Amish mother dies after treating burns with home remedy

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Amish mother dies after treating burns with home remedy

I can appreciate their rejection of modern culture, but sometimes, when things have gone horribly wrong, you have to bend just a little.

PITTSBURGH | Thu Jun 2, 2011 6:10pm EDT

PITTSBURGH (Reuters) - A severely burned Amish woman, treated with home remedies for two days before her family called 911, died of the infected burns, a county coroner said on Thursday.

Ella Miller, 32, was heating water for laundry over a wood fire at her family's house in western Pennsylvania when her clothes caught fire as she was adding kerosene to the blaze, a report by Indiana County Coroner Michael Baker said, according to a spokeswoman.

After the accident in Smicksburg on Monday morning, Miller -- a mother of six children, ages 1 to 14 -- asked friends and family to treat her injuries at home, the report said. They applied home remedies before calling 911 on Wednesday morning.

An ambulance arrived, but paramedics realized they would be unable to revive her and called the coroner's office, the report said. Miller's body was taken to a hospital, where doctors performed an exam and X-rays but not an autopsy as foul play was not suspected.

[Brickbat]

1. I think the problem started with "adding kerosene to the blaze." Sheesh.

[hobbit709]

4. I learned how not to FOOMP myself at an early age.

[meow mix]

14. i watched someone do this once

shortly before chasing him down and putting the fire out :wow:

[snooper2]

2. If you want to live and party like it's 1799

you should expect the same life expectancy

[catgirl]

7. How compassionate of you

:-(

[WatsonT]

10. She made her choice

no one kept her there.

Yes, choices do have consequences.

[kestrel91316]

33. A choice to live without electricity and telephones inside ones home does not equal a choice to

die a horrible, painful death.

Are you always this hateful and inclined to blame victims?? Seriously???

Painful burns might affect one's thinking processes. And very deep burns can be less painful than those more superficial, which YOU probably don't know any more than she did.

Disgusting attitude.

[Very_Boring_Name]

106. A choice to use "home remedies" instead of seeking real medical care IS

a choice to die a horrible, painful death. And guess what, if one of her children had been burned instead of her, they still would have tried the home remedy bullshit and the kid would have died. So dont give me that "blah blah blah stop blaming the victim" crap.

[float upstream]

88. That really doesn't make much sense...

If your friend's child dies getting electrocuted, will you be as callous about their "choice?"

[kestrel91316]

32. Shows your complete and utter ignorance of things Amish.

They eschew SELECT technology, not ALL technology.

Hateful blame-the-victim mentality typical of a RWer.

[snooper2]

67. and apparently doctors

[treestar]

92. what blame the victim?

This person made a choice. had she called 911 right away it would have turned out differently.

Sometimes the "victim" is indeed to blame. Merely because one suffers don't not always make it someone else's fault.

[Marrah_G]

3. So sad for her family

[KurtNYC]

5. the headline makes it seem like the home remedy killed her

when it seems it was either the LACK of a more effective treatment or, that the burns were severe enough that she would have died regardless of which treatment(s) were used.

This seems like a commercialist society, that pushes Lipitor on everyone with a bloodstream, is looking down it's collective nose at the Amish.

[Recursion]

6. Well, the missing question is "would she be alive had she gone straight to the hospital?"

Burns are notoriously tricky for scientific medicine, too.

[LiberalLoner]

8. Exactly, I suspect she would have died either way. And, another factor is not

so much rejection of modern medicine (they will go if they think they need the medicine) but the fact that so many Amish are just barely getting by with the farming. I mean they have large families, try to save enough so their children can buy some farmland too, and they generally are very concerned with being as thrifty as possible and pinching every penny.

I know this because although I am not Amish myself, my mother's side of the family came from the Amish.

Anyway I think what it was is the Mom was thinking, I don't want to cost my family and community thousands of dollars (they don't do the insurance thing) so let's see if I can treat this at home.

You see the same factor at work with people who are the working poor, who don't have health benefits. They don't go in for that cancer screening etc. because they can't afford to. And then the cancer progresses to where it's not treatable and they die.

I hate that our country doesn't have universal, single-payer healthcare for all. I hate it so much.

[Mimosa]

42. MD pal says they are letting people out of hospitals to avoid MRSA infections

LiberalLoner, I agree with you:

"I hate that our country doesn't have universal, single-payer healthcare for all. I hate it so much. "

[LisaL]

84. Plenty of people with severe burns survive with modern care.

I presume, with home remedies-not so much.
:eyes:

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

99. I wonder if the Amish would accept help if there was healthcare for all.

I hate that our country doesn't have universal, single-payer healthcare for all. I hate it so much.

[Lance_Boyle]

22. it was the choice of home remedy over medical care that killed her.

I don't know where you get the idea that the she would have died anyway with appropriate medical care.

And yeah, when someone's religious delusions *cause* his or her painful suicide, I'm gonna look down my nose at those delusions.

[kick-ass-bob]

23. Is it really that different from a DNR or a refusal of treatment?

Just to another level?

The Amish don't want to interact with the "modern" world. You do. You call for an ambulance. She doesn't. Why look down on a group because they don't have the same belief structure as you? There was no delusion. They choose to live without the "comforts" of the modern world.

[Lance_Boyle]

24. Yes. A DNR must be established when one is of sound mind.

Whether or not we will ever agree on whether the religiously deluded can *ever* be of sound mind, she had no DNR established. At least she didn't condemn one of her children to a horrible death by infected burns, but it's not like the religiously delusional are beyond that reprehensible behavior, either.

The Amish are a cult. Those who are born into it find it very difficult to escape, despite the trappings of free choice. They are brainwashed no less than the Jonestown folks or the self-mutilating comet-chasers. There are documentaries about how difficult it is to escape the cult when one so chooses. Why is it that the Amish are deserving of such respect for their wackadoodle cult nonsense, but the Scientologists are almost universally scorned for it outside of their own circle? You can romanticize them all you want, but they are a cult, and their beliefs, as shown once again, can be deadly.

[kick-ass-bob]

26. Actually, the Amish are 100% NOT a cult.

How can I say this? Because a cult does not let people go. The Amish do. There are multitudes of ex-Amish people who have decided to leave and live in a normal society. At a certain age, they decide which way they want to go. There is no cult alive (or dead) that can claim this. And there are documentaries about how people leave and it is not so difficult.

Scientology recruits people to fill their ranks, the Amish want nothing to do with those outside their realm. Yes they believe things that I do not, but they are not out to change others to believe what they believe. And who exactly leads this cult? They usually have a leader. Maybe that's why there isn't such an outcry for those "poor brainwashed 'wackadoodle' Amish" - because they are nothing alike.

But, you will just argue some other inane point to make yourself believe that you are right. So have at it, because I won't be listening to the rambling.

[Mosby]

28. cult, sect whatever

The Amish are parasitic, they owe their ENTIRE existence to the US who are willing to die to protect their right of religion, something they themselves are not willing to do.

[kestrel91316]

37. They are anything but parasitic. They refuse to collect Social Security

or use Medicare or receive food stamps. They don't buy insurance. They don't use the public schools in spite of paying for them with their property taxes. And no one has died to protect their freedom of religion in this country - that freedom is IN THE CONSTITUTION and this nation has never been overrun nor threatened in any way with such. OTOH, various and sundry people and agencies over the years have tried to deny them that freedom of religion through the COURTS and they have always lost in the end.

The Amish produce far more in the way of tax revenue for this country than they have EVER received or will receive.

And WHEN did constitutional rights become dependent upon serving in the military???? We don't have two classes of people here: one with constitutional rights by virtue of having served in the military in wars and the other with no rights because they haven't. Though I am quite sure our secret christofascist contingent here wishes we did.

The Bill of Rights is either for ALL of us or for NONE of us, and we do NOT have compulsary military service, dipshit.

[madokie]

41. I don't think the amish pay any taxes

they sure don't around here. If you hire them to do a job for you they take the check to the church and the church deposits it and then give them 90 percent. No taxes are paid on anything they buy. they use tractors as cars and they don't pay road taxes on the fuel nor on the tires nor on the oil. The amish around here pay no taxes period.

[kestrel91316]

45. The Amish pay income taxes just like the rest of us. And they pay

property taxes. And sales taxes. I have never heard anything about them running their income through the church. They don't have a church bank account to run it through. They use their homes as churches and have no paid employees because their bishops are unpaid.

How does such a large group of prosperous farmers escape the watchful eyes of the IRS, lol? How to they get away with not paying property tax and sales tax? I think you listen to too much malicious gossip.

I am surprised at you, of all people, for perpetrating such nonsense. Perhaps if you have facts to back up your allegations you could put in a call to the IRS for income tax evasion. They pay a reward if they collect based on tips.

[madokie]

55. I live with them. I have amish friends. I've eaten at there table, I've had an amish girlfriend

I've worked with them, I know how they work and what I just told you is the way its done. I don't know where you are or what your relationship with the amish is but you are way off. They do not pay income taxes they do not take social security nor Medicare or any of that.
What is your relationship with the amish because you're full of it in what you're saying here. The amish here in OK do as I just said. They are exempt from all our laws for the most part. No drivers license, no insurance on their tractors that they use as their transportation, they pay no road taxes on fuel or tires and thats a fact. When you hire them to do work for you they want cash but will take a check and if you give them a check they take it to their church and the church cashes the check and gives them back their 90% keeping the churchs tithe. Check the color of the fuel in their tractors and its red signifying that no taxes is paid on that fuel.

Again what do you know first hand about the amish?

[ScreamingMeemie]

57. If you are not Amish...how did you have an Amish girlfriend?

Just curious. Also, are you maybe talking about Mennonites? The Amish I know of don't use tractors or any other form of motorized vehicle.

[madokie]

59. Nope I have Mennonite friends too. I live in the middle of Amish and Mennonites

They're a totally different sect. They have cars, electricity, phones and pay taxes if you hire them but not the amish.

its difficult to bid a job against the Amish because they have this little thing called no taxes that allows them to turn in a lower bid. The only reason I've beat them out on jobs is because I do better work. I no longer work due to disabilities but I did up to 6 years ago.
I know of what I speak.

Oh the girlfriend, ultimately she was forced out of our relationship because her family was going to disown her if she didn't. We're still friends 40 years later, I'm married and she's married. I have step children she has 8 kids. I was given the opportunity to join them but I declined as I'm not cut from the same cloth. I like my lifestyle not theirs. They have a problem with inter breeding because they all are related so the girls from here now are moved to Indiania or Pensalvania, Illinois and other states. The young men from those states are relocated here and other location where there is an amish sect because of that problem they found themselves with.

[ScreamingMeemie]

64. Where I grew up this was not the case. Thanks for your info.

I think both of you know of what you speak. It is apparent that there are many differences ranging across the Amish sect. Very interesting. I also know of what I grew up near. It is nowhere near what your experiences with the Amish were, but that does not mean that what you say is not true. Where I grew up we interacted with the Amish only to the extent that they sold us bread and cheese. The children were kept away from the families who drove in to purchase product. I would have had no opportunities to date an Amish boy. Very interesting.

On edit: things may have changed in the 30 years since I have lived there but they did not have phones either. The ones with pay phones or a "community phone" were shunned by the old order Amish.

[kestrel91316]

74. There are more varieties of Amish than Heinz has pickles.

Beachy Amish drive cars (but in the days of chrome bumpers they had to paint them black). Old Order Mennonites look and act just like Old Order Amish in dress and horse/buggy and lack of electricity/phones, but they don't shun, and they DO pay into Social Security and Medicare.

Don't believe that nonsense about the Amish not paying any taxes. It is NO different from the ancient slander about Jews roasting and eating Christian babies and putting their blood in Passover matzoh(you know, the blood libel of recent fame).

[kestrel91316]

73. Again the false claim that they don't have to pay taxes. If they aren't paying income taxes

(how do you happen to know this? do you snoop in their homes and desks when they are working the fields?) then you should turn them in to the IRS and collect your reward. You DO have sufficient facts to do so, right?

Come on, maybe you can even name names right here on DU. Is it Moses Miller who cheats, or is it Luke Showalter? Or maybe it's John and Mary Troyer? Surely you need to point fingers and expose these tax cheats?

Unless maybe you are just repeating the tired old falsehood that has been going around for years.

And of course, you turn a blind eye to your good ol' Baptist buddies who cheat on THEIR taxes........

[blue neen]

75. The Amish in this part of Pennsylvania do indeed avoid paying some of their taxes.

Many of the men do carpentry work for local home builders and other contractors and are paid under the table, thereby avoiding income taxes. They also sell a lot of home made furniture and wood products that also is not always reported as income.

The women sell baked goods, produce, etc. at roadside stands that are sometimes hastily arranged.

That being said--the Amish are not the only ones engaging in those practices.

[kestrel91316]

82. Exactly. It has nothing to do with their being Amish. Church rules are that they

are to obey the law and pay their taxes like everybody else.

Just goes to show you they are not perfect people, but the ones who DO pay their taxes never get noticed. Only the bad apples.

BTW, I would bet a sizeable chunk of change that Amish are better about paying income taxes than the average Pentecostal fundie.

[kestrel91316]

71. Some Amish use tractors. Some don't. Depends on the individual little

church group's Ordnung.

[ScreamingMeemie]

72. Here's the thing...Where I grew up (WI) the Amish we knew of did

not call those in the community who used motorized vehicles Amish. This is very interesting.

[kestrel91316]

81. There are as many varieties of Amish as Heinz has pickles, and some of

them do NOT fellowship with some of the others. There are endless splits and subdivisions going on because of internal disagreements about rules (the Ordnung). Every little church community (usually 20 families or so) has its own Ordnung, and it covers everything from the width of hat brims and the color and style of the women's headcoverings to what kind of window curtains, what color and style of buggy, rubber tires on the tractor or not, motorized tractors or horsepowered only, electricity to keep the bulk milk tank cold or not, community phone down by the road or not, propane tanks for the house to have a propane fridge or not, indoor plumbing or not, on and on and on.

Beachy Amish can drive cars. Most others not. Old Order Amish definitely not, lol.

Your local Amish that drove cars probably didn't consider the other ones Amish either, and they probably wouldn't do business with each other.

My mom's dad's family came from "Amish and Minnonites and Dunkers", so I have been fascinated with them for years. They number half a million now, and I think there must be about 10,000 different versions of the Ordnung, and for each little group, only theirs is correct. The only reason they haven't killed each other off over all their differences is that they are ALL pacifists.

[kestrel91316]

69. You know a few Amish in YOUR community. If you know they are tax cheats

you have a civic duty to turn them in to the IRS or you are aiding and abetting.

What proof do you have that ALL Amish are tax cheats?

You haven't explained to me how they are avoiding paying sales tax and property tax.

This may come as a shock to the narrowminded bigots on DU, but Amish farmers are entitled to the same business expense writeoffs that non-Amish are. They are NOT exempt from all or even most of our laws. They ARE exempt from the requirement for education through 12th grade, and they ARE permitted their own schools, and they are of course exempt from paying into Social Security and Medicare but that's because, when exempt, they are permanently BARRED FROM COLLECTING from them.

I don't know any personally, living here in the city of Los Angeles, but I claim descent from them and have read just about every scholarly text about them in existence (Hostetler's classic reference "Amish Society", Johns Hopkins University Press, is the best place to start as it is by a formerly Amish university sociology professor, so he has a clue).

You, OTOH, appear to have a passing acquaintance with a few, and have listened to and believed a whole heap of malicious gossip about them. But that's ok. They expect as much from us English. To their credit, they keep silent about it and instead pray for those who hate them but do not understand them.

You might want to do a little homework on this much-maligned and persecuted group of religious refugees. Your words remind me so much of what people used to say in Germany about the Jews when Hitler told them what to think and even what the Catholic Church said about Jews during the Inquisition. Tarring any group with a large brush because of the dishonest actions of a few is pretty RWish and hateful, IMHO. I expect better of you.

I would suggest that it is the OKIE in them that makes them such scofflaws, rather than the Amish, but that wouldn't be fair to you.

~~~~~~~
http://www.holycrosslivonia.org/amish/amishfaq.htm#tax

Do the Amish pay taxes?
Self-employed Amish do not pay Social Security tax. Those employed by non- Amish employers do pay Social Security tax. The Amish do pay real estate, state and federal income taxes, county taxes, sales tax, etc.

The Amish do not collect Social Security benefits, nor would they collect unemployment or welfare funds. Self sufficiency is the Amish community's answer to government aid programs. Section 310 of the Medicare section of the Social Security act has a sub-section that permits individuals to apply for exemption from the self-employment tax if he is a member of a religious body that is conscientiously opposed to Social Security benefits but that makes reasonable provision of taking care of their own elderly or dependent members. The Amish have a long history of taking care of their own members. They do not have retirement communities or nursing homes; in most cases, each family takes care of their own, and the Amish community gives assistance as needed.

Is it true the Amish are exempt from Medicare and Medicaid withholding? What legal basis is used for this?
Medicare and Medicaid are a part of the Social Security system. Old Order Amish believe that if the church is faithful to its calling, many government programs and commercial insurance are not needed. That conviction forced them to testify before Congress because they did not want to receive Social Security benefits. What they wanted instead was the right to look after their own elderly. They were finally given approval, if self-employed, to be exempt from paying the tax. Seldom do Old Order Amish individuals accept Social Security, Medicare, or Medicaid.

~~~~~~~~
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1398/do-the-amish-pay-taxes
Dear Straight Dope:

I live near "Amish country" in Pennsylvania, and am told by many here (non-Amish many, that is) that the Amish do not pay taxes. Is this true? I did work at a job where I had daily access to Amish people, and could have asked them, but never had the nerve. Now I am hoping you can set the record straight.

— Veggie1968

According to my personal CPA:

a. They are not exempt from sales taxes, because they are in direct competition with other retail business, so it would be unfair competition.

b. No one is exempt from income taxes

c. Church property is exempt from real estate taxes, but personal holdings are not.

d. It is possible to be exempt from social security taxes for religious purposes. This is probably where the confusion comes in.

— CKDextHavn

~~~~~~~~~
http://www.amishnews.com/amisharticles/amishss.htm
~~~~~~~~~
http://www.amish-heartland.com/amish/page/faq

Is it true that the Amish don't have to pay taxes?

The Supreme Court has ruled that Amish who are self employed do not have to pay Social Security tax, as it is a form of insurance and as such conflicts with their religious beliefs. Amish who are employed by non-Amish employers, however, do pay this tax. Amish pay property taxes, income taxes, sales taxes, etc., as well.

~~~~~~~~~~~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_A._Hostetler
http://www.amazon.com/Amish-Society-John-Hostetler/dp/0801844428

[piedmont]

103. The red diesel in their tanks is off-road diesel, specifically allowed for tractors.

It's about 40 cents cheaper per gallon because no highway tax is applied-- the vehicles and equipment permitted to run it are not wearing out our roads. It's dyed red to make it easy to catch tax-cheats trying to run their cars and trucks on the road with it. Every farmer in America runs their tractor on this fuel.

edit: just saw your comment up-thread about them using tractors on road. All I can say is it seems that would be pretty damn expensive when compared to making the same trips with a car or truck. Even a Hummer would get better MPG than a tractor. But people do squirrely stuff to avoid taxes.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

46. I have never served in the military and am not eligible now.

I'm a parasite, too.

Fucking militaristic nutballs drive me crazy. The Amish have every right to BE PACIFISTS. It's part of their religious freedom.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[madokie]

56. And its that freedom of religion that allows them to do as I'm trying to tell you

I don't think you know shit about the amish

[madokie]

63. The Amish and Mennonite are CO's

They do not live by the same rules as we regular folks do and if you knew anything about them you'd know that but you don't. I can tell by what you're typing in your replies.

[Ikonoklast]

53. Your ignorance of the Amish and Anabaptists is encyclopedic.

Yet you insist on displaying it.

I salute you.

[madokie]

58. stupid is as stupid does is all I can say

and I'm not talking about you.

[Ikonoklast]

60. No foul.

Must be a slow night in the gungeoun.

[float upstream]

89. There is ignorance even amongst the very learned...

:hi:

[Mosby]

91. My objection isn't with Amish religious beliefs per se

Normally I would consider a religion's theology, eschatology etc. their business but the pure Pacifism that the Amish have adopted is a universal concept affecting everyone. It's a fundamentally flawed idea which ignores typical social dynamics seen worldwide.

[EFerrari]

62. LOL. That's funny because it's so much the other way around,

the MIC is our parasite and it feeds off of working people.

[mentalsolstice]

90. I guess I'm a parasite as well...

by your reasoning. I never served in the military, so therefore I don't have the same constitutional rights as others. BTW, the military would have rejected my application to serve because of a disability...oh wait, now I get it, that's why the disabled are still treated as less-than-citizens.

[Hestia]

94. Definition of cult:

a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies.

In anthropology, an organization for the conduct of ritual, magical, or other religious observances. Many so-called primitive tribes, for example, have ancestor cults, in which dead ancestors are considered divine and activities are organized to respect their memory and invoke their aid. A cult is also a religious group held together by a dominant, often charismatic individual, or by the worship of a divinity, an idol, or some other object.

Basically, every religion is a cult.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

108. They Have No Phone Service.

that is one tool that no Amish rely on, regardless of their particular sect-like rules.

So, when they called for help, it required getting someone to take a buggy into town, locate some authority, probably the Police or the Hospital, giving them specific instructions on how to find the farm, then allowing them to transport the burned Amish lady.


With minor burns, I have no problem using natural methods. With a major burn, it is no different than treating out of control adult onset diabetes with prayer.

And curing disease with prayer is about as effective as praying for SMU to beat Notre Dame, or for you to win the Lotto.

[KurtNYC]

27. Not even the coroner who examined her body would say what you did.

I get my idea from the coroner who examined the body and is a medical expert in identifying cause of death. He would say only that this "was POSSIBLY a survivable incident" (emphasis mine).

These people weren't using witchcraft or faith healing or something unproven. They were using traditional medicines and treatments. I think that is their choice and their right, just as it is the choice of others to trust the American pharmaceutical industry. Over 100,000 people die each year from interactions between prescribed mainstream medicines. Thousands of terminal cancer patients are subjected to horrible chemo and radiation even though there is no chance of stopping their cancers through these methods. Trusting the hospital system is ALSO an act of faith.

[LisaL]

85. While home remedies might be just fine for minor burns,

it ain't going to cut it for severe burns.

[kestrel91316]

34. I don't know where you get the idea she WOULDN'T have died anyway.

You're a doctor? A burn specialist??

Tell me, what percentage of her body's surface area was burned? How deep were the burns? What degree?

She didn't commit suicide. She made a bad decision while terrified and in excruciating pain. Wow. First time that's ever happened in the history of the world.

[LisaL]

86. So, what home remedies work for severe burns?

Do tell.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. Here are some of the popular home remedies

where I come from

Toothpaste (don't ask, and it don't work either)

Butter...

A few others...

Burns, especially deep burns require IVs, blood products, clean bandages, preferably sterile and antibiotics. Home remedies are not going to cut it if the burns are severe enough.

That is not a matter of lipitor or commercial things... it is reality.

Having dealt with very traditional societies clashing with modern medicine I get it.

But this is not about pushing Statins, which by the way have extended the life of people with CAD... and their QUALITY OF LIFE.

But hell, I am not going to have this debate, You made your mind pretty much that this was less effective treatment. If a burn is severe enough traditional care and prayer ain't gonna cut it.

[Horse with no Name]

70. That was what I was wondering

2 days isn't a very long time for a massive infection to set up--sounds like there was much more to it.

Regardless, my thoughts are with the family of this poor woman...what a horrible death.

[WatsonT]

9. Her choice

Her religion was more important to her than her life.

I don't have any issue with this.

It's only when they do this nonsense to kids that I get pissed off.

[rug]

11. Really? Do you know any Amish who have health insurance to pay for a hospital bill?

[WatsonT]

13. According to their religion they wouldn't use it anyway

likewise this was an emergency, so could have called 911 if she cared to and been at least stabilized.

This was her choice.

You can't support the bodily autonomy of adults only some of the time.

[rug]

15. 911 was called.

[WatsonT]

18. So she declined care?

Again, no problem. Her choice.


I guess ultimately it comes down to this: who do you believe owns your body? You, or the government?

[Brickbat]

20. Two days later.

[NV Whino]

16. Um, regarding 911...

No phone.

[WatsonT]

19. Neighbors

The Amish don't exist in a vacuum.

[RamboLiberal]

21. Many erect a small enclosure where they put a phone

And I know this area. One could've easily driven a carriage to a neighbor farm or to the town to access a phone.

[eridani]

52. Not true. There are pay phones out on the highways in Amish areas

Some are down a long driveway and have extra loud ringers.

[madokie]

61. Its very common to be in Amish country and at the end of a drive way be a pay phone

Thats how they do their business. Some will even have a pay phone on their front porch if they are competing with the rest of us tax paying workers for work.

[LanternWaste]

104. I imagine your perspective aptly illustrates modern indifference...

I imagine your perspective aptly illustrates modern indifference... among other things.

[aikoaiko]

12. I respect people's choices to leave as they wish when it doesn't harm others.

RIP Ella.

[undeterred]

17. Burns are a horrible way to die.

I feel so bad for her.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. The Amish have no religeous objection to modern medicine

Claims that this is a religious issue are incorrect.

[Mosby]

29. is that really true?

How in the world can the amish reject modern techlology but not modern medicine? Seems a tad hypocritical.

[Curmudgeoness]

31. I don't know about whether it is hypocritical or not,

but yes, it is true. The Amish are not opposed to going to the hospital or using modern medicine. But they do not have any insurance and pay the hospital bills themselves (or the community helps them). It is my guess that this woman did not realize how severe her injuries were, and did not want to go into debt to the hospital if she didn't have to do it. I can relate. Although I would probably go to the hospital at this point, I have treated myself for things that I didn't have any business doing myself.

[kestrel91316]

39. Your gross ignorance is showing. The Amish reject SELECT technologies

after long and careful assessment of their negative impact on their close-knit society. So you will see them reject electricity and telephones in the home, but have a phone down by the road, or have electricity in the barn only. Some Amish drive cars (Beachy Amish) but most don't, but some Mennonites reject cars too and drive buggies instead (where is you folks' attack on the Mennonites??). Some Amish are apparently using solar panels for limited electricity in their business or the barn.

Until you have read John Hostetler's book Amish Society cover-to-cover you really don't have any business spouting such utter claptrap about something you know nothing about. Every individual Amish church group has its rules about technology. Some are quite modern. The Old Order Amish are the most conservative but even they vary a great deal.

They DO NOT reject modern medicine per se. They lean heavily toward home remedies, holistic approaches, OTC products and herbal medicine (exactly like a large proportion of non-Amish Americans INCLUDING ME) but do not use them exclusively. They DO refuse to purchase medical insurance, choosing instead to pay their own way with assistance from their willing community members if necessary.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

48. Why do you not believe in freedom of religion and freedom of career choice??

Why is freedom for everyone EXCEPT Amish??

They came to America (invited by William Penn) to escape religious persecution and they found freedom from it here. Why do you want to force them to give up their religion and practice YOURS???

I'm calling CHRISTOFASCIST TROLL BS.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kestrel91316]

51. Folks, this is what is known as a MOVING GOALPOST.

Note how he can't win the argument about whether or non nonmilitary persons have constitutional rights, so he moves on to whining about how Amish don't become physicians.

Wow. Betcha thought we wouldn't notice.

Debate FAIL.

[treestar]

96. Why not educate instead of scolding?

No one can read every book on every subject.

And people are going to have opinions whether you like it or not.

If you want to inform them, do so. You don't have to be condescending about it.

[eridani]

54. Not really. They decide as a community which technology to accept and which to reject.

Gas-powered freezers for storage of home produced food are fine with them.

[treestar]

97. I agree, because rejecting our medical establishment

and then expecting it to serve them is wrong. Reject our society, fine, one has freedom to do that. But this happening and then blaming our society for letting it happen as some appear to do in this thread? Wrong.

[madokie]

65. I've never seen an Amish person in our hospitals

Mennonites yes but Amish no. They take care of their own. Once in a while you'll find a Mennonite in a nursing home around here but its rare. Never an Amish though. there is Mennonite doctors and veterinarians but I've never heard of an Amish doctor or veterinarian and when the Amish need either they go with the Mennonite.
We have two completely different sects of Amish here, some only use beast of burden, horses, to travel the other uses tractors. Mennonites are more like the rest of us though.

[kestrel91316]

76. The Amish end their formal education with 8th grade, and higher education

is frowned on as a sign of pride. You won't find any Amish physicians or veterinarians. Those who wish to get more education and enter a profession generally do not join the Amish church at all. They tend to go Mennonite so as to stay close to the Amish community. And they are NOT shunned for doing so, and they never entered the Amish church so broke no vows.

Seriously. Read a bit more about them. Hostetler's definitive text Amish Society is scholarly yet quite approachable and not heavy reading. It was updated in 1992 (4th ed). He died in 2000-something so that's the final edition unless somebody else does it.

And Amish policy is to obey laws and pay taxes as required. But it's not a sin to take advantage of loopholes - that's just good business. And they ARE good businessmen.

[madokie]

87. That is pretty much what I've been trying to say to you

They skirt the law is a better description of what they do. And its all because of religion and the fact we have separation of church and state. Everything I've tried to tell you is correct. I'm not sure they even pay property taxes as I'm not privy to that but from what I understand the church holds the title to said land so no taxes is levied against their land. They do not play by our same laws. You'll see 10 and 12 years old Amish boys driving tractors pulling a trailer that has people riding in it and not one seat belt in sight. hell they might even have a friend or two riding on the fenders of the tractors so they can converse as they travel down the road. It not unusual to see children that are no more than 5 or 6 years old riding on those fenders. They change the rear differentials in their tractors so they can travel at up to 45 or so mph too all the while not having paid any taxes on the fuel or on the tires nor having a drivers license or even be of the age we have to be to get a learners permit. So all you know is what you've read in a book where as I live in the middle of Amish country. They have their own church owned stores where they buy what few staples they need all without paying a penny of taxes.

This is the last you'll get from me as I've tired of arguing with someone who has no idea as to what they are talking about.

Have a great day :hi:
I plan too.

[xmas74]

77. I saw an Amish woman

at the OB/Gyn when I was pregnant. Yes, she was Amish-I asked. Very polite, a bit nervous like I was. She sat while her husband stood at the window and paid up their account. I even asked about her being at the doctor, saying I thought they preferred home births. She said that nowadays many prefer to have a doctor treat them during the pregnancy and if all seems good then they will have a home birth.

I also saw another one at a six week check-up after we both had our babies. We had them about the same time. Very sweet and we made comments about the new babies.

[treestar]

95. Has and Amish person ever gone to a modern medical school?

Just curious. If there is no objection, then some Amish should become doctors.

[johnnie]

30. I've heard of people dying even WITH modern medicine

I swear I have.

[kestrel91316]

78. FAIL. People who adopt all new technologies and drive everywhere and

pay into Social Security and go to the best hospitals NEVER die of illness or injury or their complications. Just ask Cedars-Sinai or UCLA Medical Center, or a thousand others.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. Before you bleat ''her choice, no sympathy'' etc. from atop your Olympic Pedestal of Indifference...

...think of this:

In all likelihood, small children have suffered similar fates there.

Just like those Christian Science loons.

[kestrel91316]

40. And it never happens to children in non-Amish homes, of course.

[Lars39]

50. You know it!

Husband had a great great aunt who died that way as a toddler...fell into the heated water. Horrible way to die.

[tabasco]

66. That poor woman.

I respect the Amish but the dumbasses should have taken her to the emergency room.

[blue neen]

68. Here's an article from our local paper that gives more insight into this tragedy:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11153/1150820-455-0.stm

Here is the excerpt that is the most telling:

"Mrs. Miller becomes the fifth Amish female from Western Pennsylvania to die in a kerosene-related fire since 2008. In addition to the Mercer County case, a Lawrence County woman and her two young daughters died in 2010 after she lit a wood-burning stove. A kerosene container was nearby, but its role in the blaze is unknown."

"Mr. Nolt said he once read a study of Amish household accidents and that burns were somewhat more common than among the general public. That makes sense in terms of women wearing long dresses while tending open fires and gas, oil and kerosene lamps, he said."

There are children dying because of the danger involved with using the wood-burning stoves. There are now 6 children in Smicksburg who no longer have a mother, AND who likely knew how much she suffered. IMHO, it's time for the Amish to look at other sources for cooking. They've made some other adaptations over the years for safety's sake--they can do so again.

[kestrel91316]

79. I think freedom to decide how to cook one's food is pretty basic.

Kerosene CAN be used safely and IS used safely for all sorts of purposes. If people are careless, then perhaps an educational campaign would help.

The Amish would probably be all over an informal campaign in their community to teach home safety with flammables, or better yet, better safety labeling and devices for storing and dispensing. Laws to keep people from using kerosene as they see fit, not so much. Talk about nanny statism.

For the record, I use kerosene in my own home in Aladdin mantle lamps for ambience and supplemental heating (AND lighting) in cold weather. Just try and stop me. I know how to use it safely, and I store it safely.

[Bunny]

80. Nobody's taking away your kerosene, so calm down.

[LanternWaste]

105. We all need enemies... even imaginary ones will do in a pinch...

We all need enemies, even imaginary ones will do in a pinch. Along with their imaginary prohibitions on kerosene fuels, we can imagine those imaginary men in black taking our Coleman lanterns and sleeping bags too-- just for good measure and better drama.

[blue neen]

83. Apparently kerosene is NOT being used safely.

Did you read the article? Children are dying here, young mothers are dying--this is beyond careless...it's about a very dangerous way of life.

Do you live in Amish areas of Pennsylvania so that you are able to make truly educated statements about their practices here? These people are not using regular kerosene, nor are they using their highly flammable mixtures for ambience. This is how they cook and heat their homes.

If the Amish would be all over an informal campaign to teach home safety, then WHY AREN'T THEY?

The Amish are just like everyone else. They are real human beings who make real mistakes, and those mistakes need to be changed.

Non-Amish people live right next door to Amish in Smicksburg. Everyone in the community has a right to safety, and that includes proper use and control of flammables and cooking instruments.

[piedmont]

107. Holy over-reactions Batman!

"These people are not using regular kerosene, nor are they using their highly flammable mixtures for ambience."

I don't think you read the article deeply enough, either. In the case in which they found kerosene had been mixed with gasoline, the fault lay with the SUPPLIER that the kerosene came from:

"Kerosene doesn't normally explode when ignited, as gasoline does. After the Mercer County death, the company that sold the kerosene issued a recall saying a faulty valve allowed gasoline to sporadically mix with its kerosene products."

In this case there was nothing left of the container to test-- it blew up.
Just maybe we ought to look at tighter regulation of gasoline storage at the petroleum companies rather than an authoritarian crack-down on how people can prepare their own food in their own homes. Kitchen knives have caused far more death and destruction than wood-burning stoves-- will we still be allowed to have them when you make the rules?

[msanthrope]

93. Are they gonna pry the kerosene out of your cold, dead, hands??? n/t

[jbnow]

109. Article mentioned possible faulty valve at station where they got kerosene

allowing some gasoline to be mixed in (or something like that) because kerosene is not explosive and an explosive sound was heard at time of accident. Husband heard it and ran in

[treestar]

98. Touring historic houses, I recall guides telling us

That many a housewife died due to cooking fires, and how dangerous it was - including the long skirts adding to the chances.

[blue neen]

100. Exactly. It's horrible that it is still going on today.

One of my own spiritual beliefs is that our maker gave us brains and common sense so that we could put them to good use.

It's time to stop putting these women's and children's lives in danger.

[Taitertots]

101. Kerosene = OK but Modern Medicine = Bad

Sounds like a darwin award, but she already has 6 children. Darwin rolls in his grave.

[Wabbajack_]

102. Stupid pointless death

If this is their attitude then they need to have their kids taken away, next time it could be one of them.