Prosecute Harold Camping (May 21 rapture guy) for running a scam.

[LetTimmySmoke]

He swindled thousands of people out of their life savings. He ruined lives and families for personal gain. I don't care how old the guy is, throw him in jail for the rest of his life and fine the shit out of his estate.

[Electric Monk]

1. I consider him a terrorist

"Death to America on May 21, 2011, at 6:00"

He deserves a fair trial.

[tavalon]

23. Him and Yahweh both

Terrorists.

[liberalhistorian]

45. So God is a "terrorist" because

people use their free will to misinterpret and misrepresent him? I don't think so.

[Shadehawk]

49. rebuttal

no, i believe he was referring to the multiple genocides, both of the firstborn of egypt and the people killed during the flood, plus all the individual killings IE:Lott's wife etc. and possibly even the creation by an all loving all forgiving (as long as you worship him)god of a lake of fire where you are punished with eternal torment for finite sins. sounds suspiciously like the acts of an all powerful terrorist to me. and, if your response to this is "yeah but man wrote all those things!" let me remind you the bible is "divinely inspired" and "infallible"

[tavalon]

56. Have you read the old testement? Damn straight he's a terrorist

His son strayed onto a much nicer path, a genuine mensch.

[Nevernose]

83. The New Testament ain't all sunshine and lolipops

Lots of "hell" imagery for one thing.

[madokie]

88. Because of both the old and new I'm a proud non-religious person today

There is no heaven nor hell nor god nor devil. When you die you die and thats it, no afterlife, no coming back as someone else as in reincarnation. Like the bug on my windshield now, dead, dead dead. Once a persons eyes are opened to that fact they are much happier, I'm living proof of that.

[Proud Liberal Dem]

2. I hope people sue

I wonder where he went? Is anybody looking for him? I hope that he didn't engineer all of this so that he might "disappear" with all of these people's cash (though I have to wonder if that's what ultimately ended up happening)? :shrug:

[MadBadger]

3. Those people deserve everything they got

Not their children of course, but thats really their parents fault

[elocs]

7. To paraphrase Gandalf: certainly they deserve everything they got;

many who are innocent get what they do not deserve.

Does everyone who is scammed deserve what they get? The Rapture notwithstanding, people get conned and ripped off everyday. Did the old lady down the street who trusted the guys to properly take care of her driveway or roof deserve to get ripped off for thousands of dollars because she was stupid, or lonely?

No, it's a mighty throne that one gets to sit upon to have the power to decide who gets what they deserve or not.

[lapislzi]

43. Well put.

I do not wish to wear the mitre of judgment, lest I get clobbered by its sceptre.

[Drale]

4. I would say if people sue him more power to them but

I don't see any reason to prosecute him criminally because how do you prove he didn't truly believe the rapture would began yesterday?

[treestar]

8. Yeah, though maybe it's enough to investigate him?

A real probing might reveal something.

[marions ghost]

19. He made 70 million off of it?

:shrug:

Not too many scams can net you that much. He deserves prosecution (& to pay restitution).

[Tuvok Obama]

34. The proof: "follow the money"

If Harold Camping and Family Radio are broke because they spent every penny trying to save the lost from their supposed coming doom, as many of their followers did, then Camping can say he sincerely believed his own prediction.

But if he's sitting on $72 million...

http://money.cnn.com/2011/05/19/news/economy/may-21-end-of-the-world-finances-harold-camping/index.htm

...then he clearly had plans for that money--plans that did not include being raptured on May 21.

[ixion]

5. If you do it for him, you have to do the same to every religion

which is the paradox of prosecuting someone in a country with religious freedom.

Almost all religions (Buddhism being one of the primary exceptions) have any apocalyptic vision. It's part of what makes a religion a religion. All religions also have a charismatic leader. Again, this is a standard component to any religious construct. The only difference is that the institutionalized religions don't name a date.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Initech]

11. Yeah but do institutionalized religions scam money from their followers like this guy?

[ixion]

12. Of course they do...

The constructs are the same. Religion is a profit deal. And the way to profit best is to keep the sheep in line. This guy got greedy, and lit a fuse. But the Catholic Church still passes the plate every Sunday, and xian schools aren't cheap. The difference is simply that they don't set a date, hence the profit is more subtle and takes place over longer periods of time.

You think the Vatican was built on happy thoughts?

[Occulus]

14. "Religion is a profit deal."

Then tax them all.

[ixion]

15. works for me. they're a business at the End of the Day

so, yeah, tax them like you would any other.

[Initech]

28. Absolutely.

I read an article the other day where a church in my neighborhood where they bought a facility once owned by Boeing for $20 million and they're planning an additional $25 million in improvements. All I could think was - why the fuck aren't they being taxed? The taxes on that $45 million alone could go pay for a shit-ton of necessary government and social services.

[Initech]

30. True.

I seem to see it happening in Christian-based religions than anything else. It reminds me of a bit on the Simpsons (this quote coming from the town preacher):

"This strange and evil sect, the Movementarians, is nothing but a pack of rituals and chants designed to take away the money of fools. Now Let's say the Lord's Prayer 40 times but first let's pass the collection plate!"

[cleanhippie]

38. Don't they?

They pass the collection plates around every sunday. They ask for your money on their own TV networks and radio stations. Thats what they do.

[immoderate]

47. That is their only purpose.

Their only function that cannot be fulfilled by a secular agency is to intercede on behalf of the supplicant with the supreme being(s).

Consider that there is no such being, and if there is, he/she is not influenced by prayer, ritual, or rigor.

--imm

[slackmaster]

52. Yes, they certainly do

Look up the concept of tithing.

[Withywindle]

21. Well, no, because for any given religion that's 50 or more years old

chances are you can't point to any one individual who's scamming people for personal gain.

Jesus? very long dead, if he ever existed.

Mohammed? same.

Buddha? same.


Hell, I'm a Wiccan and I'll cheerfully admit that it's a pretty new religion--and yet, its founder, Gerald Gardner, has been dead for long enough that there would be no one to sue if anyone felt hard done by. (Likely not, because huge amounts of money for TV ministries and bus ads have never been something we do.)

It's very different in the case of Camping, because here is a specific individual who has been selling a very specific flavor of cultish bullshit (which most Christian denominations never endorsed). I think he should be gone after, hard and fast.

[ixion]

24. charismatic figures don't necessarily have to be alive

Notice that most of Jesus-based religions focus on the baby Jesus and Jesus on the Cross (we celebrate them both as national holidays). They do this because it's easy to control the icon. But if Jesus, the person who started it, were to actually come back he would be appalled at modern Christianity (the word itself is offensive, because it set itself above all others).

Jesus is certainly the charismatic leader, iconographically speaking.

Religions always start focused on one charismatic leader.

Wicca is Neopagan, and and such old in the roots, albeit the reorganization is more contemporary. The Pagan religion is so old, there's no record of who started it, but my money would be on a single individual (maybe someone named 'Pagan'?) a long, long, long time ago.

There are 3 basic facets for forming a religion:

1) Conception: someone needs to come up with the idea(s).
2) Construction: This person gathers others to help construct an initial group.
3) Maintenance: The organization maintains itself, still based on the initial constructs of 1) and 2), though the person who actually put those constructs together is no longer required to be there physically. He or she becomes deified, hence eternally iconic.

[Withywindle]

26. That is true--and apparently they don't even have to be charismatic!

Harold Camping certainly isn't - and with this whole May 21st Rapture thing, that's what we're talking about. Campingism, not Christianity, not even far-right-wing End Times Christianity in its narrowest sense. Even the Rapture Ready and Left Behind people didn't back his conviction.

I'm a Wiccan; I know that its modern form was pretty much written by Gerald Gardner and Doreen Valiente in the 40s and 50s--and the literary and historical and spiritual groundwork they'd done was extensive. It's controversial in the Pagan community, because Gardner at first claimed to be the recipient of secret ritual knowledge handed down orally from before the Romans came to Britain. Well, no, especially since a lot of that ritual format is clearly Masonic and Enochian.

BUT...Ronald Hutton's book 'Triumph of the Moon', which is about the LITERARY roots of Wicca, actually makes a far more convincing case for a kind of longing for a nature-based, gender-equal religion that never really left Europe, ever, and has always been reflected in its art and poetry.

As a writer myself, I am perfectly happy with the idea that my religion is a primarily literary construction, built on centuries of longing for a society of the imagination. I know that religions are made by humans, and I am happy in this one.

Yes, I agree with people who say that religion is irrational. Of course it is. My religion makes the irrational part of my brain (which is an important part of me) challenged and intrigued and curious. Irrationality is in all of us, and it deserves its place.

[Odin2005]

36. Gerald Garnder was a fraud himself

He made shit up about non-existent covens he was initiated into in order to hide the fact that a lot of the ritual of Gardnerian Wicca was ripped off from the Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn and other ceremonial magic traditions and then given a Neo-Pagan veneer.

I was into Wicca for a while in high school until I learned about the fraudulent roots of it, and how Wicca popularizers like Silver RavenWolf and DJ Conway spew BS. "Celtic Shamanism" my rear end!

[Exultant Democracy]

41. All religions use BS to fleece their flock, the sheep get shorn as it was and always shall be

as long as people give up critical thinking and worship absurdity.

[snooper2]

46. Every preacher, imam, rabbi, every woo crackpot...all of them..

are guilty of the same "sins"


Of course, he was just mis-reading the bible...each person's "religion, woo-of-choice" is the correct version :eyes:

[RoadRage]

53. Sorry.. but this is Darwinism at its finest...

If you are:

1. Dumb enough to believe some random guys 'prediction' even when millions more debunk it AND

2. Give MONEY to said random guy and

3. Quit your job and

4. Give away all of your worldly possesions...

Then you deserve what you get. I'm sorry - but at some point, people need to stop, and think for themselves. If some lawyer goes in and gets these people their money back - then what reason do others have to not make the same idiotic mistake as well?

Is the Camping guy a Class A swindler? You Betcha! Is he an ass, jerk, etc? Totally. But, in the US - that's not illegal. Dumb people make other people rich in this country every single second. You can't create laws to protect stupid people from themselves.

[marions ghost]

57. Fraud is illegal

it seems like a clear case to me :shrug:

People deserve protection under the law for swindling under the guise of religion. If enough people would sue they would have a case.

[RoadRage]

67. What Religion DOESN'T Swindle?

The Catholic Church? (Here.. let's give a few zillion dollars to house & hide pedophile priests). Many nutball churches are out there... who gets to decide what is "legit" and what is "illigit"? People gave money to this church to further spread the word of this supposed "church". That's what many perisioners do weekly. Sometimes churches give money to the poor.. others put up bulliten boards all over to promote a "message".

It's not fraud. IMO some options are far better then others (charity, etc.) - but I like living in a country where I can believe in a flying turtle God if I so choose. Even if no one else believes it - I can give my money to the church of the flying turtle god.

[marions ghost]

70. I compare it more to

business fraud.

Linking it to established churches who have happy long term parishioners is different, I think you really can see that.

If you support this guy being able to do this--then you must support all types of fraud I guess.

[RoadRage]

71. "If you support this guy being able to do this--then you must support all types of fraud I guess"

First of all... I don't "support" it. I think he's a slimebag.

But, I also don't call it "Fraud". He stated that he thought the world was going to come to an end.. and asked for money. People were IDIOTS and gave it to him.

It's not like he was calling up saying "Hi, my name is Joe and i'm asking for donations for the American Red Cross Disaster Relief Efforts, please send money to help us out".. then took the cash and put it in his pocket.

He took money from people who believed what he was saying. What he was saying was nuts. I don't call that Fraud - I call it stupid people wanting to believe stupid things. This clown didn't represent himself to be anything other then a nutjob.. yet many other nutjobs still gave him money. That's THEIR fault.

If you start legislating stupidity - you have to start covering everything.. where does it end?

[marions ghost]

74. you have to cover everything

where people say they were victims of fraud. People aren't necessarily nut jobs who are victims of scams. In fact, being victims of fraud or white collar crimes is correlated with intelligence. (You should be able to find some studies on that. I did.)

What I'm saying is if you don't support people's right to allege fraud in this case, then you would likely negate many other allegations of fraud/white collar crime. You think that because you are smart, others should be so smart. But they aren't. And they are victims of crimes every day--so they deserve restitution if they have legal access (often they don't). You wouldn't believe what goes on that I don't think you would agree with. Hasn't living with the Bushites affected you? For example do you think the victims of bad mortgage lending practices deserve what they got?

Sometimes you have to allow for things to be called fraud that you personally might not have fallen for.

[RoadRage]

80. But where do you draw the line?

What if someone tells you that an investment is good, and it turns out not to be good. Do you just get to scream "Fraud" because you lost money? (I'm not talking a Ponzi scheme or something that IS illegal - i'm talking about a normal investment that didn't pan out).

My point is there are 2 sides to this - and if you allow anyone to scream "Fraud" and get their money back everytime they lose money over a bad deal - then no deal stands, ever. That's part of the risk...

Dude said the end of the world was coming on May 21st and asked (did not force) for money. If you gave him the money, you were in turn hoping to perhaps "buy" yourself some "salvation". It was a risk. You give your money away to save yourself, and the end of the world doesn't come - you're stuck on earth with no money.

[marions ghost]

81. Bottom line

is he a criminal or not? (A white collar criminal). 70 million under false pretenses.

I say he is a criminal. Others may differ but I think it's partly because we have become so used to white collar criminals getting away with stuff. So what is he then--a savvy businessman?

Suite crime is never prosecuted like street crime is...

[struggle4progress]

9. Unlikely, I think, since donations were voluntary

[Crazy Dave]

10. I listened to one show once I heard about it and you are right

There were no "since you won't need money anymore send it to me" requests.

[Heavy Metal Dude]

13. Did he take a salry?

My understanding is that he did not take a salary. It sounded like he used much of the donation money to finance the May 21st advertising campaign.

[bobburgster]

16. No. they would rather prosecute the poor and defenseless. n/t

[mzteris]

17. they should all sue him

and his "business" and all his business partners. Especially that billboard company that bilked people out of hundreds of thousands.

[cleanhippie]

39. What for?

[mzteris]

86. scam artist, con artist.

How much money did he make off this, eh?

[onenote]

64. because throwing good money after bad would help them?

You know how much the devoted followers of Jim Bakker got out of their attempts to sue him? Less than $7 per person. The lawyers did okay, though.

[mzteris]

87. I hope the old bastard goes to jail.

The only good to come out of this is it brings the whole religious thing open to more ridicule and hopefully keeps more people from giving their hard earned money away to the grifters who call themselves "preachers".

[Puregonzo1188]

18. Did he really scam people?

Apparently he sold off his TV and radio stations and his own money into the advertising campaign as well.

I mean people gave the money to the advertising campaign--did all of it go there? If it did and Camping didn't profit in anyway than I'm not sure you can say it's a scam nonetheless sue him.

[Withywindle]

20. Agreed, he's a con man.

No better than anyone else who ran a long con to get vulnerable people to trust him and give up their savings.

[provis99]

22. what scam?

He didn't promise his followers that THEY would be raptured; he just said the rapture was coming.

[Jim Lane]

25. No basis for prosecution -- or even for denying a tax deduction.

I can't readily envision a successful criminal prosecution or private civil action against Camping. One element of fraud is that the person making the allegedly fraudulent statement knew that it was false. Unless someone has a smoking-gun email from Camping ("Wow, I can't believe how many of these pigeons are falling for my Rapture scam"), how would you prove this?

It gets worse. Assuming that Camping dotted the i's and crossed the t's for 501(c)(3) status, anyone who donated to him would be able to take a tax deduction for the donation. A charitable organization under section 501(c)(3) is prohibited from endorsing political candidates but is not prohibited from espousing theological views, even views that the majority of people consider ridiculous.

[Nye Bevan]

27. Really? Some nut claims the world is ending, and when it doesn't, you send him to jail?

I think he is probably protected by the First Amendment.

[Skidmore]

32. This is the second time he's done this.

[Nye Bevan]

33. Really? Well fool everyone once, shame on him..... you know the rest (nt)

[The Straight Story]

29. prosecute him when you do the folks in congress for believing in big banks/etc

How many hundreds of billions did we give them/loan then without a credit check/etc because they said the end was near if we did not?

[CBGLuthier]

31. Bullshit

More stupid bullshit. Prove he gained one fucking thing.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

35. Is he any worse than Pat Robertson?

who has predicted the end on two occasions, as well as other prophecies, such as killer hurricanes and terrorist attacks on the U.S. mainland

and clearchannel, who happily took the money for his billboards, deserves some criticism here as well

[cleanhippie]

37. For what? He did nothing that any other preacher or priest does on a daily basis.

Unless you are suggesting that ALL religion is a scam.....

[Stand and Fight]

40. Unrecommended.

Prosecute him for what? That people are idiots and believed his prediction, MADE THE CHOICE to donate or give up their money and property? No. See -- this is one of my problems with some folks. There is such a thing as personal accountability and responsibility. Harold Camping made a prediction -- whether he believed it or not is irrelevant -- and people CHOSE to believe said prediction. Ultimately, these people made a decision that many of us made upon hearing this. Let's suppose he had been right for a second and the rapture did happen. Would you then want to prosecute him for NOT making his point loudly enough? No. It would have been your choice to not believe him, as you obviously do in this instance. So, your wide-eyed cry for his prosecution is nothing more than groundless bullshit.

[cleanhippie]

42. +1

[liberalhistorian]

44. Sorry, but what scam? No one was forced at gunpoint to

give up their jobs, savings, lives, etc., they all did it of their own free will. And, as a Christian myself, I know that scripture is very clear that no one knows the date and time of the end and there is no biblical "code" to be deciphered that will show the exact time and date. Also, he had claimed this back in 1993, only to say, when it, of course, didn't happen, that some of the "events" that God had "told him about" in order to decipher the "code" (non-existent!) hadn't yet happened. Anyone stupid enough to actually believe him and take steps accordingly, it's on THEM. PERIOD.

And, legally speaking, there's no way to actually legally prove that he knew he was running a scam and lied deliberately. It appears to me that he was misguided and disturbed enough to actually believe what he was saying was the truth. And, again, he did not force anyone to believe him.

[snooper2]

48. I'd be bitter to, how much money did he get from you?

:rofl:

[kick-ass-bob]

50. If he keeps it for himself, all I have to say is...

Jim and Tammy Faye Baker redux.

These are identical except maybe in dollar amount.

[onenote]

62. not the same as Jim and Tammy Faye

Bakker went to jail for fraud because he sold "lifetime memberships" in his theme park that he could not, and never intended to, honor. Big difference. Camping's followers weren't "sold" anything or promised anything in return for their contributions.

[slackmaster]

51. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom to do stupid things

All hard for some people to swallow.

[Shadehawk]

54. tough luck.

Unfortunately mister camping has done nothing wrong, despite my wishing for the contrary its not illegal to be stupid. camping was an idiot who believed he'd found a magic formula to determine dooms day, hi followers were idiots with expendable income and no rational insight, and now they're all hurting because the rapture didn't happen, unfortunate? yes. illegal? no. just very....very....stupid, and the most unbelievable part is that these people all profess to being die hard religious people, yet none of them seemed to recall the bible verse that none shall know the time of the ending, not man not even jesus, just big G and hes not telling.

[Dreamer Tatum]

55. Translation: punish a religious person for being stupid.

"...throw him in jail for the rest of his life."

Along with a lot of other religious people, I'm sure.

[MindPilot]

63. We punish stupidity all the time...why should religion be the exception?

Drunk driving is stupid and you go to jail for it.

[WinkyDink]

76. It's not Camping who was the stupid one. ;-)

[MindPilot]

77. That was kinda the point....

:P

[La Lioness Priyanka]

58. no. unless we can prove he did more than just sell a lie, which anyway

all religions do.

its just that dead people cant come back to say, woopsies, there was no heaven

[NoodleyAppendage]

59. Dogma + Con-artists + Fearful People + Ignorance = Religion

While the Camping thing sucks, it's not a crime to convince the stupid and impressionable to flush their money down the toilet. It's done all the time. It's called tithing.

J

[marions ghost]

60. This guy Ray (sweat lodge) is in trouble

because he caused deaths. Camping should be in just as much trouble. To strip people of their
life savings and everything they own--THIS is NOT just as egregious? For many the stress will kill them. There will be suicides as well.

-----------
CAMP VERDE, Ariz., March 2 (UPI) -- Self-help guru James Arthur Ray told participants in an Arizona sweat lodge ceremony they would feel like they were going to die, a tape at his trial revealed.

The prosecution used Ray's own voice to lay out their manslaughter case against him for the deaths of three people after a sweat lodge ceremony he conducted in October 2009, The Arizona Republic in Phoenix reported.

"There's no sweat lodge like my sweat lodge," Ray said on the tape playing in court Tuesday. "You'll feel like you're going to die. I guarantee that." (snip)_

Ray, 53, is a self-realization book author and motivational speaker who used New Age beliefs to inspire his clients to physical, emotional and financial well-being.

He faces as long as 30 years in prison if convicted on all three manslaughter counts for the deaths of Lizbeth Neuman, 49, of Minnesota, Kirby Brown, 38, of New York and James Shore, 40 of Wisconsin.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/03/02/Gurus-words-turned-against-him-at-trial/UPI-76211299072073/#ixzz1NBscHF4o

[jp11]

66. It is not the same Ray was there and was trusted to administor and monitor the procedure

he had a relationship with those people, he saw them, he met with them, took their money etc. The people who LISTENED to a radio show or READ a website had no such relationship. Nothing spoken or written in a one sided medium 'stripped' people of their savings or lives, they chose to do that based on what was said by a radio host and self acclaimed bible interpreter.

If this guy is guilty because of what he said so is every person who's ever said people are going to hell, will burn there etc for not doing this or that OR if you've ever done X. Along with the authors of any book, document, video, comic, song, etc that could possibly be seen by any to be a warning of something bad that they then must kill themselves, others, sell their possessions, etc.

[marions ghost]

69. Not really

when the people sent their money, they thought they had a relationship. Sad but true in America where people often feel people online or on the radio are speaking to them.

If the people that were scammed of $70 million bring a lawsuit, then he could be found guilty of fraud. If they put up with it, then it's the same as people who are victims of more minor fraud who never get any justice. In either case, your attitude often stops people from seeking the restitution they deserve.

[jp11]

79. It is sad but a relationship a person imagines doesn't make it so and therefore

doesn't entitle them to the realistic perception that one existed which is what is used, I'm fairly sure, to deal with these things legally. You can't claim because YOU felt there was a connection, that most reasonable people wouldn't agree with, YOU were duped or somehow coerced.

The final issue here is if you give your money away you aren't entitled to get anything for it, only if you give it away to someone/thing advertising a purpose or use falsely that it is going to be used in a certain way, which AFAIK he didn't do.

[MindPilot]

61. Sue for deliberate infliction of emotional distress.

He got our hopes up by promising the entire world that all the righteous Christians would leave Saturday night. I woke up Sunday morning very disappointed to find nothing had changed.

[leeroysphitz]

65. What was his angle? What did he offer these people in exchange for their life savings?

[LiberalAndProud]

68. Victims of con artists have little legal recourse.

"I have a huge inheritance coming to me any day now honey, but it's tied up in the courts and I'm strapped for cash. I'll pay you back as soon as the money comes through."

Multiple loans later, the scamee wises up. She's now smarter but much poorer than she was when the con man first came into her life. And the con man is free to move on to the next victim. There are no laws against it. Law enforcement can do nothing to bring the con to a close. It goes on every day. This is no different. Lying for cash is a lucrative way of life for a lot of people.

[marions ghost]

82. And that is where the problem is

the system allows it. And people have no idea how vulnerable each and every one of us is, because if it does happen, there is no real legal recourse. And with the corporates sticking it to us from the top, will things ever change?

[Marr]

72. If his victims have a legal case to make, they should make it.

I doubt they have one, however. People are free to give their money to whomever they choose, and fools often choose religious hucksters.

[GreenStormCloud]

73. You would have some serious First Amendment problems with that. N/T

[WinkyDink]

75. Maybe we need to teach "Elmer Gantry" in school. P.S. When do we get to prosecute Bush & Cheney?

Those known-to-be-phantom WMD's caused immeasurably more death, destruction, and despair.

[Codeine]

78. Fuck that. Stupid people deserve it. nt

[marions ghost]

84. Like us?

We who have been screwed by the Rethuglicans? Are we stoopid? No, but we sure have damn well been screwed. People who got screwed by Bernie Madoff--are they stoopid?

What's the diff? It's just another kind of white collar crime. All in a day's work, right?

In a country that is so corrupt, how can you split hairs?

[yella_dawg]

85. Stupidity

Self-punishing crime.