It's not about the immorality of abortion...

[Hepburn]

...it's about controlling women.

[Hepburn]

1. Thank you for the rec...

...that latest attack just really got to me.

[REP]

2. K & R

[Hepburn]

3. Again...

...thank you for the rec's!

[MichiganVote]

4. K&R

[Balbus]

5. Maybe so...

But I've never heard an advocate of pro-life say that's the reason they're against abortion. So it's very difficult to use that as a rebuttal when it's never brought forth as an argument.

[csziggy]

11. So why aren't the "pro-life" people fighting against the death penalty?

Or FOR taking care of the children born to women who might have gotten an abortion but who could not because of restrictive laws? Or promoting the use of family planning and birth control to women so the number of abortion is lessened? Or simply taking care of the large number of children in this country who are going hungry?

"Pro-lifers" do not really care about life or they would be working on these problems. They want to control women and deny women control of their own lives.

[sita]

24. I disagree. After all,

you are pro-choice, I take it? And yet you are against the death penalty? It works both ways. We are inconsistent as human beings. People love their pets and yet most think nothing of eating a cow or pig. It doesn't negate being a vegetarian if the vegetarian wears leather.

[laundry_queen]

32. It's very consistent.

If one is pro-life they believe a fetus is a whole human being and they don't feel someone else should make the choice to end its life. YET they are perfectly ok with other people making the choice to end an adult's (also, a whole, human being) life. Pro-choice people don't believe a fetus is a whole, autonomous human being. A fetus cannot survive without being, technically, a parasite on its host. Therefore it is not a whole, separate being. The mother, however, IS a whole, separate being. So is the person on death row about to be executed. And it would be immoral to end that whole, human being's life. A fetus, however, is not a person and is intertwined with the rights of the mother, who IS a whole, separate being. So the position of choice (and autonomy of the mother) is completely consistent. It's the anti-choice view that is totally inconsistent.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JDPriestly]

50. Sandra Day O'Connor said it best.

though the abortion decision may originate within the zone of conscience and belief, it is more than a philosophic exercise. Abortion is a unique act. It is an act fraught with consequences for others: for the woman who must live with the implications of her decision; for the persons who perform and assist in the procedure; for the spouse, family, and society which must confront the knowledge that these procedures exist, procedures some deem nothing short of an act of violence against innocent human life; and, depending on one's beliefs, for the life or potential life that is aborted. Though abortion is conduct, it does not follow that the State is entitled to proscribe it in all instances. That is because the liberty of the woman is at stake in a sense unique to the human condition, and so, unique to the law. The mother who carries a child to full term is subject to anxieties, to physical constraints, to pain that only she must bear. That these sacrifices have from the beginning of the human race been endured by woman with a pride that ennobles her in the eyes of others and gives to the infant a bond of love cannot alone be grounds for the State to insist she make the sacrifice. Her suffering is too intimate and personal for the State to insist, without more, upon its own vision of the woman's role, however dominant that vision has been in the course of our history and our culture. The destiny of the woman must be shaped to a large extent on her own conception of her spiritual imperatives and her place in society.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=505&invol=833

"these sacrifices . . . from the beginning of the human race" are a more compelling moral concern that the competing concerns raised by the pro-life proponents.

Pregnancy is a life-changing condition. It does not all that infrequently end in illness, in death, in a lifelong commitment that a mother is unable to meet. That is why abortion must be the choice of the pregnant woman and of no one else.

Above all, men, and especially single, abstinent men, should keep their opinions on this issue to themselves.

[Raster]

60. HEAR! HEAR!

[Raster]

51. They aren't "pro-life." They are anti-choice, plain and simple.

[PatSeg]

53. Exactly

If they were "pro-life", they wouldn't support wars and the death penalty.

I'm not "pro-abortion", I'm "pro-choice". We need to take more control over the messaging and not let them define all the terms.

[RZM]

52. I agree that 'pro-life' isn't the greatest term

Though I'm not sure I like linking abortion and the death penalty. They are quite different animals. I haven't talked abortion with pro-lifer in a long time, but I would imagine that they think unborn children are 'innocent' while a convicted murderer has already had a shot to do it right and 'made his bed,' so to speak. Not saying I see it the same way, but that's probably what you would get if you asked.

To be fair too, some pro-lifers certainly do volunteer/address larger social/community issues. Plenty of them are working men and women who vote Democratic. I support abortion rights, but I try to respect the beliefs of people who see it a different way.

[Hugabear]

17. Why do they fight so hard against programs to help single mothers?

If they were truly concerned about the welfare of the unborn child, they wouldn't be turning their backs on them the minute they're born. They're practically saying "Every kid deserves a chance to be born; once you're born, you're on your own".

[catabryna]

6. Is your sign in name based on Katherine Hepburn?

I am familiar with her story... just curious.

[Hepburn]

15. Audrey Hepburn...

...I love Kate, too, but Audrey has always fascinated me.

:hi:

[CTyankee]

63. Have you read "Fifth Avenue. 5 a.m."?

It's about the making of "Breakfast at Tiffany's." It was a fascinating insight into all the component parts of the making of that movie, including of course Audrey.

I think you'll like it if you haven't discovered it already...

[mindwalker_i]

7. Although I agree...

The other kind of major part is forcing people to agree with their religion, or at least live by the (current) rules of said religion.

[barbtries]

20. right again,

and fundamentalism of any religion, at least the big 3, is served with huge portions of sexism. women barely rate as human beings.

[ProfessionalLeftist]

8. Yes. Exactly. n/t

[Maraya1969]

9. I feel like telling every anti-abortionist man to get the fuck away from my body

He has no right to touch me with his grimy little hands.

[StarsInHerHair]

10. it's about the ego rush they get having the "power of life & death" over women

nt

[Wounded Bear]

12. Pretty much....

it says more about them that they want to control people's sex lives by ensuring that people who actually share one face the maximum penalties imaginable. No BC, no protection from disease, no allowance to function outside of their narrow religious view of how relationships "should be."

Hey, I'm a man, so sometimes I'm part of the problem, but I'm on your side with this one.

If there is no full health care for women, they are not free.

[Hepburn]

13. Thank you...

...your sentiments tell me some very nice things about you! :hug:

[donheld]

14. if It was "about the immorality of abortion..."

the "pro-lifers" would give a damn what happens to the Fetus once it's born and becomes a living breathing baby.

[Hepburn]

16. Amen....

...and I think of this so often. The fetus is the end all and be all to these busy bodies...until it is born.

[LeftishBrit]

18. I always think it's amazing...

that right-wing 'pro-lifers' don't seem to worry too much about the huge differences in infant mortality rates between rich and poor people.

Case in point: right-wing British journalist Melanie Phillips of the Daily Mail.

Title of article from Feb. 28th, 2011:

'What hope is there if doctors won't respect unborn children?'

Title of article from May 23rd, 2011:

'Boo me if you like, but it's time to ignore the bleeding hearts and shut down the ministry of foreign aid'

Because once you've been BORN you lose the right to respect! And if you happen to live in a poor country, with uncertain chances of survival, then that's just your tough luck! As someone once said, the religious Right appear to believe that the right to life begins at conception and ends at birth.

[barbtries]

19. agreed.

how many of the people pushing these terrible laws had abortions themselves or fathered abortions? i would love to know.

[femrap]

21. Controlling their

ENTIRE LIVES....years and years and years. Compulsory motherhood.

[sita]

22. Where do you place my beliefs?

I am against abortion but I don't particularly care that it's legal.

I don't feel that women who have abortions are murderers, and yet I still think it's not the thing to do. (I totally get why a woman/girl who is raped would want to be rid of a fetus)

[sita]

23. Where do you place my beliefs?

I am against abortion but I don't particularly care that it's legal.

I don't feel that women who have abortions are murderers, and yet I still think it's not the thing to do. (I totally get why a woman/girl who is raped would want to be rid of a fetus)

[Chorophyll]

26. If you "don't particularly care that it's legal," then

we have no problem. It's limiting the healthcare and reproductive rights of others that's an issue.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

29. Wow, that's insulting.

You put the word choice in quotes. Why? Is it somehow not a choice? And what makes you so sure that women don't "really think on it"? How very condescending. Are you of the group that thinks women put no more thought into getting an abortion than they do for a manicure? :eyes:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

33. Your "choice" is to NOT get an abortion if you don't want one.

Is that really so hard to understand? :shrug:

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

37. I don't care what your personal beliefs are.

As long as you aren't actively working to have even more restrictions placed on a woman's right to autonomy over her own body, I have no problem with you. But, I don't expect to come to a progressive message board and get told that women need to "think" about this decision, and other garbage like that. If you do that here, I will continue to challenge you, as will others.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

40. I don't care how many abortions any woman has had. Do you get that?

It's none of my business, nor is it yours.

And you may as well accept that being anti-choice here is going to get challenged - you are on a progressive website. If you want to express views like the ones you've stated in this thread, there are tons of other places to do so. Don't bring that shit here.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RockaFowler]

43. But why should you care what someone else does??

Does it affect your life if a woman has an abortion?? No.

Does it affect your life if she has multiple abortions? No.

It's your CHOICE to not have an abortion. It may be someone else's CHOICE to have one. But it is their choice. Not yours.

[Bunny]

44. Yes, your little bit about women needing to "think" about their decision

is, indeed, a big steaming pile of shit. It's condescending and rude, as well as a pretty big tipoff to those of us who've heard this millions of times before. Yes, you're not the first one to join up and start in on some anti-progressive ideas - we've been to this rodeo plenty of times already.

You can be "anti-abortion" all you want, you just can't bring that HERE. If you want to be anti-choice, go find a website that's more in tune with your beliefs . Good bye.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PeaceNikki]

47. IMHO, a progressive can be anti-abortion, just not anti-choice.

Don't get one if you don't like them, but don't push your choices on others legal medical decisions.

[etherealtruth]

49. Exactly

Its no one's business what choice I would make ... nor is it my business what choice an other woman makes.

Be as morally opposed to abortion (or whatever) as you want to be ... just don't try to legislate your version of morality.

[defendandprotect]

66. +1

[blondeatlast]

68. One can comfortably against abortion but pro-choice. I don't see how

the opposite can hold. So where do you place yourself? It's a legal issue now, like it or not, so fence-sitting doesn't really work.

[Lucian]

72. No surprise you were banned.

As you should have been.

Good riddance.

[ceile]

25. Yep. n/t

[Chorophyll]

27. K&R

[tjwash]

30. ...

[MountainLaurel]

35. Love it n/t

[Mopar151]

39. 100% true

Dr. George Tiller was nothing short of a saint - ask any of his paitents.

[GeorgeGist]

42. I think you meant morality.

But maybe not.

[Thumper79]

46. BINGO

[cate94]

48. Bingo.

K & R

Clarity and brevity. Nice.

[MellowDem]

54. It's not about controlling women...

...it's about killing babies.

See how easy that is?

Not to mention, you are naive if you think it is all some sort of patriarchal movement. If you can't see the fact that abortion brings up uncomfortable questions of when life begins legally or otherwise, then you are being willfully blind. Meanwhile, American society is becoming more progressive steadily on many social issues, yet abortion has stayed stagnant and divided for decades now. Maybe if you want to convince the other side, you should address their actual concerns.

[Mopar151]

56. First of all, they are not babies...

Until they are born.
Second:
When contraception or sex education is mentioned to a so-called pro-lifer, as an alternate to abortion, they look at the ground, scuff their feet, and say that they don't "beleive" in those either.
Third:
When a fetus is the result of rape, incestuous rape, or is non-viable in practical terms, their fingers go in their ears, and they start to chant "pro-life, pro-life" or "baby-killer"
Fourth:
I get the sense that many of them beleive that moral ambiguity can be transcended if enough suffering is involved.

[originalpckelly]

61. "I hear you have a fetus on the way, that's wonderful!"

"She lost the fetus."
"How many more months until the fetus is born?"

"I hear you have a collection of cells on the way, when are you due?"
"Come over here honey, the fetus just kicked!"

It's a baby when you want it, it a fetus or collection of cells when you don't.

I'm not giving a position on the matter, but oh how I do hate hypocrisy.

[MellowDem]

70. It was meant to be sarcastic...

nonetheless, many do indeed believe fetuses to be human.

I fully agree with you on the inconsistencies of some of their positions, no doubt about it. But just ignoring them and saying that it is all about controlling women certainly won't convince them. Better to try to address their actual concerns. There are many non-hardcore pro-lifers who will give on rape or incest and who can be convinced that sex education will lead to less abortions.

[defendandprotect]

57. It's about controlling women and always has been.... Nature is pro-choice ...

where did natural means of controlling reproduction go --

ask patriarchy --

It is patriarchy which destroyed the natural plants which gave women control over

reproduction -- plants are our medicines -- and combined with women's wisdom -- WICCA --

all of the plants and information was destroyed by patriarchy.

Yes -- some knowledge and some plants did survive -- RU 486, for one, uses plant knowledge

to keep a fertilized egg from embedding in the lining of the womb.

But it would be farce to suggest that the patriarchal war on women wasn't purposeful --

or that tens of thousands of years of violence against women and oppression of women didn't

happen.

The concerns I would address have to do with "pro-lifers" who murder doctors --

evidently they have little problem with that!

[Lucian]

73. What an idiotic response.

Killing babies? Seriously? It IS about controlling women.

As far as I'm concerned, it's not a baby until it's born.

[MellowDem]

80. What a misguided response...

I'm merely pointing out what the other side would say, not my personal opinion. And your opinion on when it becomes a baby means as much as the next persons, so you might as well address people's actual concerns if you want to convince them.

Scientifically, there is no way to determine when "life" begins legally in our society. It is a wholly moral question that everyone decides based on their own biases.

[ZombieHorde]

55. Are the women against abortion mainly motivated by the desire to control other women?

My mother is against abortion, but I think she is motivated by morality.

[defendandprotect]

58. Were the women who did FGM or Chinese Foot Binding ....

motivated by morality -- or by patriarchy?

[ZombieHorde]

64. I don't know. I have not lived in those cultures.

Motivation can be difficult to determine, especially when they are using a completely different paradigm. Our interpretation of stimuli is very different from each other. I don't really know the motivation of Muslim women who live in the middle east, or nationalistic Chinese women.

[defendandprotect]

65. Doesn't take much reflection to understand that historically it was patriarchy

that put these systems in place -- systems so abusive and detrimental to all

females -- and this abuse in both cases reached widespread areas -- nations!

"Motivation" was your word -- this is history --

and abortion is just another bit of history --

It is more helpful usually to understand what is going on from the highest

perspectives -- and that highest perspective for more than 50,000 years has

been male violence oppressing females.


For example -- right now trying to understand the problems of one indivudal who

lacks heath care would be ignoring the overall political rightwing agenda which

is to prevent health care for all Americans and would lead you to a lesser

understanding of what is actually causing the problems for the individual!

[ZombieHorde]

69. "History" is your word. I interpret the OP as being about motivation because of its use of the word

morality.

I don't think patriarchy is the main motivation behind the pro-life movement. I think morality/religion is the main motivator here in the US.

Susan B. Anthony was pro-life, and she definitely was not trying to support patriarchy.

[defendandprotect]

75. All organized patriarchal religion is simply the underpinning for PATRIARCHY ... !!

It's all based on male-supremacy, is it not?

Actually, I think what the poster meant was that abortion is not a "sin" -- because

much of the anti-abortion thinking is connected to religious beliefs.

And, there is certainly a difference between organized patriarchal religious beliefs

and one's own spirituality which often has nothing to do with religion.


I don't think patriarchy is the main motivation behind the pro-life movement. I think morality/religion is the main motivator here in the US.

Patriarchy and organized patriarchal religion -- its underpinning -- has always been the

source of oppression of females and still is. And, it has additionally been the source

of destruction of plant/drug information which was naturally produced and available to

women which permitted them to control reproduction -- to limit fertility when they wished,

to serve as birth control, to end fertility if they wished -- and to end pregnancies.

In other words, nature is pro-choice. Patriarchy is pro-control.

The Bible was written to cement patriarchy.


Organized patriarchal religion is also strongly connected to those who seem to have been

financing the "pro-lifers" -- which would be the white militiia groups who used their

"Christian" beliefs also to legitimize racism.

The "pro-lifers" of course betrayed themselves in killing doctors eventually when they couldn't

get their way legally.


Susan B. Anthony was pro-life, and she definitely was not trying to support patriarchy.

She was anti-abortion at a time when abortion was strongly prohibited and unthinkable.

We cannot say what her stand would be today -- but I imagine that she would stand by women's

rights and reproductive freedom.



----------

"History" is your word. I interpret the OP as being about motivation because of its use of the word
Posted by ZombieHorde
morality.

I don't think patriarchy is the main motivation behind the pro-life movement. I think morality/religion is the main motivator here in the US.

Susan B. Anthony was pro-life, and she definitely was not trying to support patriarchy.



It's not about the immorality of abortion...
...it's about controlling women.

[ZombieHorde]

76. Even if your reply -which is very nice- was 100% true, it would not apply to all people.

If you make a religion with the sole intent of making defendandprotect rich, and I join that religion, I may not be motivated by the desire to make defendandprotect rich.

I may be motivated by the love I feel for the gods you invented. I hand over all of my money to be close to the gods, and you take my money to make defendandprotect slightly more wealthy.

My motivation is different than the creator's motivation.

People with the same opinions, and group memberships, can have different motivation for those opinions and memberships.


(sorry I made you the corrupt cult leader in my hypothetical)

[defendandprotect]

77. Anti-abortionists are not "all people" -- they are the aggressive and often violent few ...

among us --

When you seek "motivation" for anti-abortion fervor, it is undoubtedly patriarchal

desire to control women and reproduction.

And the money behind it has come from the same patriarchal sources --


And -- unless you're a violent pro-lifer, I doubt anyone cares what your individual

motivations are.


Btw, evidently the "pro-lifers" also solicited protesters at the Methadone clinics!

Heard that on Thom Hartman recently -- they were PAID, of course.

Rightwing has to buy its support.

[ehrnst]

78. Yes, there are women that believe the most gruesome offensive lies about "other women."(nt)

[defendandprotect]

59. Abortion is not about "sin" -- it's as much a GOP/rw political issue as

their other ploys --

from Terri Shaivo to "death panel" scares to frighten people away from

MEDICARE FOR ALL!

GOP is a huge Hollywood soundstate financed by the wealthy --

as Cheney said, "we create the reality and the rest of you life it!" --


GOP gave start up funding for the Christian Coalition --
Richard Scaife funded Dobson's org -- and other rw wealthy funded Bauer's group.

GOP's/"pro-lifers" have been funded by the White Christian militia groups though
the Supreme Court refused to assert RICO laws against them.

GOPs/"NRA" -- NRA was radicalized by the GOP to TARGET not only liberal Democrats
but also liberal and moderal Repugs thereby moving Congress -- not the country --
to the right.

GOPs/T-baggers -- funded by Koch Bros -- which also funded DLC, btw.

[drpepper67]

62. It has been my experience

That the demographic that gets the most fired up about abortion is middle aged white men. Think Eric Robert Rudolph.
(for full disclosure, I'm in this demographic)

And yet how many of them have now, or have ever raised one foster child?

Sure there are some, the the majority? I think not.

I wonder how many pro-life people there would be if you had to select your preference on your federal taxes. And if you indicate you are pro-life you are immediately issued three foster kids, until there are no more kids in the system?

Or if you are pro-life you get to pay child support with no visitation rights for the next 18 years.

What I'm saying is people love to spout this belief or that belief. I wonder how many believe it enough to write a check?

My thought is not too many.

Yes, they tell you you must have this child, but then what?

Even though you knew having a child wasn't what was best, for whatever reason, tough? You're on your own?

[defendandprotect]

67. +1 --

Saddest thing of all, however, is that there were times -- well, actually,

Debbie Reynolds is an example of this -- where when abortion was illegal --

and that was throughout the period before 1973 -- even in extreme cases you

couldn't get an abortion --

Debbie Reynolds writes of here experience where she was pregnant and somewhere

late in the pregnancy -- 7 months or so - she discovered that the fetus was dead.

No abortion -- she had to walk around carrying this dead fetus within her until

it could be delivered!!

On top of that, with her next pregnancy the same thing happened but only earlier --

at about 5 months -- so she was now forced to carry another dead fetus around for

months!! Gestation had to go on naturally -- No abortion allowed!!

Finally, when she later had some medical tests done it showed that she had some

vitamin deficiency -- some depletion of body resources -- which had caused this.

However, had she not been forced to carry the first dead fetus for two months or

more, would her next pregnancy have suffered the same outcome?


We've also had reports here that hospitals are now so in danger of losing funding

that even normal spontaneous miscarriage is being questioned -- and hospitals are

fearful of taking in any patient even having a natural miscarriage because they

fear it will be suggested they're aiding an abortion!!

So what Repugs are doing is very damaging to the health of females -- across the

the board!

AND THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT ON THIS ISSUE!! :)

[Mopar151]

71. Keep going!

See "Third" in post #52 - your example is exactly what I'm talking about.

And - My Mom trained as an X-ray tech in an inner-city hospital around 1950. They has a "septic abortion ward" - so many botched, back alley abortions that a deadicated ward was needed. If you want to find some fierce advocates for pro-choice, ask a woman who worked in hospitals before Roe v. Wade.

[defendandprotect]

74. Love to those doctors and nurses who moved to try to save the lives of females...

Love to your Mom!

Many of these people worked to try to make abortion legal --

Also the women who went thru these illegal abortions coming out the other side if

they were lucky with hospitals having saved their lives -- they remember!!

And, they remember how cheaply their females lives and their health were held by authoritarian

lawmakers mainly concerned with controlling women and reproduction!!


:hug:

[ehrnst]

79. The hasslers outside the clinic where I escorted were mostly middle aged white men.

One or two hispanic men, one young white guy, and two very, very, very angry women - who obeyed every order the men gave.