I've noticed a common meme among my Republican friends.

[Serve The Servants]

Is that each and every one of them truly believes they SINGLE HANDEDLY pay out of pocket for every social program in this country and that if we didn't have all these "entitlement" programs they would be rich beyond their wildest dreams.

How many times have you heard or read the following? :

"... Just don't ask ME to pay for it..." (Go ahead, Google this one and see what comes up)

"Great, MY 'hard earned' money is now going to someone who's just going to sit on their ass all day." (Actual quote from unemployed college student friend who's parents are paying her way).

"I'm tired of MY paycheck going to people on welfare." (The math doesn't quite add up on that one.)

Hey, thanks for saving the universe all by yourselves, folks. I don't know what this country would do without you.

[The Magistrate]

1. Quite True, Sir

[DBoon]

2. Me! Me! Me! Me!

I think summarizes them

[AlanCranston]

5. yep that's exactly what most of them are like

sort of a "I worked my ass off to get where I am today and I don't need the government to take from me and give to some lazy person (code word for black/mexican)." Its a mix of fiscal conservatism and reactionary -ness all in the same sentence.

[DenverDad]

10. Ironically

I've heard conservatives use "me, me, me", to describe the liberal position. They assume that we support the funding of social programs because we (as liberals) benefit personally from them.

I agree that it summarizes them to a "tea".

[bluestate10]

105. Sure does. Every person that I know that is republican only thinks of

themselves. They are blind to the concept of a common good.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

3. I too am tired of my taxes going to welfare. Corporate welfare!

[Knight Hawk]

71. Well that is the problem....................

the middle classes,from lower to upper,are being decimated by the BOTH, the corportations and their rich upper management and the totally,chronically,healthy dead beats.And I know there are plenty of healthy dead beats in the country because I have a number of relatives and people I know well who are.

[Jackpine Radical]

108. You're no doubt right, there are deadbeats and thieves

on both ends of the scale. But the fact is, the rich get away with a lot more of the middle class's substance than the poor do. How many welfare cheats does it take to add up to one Bernie Madoff, or one Ken Lay, or one Goldman-Sachs?

And even much that goes to the poor ends up in the hands of the wealthy. Medical assistance in many states is run by private corporations, for example.

[AlbertCat]

118. I too am tired of my taxes going to welfare. Corporate welfare!

Me too!

Corporate welfare is and has always been 10 fold more expensive than personal welfare. Look at the defense dept. A welfare outfit for governemnt contractors, who then defraud us.... and get more contracts. Big oil needs help? Big Pharma needs help?

I'd rather my money go toward Richard Mapplethorpe exhibits than Exxon/ Mobil.

[ErikJ]

4. FDR style Federal Make work programs

would be better than just paying people not to work. But that might be more expensive and the RWers would go apeshit.
They would say the govt is trying to compete with the private sector even though they dont want to pay for anything like infrastrucure anyway.

[Serve The Servants]

9. I don't think you'll find anyone who supports paying someone not to work

I sure don't, but I will NEVER support throwing someone to the wolves because they have hit hard times.
The thing is Republicans don't want to pay for ANYTHING - Even if it benefits the country and themselves in the long run.
If anything good comes out of this recession, It's that I hope at least one Republican who lost their job changes their tune once they had to accept unemployment or food stamps or whatever to survive.

The way I look at it: Taxes are your membership dues for the "American Citizens Patriots Club" you don't wanna pay? Fine. Get the fuck out of the club.
That especially goes to the uber wealthy and corporations, who are the real freeloaders of our nation.

I'm rather pissed about this. Sorry if I'm ranting.

[JoeyT]

25. I'd actually support paying people not to work.

I'm all for a guaranteed minimum income if we're going to intentionally keep a percentage of the population unemployed for the sake of controlling inflation. It beats the heck out of having a permanent underclass.

They don't change their tune, they just get angrier. They'll insist they deserved their food stamps and unemployment while everyone else is just leeches.

[Serve The Servants]

26. Guaranteed Minimum Income?

Interesting and I totally get what you are saying.
Is this a new concept?

Seems like a we would need a major shift in philosophy regarding the relationship between the job sector and the economy. Maybe everyone only works 10 hours a week rotating staff per position, seasonally, yet everyone still gets paid for a full time gig. If you choose to work more you get paid more, but everyone still gets a minimum, livable salary.

I could definitely support something like that.

[JoeyT]

56. I think a few countries have one.

But it isn't new at all, just rarely talked about because it's so unlikely to happen. Thomas Paine advocated one in Agrarian Justice in 1795. Martin Luther King Jr. wrote that it was a good idea too.

It's really what we'll have to do if we're serious about the War on Poverty.

[oldhippydude]

63. actually

in 1964... a guaranteed minimum income was a platform plank on both party's platforms.. thats right 1964 the year of the Goldwater fiasco!!.. its not a new or even radical idea...

[defendandprotect]

78. Even NIXON ... repeat NIXON ... proposed something like that -- guaranteed annual wage ...

Also women's movement supported 5 hour workday which almost everyone can do --

you could have as many shifts as you required -- but always one shift = a living wage.

Unfortunately, FEAR would keep Americans from expecting or demanding programs like that.

All we would need would be for workers to strike -- leave after a 5 hour day -- but

EVERYONE TOGETHER --

No putting in extra time --


Don't bag your own graciers at the check out -- don't use the "clerkless" check out aisles!

[sulphurdunn]

87. This was first proposed

by Eugene McCarthy in 1968 when he ran in the Democratic primaries. He suggested that 2% of GDP be dedicated to maintaining a minimum standard of living beneath which no one fell unwillingly.

[defendandprotect]

89. Interesting --

[Lydia Leftcoast]

97. Nixon (yes, that Nixon) floated the idea at one time

Amazing, huh?

[bigmonkey]

116. Milton Friedman

Yes, that Milton Friedman, proposed this to Nixon. It's not a new idea, neither is it some sort of "socialist plot".

[lunatica]

34. What's wrong with guaranteeing an income to the elderly and

the handicapped or during lengthy illnesses and recuperation, and even for those who stay home to care for their children in the first five years of their lives? And while they're at it why not make sure the young get a free world class and truly competitive education so they can make a good living and contribute to the welfare of all Americans.

Yes. I'm a Social Democrat. I want my taxes to go to contributing to the welfare of the people of this country at every level. I don't want my taxes to contribute to wars and handouts that benefit a mere handful of greedy corporations and individuals. If my taxes are to be used to subsidize anyone it should be farmers and the alternate energy growth industries while they need it and the poor communities of this nation by giving them a hand in gaining the power they need to lift out of the vicious cycle of poverty. I would gladly give taxes that meant every single community has health clinics that accept virtually everyone without question.

Not everyone in this country is in their prime and healthy. That detail is routinely forgotten by those who are able bodied. In my view government's very soul purpose is to take care of the neediest among us.

[Cid_B]

40. The argument is...

... that if the government provides a guaranteed means of living then what motivation is there for a young person to save and prepare for their own retirement? Also, what happens in 30 years when the system crashes and burns and you have a whole generation of elderly folks with no savings?

[The Magistrate]

50. If People Are To Save, Sir, They Must Be Paid Enough their Living Expenses To Do So

The same people who argue against income support from the government to the aged generally also advocate slashing wages as a means to company profits, so their policies are contradictory, to the point that the contradiction exposes their true aim, the impoverishment of the population at large as a means to increase the power of a wealthy elite.

[defendandprotect]

85. Also look at the destruction of pension programs ....those who worked have often lost pensions ....

and our younger generations have to wait so long after graduation from college

for a first job -- and have been laid off so often -- that even though they have

worked ... they are not invested in pensions!

Aside from the theft of pensions by corporations which has also stolen the future

of the aging -- those who worked for Enron, for example.

Airline employees whose unions were dismantled and their pension rights along with them!

Americans have paid too little attention to the corruption of the pension programs

which came about thru corporate intimidation of regulations and de-regulation.

:)

[defendandprotect]

84. You are presuming what "work" is -- is it about doing capitalism's dirty work ....?

Or would work mainly be based on creative and humane pursuits?

Perhaps the only really legitimate work is creative work?


Medicine, certainly -- but not when people self-selected based on the desire for

a high income! Let's return to people self-selecting because they innately

understand something of the healing arts and are willing to dedicate themselves

to the public.

Teaching is certainly a creative art -- despite what we are being told about teachers

these days!

The art of governing -- where we actually seek intelligent and truly "conservative"

people among us who will work for the common good -- and preserving our environment.

On and on --

Child Care --

Arts and Sciences, when NOT used to distort and destroy true knowledge

for the benefit of corporations!

We need an "economy" based on truly enriching ourselves -- not destroying our natural

resources, nature, animal life --

and that is certainly the opposite of what we have now -- !!


PS: Re what motivation is there for a young person to save and prepare for their own retirement? Also, what happens in 30 years when the system crashes and burns and you have a whole generation of elderly folks with no savings?

Little noticed, evidently, is that our younger folks who graduated 25 years or so ago have had

such delays in even getting their first jobs -- and having been laid off so often -- that even

though they have WORKED they aren't invested in pension programs!!

You might also note the THEFT from our pension programs which was simply criminal activity --

including intimidation of our regulators who supervised these programs -- and destruction of

regulations which ensured that they would be properly funded.

Sad to say, your comment is moot -- and more Americans need to understand the real truth of

what's been happening in America with pensions -- !

[truedelphi]

92. Thanks D & P.

I remember a long time ago, this collective of poets put out these neat journals about surrealism.

And one entry read something like "The artist will be the American Indians of the Twentieth Century."

Meaning that artists and writers and actors etc would find it harder and harder to survive in the new paradigm where computer techs, and the Big Deal makers rule supreme.

And all of that has become true.

[defendandprotect]

95. Your quote: "The artist will be the American Indians of the Twentieth Century" --

points again to where we need more discussion of the ideas we follow and where they

are leading us --

My list failed to mention "builders" in general -- every creative pursuit builds something --

and certainly our artists and actors and witers help us to see ourselves and our societies --

challenging us to reenvision ourselves and our futures --

and its why they pose a fatal threat to capitalism/elites --

And it's why the right wing always want to move budgets which destroy our libraries and

liberal circulation of materials and knowledge --

it's all and always a threat to their narrow and mean-spirited and suicidal concepts!!


:)

[ejpoeta]

96. also, even those who were smart and able to save have had to use their retirement and savings

to try to live and survive and have lost everything and are lucky if they even have a house anymore which many do not. they may be living with their kids. it's a joke. no one can afford to save for retirement. they are lucky if they can make it through the week and pay the rent and the bills. we are better off than a lot of other people and we sure as hell can't afford to save for retirement. bob has a 401k and that was decimated by the crash a couple of years ago. he is at least fully vested now so if he leaves his job he can take it all with him. not sure how much he has, but i know that when he tried to apply for heap they expected him to take a loan out of his 401k so there's that too... so much for retirement i guess. a laugh riot i'd say.

[sulphurdunn]

98. Most people

will never be content with life at the bottom of the socio-economic totem pole if they believe they can climb higher. A tenant of a guaranteed minimum standard of living was also a full employment economy that pays living wages and taxes. That would address you concern about system crash.

[defendandprotect]

79. K/R for all of your post, but especially this ....

I want my taxes to go to contributing to the welfare of the people of this country at every level. I don't want my taxes to contribute to wars and handouts that benefit a mere handful of greedy corporations and individuals. If my taxes are to be used to subsidize anyone it should be farmers and the alternate energy growth industries while they need it and the poor communities of this nation by giving them a hand in gaining the power they need to lift out of the vicious cycle of poverty. I would gladly give taxes that meant every single community has health clinics that accept virtually everyone without question.


:applause:

[Maraya1969]

49. Tell them they are not good Americans because good American pay their

taxes to make America the best it can be. That is why we are the greatest country in the world. Their taxes don't go for lazy people it goes to a thriving America.

Also tell them that that is why undeveloped countries are the way they are. There is tons of money in the hands of the rulers but the don't spend it on making their countries better and helping their citizens to become better people with educations and more money. They would have beautiful streets and buildings and the people would live like we do rather than in squalor. If people in America stopped paying their taxes our country will start to look like theirs.

[Knight Hawk]

73. We are the greatest country.....................

in the world.Are you sure?We are the strongest militarily country in the world.But if you consider :education,health care,% of people not dependent on drugs(legal and illegal) ,% of people not in prison,% of children in a 2 parent familt etc.etc.etc........................NO I am sorry we are not.

[Maraya1969]

114. I thought people would know that I was speaking in their language for a point.

I don't believe all that either except paying taxes does make for nice things if it is not subject to fraud. Just like most progressives want the top 2% or so to pay a higher tax rate. It would solve a lot of problems.

I believe that part truths mixed with misleading start-up is a good way to influence people. Neuro - linguistic programming talks about how to do that.

[defendandprotect]

88. Actually, I'd prefer that we charge capitalists for their destruction -- 3 strikes and out--!!

Why are we calling this destruction by capitalism "work" --

we should redefine what work is -- healthy work -- which enriches all citizens.

And stop judging everything by the yardstick of a dollar bill!!


Arts and education enrich the lives of all of us --

Child care enriches our lives --

Education/teachers -- liberal educations which teach us how to educate ourselves lifelong --

Sciences -- when they enrich our understanding of nature and how to protect it not exploit it --

Medicine -- based on preventive care -- and not based on doctors selecting a profession which

which provide them riches. Let's get back to doctors who truly know something out plants/

drugs and the healing arts!


THE VERY CONCEPT OF WORK HAS BEEN DISTORTED BY CAPITALISM --

WHAT IS CAPITALISM'S 'WORK' IF IT IS BASED ON EXPLOITATION AND SUICIDAL DESTRUCTION -- ??

[Maraya1969]

115. See my post #114

[truth2power]

53. No need to apologize for your rant. You're correct....

We need to reapeat your phrase at every opportunity: "Taxes are your membership dues for the "American Citizens Patriots Club" you don't wanna pay? Fine. Get the fuck out of the club."
I say 'Amen' to that. I'm sick of being polite about this nonsense.

Your observation that they don't want to pay for ANYTHING reminds me of the woman waiting in line outside one of Sarah's book-signing events about a year ago. A blogger was going around interviewing people. He asked the woman what she liked most about Palin and she said that Palin would cut taxes.

Asked which taxes should be cut, the woman replied, "All of them!". That woman was possessed of no higher-order thinking skills. She had no clue what it would be like to live in the world she wished for. There would be no roads, courts, parks, libraries - strike that one; these people obviously don't avail themselves of such facilities - we'd sicken and die from being exposed to filthy water and food products, and on and on.

I just can't stand to be around these imbeciles anymore. They are so bone-stupid it just beggars the imagination.

[L0oniX]

54. They've paid farmers not to grow certain crops.

[Lorien]

55. I support paying the disabled, mentally ill and mothers on maternity leave not to work

but I personally would never want to have to take welfare. I'm a workaholic and I have anxiety attacks when I don't have enough work to do.

The rest I agree with completely, though. Those who have benefited from the system the most should be patriotic and support their Country by paying the most in taxes. If it's patriotic to "give your life for your Country" by serving in the military, then it's also patriotic to give your excess cash (and the uber rich have a lot of it) to your Nation as well. Amazing how we value money over lives in this Country, though.

[defendandprotect]

77. I certainly would support women with children and no child care ...

Why not support women to raise children?

And why should the poor and near poor pay taxes?

That "honor" was something pushed by the right wing even in the Ike years --

the idea that families with very little -- living in near poverty -- should pay

higher taxes for the honor of it all!

Where are we charging the wealthy for the use of our natural resources?

Rather we are subsidizing their exploitation of nature and natural resources --

We need to charge corporations not only for using our airwaves -- but for the

destruction of the environment via their capitalistic ventures -- what is clean air worth?

And upon this destruction, capitalists should have been put out of business!

What of the impact of capitalism on the health of the population and animal life?

Any sadly we permitted this destruction to go on until we have now near lost our ability

to survive on this planet!

Destruction of nature is simply destruction of ourselves!!


Capitalism is over -- we just haven't buried it yet --

[blondeatlast]

6. Absolutely. nt

[lolly]

7. The flip side of this

These same people are mysteriously blind to all the benefits they get from taxpayers' money.

Roads, safe food, police protection, public health protection, building inspection, etc.

These things are all "just there."

[ismnotwasm]

8. "MY Tax dollars"

Prefaces so much of what they say, and as you point out, facts are not on their side.

I work at a big hospital as an RN, and I hear it from other health care workers, usually Republican or right leaning--not big picture folk no, a type of selfishness infests them. I often hear a very judgmental "This is what my tax dollars pay for" regarding a certain type of patient ie A junkie with abscesses and resistant infection, a very ill, but undocumented worker, a chronic smoker with vascular disease, an alcoholic, a complex, but uninsured patient, the homeless, the mentally ill who end up on a med/surg unit and are difficult to deal with.

Rather than see these things as reflective of and the responsibility of our society, judgmental and negative language is used, NOT productive in my view. It doesn't help, nor does it provide ideas for solutions that are humane and sensible.

Unfortunately it seems typical of the rw mind set.

(In case you're wondering, no they don't get away with it in front of me, although I have to tone my response down a bit.)

[Mariana]

11. Ask them to calculate what percentage of their gross income

they ACTUALLY PAY in Federal Income Tax. For most of them, when they say "My taxes are too high," that's the one they're talking about. And they always make out like they pay their highest marginal rate on ALL their income from penny one. "If I didn't have to pay XX% of everything I earn to Uncle Sam, right off the top..." they say. They forget about all their exemptions, deductions, adjustments, credits, and the fact that they don't pay the higher marginal rates on all their taxable income, only that over the threshold.

Anyway, I challenged my dad to do this after he complained for the millionth time over how "My (income) taxes are too high." I said, "Go dig out your last 1040, Dad. You don't have to tell me what you made, I just want you to divide the actual tax you paid by your TOTAL income, multiply by 100, and tell me what that number is." Well, he refused to do it. I hope it was because he DOES know about what that number is, and he was embarrassed to be caught griping about such a small tax burden. I don't know for sure, but I bet anything that for him, it's less than 10% - maybe a lot less.

[FarLeftFist]

12. UNITED We Stand, DIVIDED We Fall, motherfuckers.

[Zoeisright]

13. Yep, greedy, short-sighted, stupid, mean, and judgmental.

Plus totally ignorant of history, how this country was built, and how they have been helped every step of their selfish little lives by the GOVERNMENT and OTHER PEOPLE.

I hate every fucking one of them.

[customerserviceguy]

14. Reminds me of an episode of "All in the Family"

where Archie is trapped in an elevator with an obviously wealthy lawyer played by Roscoe Lee Browne. When Archie makes a borderline racist comment about being a taxpayer, Browne just turns to him and says "I hand out more in tips than you pay in taxes."

[mzmolly]

16. I'm enjoying the reruns a great deal. Archie sounds so much like "tea baggers"

I can't stand it! :hi:

[customerserviceguy]

66. It's the same personality

just a different name. Back in "Archie's" day, Nixon called them 'The Silent Majority'. Ten years later, they were called 'Reagan Democrats'. Ten years after that, they were called 'Dittoheads'.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[NewJeffCT]

81. and, before that

they were dixiecrats or birchers (in fact, wasn't one of the leaders of the original birchers Papa Koch?)

[mzmolly]

15. I wish I didn't have to fund wars/state sanctioned murder.

But, I don't have a choice, do I? F them and their I don't want to pay to sustain the lives of the poor, in spite of being "pro-life," stance.

[Lorien]

52. +1 nt.

[defendandprotect]

90. +1 --

[underseasurveyor]

17. My older brothers favorite meme is...

"IT'S MY MONEY DAMNIT!"

But then he also thinks he's entitled to our parents money and he also likes to run up huge debts and has claimed bankruptcy twice as if it were no big deal.
Needless to say we don't speak a whole lot.

[Serve The Servants]

19. Just a hunch

but is he a golfer?

Just humor me...

[underseasurveyor]

20. No he isnt a golfer

He's a "coach" for Realtors.

Someday (maybe sooner than he thinls) he'll be living in a van by the river :rofl:

[Serve The Servants]

22. Oh, OK

Your Bro sounds like my Cousin. He promotes the virtues of "Living within your means" but he has almost gone broke keeping up with the joneses. His favorite thing to do is blow his money on anything Golf related. I was just trying to find out if that was unique.

[underseasurveyor]

24. He definitely lives beyond his means

Though from about the mid nineties to about 2006 he was making 25-30 grand a month. Yes per month. He saved nothing, invested nothing and has nothing. Lost their house last year and now can barely pay his rent. His 'must haves' are his leased high-end BMW's and he and his wife just love those expensive self improvement /motivational seminars.

Weird :eyes: My sister and I see no self improvement and his only motivation seems to be other peoples money. But other peoples money is running out. Sucks to be him. His karma has finally caught up to him.

And then there's his newest wife of 4 years.... she left her husband for my brother thinking that he was her easy street meal ticket. Someone at the office overhead her on the phone saying that to her mother. Boy wasn't she surprised:rofl:

It's kinda fun to watch Republicans implode. I do feel bad and even worried for their kids though.

[JackInGreen]

62. You should be

calling him out, loudly, every time he opens his mouth about it.
Eventually he'll either stop, or fight it, and worsen his case.

[Odin2005]

18. It's all about THEM, the rest of us could rot all they care.

[underseasurveyor]

21. Boy that is the truth!

[Serve The Servants]

23. Yup.

If you gave one of them a complete tax exemption for life, do you think that person would still bitch about the system? Nope. They got their break sooooo "So long suckers"!

[JHB]

38. Actually, the ones I know WOULD continue to yammer.

It would be the way they show how selfless and principled they are: "I'm not changing my tune just because it would benefit me!"

[Scuba]

27. Ask them why they think it's OK that their tax dollars go to enrich...

...already-wealthy foreigners. Since companies like GE and Exxon/Mobil get tax rebates, and since they are traded on international markets (and international traders trade on US markets) that means the Republicans voted again to tax working Americans and give those dollars to wealthy foreign owners.

Why would they be OK with aid to wealthy foreigners but not to poor Americans.

[Patiod]

46. No! All of those dividends go to widows and orphans!

A mixed-up* friend told us that last night. She claims (and I've heard this before) that companies can't negotiate on mortgages because the proceeds from the original mortgage have been promised to "widows and orphans" who depend on the cash flow.

I asked how much cash flow her company and others are getting from all the foreclosed houses they can't sell. **crickets** She admitted that was a good point. I've heard from other people that Exxon's huge profits are "good for all the widows and orphans who depend on that stock for their only income".

Really? Widows and orphans are the primary beneficiaries of Exxon, GE, and the mortgage-holding banks? Really?

*Mixed up = Democratic at the core, but has to read, digest and discuss the WSJ every day for work

[Scuba]

47. I've hear that too. I don't think many buy it when faced with facts. n/t

[NICO9000]

99. OK, my head just exploded!

Widows and orphans? It is the Depression all over again! What's next? The return of Snidely Whiplash?

:rofl:

[JHB]

28. Thank decades of Bait-and-Switch statistics and propaganda

Back in the '80s when "welfare reform" was one of the bongo drums the Republicans beat endlessly, they'd produce huge, scary numbers about how much of your tax dollars were going to "entitlements", to make it look like half the Federal budget went to able-bodied do-nothings living the high life on welfare checks and food stamps...the whole "welfare queen" bit.

Except when you looked at their numbers, "entitlements" included Social Security and Medicare, and if you just included food stamps, WIC, housing assistance, and other aid programs, the slice was actually pretty small. But a little sliver on a pie chart wouldn't get people up in arms.

[KG]

29. yep, and it ALL goes to 'welfare'. roads, bridges, police, military, etc, apparently just magically

appear out of thin air.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mwb970]

37. I too had to stop and think about the idea of "republican friends".

I don't have any myself. Life is too short to spend any of it with right-wingers.

[totodeinhere]

111. I don't have a litmus test for friendship. If I make friends with someone I don't stop first and ask

them about their ideological leanings. Wouldn't it be boring if all of our friends marched in lockstep to one narrow ideology? Some of my friends are to my right, some are to my left, and some are on about par with me. It makes things interesting.

[mwb970]

119. What do you do when your new friend rants about "ObamaCare" and Kenya?

Nod your head and pretend to agree? Argue back? I don't want to do either. Life is too short.

[totodeinhere]

120. Life may be short but I try to find the time to discuss important issues with anyone.

If I can find time to participate at DU, I should be able to find enough time to debate health care with a friend.

[mwb970]

121. Let me know how that goes.

In my experience, once someone says "ObamaCare", they are beyond reach and any ensuing "debate" is frustrating and one-sided. Of course, your mileage may vary!

:)

[Patiod]

48. The Tea Party is easy to avoid. The casual idiots are harder.

I've cut off the brain-dead Fox-spouting Tea Baggers in my life where I can.

But some of my good friends are uninformed on politics, and parrot right wing nonsense they hear from others. But these folks aren't beyond hope.

I've been able to expose them to different ideas - one woman in my book club was born with the proverbial silver spoon, and though anyone who wasn't rich just wasn't working hard enough. I slid some subversive material into our reading list ("Nickled and Dimed" "A Hope in the Unseen") and was able to expose her to a completely unfamiliar world (her husband losing his business did the rest of the work).

Other friends work in industries where they're surrounded by nothing but right wing propaganda all the time, and I feel it's helpful to challenge these ideas and remind them that not everyone thinks that way.

We can talk in the echo chamber or we can get out there and present an alternative to the Republican Noise Machine. (although God Bless the echo chamber, because we all need it to retreat, recharge and refresh).

[Mrsadkins9399]

70. One of the stylists at the salon I go to is a hard core republican

I don't have a problem if you are a republican per se...I don't talk politics with her because she is a birther-I don't have time for those idiots plus she is a fundie too.

My stylist is a republican too but I don't discuss politics with her.

[Patiod]

74. Thank God for my gay-activist hair stylist!!!

He and I talk politics all the time. He has referred to his partner as "my husband" for over 20 years, and was the first to open my mind to the concept of gay marriage. He then got married for real in Canada, and then in Vermont when it became available.

I tried a local salon, the stylist kept making insinuations about how she never went into the city because she was afraid of "those people" who had "ruined everything". First and last appointment there. Worth schlepping further away to my regular guy.

I'll work to open the minds of people who just haven't been exposed to anything else, but it's not worth it with the hard-core stupid.

[The Wizard]

31. Their positions are premised on a false comparison.

They believe that wealthy people worked hard for their money and that poor people either don't work or are lazy. They've bought the pie in the sky myth that worked to keep slaves in chains. They like to play the victim and point at the less fortunate as the cause of their own troubles.
Anyone believing Paris Hilton got rich through hard work must be on dope. Ask them how many jobs Paris Hilton created with her tax cuts.
We've been through 10 years of the Bush tax structure and still no jobs. Failed concepts are failed concepts. Trickle down economics was going to put a chicken in every pot and two cars in every garage, at least according to Herbert Hoover. We all know how that worked out.
It took Roosevelt's social programs to save capitalism.

[lunatica]

32. All their failings are the fault of, you guessed it, welfare queens

Good politics, the kind that work, are constructs of scapegoats and wedge issues. Blame a group or groups of people for all the woes and use said groups for little more than personal political gain. Historically proven to yield results every time.

[baldguy]

33. Selfish martyrdom

They don't get that the taxes they pay is "our" money not "their" money. It's the price we pay for civilization.

[lunatica]

35. Yeah, victimhood plays well for them

[mwb970]

36. Sadly, republicans are unable to feel empathy for others.

Hence the "I've got mine, screw you!" attitude you have identified. Interestingly, they are also defiantly unwilling to use logic or rationality, and harbor fear and hate for those of us who do.

So, let's see. No empathy, no intellect. But aren't these the very two factors that set humans apart from the animals?

:shrug:

[kentuck]

39. Since we have to borrow for the taxcuts and the wars....

that is out of their pocket also. Taxcuts do not pay for themselves, no matter what they think. They add to the deficit and the debt. Just as does the military spending. Social Security pays for itself. I think they are confused about what comes out of their pockets?

[XanaDUer]

41. Here's another post on the same topic, by me, on Republicans

To me, many sociopaths tend to drift rightward, and , again, imo, they tend to never see the long-term consequences of things until it effects them. So, to a Republican, unlike a normal person, the idea that deregulation, outsourcing jobs, etc might effect them never dawns on them until it actually does happen to them.

Then, like the whining, empty-headed pathetic jerks they are, they start getting upset, wanting someone to DO SOMETHING about this, and flailing around for some scapegoat to target for a problem they caused themselves and others due to their lack of ability to plan anything or see past their own noses.

:)

[Hubert Flottz]

42. There's your problem...

"Republican friends"...If they're republicans they're not very good "Friends"

[Tennessee Gal]

43. Whatever money they have they did not "earn" it on their own.

"It's my money; I earned it!" How many times have we heard that one? The next time you hear it, try this simple question: Did you earn it on your own? Can anyone earn a penny without the printing of our currency, public roads, rural electrification, government subsidized telephone wiring, satellite communications, police protection, military protection, the criminal justice system, fire and paramedic protection, an educated and immunized workforce, protection against plagues, public-funded loans, protection from business fraud and unfair business practices, the protection of patents and copyrights, research and development, collection and analysis of data, preventative economic policies by the Federal Reserve Board, the Federal Energy Management Agency, public libraries, agricultural and biological services, the National Weather Service, and public job training? Actually, we seem to be getting quite a return for our tax dollars.

[HughBeaumont]

44. Not a single ass ONE of them gets the concept of "pooling" . . .

. . . which is likely why they're so against universal health care.

"I PAY for MY insurance! MY money goes to MY insurance plan!! Why should MY MONEY go to pay for SOMEONE ELSE'S Health Insurance???"

Er, dumbass? It already DOES. How do they think any kind of insurance works? They don't get that their specific money goes into a pool with millions of others; it doesn't go into the Joe SportsBar Insurance Specific For The Slightly Inept. Same with their 401(k). You can tweak it to buy company stock or a growth fund specific to needs and economic climate, but the results remain the same - you aren't an island, Republiclown.

You're participating in a collective (shudder) effort, even though your bait-and-switch newscasters and equally idiotic congressional representatives (likely the same ones who deny global warming and think the earth is 6000 years old) have been telling you for years that you, indeed, are an island and the have-too-littles are the source of all problems in 'Murca.

Simply stunning, they are.

[Cid_B]

72. The difference... so I hear...

... is that one is voluntary and one is not. They share the insurance pool with others who have paid into that pool via terms of an agreed upon contract. The way they see it is that they are paying for their insurance and 401Ks but the benefits are being doled out to those who have not contributed.

[archiemo]

45. I have one of those "friends" too! Verbatim!

[Lorien]

51. Yep, I've heard that. They also think that 90% of our taxes go to social welfare programs

and when you show them dozens of charts that show that the bulk of our spending goes to the military they either don't believe it or say nothing at all.

[L0oniX]

57. Republican and friends is an oxymoron.

[Initech]

58. Yup - it's the "I've got mine so fuck you" crowd at work.

[femrap]

59. They've been saying this for

decades. I guess in bad economic times, they say it louder and more often.

[Populist_Prole]

60. Excellent post Serve the Server. I've been hearing that stuff long before the 'bagger movement

I can agree it's a common meme. As I become more and more disgusted with the GOP and the right in general, it's putting a strain on my relations with friends/relatives/co-workers who are just as you described. We just don't talk to each other all that much anymore, out of a growing mutual disrespect. It's kind of sad really, and it's really picked up in the past year or so. Some of them I can actually say I hate now....

It's pure selfishness, some being quite unabashed about it. Even as they're feeling the effects of their corporate/libertarianism utopia, some just stick with the program, so to speak, in the name of ideological purity.

[W T F]

61. I just throw it back at them.........

Why should I have to have my hard earned money spent on promoting your religion? (Ten Commandments posted on public property)
Why should I have to have my hard earned money spent on a war that I don't support?
Why should I have to have my hard earned money spent on corporate welfare (TARP)
My favorite one right now
Why shroud I have to have my hard earned money spent on giving tax cuts to Millionaires and Billionaires?

[JazzQuipster]

64. Another common theme...

...among teabaggers is that the taxes that the government collects from them is either "confiscated" or "stolen" from them. I guess all of the government services that they enjoy just magically appears.

[Bigmack]

67. At every opportunity I call them "tax whiners"..

and point out that Americans paid their lowest level of taxes last year since the 1950's.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-05-10-taxes_N.htm

[NewJeffCT]

83. I've seen this BMW wagon around town a few times where I live

with a bumper sticker that says something about against taxes & socialism because this is America where we "earn it"

One of these days, I'm going to slide a note under her windshield wiper and tell her to "get the F off my taxpayer funded roads and stop driving a car that is built to high government-required safety standards"

[aka-chmeee]

65. Was watching the news this AM..

about the huge wild fires in AZ. Showed evacuated citizens and while you just HAVE to feel for their plight; when they start clamoring for more tanker planes, etc. to fight the fire, it's impossible not to imagine these same folks complaining about their tax dollars and socialism. How's that self-sufficiency thingy workin' for ya now?

[Hamlette]

68. "I'll pay my taxes for people in need. You pay for corporations on welfare and war."

That's what I say. "Let's make a deal. My taxes won't go to help GE cheat on their taxes or subsidize oil companies so they can make billions in profits or wars that kill people. And you won't pay taxes to help disabled people or children since no tax dollars go to able bodied people who won't work. Which I also agree with." This after an argument with a woman waiting in line in Nordstrom's many years ago. She insisted 20% of her tax dollars go to people on welfare. I told her I work for the welfare office and the number is under 2%. She went nuts. Calling me a liar and saying I was what was wrong with this country (for correcting her with facts?) You can't talk to them as long as Rush and Fox are around to support their preconceived notions about the world and how victimized they are by liberals. If Fox and Rush started saying the world was flat, 27% or Americans would believe them.

[Mrsadkins9399]

69. and the ironic thing is, if something happens to them

they will be the first in line for the "government handouts".

[Capitalocracy]

75. Maybe we should make social programs optional.

You don't want to pay taxes? Great, but you can never have medicare, food stamps, police and fire department will not respond to you, and you have to pay a fee for every road you drive on.

[defendandprotect]

76. As I recall Welfare in the budget, it was something like .015% ....

and with the Social Security funds in the budget -- which they shouldn't be --

it's impossible to see what MIC is really costing us all!

What is really costing us all is failing infrastructure --

corporate ownership of government and its agencies --

destruction of the environment and planet -- what's a planet worth, anyway?

and how about subsidies for oil industry?

and subsidies for organized patriarchal religion's "faith-based" organizations?

[DesertFlower]

80. K&R. nt

[DesertFlower]

82. self delete.

[jwirr]

86. Very rethug of them. When I was raising my family, including a severely

disabled daughter on welfare my fundie rich relatives used to visit occasionally just to see that I was not wasting their money! They would stay for a while and see the girls were well raised and then my disabled daughter would have a seizure. They would look sheepish and say "We do not like welfare but you know you should get it". I always wanted to kick them in the ass - I was no better than any of the other "welfare mothers" that I knew.

They truly are a bunch of idiots. Greed owns them.

[DesertFlower]

91. my friend is a conservative republican. when

she became disabled with chronic fatigue syndrome i urged her to apply for social security disability. she did and still thanks me for my advice. she's been collecting for almost 20 years. also got her medicare.

[AtomicKitten]

93. Most GOP don't believe in New Testament ideals of caring for the poor.

They are, however, down with the Old Testament fire and brimstone "me first or I'll fuck up your shit" school of thought.

[Enthusiast]

94. You are exactly right on this.

It's more of the Ayn Rand pathogen.

[larwdem]

100. sick

I got sick this winter. gould not work any more so I quit.
I was to stupid to sign up for FMLA and when I went back.
I had no job. I needed help but got none. We need more 
programs for the sick and poor. I just hope this happens
to them fuckers.             
 

[truedelphi]

101. Even Bill Maher, who thinks he is explaining it really well,

Is mistaken.

He keeps displaying this stupid plate of food, with part of it being macaroni and cheese, and part of it being fried chicken and part of it being a veggie combo, (IIRC) and one of those three parts is supposed to represent the huge burden that Social Security represents.

What he doesn't get is that IT IS A GULDARN SEPERATE FUND! The money is paid in and is a totally separate fund,and it has a two trillion dollars plus surplus.

Period.

I keep wishing that one his guests would give him Holy Hell for this mischarecterization.

[reACTIONary]

102. A Particularly Nasty Variant is the "Ayn Rand Objectivist"

A particularly nasty variant of this are the "Objectivist" followers of Ayn Rand. Generally speaking, they are too young to have done anything productive in life that even comes close to paying back the public investment in their education and yet they are convinced that they are part of a small number of "supermen" who are largely responsible for anything and everything that is of any value in the world. They gripe about all those "parasites" who "depend on" them and their fellow supermen.

The proper response is, fine, Atlas, go ahead and shrug. Head out to the desert and live in a gulch away from all the bothersome parasites. You don't need us, and we don't need you.

[lib2DaBone]

103. This is the way.. convince the public to vote against their own best interest....

Sarah Palin Voters and Fox News zealots will never stop to think...

If we spend $500 million per day on useless wars in Afgahnistan... how can a paltry few bucks a day spent on food stamps make any difference?

What we spend in ONE DAY on nation building and war to benefit the Corporations... would provide a decent life for a year for the entire American Public.

[southernyankeebelle]

104. Well you just decribed the difference between a republican and a

democrat. A democrat wants to help lift all boats that way everyone benefits, while the republicans only know me, me, me and mine. They don't remember history why these programs came about in the first place. Really very sad that they are will to receive the bennies from some of these programs but like most republican that don't want democrats receive them. Of course we all contribute to them. Funny how many of these people are senior citizens (of my generation). They use to say that generation is selfish and only thinks of themselves. I am not like that but sadly it is true.

[rury]

106. I know one in the Army who bitches about taxes and socialized medicine

Really....!
she shut up when I reminded her that her salary and benefits are courtesy of taxpayers.
Then she said she pays her own salary...lol!
I reminded her again that she is not producing or manufacturing anything to "earn" her salary...it comes from the taxpayer .
She finally sighed and gave up.
It was quite comical actually!:rofl:

[RoccoR5955]

107. Tell them that more than half of that pays for the military and

CORPORATE welfare!

[brewens]

109. I had diversity training at a pretty progressive company a couple

years ago. They had us group up and play a Jeopardy style game. One question was which group has the most people on welfare? White, black or hispanic? I of course said white people and it's not even close. The rest of my group overruled me and we lost the points for that one. I can't remember which answer they picked.

Another one we blew was what percentage of the population was gay. I told them that even if you don't believe it, the accepted number is 10%. At least that is what you will hear quoted the most. Again they don't listen to me and we lose.

We also blow a question on what percentage of the population is white, black and hispanic. They thought we had way more black and hispanic people.

I was a new guy at the time and don't work at out HQ with any of the people in my groups but still! How could the miss the welfare one? That was in Spokane, Wa and we don't even have a huge minority population but plenty of poor people. Only in agricultural areas on the whole northwest you MIGHT find a higher percentage of black or hispanic people on public assistance but I'd still bet they are outnumbered by poor white people.

Those misconceptions don't help with racist type Republicans that think they pay too much to help poor people out. They better be careful what they ask for. Cutting off too many uneducated, lower income white people may bite them in the ass! They rely on their votes.

[totodeinhere]

112. If whites are the group that have the most on welfare, why don't we have

affirmative action for whites? Why do blacks need affirmative action when there are fewer of them on welfare than whites? It seems like we have it backwards.

OK, now let me answer my own question. While it is true that in gross numbers there are more whites on welfare, as a percentage there are more blacks on welfare.

And of course the reason for that is because the unemployment rate for blacks is higher than whites, and per capita income for blacks is lower than whites. While there have been some improvements, racism is still alive and well in this country.

edited for typo

[liberal N proud]

110. Must be the latest memo from headquarters

They all operate of a single play book distributed by the GOP headquarters.

[Deep13]

113. Apparently forgetting that they would benefit from equitable taxes for the rich.

I have heard it over and over again too.

[undertakerlives]

117. How many of these morons do you think were on welfare at one point

in their decrepit lives?

Also, I'm sure if their tax dollars were going to fund a golden statue of Ronald Reagan to be placed in front of every jail -- I mean -- school in the US, they wouldn't complain.