem.

I think that it goes back to the way you are treated as a very small baby and child and fear of abandonment issues.

[Warren DeMontague]

42. Sorry. As someone with up close & personal experience around some of it, I disagree.

It's not about "the way you were treated as a small baby and child"... as far as alcoholism, as a big one, I am 100% dead convinced there is a physiological, genetic thing happening that is directly tied into the way the body processes alcohol. It's not about how anyone was treated as a small baby or child. I've got people in my family who were treated just fine as small babies and children, and yet for some reason the minute alcohol hit their bloodstream they were not handling it in a 'normal' way. Others, particularly female, would seem to be okay with alcohol until a very specific point in life; usually, 40s/menopause.. and then WHAM! All of a sudden they are totally unable to drink without devleoping a physical dependence. Immediately.

This is a physical, physiological problem.. while 'spiritual' solutions like AA do work for some (but not all) people with the problem, there are also OTHER alternatives, like rational recovery and secular sobriety groups, which also work for people who don't agree or accept that the core problem is a lack of contact with "God as you understand him"

[JDPriestly]

61. Yes, there are secular alternatives that still provide an anchor for people

with addiction problems. I've had two alcoholic bosses. They were both nightmare bosses. One of them cried a lot -- just like a certain prominent Congressman.

[orion007]

68. I've enjoyed your posts today very much, informative and much

needed while the Weiner battle continues on DU.
Thank you,

[Warren DeMontague]

69. Thanks.

I think the guy clearly has some problems in his marriage, but that's really gonna be between him and his wife. Some people shouldn't be married, that's the bottom line.

[orion007]

71. The problem is most never realize this..1x2x3x ..lol nt

[Rhiannon12866]

81. I belong to AA and I agree with you.

So many people say that they come from alcoholic families that it has to be more than a coincidence. Some of the behavior may be learned, but I really do believe that genetics is a major component. As for the religious vs. spiritual argument, I'm not at all religious and it's worked for me (so far). :)

One of the sayings that stuck with me is:

AA works for those who believe in God.
AA works for those who don't believe in God.
AA doesn't work for those who think they are God. ;)

[Warren DeMontague]

82. With all due respect, there are alot of Atheists who have problems with AA & the 12 steps

and it's not because they "think they're God".

Some Atheists and non-religious people can get around, or to, a higher power via whatever semantic or other means they take. And -seriously- good for them (and you). But you ought to understand the objections- the real objections- many of us have to 'non-religious' meetings that end with the Lord's Prayer, for instance, or being told that the problem- at core- is not turning our lives over to 'god as we understand him'.

The more intelligent, forward-thinking treatment people I've come across grok this, and realize that different paths work for different people- and they're also not above offering information about everything from the latest scientific findings about addiction and neurochemistry along with tools like REBT for the sobriety toolkit. The worst ones I've seen are the ones who tell people to "shut up and work the program" because "your best thinking got you here". I have problems with anyone- however well intentioned- that advocates people stop thinking for themselves.

The saying you put there illustrates- while I'm sure this isn't intentional- the problem a lot of us have with the 'shop-worn wisdom' that comes out of some of those rooms. See, the implied message in there is not only that AA is the only solution or the only solution that alcoholics should pursue, but if AA doesn't work for you it's because YOU have some kind of fundamental fucked-up-edness (beyond, say, being an alcoholic and having the 'spiritual illness' that AA tells you is the cause of alcoholism) i.e. people for whom AA doesn't work 'think they are god'.

... let's follow that logic, then. If AA doesn't work for someone, and they (despite what many people in AA will tell you, which is that it's impossible) manage to achieve happy, joyous, and free long-term sobriety outside AA, does that mean those people ARE god? Because I know quite a few of them. If the AA wisdom is right, and only God can pull off sobriety... well, do the math.

The fact is, there ARE secular alternatives to AA and the 12 Steps, and statistically, the success rates of recovery and long term (5+ years) sobriety are at least as good as AA's.

http://rational.org

http://lifering.org/

[ismnotwasm]

91. I got in an on-line argument with that RA founder dude

Actually, it was a brief email exchange. I thought I was being totally supportive of RA, he just wanted to slam AA. He Didn't sound healthy, he sounded stupid and smarmy. This is before that moderation management woman went and killed someone drunk driving. His response at THAT time was she wasn't following her own program, or whatever they called it.

Hopefully it's a bit better, this was years ago. I don't believe in God, I'm very active in AA I know where several atheist/agnostic AA groups meetings are. Still, AA says what it says, and some people don't even what the G. word mentioned, ever. It makes no sense to them. I don't care what it takes, AA, RA, church, whatever gets people well.

Back to the sex addiction thing, I don't know. I saw a documentary on it one time that was pretty horrifying, people losing everything spending every productive moment of their lives pursuing sex or preparing for sex, or thinking about sex. Sounded like addiction to me.

[Warren DeMontague]

96. What's "RA"? You mean Rational Recovery?

It's my takeaway that Trimpey can be, in his own way, as dogmatic as some of the most overzealous god-pushing 12 steppers. But RR works for some people. Also there are tools, like REBT (Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy) which overlap with some of the RR tools and ideas without being as centered on, again, 'ours is the ONE and ONLY way to do it'.

Meetings work for a lot of people, as does having group support, which is what the Lifering Secular Recovery people are about; they're an outgrowth of what used to be secular organizations for sobriety.

Here's my take on AA and why I think it works as well as my problem with some of the dogma (because I think a 'higher power' is a fiction, albeit -for some people- a very useful fiction) ... I think when people are deeply embedded in an active physiological addiction along with all the mental effects that entails, it is very difficult if not impossible for them to use the same brain which is inside the addiction to get out of the addiction. Sort of like using a broken hammer to fix itself. I always likened early sobriety to trying to cut one's own hair in the mirror... you kind of have to do the exact opposite of what your brain thinks it wants to do. For many people, turning the mess 'over to God' is a way to get out of the headspace of the addiction. For others, recognizing and sometimes personifying the 'addictive voice' can help, which is what trimpey's AVRT does as well as REBT.

I'm totally in favor of people doing whatever works, and I know lots of people whose lives were saved by AA. My problem comes in when 12 steppers espouse dogma implying it's the only game in town, or the only way to become 'really' sober. It's not.



Also, re; "Sex addiction"- I don't know. Part of me, having seen people go through stuff like the DTs, is reluctant to accept that psychological dependence or even obsessive/compulsive behavior qualifies as the same animal as 'addiction'. I would hope that, at the very least, we could agree that no one will benefit from definitions of 'sex addiction' as 'masturbates more than 3X a week' -- no one, that is, except financially interested 'treatment professionals'. With a more expansive use of the word, though, if sex or eating can be an 'addiction', so can exercise (guilty here!) as well as going to 12 step meetings.

[ismnotwasm]

98. Oops

Yes RR. Sorry!

Anyway, to me AA works in part simply because of psychological support, and a few pretty basic psychological principles

Many, many people have some idea of God, or a higher power and AA simply reinforces what was there-- personally, I just can't. I don't mind those that do and they don't mind me. The other great thing about AA is the structure of it. It's like an anarchy, but not quite. No bosses. No real rules. No pressure. Individual groups may act as though those things exist, but you don't have to go to them. Which why we can have atheist groups, or nudist groups for that matter That lack of authority, except an ill-defined 'higher power, or "God as you understand him" appeals to so many of us who forgot how to deal with 'normal society'
What else works we call the 'commonality', I can go to AA and talk about shit I would never discuss with my middle class co-workers, it's very comforting. I don't like zealots either, and I tend to shoot em down. Kindly.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. Google "The Orange Papers"

That's an excellent place to start.

[KittyWampus]

2. He's clearly either got a problem with compulsive or addictive behavior. If you really cared about

him, as a Rep or a human being, you'd release he needs help and want him to get it.

He needs to regain his center. To own up to the extent of his behavior and start on the road to recovery.

THAT is how you regain respect of your peers. How you begin to rebuild trust of your family and friends.

Not by being the equivalent of a dry drunk.

[left coaster]

5. Couldn't have said it better! nt

[Warren DeMontague]

77. "dry drunk" is a bullshit 12 step term to validate some of AA's worst tautological 'truths'

Specifically, that the 12 steps are the ONLY way to become truly 'sober', because if you're not 'working the steps' you're just a 'dry drunk' and therefore not really 'sober', no matter how long you've actually abstained from alcohol.

Thereby protecting the sacred -if statistically bogus- assertion that the 12 steps are the only REAL path to -ahem- 'sobriety'

It's ridiculous, meaningless psychobabble.

[Glimmer of Hope]

79. Exactly. I really think he has some sort of compulsive disorder.

I wish him the best.

[CTyankee]

85. I'm no psychologist but I've seen how ADD made my granddaughter's life

a virtual trainwreck until she was put on the appropriate medication. She is doing SO much better at age 15 than she was doing at age 10. She is understanding and making good choices, not destructive ones. She has learned that she has to "step up" in certain situations or suffer consequences. This hasn't been easy on her or our family.

Here we see the perfect example of how it takes a "kick in the pants" to change behavior as it does for those of us who don't have ADD and just need to face reality. In my own life I've had those kicks and they have been painful but they did the trick in changing my behavior and my own denial (and magical thinking).

[OKNancy]

3. It doesn't matter. It's a good POLITICAL move

If he really has a problem it's good and if he doesn't and is just a horndog it's also a good political move.
Maybe his wife thinks it's a good idea too.

[aquart]

41. Precisely.

It gives cover to all the sanctimonious hypocrites in the party who now feel required to howl for his resignation.

And it gives cover to all the sanctimonious hypocrites on DU who can now claim they were only thinking of poor Anthony.

[orion007]

70. This may open another Pandora's Box here but many wives

actually love it when their husbands are caught doing whatever the no-no is.
I don't know how long he and his wife have known each other, but she was aware of the sexting issue and it was supposed to cease.
This isn't directed towards her, but I've known a few women who stayed with chronic cheaters and each time their husbands were caught the wives once again had a "good-boy" for awhile until the next time.
This was their reward time I guess for living this vicious cycle and being what now some refer to as the enabler.
In a high profile couple as the Weiners they don't have the luxury of a private life, so this could help him stop if he so chooses to.
Where there's a will there is a way, so we don't know, but I wish him well.

[JVS]

4. They're going to cure him of wanting to have sex or flirt?

[sixmile]

7. Thank you

Most sane post here.

[xchrom]

9. indeed. nt

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

14. Pray away the libido. But maybe this is secular, and he'll just be helped to "overcome" his urges.

[ChrisBorg]

16. You can only suppress and that always works out sooooo well.

[GodlessBiker]

18. They'll sprinkle salt peter on his corn flakes.

[GodlessBiker]

24. .

[JVS]

28. No Ludovico technique?

[GodlessBiker]

36. Like Homer training Bart not to be gay by parking him in front of a smoking ad with beautiful women.

All it did was to make Bart want to smoke.

[KittyWampus]

19. What the fuck? Most people are able to express their libido without self destructing, lying

and losing control of their actions.

[GodlessBiker]

62. How is he self destructing? I'd lie about my personal sexual actions, too. I see nothing wrong...

with lying about that.

He is not self-destructing. He is being destroyed by others.

[CTyankee]

86. And yet he KNEW that he was a target of the RW, yet continued his reckless behavior.

At a certain point, he has to be honest with himself and ask himself if what he is doing is helping ANYTHING he cares about, such as his passionately felt political beliefs. He was doing wonderful work as a strong progressive voice and now his voice will be silenced. How is that a GOOD thing?

[orion007]

73. You got it...he'll learn how to count to 10 first.....nt

[KittyWampus]

17. If your sexual tendencies lead to out of control behavior, lying and self destruction

you certainly CAN get help and change. But it requires commitment, honesty and hard work.

Equating Weiner's behavior to the normal sexual behavior of a GLBT individual is uncalled for.

[ChrisBorg]

35. I did not equate the 2. I equated the idea that you can change a persons sexual preferences.

You can't change a leg man into a breast man either. Does that clarify it for you?

Weiner's behavior is in no way equal to GLBT behavior and I didn't equate it to it.

[oberliner]

11. Sending naked pictures of yourself to people you've never met is "flirting" ?

Do you really believe that?

[JVS]

15. Different strokes for different folks.

[KittyWampus]

13. No, it's helping him stop the destructive behavior and the lying.

[provis99]

63. the internet is absolutely full of amateur porn.

There must be hundreds of thousands of people just in this country posting their homemade porn. Are all those hundreds of thousands of people in need of therapy, too?

[HappyMe]

52. Exactly. nt

[ljm2002]

57. No.

Presumably they will help him deal with his compulsive behavior.

Everyone keeps saying "Why did he keep doing it, even after he knew he was being tracked online?" Well that is pretty much the definition of compulsive behavior: you can't stop yourself, even when you know it is dangerous and potentially harmful.

[orion007]

72. lol....just not social media sex/flirting....

[GodlessBiker]

10. If everyone who has done what he did quit to seek help, the economy would collapse.

[KittyWampus]

22. 99.999% of the people sexting aren't lying about it and destroying their lives and losing

the respect of their family.

[GodlessBiker]

31. Most lie about it. They lie to their coworkers if asked if they do it, most likely.

And I don't think anyone here knows whether or not he is destroying his life through this.

[JVS]

37. Maybe it isn't that his sexual life is destroying his marriage.

Maybe his marriage is destroying the way he expresses his sexuality. I'm pretty sure that in the 45 years before he got married he didn't live the life of a monk. Maybe it was a mistake to think he could change his ways.

[GodlessBiker]

40. It's tough to teach an old dog new tricks.

[woo me with science]

75. Oh my god.

Maybe that's what happened!

:rofl:

(good post)

[Warren DeMontague]

78. Apparently, everyone who has ever masturbated more than 3 times in a week is a "sex addict".

I swear, I should have gone into the sex addiction treatment industry. It's going to be the only job LEFT.

[CTyankee]

87. It may surprise you to learn that people can and do happily and joyfully masturbate

and have sex with another without wrecking their careers in the process...

[Warren DeMontague]

88. Yes, it's shocking.

It may surprise YOU that some people don't give a shit what consenting adults do with their private parts, as long as they don't break any laws, and that some people even believe that a congressman screwing around is a matter between him and his wife.

[CTyankee]

95. In an ideal world, I don't. We don't live there, tho. Do we?

[Warren DeMontague]

89. Anyway, then why is 'sexual addiction' being defined as masturbating more than 3X a week?

Maybe they crunched the numbers, and figured that only going after the 'my career was wrecked by sex' crowd wouldn't really be all that lucrative? :shrug:

[CTyankee]

94. Look, I don't really care what Weiner did if it were just private, but you know and I know

what the game in Washington is. Let's not kid ourselves. This is high stakes and Weiner can't or won't control his behavior as it applies to his situation. the bottom line is the that the Dems in Congress have to get rid of this guy.

sorry, but this is realpolitik. We liberals don't like it, we scream and yell "double standard" but at the end of the day we get Weiner. Whaddya think?

[Warren DeMontague]

97. Certainly the same argument couldve been made re: Barney Frank.

personally, I'm glad he stuck around.

I've seen too many good people forced from office for bogus reasons (Kevin Shelley in CA) and honestly, I think the 'this will be a distraction' line is overblown, in this case.

His marriage probably won't survive, but in reality this isn't all that different from trying to pick up (adult) women at a bar. Maybe sleazy, but not career-destroying.

[CTyankee]

99. In reality, his own colleagues didn't do to Frank what they are doing to Weiner now.

The leadership of the Dem caucus want Weiner out fast because of the 2012 election and the heyday that the repubs will have with Weiner in that election if Weiner is still around.

Frank didn't have all that to contend with.

We may find all of this stupid and distasteful but when was politics ever known not to be?

[blogslut]

12. It's a matter of a person being unable to control destructive behavior

...despite the fact that they know what they're doing is destructive.

I'm glad you don't know how difficult it is to manage a compulsion. Believe me, it a hellish life.

[ClarkUSA]

20. Weiner is saying this to buy time for himself. If he were serious about it, he'd resign.

Serious therapy for abnormal psychology as illustrated by his perversely arrogant display of narcissistic exhibitionism (he didn't stop even when he knew he was being scrutinized; moreover, he kept in contact with a woman as late as June 2 to advise her to lie) is not possible with "a short leave of absence."

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ClarkUSA]

32. lol! My "cynicism" has been spot-on about Weiner since he first made his non-denial.

Can others say the same about their belief in Weiner?

[aquart]

43. It ain't abnormal psychology in Congress.

It's the profile.

[Little Star]

45. Exactamondo!

[emilyg]

48. +1

[sabrina 1]

83. Yeah, sex is abnormal!

:eyes:

He should not resign since the people do not want him to. And if DC morons force him out, there will be a backlash for them. Cowards, jumping to the pervert Andrew Breitbart's tune, yet again. Now that's a person who treatment!

[JohnnyLib2]

21. It's a way of acknowledging that he doesn't have control--

which seems pretty obvious. Better to find a way to work at curbing himself than saying "no problem, never again."

[hfojvt]

23. does that mean if I had a spouse

that she couldn't wear low cut tops, short skirts, or smile at and talk to men? Where's the line? I mean if she can goto a party or some other event showing decolletage that could launch a thousand ships then why should I worry about a few emails? In fact, feast your eyes and eat your hearts out suckers because she's sleeping with me tonight!

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. Sounds like he may have a sex addiction

Not all addicts use alcohol or drugs.

[seabeyond]

27. having you heard of gambling addiction? it sets of a chemical in brain. repeated

behavior is needed to get the feel. counseling can help to give people tools to not lapse back to get the feel

[GodlessBiker]

29. Bill Clinton should have sought a leave of absence and received treatment, too.

What he did was worse, no? The act and the lying?

[pnwmom]

30. Bill Clinton had the support of Congressional leaders and he was in a critical position.

Weiner doesn't anymore and he's not that important to Congress.

[GodlessBiker]

33. So the higher you are, the more perverse you can be? And the opinion of others matters more...

than whether or not you really need treatment?

[pnwmom]

46. Yup. That's about right. n/t

[Skidmore]

38. try checking this link

http://www.sexaa.org/

[chowder66]

44. Good treatment aslo includes; Understanding consequences and...

they way it affects others around them.

[woo me with science]

47. We live in a Dr. Phil nation.

:eyes:

[provis99]

64. one of the worst aspect of liberals

Is the tendency to think everyone has a neuroses that needs to be attended to by Dr. Drew or Dr. Phil.
heck, most of the people on Dr. Phil don't really have any problems; Jerry Springer is for the folks with real problems.

With conservatives, it's even worse: everyone needs religion to solve any problems and/or wishes that they have.

Isn't the whole country supposed to be, normal?

[KittyWampus]

93. No one here has said everyone has a neuroses. YOU threw out that straw man.

Neither did anyone here bring up Dr. Phil. YOU threw out another straw man.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. Send him to the Gulag for being a naughty boy.

Whereas, "Hey, if you're going to screw around, at least be careful." Would suffice.

[Liberal_in_LA]

50. k&r

[Lizzie Poppet]

51. There's "treatment" for being a serial liar? Wow, who knew?

Like a lot of folks, I have no problem with those stupid texts and photos (assuming everything was indeed on the up-and-up with that teenager). It's more than a week of lying through his teeth about it that irks me. If there's psychotherapy for being a lying d-bag, then by all means, Weiner should seek it.

[sabrina 1]

53. He's a sinner, he needs to purge himself of his afliction.

The Dem. Party has officially demonstrated it's fundie creds.

Still hoping for a pat on the head from the far right fringes. They are truly spineless.

A party that now views sex as something to be ashamed of.

A party that takes its cues on who needs to be tossed overboard from Andrew Breitbart.

How many have they betrayed for him now altogether?

A party that we know will never stand up for you once Andrew Breitbart declares you 'persona non grata'

There was no hope of the party backing him once Breitbart decided he had to go. Not a single Democrat has ever survived a Breitbart attack that I am aware of. Who is this guy working for?

Weiner should ignore them all, he should stay and he should make it a mission to expose the Breitbart smear machine for what it is.

We are on our own also, as the party caters to Corporate America. So he is not alone at least.

[krabigirl]

58. the DLC and the GOP aren't very different, in many regards.

[woo me with science]

76. Therapy is the new religion,

and its absolving priests charge $150 per hour.

[Raine]

54. He needs professional help, his obsession has taken control

over his good judgement.

[tblue37]

55. Compulsive risky behavior is a sort of addiction, like gambling, and

when it interferes with one' life--his career, his personal relationships, etc.--that is also a sign of addiction.

He apparently wasn't able to stop even when he knew the RW trolls were watching his Twitter relationships! Think of the way Gary Hart messed around with Donna Rice even after inviting the reporters to follow him. That is compulsive behavior, and it's exactly the sort of thing people seek treatment for: overeating, excessive shopping, hoarding, gambling, drugs, alcohol.

When someone engages in such compulsive excess to the point of damaging his/her relationships, career, etc., that suggests the person is trying (unsuccessfully) to satisfy an emotional need stemming from some sort of psychological dysfunction.

He probably does need therapy.

[Left coast liberal]

56. It is all about impulse control. nt

[krabigirl]

59. I agree, and I bet they will shove a bunch of big pharma pills at him as well.,

it's the amerikan way.

[Warren DeMontague]

60. And the phantom's shouting, to skinny girls; "get out of here if you don't know"

"Casanova's just being punished, for going to... Desolation Row"

[inna]

65. nothing wrong with getting treatment. I want Weiner to stay, but I do suspect

that he has an internet/sex addiction/underlying psychological issues. So what? Lots of people do. He's still one of the best Congresspeople, that's what counts.

[Prophet 451]

66. It's a good political move

I have no idea if Weiner suffers from some form of sex addiction (yes, that's a real addiction which people need help to overcome) but either way, declaring that you are undergoing therapy or "getting treatment" is a wise political move, it gets the public to believe that you're sorry for whatever you did, learned your lesson and can be trusted not to do it again.

[Nye Bevan]

67. I imagine they will treat him with some kind of aversion therapy.

Like attaching electrodes to his genitals, allowing him to use Twitter, and giving him an electric shock when he tweets anything inappropriate.

[orion007]

74. As long as he's not a masochist it could work...lol

[sense]

80. There is no cure for narcissism.

No treatment really works, due to the narcissist's denial of the disease. They couldn't possibly be ill, because they're so superior.

[JCMach1]

84. And unfortunately that is a disease that affects all politicians...

whatever party...

[Freddie Stubbs]

90. Perhaps he has a substance abuse problem and the sexting is a symptom of if

[yawnmaster]

92. you have to understand compulsive behavior and obsessions...

just saying "don't do it" may not be enough.
There is some drive that must be broken to stop. A lifestyle change of habit, if you will.
But it is not necessarily something one can do on one's own.
Nor is it a sure deal that the behavior will change.

The premise here is that a person wants to change, for whatever reason.