Unschooling: The Ayn Rand approach to education.

[MadHound]

"With summer on the horizon, many teens are looking forward to a break from school and tests. But for Sam Fuller of Albany, Calif., not much is going to change. Fuller is part of a rare minority of home-schoolers who call themselves "unschooled" — a more unstructured, self-directed form of home schooling. There are about 2 million registered home-schoolers in the U.S., a number that grows by about 10 percent a year. Sam's family can keep Sam and his brother home by registering their house as a private school. "

<http://www.npr.org/2011/06/06/137009154/unschooled-how-one-kid-is-grateful-he-stayed-home?ps=cprs>

This sixteen year old didn't learn to read until he was ten. Think of all the opportunity he has lost. This sixteen year old admits that he didn't learn how to spell until last year.

What is this kid going to do with his life? I somehow doubt that his education is complete enough to get him into a decent college in a couple of years, despite the fact that he is now taking a class at a community college.

Frankly, I think that this borders on neglect. Hopefully this trend doesn't catch on.

[Brickbat]

1. I have a friend who is "unschooling" her four children. Some of them learned to read right away,

others didn't. The kids are polite, smart and funny. It's not for everyone, of course.

[MadHound]

4. Others didn't,

Again, opportunity lost for them.

And how are they doing in math, science, history, writing, etc?

The simple fact is that a home is ill equipped to be a science lab, and a child's approach to science, experiments, etc. is a dicey one at best. "Sure, let's go investigate the explosive properties of gasoline:eyes:

Sorry, but any "unschooled" kid is going to be missing a huge educational basis that is necessary to proceed through college and life in general.

Even Montessori and Vygotsky didn't go this far out on that limb.

[Brickbat]

8. As far as reading, some were reading at three or four, others at six.

That might have been a mistake with my wording. I consider six late to be reading, but I think it's probably more along the lines of normal.

For science, they go to weekly homeschooling classes at the local nature center. The oldest, who is now at the public middle school, knew the periodic table (and the point of it, and basic chemistry) when he was 10.

Their math was just fine. As an example, the kids work the weekly family budget and grocery trip. IIRC the oldest was starting on the family's tax return this year.

They have a good grasp of history. All in all, it seems very similar to the liberal arts college education I paid almost $50K for -- great coverage of some subjects, middling in others, and gaps in still more.

I never investigated the explosive properties of gasoline in a school lab; did you?

I am a huge proponent of public education and firmly believe there are a lot of people homeschooling out there who absolutely should not be. I also think there are quite a few people who are doing a good job of homeschooling. I think there are much, much fewer people who can do a good job of unschooling, and that my friend happens to be one of them.

[sense]

65. Perhaps you should

look into unschooling before bashing it. The family in this article is not unschooling, they're simply failing to educate.

The simple fact that you assume all learning is done at home is ridiculous! We are never home. We are in the community learning 24/7. The resources are boundless and mostly free or low cost and most home schooling communities have co-ops where you can learn almost anything taught by people who're experts and very interested in teaching their subjects. No opportunities need be lost.

[SaveAmerica]

98. Please introduce yourself to some families who home/unschool.

"Sorry, but any "unschooled" kid is going to be missing a huge educational basis that is necessary to proceed through college and life in general."

The family that I know who unschooled their kids during the k-12 years have some currently in college who are on the Dean's and President's lists and the oldest received a very nice 4 year scholarship. They have each grabbed their education by the tail and are working it like they own it.

I think it's a good policy in life to not judge an entire group on whatever broad prejudicial idea you might have. Please judge each individual on their examples and results.

[Odin2005]

2. WTF does Ayn Rand have to do with Unschooling?

Unschooling is a vary valid and PROGRESSIVE educational philosophy that goes by the fact that children are NATURALLY CURIOUS.

This is a fucking hitpiece.

[MadHound]

5. You call it progressive, I call it lazy parenting,

Letting the individual child determine their education, at their own pace, when the mood strikes them. Sorry, this isn't progressive, it is bad parenting.

Yes, kids are naturally curious, but that curiosity needs to have some sort of structure, some sort of direction.

[Luminous Animal]

7. Kid's do not need structure to want to learn. In fact, structure can drive the desire

to learn right out of a kid. What kids need is access to information and materials and someone or ones, to facilitate. It is actually very time consuming and at times, difficult. As an adult, I had to relearn quite a bit of long forgotten principles.

[Odin2005]

9. "Structure" is the big thing that causes kids to HATE learning.

I learned far more on my own then I ever learned in a classroom.

[MadHound]

13. Some sort of structure is needed in order to get most kids to learn,

Even Vygotsky and Montessori didn't go out on the limb you're on.

[sense]

71. well, perhaps after all the

curiosity has been sucked out of them by the boring rote learning, all the same rate and level for all the little sheep.

[sense]

70. Absolutely!

[sense]

67. Wrong again.

Lazy? Are you nuts? You have no idea the huge commitment and amount of hours that go into unschooling. Look it up! I hope you don't have children....

[sense]

69. Answer the question!

What does unschooling have to do with Ayn Rand?

[eilen]

91. I think unschooling has a lot more to do with John Holt

than Ayn Rand.

[NashVegas]

105. It Has Tons to Do With John Taylor Gatto

Look up his "Against Schools" essay.

[Luminous Animal]

6. The article isn't bad. More like a human interest story than in depth journalism.

The title of the OP is Madhound's own uneducated fantasy.

[Odin2005]

10. Some people have dumb ideological objections to ANY homeschooling.

Of course they use the excuse that "socialization" is "necessary", but what is REALLY meant by socialization is indoctrination into being a subservient sheep. In fact, schools are horrible places for learning social skills because of the age-grading and hierarchy implied by the teacher-student relationship. The notion that homeschooled kids don't learn social skills is a lie and goes against the fact that for most kids social skills are instinctual behaviors.

[MadHound]

15. And where in the hell did I say anything about socialization?

Nice way to stick words and ideas into my mouth, I would appreciate it if you discontinued doing that in the future.

[Odin2005]

17. That post was not specifically aimed at you.

It was at the critics of homeschooling more generally. There are a lost of DUers that HATE homeschooling.

[MadHound]

21. No, just brought up in a conversation where my name was brought up,

And the person you were speaking with referred to me as "uneducated".

Yeah, right, wtf ever.

[Odin2005]

22. That's because you ARE one of the usual critics of homeschooling.

[MadHound]

25. Wait, first you said that crack wasn't aimed at me,

Now you're saying that I'm one of the usual critics of homeschooling?

Prove it! You might, might be able to come up with one post of mine concerning homeschooling, and it is going to be about the religious nature of most homeschoolers.

Other than that, you've got bupkis.

[Odin2005]

33. Maybe I'm confusing you with another poster.

But I could have swore you were going after homeschooling as if it were a part of School Deform (which I categorically OPPOSE, BTW).

:shrug:

[MadHound]

37. Ya think?

Just get back from searching the archives? Didn't find a damned thing did you?

First, don't make a crack about me in a conversation where my name comes up in an insulting manner. Second, don't deny, then one post later confirm that said crack was indeed about me. Third, don't make unsubstantiated claims about me.

Otherwise you wind up in the situation you are now, looking like a complete ass. Good night, I've got to get up in the morning and go teach, something you're apparently suspicious of.

[Odin2005]

40. Yes, I made an ass out of myself. You happy?

And I am not "deeply suspicious" of teachers.

[MadHound]

42. Happy, no,

Just like any other teacher though, I'm hoping that you learned something from this little exchange.

[Prophet 451]

81. And as one that usually HATES homeschooling...

... I would like to say that's because homeschooling is so often done BADLY. I have no problem with the principle of parents teaching their kids, I have a problem with the fact that so many of the people doing homeschooling are religious nutcases and other assorted whackos.

In fairness, I acknowledge that situations vary, many homeschooling parents do a good job and many homeschooled kids turn out fine.

[MadHound]

12. Nice crack there,

Are you a teacher, or just pretend to be one on internet chat boards?

[sense]

66. must be

[Luminous Animal]

3. Unschooling has nothing to do with Ayn Rand and everything to do with John Holt.

I unschooled my daughter and she started community college at age 13. She is now, at age 21, editing books and an online magazine, handling publicist work for an author, writing & recording music, and editing film. My sister's kids go to a democratic school based on the Sudbury method. There are no classes, no grades, no curriculum. Learning is self-directed and the students, as young as 5, have as much say in the running of the school as do the adult facilitators. Most of the kids that come out from an unschooling environment are incredibly self-directed.

[MadHound]

11. That is probably as much due to your daughter's native intelligence

That to the fact that she was unschooled.

And the fact is that Holt was a quack who believed that all kids should be educated at home, which, as we saw in the nineteenth century, succeeded very well:eyes:

Self directed is nice, a basic education in all subjects is a good thing as well, something that you don't get when most kids self direct their own education.

[Luminous Animal]

26. John Holt did not believe that all kids should be educated at home. He believed

that all children, in any setting, would benefit from self-directed learning (he didn't like the term unschooled but preferred Living), whether in the home or in a facility as do Sudbury schools.

[MadHound]

30. No, actually Holt advocated for abolishing all formal, structured education

"Education... now seems to me perhaps the most authoritarian and dangerous of all the social inventions of mankind. It is the deepest foundation of the modern slave state, in which most people feel themselves to be nothing but producers, consumers, spectators, and 'fans,' driven more and more, in all parts of their lives, by greed, envy, and fear. My concern is not to improve 'education' but to do away with it, to end the ugly and antihuman business of people-shaping and to allow and help people to shape themselves."

John Holt

He also started a newsletter, "Growing Without Schooling" and you read should read his final treatise, "Teach Your Own". Holt started out as wanting to reform public education, and in the end he wanted to abolish it completely in favor of home schooling or unschooling.

[Luminous Animal]

36. Unschooling is abolishing all formal structured education...

Thus, it can be done at home or in an unschooling facility, also known as a democratic school. And, although some homeschoolers have embraced did Hold embrace homeschoolers, most do not. Nor did Holt embrace homeschoolers who attempted to replicate the rigid, packaged curriculum, grade-based, authoritarian method of education.

[MadHound]

39. I think you're truly confused about what you're talking about

Especially if you think that unschooling is the same as a democratic school. I truly suggest you go read Holts latter work on this, Dewey's work on this, and various other references on the matter and get back to me.

But hey, who am I, with a couple of degrees in education, a degree in history, top of my class, to say. According to you, all I'm dealing with is "uneducated fantasy":eyes:

[Luminous Animal]

41. I know exactly what the Sudbury style of a democratic school is...

No teachers, no grades, no classrooms, self-directed learning initiated by the students themselves. The facilitators are in attendance to offer assistance, guidance, and resources.

That is a democratic school.

Very few homeschoolers unschool. Most have a structured schedule and many use packaged educational products tailored for homeschoolers.


I said your title is an uneducated fantasy. Which it is.

[MadHound]

45. Yet you claim that a democratic school is a form of unschooling,

It isn't.

And actually, when you look at Rand's philosophical reverence of the self reliant, self directed uber-man, no, my title is not an uneducated fantasy.

[Luminous Animal]

53. The Sudbury model of democratic schools is the definition of unschooling.

The "administration" of the school is participatory democracy. There are no uber-men. A six year old attending the school is as much a democratic participant as the 18 year old or any of the adult facilitators. There is no reverence for self-reliance. Self-directed is not the same as self-reliance. In fact, the very nature of the school implicitly encourages cooperative learning. It is an environment where every person is capable of being a teacher and where every person can be a learner.

Self-directed learning or not learning. If a kid doesn't want to do anything but play all day that is the kid's choice and right. At my sister's kids' school, one kid played basketball and napped for 2 years.
No curriculum
Access to resources and assistance (yes access and assistance are essential to unschooling)
No grades
No classrooms

[eilen]

92. I don't think I have any issue with being

self-reliant and self-directed. It is when it is taken to the extreme as Ayn Rand does, do I have an issue because her philosophy rejects altruism, charity, compassion, brotherhood and unity. She also neglects to credit the support and resources of the community in shaping an individual.

[Odin2005]

46. If I have kids I would love to be able to homeschool them.

I likely not use Unschooling alone unless the kid were highly gifted, but I would mix it in with some structured stuff, as talked about in the book "The Well-Trained Mind" by Susan Wise Bauer.

[Luminous Animal]

54. For my family, unschooling homeschooling was fantastic. We were also fortunate

to have a great group of families to share the experience with. Our homeschooling group had about 120 families and about 50 kids were regularly active in the group (field trips, science fairs, art fairs, library & museum days, and Tuesday play group). No more than 10 of us were unschoolers.

If there had been a Sudbury school in our area, I would most likely would have chosen that instead of homeschooling. Most of the benefits, in my opinion, but more freedom for me.

[joshcryer]

63. Absolutely, 100% true. I was homeschooled under CLE, it was dehumanizing to the 3rd degree.

I did occasionally go to public school, and the basic formula was the same, kid, sit down, shut up, listen to my bullshit. Eventually I got good at skimming the curriculum for answers, answering correctly, and basically finishing my "daily schooling" in a matter of 30 minutes. My mom or dad would protest that I finished so quickly, and I honestly don't remember any of that crap, but my answers were always correct. (I do not consider myself smart and I believe I have a poor memory overall.)

I really learned by reading Hardy Boys books (they helped me learn to read) and by reading encyclopedias.

[sense]

73. So you unschooled yourself

after finishing the bullshit. Good for you!

[joshcryer]

84. I think it was a coincidence, my parents just decided to let me do my thing...

...after I finished my assignments. There was really nothing else they could do short of locking me in my room, and then I'd just take the screen out of the window and slide down the gutter pipe. :P

But yeah, I think the vast, overwhelming majority of kids are truly gifted individuals if only they were allowed to experience themselves with a tiny bit of guidance, and of course had available the knowledge and tools to allow themselves to learn. I loathe to think of how I'd be if I didn't have a library card and access to books as a child. (My mom taught me to read at a young age, I believe 3-4, because I'd make her read me comics in the newspaper, I was reading Hardy Boys by 6-7! But again I don't consider myself smart.)

As Eben Moglen http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_and_Open_Software:_Paradigm_for_a_New_Intellectual_Commons">says, "The most important unchangeable reality about human societies heretofore is that every human society since the beginning, whenever that was, has wasted almost all the brains it possessed." Every time I think of that line I have a sinking feeling in my gut, because it's so true.

[sense]

86. Have you read the study

that confirms that the smarter you are the less you think you know? It's those who aren't who are so over confident in their knowledge and abilities.

We realized my son was reading when he was three and he quit asking me to read to him 5-6 hours a day.....

Eben Moglen? Going to look him up now. I'm learning to unschool myself.

[joshcryer]

88. I haven't seen that study, no.

But others say I'm stupid and I'm fine with it. Just confirms my own suspicions. :hi: :D

[eilen]

93. I learned to read early as well

and while I was not homeschooled, I learned more from my reading than I did in school. Thank goodness as the quality of education when I was growing up was deficient. I was born in 1965 so basically attended school throughout the 1970s.

[Odin2005]

95. I was reading when I was 3.

[jtuck004]

94. Wow, Hardy Boys. Hadn't thought about those books in a long time.

I can credit some of my reading skills to them as well. My parents were fundamentalist Southern Baptist, started me in public school, then to a little church-owned private school for a couple years - (not nearly as rabid right-wing as some), but our home had encyclopedias (at least a couple of different kinds), and lots and lots of other books. Mom got cancer when I was about 6 or so, my sister and I essentially raised ourselves in the years it took her to die and after. Dad moved on to another marriage, and family. Sent us to public school which was, for me, mostly a disaster - got a GED around 11th grade and went in the Navy to escape - but as a child I soon found libraries - and that was all it took. (I don't think I got rid of the religious superstition 'till I did some reading a few years later, but some of us are a little slower<G>.

I found the education I gathered on my own was far more valuable, on the whole, than the authoritarian public or private schools I went to. On occassion, such as when a teacher found out that I had not memorized multiplication tables, they drilled me in that (thank you, btw), so to say there is nothing that structure can bring which is helpful is total nonsense, as much as saying the public school is the only thing that will serve a person's learning well. (All those Republicans - they went to public schools, same teachers. And to the contrary of some thought, I think maybe they learned the real lessons of "schooling" better than others)

After a few years and other degrees I worked for an MEd from the Univ of Oklahoma, studying adult education and schooling. I used that entire time, much of it in their excellent libary, to understand the theories proposed by various scholars and thinkers, with a focus on community education and especially the theory involved with the education of Adults - the Free University movement, Danish folk schools, Paulo Freire, Myles Horton, Jerry Farber, J.K. Hart, Holt, Dewey, others.

I found that there are educators with a concern for the spirit, something our system sees as without value. There is real value in the educational approach taken by the Danish Folk School, A.S.Neill's Summerhill, and others. They are still around, and students from there are still enthusiastic about the work that has been and remains to be done.

[sense]

68. Ah, the reason for your confusion

You've been indoctrinated to the fullest extent! No wonder your mind is closed.

[sense]

72. Quit repeating that lie about John Holt.

Repeating it will not make it true, it simply undermines any point you may be trying to make. Perhaps an education about real unschooling is what you need, instead of continuing to spew the company line.

[NashVegas]

106. 19th Century Homeschooling Gave Us Thomas Edison

Among others.

Wright Bros never had more than an 8th or 10th grade education. The 19th and early 20th centuries of the US gave us tons of advances that came from individuals who desired to learn and succeed.

Today's tech titans, their modern descendents, are only interested in repackaging other peoples' accomplishments. Yeah, I think homeschoolers just may have had something right going on.

[joshcryer]

61. I like Gatto's take myself, but I admit I haven't read much Holt.

Here's an interesting essay that might get flamed for being posted: http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm

[Odin2005]

62. +1,000,000

[sense]

74. Gatto is great!

Here's a link to what public education is really about:

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[SheilaT]

14. I have had several home schooled

kids in my classrooms at a junior college. I was a student, not a teacher, I hasten to add. It seemed as though their actual academic preparation varied widely, but what I most noticed with one or two was a real deficit in being able to deal with other humans. They were all nice kids, but some of them were quite odd.

Not that all kids who come through conventional schools are well prepared for college, even junior college, and some kids will have minimal social skills not matter what.

[MadHound]

I've had several homeschooled kids in my college classes,

And the thing that I noticed most were some glaring deficiencies in their education. A lot of them had to do a lot of catch up work, material that they should have been covering in junior high and high school.

[sense]

75. I would imagine you didn't notice the

unschooled children because they weren't like the sheltered, uneducated, christian home schoolers. They seemed normal, although probably more mature and adept.

[Odin2005]

20. The plural of anecdote is not data.

[SheilaT]

60. What's you're point?

Is it suddenly not okay to present a few personal observations?

[Skittles]

89. that IS a joke, right?

the YOU'RE thing, I mean

[mzmolly]

16. There are unschoolers who have attended Harvard.

I don't think this has anything to do with Ayn Rand.

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20062288,00.html

[Odin2005]

18. No use, the anti-homeschooling brigade is out.

Using anecdotes of badly homeschooled kids as "proof".

[MadHound]

23. And where are your stats backing up your claims?

Oh, that's right, you're dealing in anecdotal evidence as well:shrug:

Do you have access to EBSCO Host, Wilson Web or other such data bases? Go do some searching.

[mzmolly]

28. I think there is more than one right way

to approach education. That's my point. That said, I wouldn't be comfortable unschooling, personally. I am also not comfortable with the notion that every child is ready to learn X at Y age.

[MadHound]

31. I think you're right,

And despite the assertions to the contrary on this thread, most teachers think the same thing. Which is why we're so incensed at things like NCLB and RTTT.

[mzmolly]

38. I agree on NCLB

and RTTT. The mentality involved in both teach to the test standards, is part of the reason many home-school.

[sense]

78. Most people are uncomfortable with

unschooling because they don't really understand it and they believe the lies being spread. Most home schoolers come to unschooling after trying to bring the public school model home and finding that it bores them and their kids to tears and realizing that there are better ways... and so much time to explore that when you're not locked into one way of doing things.

I was "forced" by the public schools to homeschool......because they failed so abjectly to educate my child or care to educate him. I came to it kicking and screaming only to quickly realize that the only real problem was that I hadn't done it sooner.

[sense]

77. You might want to step outside of your comfort

zone and do some research yourself. Open your mind.... The possibilities are endless. Or, you could just continue with your meme. Sand is endless too.

[mzmolly]

29. Seems

so. ;)

[MadHound]

19. And there are unschoolers working in convenience stores as well,

As well as the overwhelming majority of Harvard attendees who actually attended, and graduated from a formal school.

[mzmolly]

27. There are high school graduates working in convenience

stores also.

[MadHound]

32. Which all goes to prove the uselessness of anecdotal data,

Which was the point I was trying to make, thank you.

[mzmolly]

34. Your premise about homeschooling

is anecdotal.

[joshcryer]

59. The Ayn Rand comment is an OP spin.

Not even sure how it's even arrived at.

[sense]

76. There are unschoolers at most colleges.

They are generally highly sought after because they've learned to think, research and understand complex subjects as they've had the will and the time to study more in depth.

[kestrel91316]

24. Here's what my parents did with me and my sister: we went to public school

like we were supposed to, and then they bought us Encyclopedia Brittanica. We were encouraged to look up anything and everything we had any questions about. I spent most my spare time poring over entire volumes of it from the time I was 9, lol.

I also learned to read by watching my big sister learn when she was 6 and I was 4. From there it was Little Golden books and then immediately on to my parents' collection of years' worth of National Geographic.

I still think the formal structure of public school was important. It just wasn't of any value to me for learning FACTS.

[Cerridwen]

35. I've always been astounded at the way people were capable of

learning even before we had formalized school systems and mandatory schooling.

True, the wealthy hired tutors but isn't it amazing that people still managed to learn even without mandated schooling and attendance.

Unschooling, as Odin noted above, is from a progressive view that children learn differently one from the other and that trying to take all 6 year olds and teach them the same thing at the same time probably isn't best for all those 6 year olds.

In one story I read, a young girl was very interested in veterinary medicine; she was unschooled. She studied those topics required and then, when she was a teen, her father approached a local vet about her and she did a type of apprenticeship with the vet. She did well and was off to college the last I read of her.

I don't think for a moment it would work for all families and all children. We'd have to lose a lot of our prejudices first. I do like the idea that families, well, at least some families, have that choice; as do their children.

[Odin2005]

43. Exactly, everyone learns differently.

Some kids, whether because they have some learning disability or behavioral issue, do need structure, but a lot of kids don't.

[Cerridwen]

48. I thought everybody knew that. Seriously. Can't we just tell by

observing others?

[Odin2005]

51. The Feds and many school admins apparently don't.

Too many idiot bean-counters who are obsessed with "totally objective numbers", humans don't work that way.

[Cerridwen]

52. They have to know. It would be impossible for them to not know.

Here's a ferinstance.

One of the problems the military had during the draft was that drafting "everyone" meant you wound up with those who did not do well in a regimented environment. The military studied that. (If you make me I'll go find a link. Otherwise, perhaps you'll just trust me.) Anyway, our volunteer military means that those who enlist, self-select (mostly) and are more likely to do well in a regimented environment.

"Our" "experts" have to know; there's no way they can't. Which begs many, many questions.

[Odin2005]

55. Things that make you wonder...

:tinfoilhat:

[Cerridwen]

56. All my tinfoil hats are on a shelf and collecting dust.

My new one is made of a super secret substance so rare the government's never heard of it.

LOL

But, yeah, things that make you go "hmmmmmmmm"

[joshcryer]

58. I think community unschooling can work, that is, rather than one parent...

...doing the "teaching," it's a bunch of parents going about their daily lives while the children learn from them.

[sense]

79. That is what unschooling is!

It's not one parent doing the teaching. It's facilitating your child's education. Providing your children with options. Providing the resources, opportunities, ideas, etc. for your children to learn what they're interested in when they're interested in it. Exposing them to every imaginable subject in some form... a panoply of options and opportunity.

[joshcryer]

82. Yeah, but I'm saying, replace "public schools" with "public community learning centers."

Never going to happen given the reason schools exist, but yeah, one can dream.

[sense]

83. True.

Baby steps. You've got to start somewhere..... refuting the lies and party line... Unschooling when you can and spreading the word!

[joshcryer]

85. I think it'll happen eventually, it will gain support over time. Garrett Lisi has been promoting...

...a http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2007/08/garrett-lisis-inspiration.html">science hostel (more for adults but it still applies), and I think if we can build more of these environments they'll show that they're vastly superior to the capitalist school-as-work-training-facilities environment.

[sense]

87. We can hope.

[WCGreen]

44. It's the only way they can get young people to buy the bullshit the

right wing Christians spew...

An uneducated mind is an unquestioning mind...

[Odin2005]

47. And here comes the Anti-Homeschooling brigade I was talking about.

[Luminous Animal]

49. No evidence whatsoever that the young man in the article is getting a Christian based education...

In fact, I'd be 99.99% certain that an uschooled kid is not getting a Christian based education. That would require an authoritarian structure; a form of education that unschoolers reject.

[Cerridwen]

50. Not all homeschooling is r/w and/or "christian".

A lot of progressives are getting their kids out of the system the right-wing is trying to destroy.

[sense]

80. Oh, my god!

Have you read anything on the subject or you're just lumping all home schoolers in the the fundamentalists?

Home schooling is open to all. You might want to be......

[joshcryer]

57. Unschooling can be far far better than capitalist indoctrination worker farms.

A lot of teachers have gone on to support unschooling because they realize what demoralizing cruel evil things the education system can be.

I would agree however that in this particular instance literacy was clearly treated poorly. Reading, and writing, is a very regular behavior for most humans; for children it comes easy, and naturally. As you get older it becomes exponentially difficult to learn those abilities. It is unfortunate that this mother at least took the concept of unschooling a wee bit too far. It's not about "letting kids learn on their own without outside guidance." It's "let kids discover their world and learn on their own with your own input."

Otherwise if I had kids they'd be unschooled, for sure.

[Odin2005]

96. It's possible the kid as an undiagnosed learning disability like Dislexia.

And his parents are probably one of those foolish people that are dogmatically opposed to "labeling their kid" and thought he would grow out of his problems. This is a case of bad parenting, not homeschooling.

[Luminous Animal]

99. There is nothing wrong with a kid not being able to read until age 10.

I don't see one thing wrong with that kid. Unschooled kids will pick up the tools they need when their interests require those tools. And, in fact, the kid in the article did just that and his experience illustrates the philosophy behind unschooling. Supply the kids with recourses and assistance and they will will voluntarily acquire the skills necessary to follow their interests.

[NashVegas]

107. +15

Not to mention the affect it's had on society overall, by creating a child-driven culture.

[sense]

64. Fortunately

the family in this article is not typical of unschoolers. At least not the unschoolers I know. We unschool. We began as home schoolers because our local public and private schools had nothing to offer my first child. He entered school at 5 reading at a 4th grade level, doing math at a 5th grade level, yet he was forced to attend kindergarten, 1st, 2nd and 3rd grades before he was able to skip 2 grades and "graduate" from 5th grade at 8 years old. Skipping simply revealed that he'd already moved far beyond that level and his rate of learning was not going to be addressed. We quickly realized that there were so many things he was starved to learn after years of dumbing down that pulling him out of school was the only way he'd have time to learn what he needed and to heal from the "school" experience that turned him into a very angry child.

At the age of 16 he entered college having already learned to speak 5 languages. He'll graduate next year from the most academically rigorous college in the nation. We did not teach him all that he knows, we simply facilitated his education and gave him the time to pursue his interests. He chose what he wanted to learn and when and we found ways (mostly free or low cost) for him to learn at his pace....well, never at his pace... but as close as we could get. We filled the house with books and turned him loose! Yes, there were things he became interested in because we "led" him, but that's part of unschooling too. Exposing your children or yourself to new things.

It's common knowledge (supported by scientific studies) that we learn easiest and best and retain the most knowledge when we're studying something we're interested in, without artificial limits imposed. It's how we learn from the day we're born, until we enter school. Then the dumbing down begins. The restrictions on learning in school are endless. And mind numbing.

School may work for some kids, but the majority would be better served learning what they're interested in when they're interested. The family in the article is one family doing a poor job.... and to call is unschooling is just wrong.

[Odin2005]

97. Great post!

:applause:

[sense]

100. Thank you!

[sense]

101. delete.

[readmoreoften]

90. I have one friend who was unschooled by delivering his mothers 10 babies.

He's fine because he was given a computer and has a natural aptitude for code. His brother is a heroin addict and his sister went into porn, though.

[sense]

102. What about the other 7?

[InvisibleTouch]

103. I think it's tragic when a 10-year-old can't read...

...since I recall being a voracious reader much younger than that. Reading opens kids up to all kinds of delight and adventure.

I can see some merit in the "unschooling" concept, but first kids need to have basics down: a good solid foundation in reading, writing, math, history, and basic science. Probably want to add computer literacy these days too. And I think those foundations need to be taught by trained teachers. I have been a teacher (college), but I wouldn't even begin to know how to teach someone to read.

Once the basics are down, I think it's a great idea to let the kid's own passions and inclinations shape the direction of their education. How many kids have their love of learning beaten out of them by drudgery and routine?

I also don't think every child needs to be in a classroom environment with other kids, at least not in the more advanced stages of learning. For some it may be stimulating, but for others it's a huge inhibitor.

As in so many things, there's surely an ideal middle ground somewhere.

[sense]

104. What's being missed here is

that we're all individuals. We all learn at different rates and have different interests. Children do not need to "get the basics down" in any certain order or by an arbitrary timeline. My first child taught himself to read by the time he was three. My second didn't learn to read until around 8. Yes, it was a bit scary to wait for his interest to kick in, especially after the first one, but it saved an enormous amount of frustration and discord to allow him that time to grow. "Teaching" someone to read isn't difficult when they're ready and interested. We read to both of them every day and when they were ready they simply took over and never looked back. I'm sure this wouldn't work for every child and not for every family, but it's very sad that we're so indoctrinated to think that regimented education is the only way. Kids are capable of so much more than we give them credit for. Sometimes I think we just need to get out of their and our own way.

Forcing kids to spend their entire day with only their same age peers and a "one size fits all" curriculum really inhibits learning. With the size of classrooms and the current population of most of them there really is no time for questions or in depth learning. Most kids are lucky if the teacher can get the classroom under control long enough to pass out some worksheets and collect them at the end. Hours and hours are wasted every day waiting, standing in line, waiting and then waiting some more.

If you think about it, school is a completely artificial environment that you'll encounter no where else in life. Being able to interact with people of all ages, in different environments makes so much more sense. I can't find anything of value in my child spending 6-8 hours a day with 30 other 5 year olds. I would also prefer that he learn to socialize by being with and observing how all sorts of different people learn to get along, do their jobs and live their lives.

[InvisibleTouch]

108. There are, however, certain developmental windows...

...during which kids learn certain things more easily than at later times. Thus my contention that they need to be taught the basics by a qualified teacher (and that can certainly take place in a home environment rather than in a regimented classroom), in order to have the tools to pursue their own interests further from that point on. If a kid can't read, they can't follow up on the knowledge that most interests them.

[sense]

109. Yes, like for instance,

for languages. The window is only open until about 12. Most language instruction in the US begins in High School. How does that make any sense? Because reading is required for most things, children will want to learn that. Especially if they're not forced before they, individually, are ready. I could have tried to force my second child to read earlier, according to what the schools say is appropriate, but that would have been unproductive and frustrating for both of us. He reads very well without that. We did virtually no math for years with the first one, after he'd been forced to "learn" the basics over and over, endlessly through 1st, 2nd and 3rd grades when he already knew them. He stepped right into college algebra at 16 without any formal instruction. He also was not forced to write anything for the years when he had no interest in that, from 8 to 14. Because he read voraciously he wrote easily and readily when he needed to. He taught himself because he had an interest and a purpose.

Again, we're individuals and the education "experts" do not always have the agenda we think they do, nor do they always have our kids best interests in mind. I think we have been told many things about developmental windows which don't really apply quite like we once thought they did.....

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/historytour/history1.htm

[rucky]

110. Ayn Rand is the new Hitler, I see. n/t

[George Wythe]

111. This guy made all the way through college without learning to read or write.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n12_v44/ai_8010811/